No Contradiction in Teachings of Srila Prabhupada on the Fall of the Jiva

mahak · January 11, 2008

he blows a futile horn.

or

nothing up to that point has been left unresolved

or

its doom alont that counts

give me shelter from the storm

mahak

Sarva gattah · January 11, 2008

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by CCC

Is it possible to falldown from the spiritual world (Vaikuntha) ? NO

Can I come by my free will to the material world from Vaikuntha or Goloka? YES

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Both statements are true and correct

BALAVIDYA DASA - And this means that this enviousness does not occur in Goloka, whether one falls or dreams that they fall.

It is due to the miss use of one's free will to attempt be master instead of servant. Being marginal (tatastha s'akti) means one can choose the perpetual devotional reality of Vaikuntha, or the activate the baddha jiva aspect of their marginal identity and enter the dreams of Maha Vishnu in His mahat tattva creation. We are not like the borge (star trek) where we are assimulated into Krishna's Goloka or Vishnu's Vaikuntha. There is always free will and most (75%) never choose to seek out their imaginary world in the mahat tattva like us fools have done.

Shakti-Fan · January 12, 2008

There is always free will and most (75%) never choose to seek out their imaginary world in the mahat tattva like us fools have done.

75% of the creation is the spiritual world and 25% is the material world. These figures DO NOT refer to the percentages of jivas who choose to reject Krsna's service and those who accept it.

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.10, From the Purport,

As quoted by Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī, we can know from the Nārada-pañcarātra that the transcendental world or Vaikuṇṭha atmosphere is enriched with transcendental qualities. These transcendental qualities, as revealed through the devotional service of the Lord, are distinct from the mundane qualities of ignorance, passion and goodness. Such qualities are not attainable by the nondevotee class of men. In the Padma Purāṇa, Uttara-khaṇḍa, it is stated that beyond the one-fourth part of God's creation is the three-fourths manifestation. The marginal line between the material manifestation and the spiritual manifestation is the Virajā River, and beyond the Virajā, which is a transcendental current flowing from the perspiration of the body of the Lord, there is the three-fourths manifestation of God's creation. This part is eternal, everlasting, without deterioration, and unlimited, and it contains the highest perfectional stage of living conditions. In the Sāńkhya-kaumudī it is stated that unalloyed goodness or transcendence is just opposite to the material modes. All living entities there are eternally associated without any break, and the Lord is the chief and prime entity. In the Āgama Purāṇas also, the transcendental abode is described as follows: The associated members there are free to go everywhere within the creation of the Lord, and there is no limit to such creation, particularly in the region of the three-fourths magnitude. Since the nature of that region is unlimited, there is no history of such association, nor is there end of it.

We have been told by the acaryas that 90% of all jivas never come to the material world, so that leaves 10% who become fallen. I cannot at present find the reference for this, but I believe it's in the writings of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur.

Beggar · January 12, 2008

Wait a minute, near the end of that purport, look at this:

"In the Sāńkhya-kaumudī it is stated that unalloyed goodness or transcendence is just opposite to the material modes. All living entities there are eternally associated without any break, and the Lord is the chief and prime entity."

I know Sarva gattah is going to say that they are just dreaming that there is a break in their association with the Lord. But then why would such a thing be stated in the first place? It wouldn't make any sense to write such a thing. This proves that your "dreamer" theory is itself a dream.

CCC · January 12, 2008

We have been told by the acaryas that 90% of all jivas never come to the material world, so that leaves 10% who become fallen. I cannot at present find the reference for this, but I believe it's in the writings of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur.

interesting, try to quote this please if you can or want

anyway that 10% percent is a very big number, endless

Vigraha · January 12, 2008

Wait a minute, near the end of that purport, look at this:
"In the Sāńkhya-kaumudī it is stated that unalloyed goodness or transcendence is just opposite to the material modes. All living entities there are eternally associated without any break, and the Lord is the chief and prime entity."

I know Sarva gattah is going to say that they are just dreaming that there is a break in their association with the Lord. But then why would such a thing be stated in the first place? .

Free will

interesting, try to quote this please if you can or want

anyway that 10% percent is a very big number, endless

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by CCC

Is it possible to falldown from the spiritual world (Vaikuntha) ? NO

Can I come by my free will to the material world from Vaikuntha or Goloka? YES

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Beggar · January 12, 2008

Is it possible to falldown from the spiritual world (Vaikuntha) ? NO
Can I come by my free will to the material world from Vaikuntha or Goloka? YES

Communist Propaganda left over from the Soviet Era!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

suchandra · January 12, 2008

Communist Propaganda left over from the Soviet Era!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is it possible to falldown from the spiritual world (Vaikuntha) ? NO
Can I come by my free will to the material world from Vaikuntha or Goloka? YES

I understand this was meant to point out that the jivas always have a free will and one meaning of free will is the option to act wrongly.

wikipedia:

The principle of free will has religious, ethical, and scientific implications. For example, in the religious realm, free will may imply that an omnipotent divinity does not assert its power over individual will and choices. In ethics, it may imply that individuals can be held morally accountable for their actions. In the scientific realm, it may imply that the actions of the body, including the brain and the mind, are not wholly determined by physical causality. The question of free will has been a central issue since the beginning of philosophical thought.

Prajāpati: "Krishna has given us free will to choose or reject the godly life. Should the government take away that free will of whether they choose to…

Prabhupāda: Krishna says He has given free will, but His personal advice is: “I am now talking to you the most confidential words.” Sarva- guhyatamam. “You stop your so-called free will. Just surrender to Me.” This is the most confidential. “If you surrender to Me, that is good for you. But if you go on keeping your free will you’ll not be happy.” There is also free will. When you come to the Krishna platform you serve Krishna with free will, not that you become a stone. There is free will. Just like our devotees they are dressing Krishna nicely, is there no free will? They are cooking for Krishna. Is there no free will? The free will is there. The Māyāvādī philosopher says, the Buddha philosopher says, that “Stop this free will, and then you become happy.” But our proposition is not to stop free will but purify free will. Purify. Not stop these eyes. Just if it is suffering from cataract, cure that cataract. Keep the eyes. And their proposition, “Get out these eyes and throw it. Then there will be no more seeing what is right and wrong.” That is their proposition. Nirviśeṣa-vādī. Nirviśeṣa means no speciality, no varieties. That is nirviśeṣa. And śūnya, zero. When it is zero, then there is no question of right and wrong. So our philosophy is not that."

Morning Walk Conversation

with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

December 13, 1973, Los Angeles

Hayagrīva: George Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel sees the religion of India as a religion in which man is handed laws from a God who is exterior to man, from a will that is entirely foreign to man. And he sees this to be opposed to what he considers to be a more advanced religion, in which the individual soul is lifted to the supernatural through the use of reason, internal sanction or subjective confirmation. In other words, he sees the Indian religion as being blind following of an exterior will. He says that man can only attain God through the exercise of his own free will.

Prabhupāda: Then why the animals cannot? Animal is given complete free will.

Hayagrīva: He says animals have no will.

Prabhupāda: That is another foolishness. If he has no will, why he goes to different direction?

Hayagrīva: He says that animals have no right to life because they have no will.

Prabhupāda: Just see. What is the symptom of life? First of all settle up, how do you know? We can distinguish that this table has no life, that a small ant on the table there is life. How you distinguish, that here is life, there is no life? Then what is the symptom of life? If the symptom of life is there in animal, there is life. Why they will say there is no life? What is the philosophy? There is life. He is eating; you are eating. He is sleeping; you are sleeping. He is having sex; you are having sex. He is also afraid of enemy; you are also afraid. Then why do you say that you have life, he has no life? What is the symptom of life? This is the primary symptom of life. So if he has got these primary symptoms of life, how do you say he has no life? That means you have no intelligence even.

Philosophy Discussions

with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda George Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel

HEGEL.HAY

gHari · January 12, 2008

From http://education./reference/dictionary/entry/paradox

par·a·dox (pr-dks) KEY

NOUN:

A seemingly contradictory statement that may nonetheless be true: the paradox that standing is more tiring than walking.
One exhibiting inexplicable or contradictory aspects: "The silence of midnight, to speak truly, though apparently a paradox, rung in my ears" (Mary Shelley).
An assertion that is essentially self-contradictory, though based on a valid deduction from acceptable premises.
A statement contrary to received opinion.

mahak · January 12, 2008

They are the norm, not the exception. Life itself is a paradox.

There is no rise and fall at all, this is the perversion of the mind, mental phantasmagoria. So those who say we fell, maybe influenced too much my childrens bible stories, these folks are no more or less dillusional than those who insist that we can rise to the platform of actually being a cowherd hangin with Mr. K.

We are who we are, and as the initial instruction by Prabhupada insists (initiation by the way, these initial instructions on the methodology and the reasoniong for taking up this sadhana bhakti procewss), "somehow or other we have become illusioned by maya." Sounds like a temporary spell, not really that unlike what jaya and vijaya agreed to when they incarnated as Hiranyakasipu, Hiranyaksa, Ravana, Kamsa, Jagai and Madhai. Is this a fall down?, Some may insist that these were great demons, and while surely these activities performed by jaya and Vijaya while in this realm may be truely demoniac, they are nonetheless nitya siddha spiritual associates of the Supreme Lord. As doorkeepers for narayana, they were bored, therefore, the kumaras tricked them into brutal service in the rasa of chivalry, and the weapons they used against Krsna were accepted equally as the kisses from the damsels of Vraja.

Jaya and Vijaya did not fall, they actually increased their service of the pleasure of the chivalrous Lords Nrsmha, Viraha, Rama, Krsna, lords nityananda and sri Chaitanya mahaprabhu. The stories of their demoniac activities of opposing the Lord are stories for us to guide us away from similar behavior, but they should never bee seen as anyone other than intimate associates of the Lord. They were influenced by Yogamaya, not mahamaya.

Which brings up to paradoxical multidimensional (and as of today, theoretical) physics. Simultaneous realities. Some cringe, sayin "mahaksadasa is at it again with his drug induced 60s hippie speculations". So I gotta cite examples in our literature of such simultaneous reality.

The poor brahmana waqs too dirty to go into a temple, he had no transportation. He had no gold ghee lamps. But where did the blisters on his fingers come from if there was not a paradoxical other dimension he was operating from? This is a most important story that we all should revisit from time to time, just to experiance transcendence.

Srila Prabhupada has given us a portal to another dimension, one where we can actually act as nitya siddha. No, we are still old, feeble, cleaning toilets and polishing gravestones, but simultaneously, we are sitting on the banks of the hidden Crystal Lake hearing Sri Sanjaya speak Bhagavad Gita to the vanquished and remorseful Sri Duryodhana. We are simultaneously placing tulasi buds in the hands of Srimati Radharani to place at the feet of Krsna while we are simultaneously trying to find a tow truck that can make it up the muddy road to get the beater oldsmobile to the mechanic.

The guy pushing metal cars that dont run anymore didnt fall from anywhere, and the guy intimately assisting Sri Sri Radha Krsna in their pastimes did not rise up from a perverted position. Its the same person, a paradox per gHaris #4 above.

So, we can disregard this issue altogether as a non issue. Multidimensional physics is beyond theory, is a fact of puranic literature. That one cannot see clearly the other dimension while being so attached to the related to dimension is of no copnsequence to reality.

Okay, carry on. gHari is the only one making sense here. hare krsna (see, that came from the other dimension, I just proved what the theoretical physicists are spending soo much on). ys in cooperation, mahaksadasa

source: "As I have explained on the cover of the record album...." Multidimensional physics. String theory, multiverse, simultaneous reality, time travel, using Death herself as a means to step into the car (Puskara) that doesnt break down, ala Dhruva Maharaja.

Sarva gattah · January 12, 2008

Srila Prabhupada has given us a portal to another dimension,

one where we can actually act as nitya siddha.

No, we are still old, feeble,

cleaning toilets and polishing gravestones,

but simultaneously, we are sitting on the banks

of the hidden Crystal Lake hearing Sri Sanjaya speak

Bhagavad Gita to the vanquished and

remorseful Sri Duryodhana.

We are simultaneously placing tulasi buds

in the hands of Srimati Radharani to place at

the feet of Krsna while we are simultaneously

trying to find a tow truck that can make it up

the muddy road to get the beater

oldsmobile to the mechanic.

The guy pushing metal cars that don't run

anymore didn't fall from anywhere,

and the guy intimately assisting Sri Sri Radha Krsna

in their pastimes did not rise up from a perverted position.

It's the same person.

The new enlightened poetry of the 21st Century.

mahak · January 13, 2008

Haribol. I always mention "the cover of the recorde album" because this production is the first Srila Prabhupada class given to the west at large. It is a classical answer to this controversy, and his teachings of other dimensions, other "strata", is quite clear. Please examine the following for the TRUE STORY:

"As explained on the cover of the record album, this transcendental vibration--by chanting of Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare--is the sublime method for reviving our Krsna consciousness. As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our asociation with matter since time immemorial, our consciousness is now poluted by material atmosphere. In this polluted concept of life, we are all trying to exploit the resources of material nature, but actually we are becoming more and more entangled in our complexities. This illusion is called maya, or hard struggle for existence over the stringent laws of material nature. This illusory struggle against the material nature can at once be stopped by revival of our Krsna consciousness.

Krsna consciousness is not an artificial imposition on the mind. This consciousness is the original energy of the living entity. When we hear the transcendental vibration, this consciousness is revived. And the process is recommended by authorities for this age. By practical experience also, we can perceive that by chanting this maha-mantra, or the Great Chanting for Deliverance, one can at once feel transcendental ecstasy from the spiritual stratum. When one is factually on the plane of spiritual understanding, surpassing the stages of sense, mind and intelligence, one is situated on the transcendental plane. This chanting of Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare is directly enacted from the spiritual platform, surpassing all lower states of consciousness--namely sensual, mental and intellectual. There is no need of understanding the language of the mantra, nor is there any need of mental speculation nor any intellectual adjustment for chanting this maha-mantra. It springs automatically from the spiritual platform, and as such, anyone can take part in this transcendental sound vibration, without any previous qualification, and dance in ecstasy.

We have seen it practically. Even a child can take part in the chanting, or even a dog can take part in it. The chanting should be heard, however, from the lips of a pure devotee of the Lord, so that immediate effect can be achieved. As far as possible, chanting from the lips of a nondevotee should be avoided, as much as milk touched by the lips of a serpent causes poisonous effect.

The word Hara is a form of addressing the energy of the Lord. Both Krsna and Rama are forms of addressing directly the Lord, and they mean " the highest pleasure, eternal." Hara is the supreme pleasure potency of the Lord. This potency, when addressed are Hare, helps us in reaching the Supreme Lord.

The material energy, called as maya, is also one of the multipotencies of the Lord, as much as we are also marginal potency of the Lord. The living entities are described as superior energy than matter. When the superior energy is in contact with inferior energy, it becomes an incompatible situation. But when the supreme marginal potency is in contact with the spiritual potency, Hara,it becomes the happy, normal condition of the living entity.

The three words, namely Hara, Krsna and Rama, are transcendental seeds of the maha-mantra, and the chanting is a spiritual call for the Lord and His internal energy, Hara, for giving protection to the conditioned soul. The chanting is exactly like a genuine cry by the chold for the mother. Mother Hara helps in achieving the grace of the supreme father, Hari, or Krsna, and the Lord reveals Himself to such a sincere devotee.

No other means, therefore, of spiritual realization is as effective in this age, as chanting the maha-mantra, Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare/ Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare."

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

So, when the cosmos are viewed as starta, dimensions, this all is so much easier. As marginal potency, we have ability to be conditioned by inferior or superior forces, its all in the consciousness of which layer we choose to live in.

hare krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

Beggar · January 14, 2008

Judge For Yourself -- Srila Prabhupada on the Jiva Issue BY: SUNANDA DAS (ACBSP)

Jan 13, NEW YORK (SUN) — As we all know, Srila Prabhupada said everything is in his books. We also know he said his books would be the lawbooks for mankind for the next 10,000 years. We also know that in any forum of discussion, at least in ISKCON, his books, including legal documents for specific purposes, rate as the highest level of authority concerning the siddhanta of our disciplic succession, with lectures, letters and conversations following suit in that order.

Over the last three years I have re-read the entire Srimad Bhagavatam, including Krsna Book, with particular attention to seeing what Srila Prabhupada, in his purports, had to say about the fall of the jiva, one way or the other. And, while many of the quotes below are familiar to those who have studied this topic, many may be new. However, when read as a whole, they take on a form of their own, one confirming the other in an almost check and balance fashion that impresses the reader with an undeniable impression of the truth in this matter. And although some of the quotes could be interpreted either way on their own, when read in conjunction with the others, the need for interpretation, and all misunderstanding disappears. A transcendental light comes on in your head that clears away the ignorance.

I too, as a new devotee, was taught that we fell from the abode of the Lord and our particular inherent rasa with him due to envy. For years I never questioned that. I also understood that it really didn’t matter how I got here, the point was to get out. So I never thought much about it. I just followed orders and worked hard for Srila Prabhupada and Krsna. I can’t complain about that. They were the best days of my life. But there comes a point in your devotional life where it’s really important and helpful to understand the nuances of our disciplic siddhanta in detail. Without a clear understanding we might find ourselves preaching incorrectly and that would certainly be a disservice. And with all the deviations of various sorts going on nowadays it seems even more important that we need to have a solid grasp of the conclusions of our siddhanta as well as the instructions of Srila Prabhupada.

The quotes below are in chronological order starting with the First Canto of Srimad Bhagavatam and represent everything that I could find related to the issue. For all practical purposes, no stone was left unturned. There are quite a few so sit back, relax and read to your heart’s content. The concluding quote is taken from Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati’s article, “Brahmana and Vaishnava”. It speaks for itself.

So His expansions of various forms which take place via the internal energies are superior forms, whereas the expansions which take place via the external energies are inferior forms. The living entities are also His expansions. The living entities who are expanded by His internal potency are eternally liberated persons, whereas those who are expanded in terms of the material energies are eternally conditioned souls. (1.2.28-29)

As we have discussed several times, there are two types of living entities. Most of them are ever liberated, or nitya-muktas, while some of them are ever conditioned. The ever-conditioned souls are apt to develop a mentality of lording over the material nature, and therefore the material cosmic creation is manifested to give the ever-conditioned souls two kinds of facilities. (1.10.22)

The destination of the devotee (the bhagavata) is to enter into one of the Vaikuntha planets, in each of which the Personality of Godhead, in His unlimited personal expansions, enjoys Himself in the association of unlimited numbers of pure devotee associates. The conditioned souls in the material world, after gaining emancipation by devotional service, are promoted to these planets. But the number of ever-liberated souls is far, far greater than the number of conditioned souls in the material world, and the ever-liberated souls in the Vaikuntha planets never care to visit this miserable material world. (2.2.31)

Such planets, being spiritual, are in fact transcendental to the material modes; therefore they are constituted in the mode of unalloyed goodness only. The conception of spiritual bliss (brahmananda) is fully present in those planets. Each of them is eternal, indestructible and free from all kinds of inebrieties experienced in the material world. Each of them is self-illuminating and more powerfully dazzling than (if we can imagine) the total sunshine of millions of mundane suns. The inhabitants of those planets are liberated from birth, death, old age and diseases and have full knowledge of everything; they are all godly and free from all sorts of material hankerings. They have nothing to do there except to render transcendental loving service to the Supreme Lord Narayana, who is the predominating Deity of such Vaikuntha planets…The Lord and His eternal servitors in the transcendental kingdom all have eternal forms which are auspicious, infallible, spiritual and eternally youthful. In other words, there is no birth, death, old age and disease. That eternal land is full of transcendental enjoyment and full of beauty and bliss. This very fact is also corroborated in this verse of Srimad-Bhagavatam, and the transcendental nature is described as amåta. As described in the Vedas, the Supreme Lord is the Lord of immortality, or in other words, the Lord is immortal, and because He is the Lord of immortality He can award immortality to His devotees. In the Bhagavad Gita (8.16) the Lord also assures that whoever may go to His abode of immortality shall never return to this mortal land of threefold miseries. (2.6.18)

The living entities, as distinguished from incognizant matter, may be qualitatively equal to the Lord in cognizance, but the living entity can never be equal to the Lord in full knowledge of past, present and future. And because the living entity is partially cognizant, he is therefore sometimes forgetful of his own identity. This forgetfulness is specifically manifested in the field of the ekapad-vibhuti of the Lord, or in the material world, but in the tripad-vibhuti field of actions, or in the spiritual world, there is no forgetfulness by the living entities, who are free from all kinds of contaminations resulting from the forgetful state of existence. (2.6.21)

In the liberated state of affairs, the full-fledged affection for the Lord is awakened. As such, there is an unlimited flow of everlasting happiness, without the fear of its being broken as we have experienced here in the material world. The relationship with the Lord is never broken; thus there is no grief and no fear…All the senses, both of the Lord and of the devotees, are without material contamination. They are so because they are beyond the material cause and effects, as clearly mentioned herein (sad-asatau param). The illusory, material energy cannot work there, being ashamed before the Lord and His transcendental devotees. (2.7.47)

The progressive devotee of the Lord must inquire from the bona fide spiritual master how living entities merged in the body of the Lord again come back at the time of creation. There are two kinds of living entities. There are the ever-liberated, unconditioned living beings as well as the ever-conditioned living beings. (2.8.22)

The external energy is controlled by the Lord, and the living entities are controlled by the external energy-by the will of the Lord. Therefore, although the living entity is purely conscious in his pure state, he is subordinate to the will of the Lord in being influenced by the external energy of the Lord…Now the next question automatically made will be why the Lord influences the living entity to such consciousness and forgetfulness. The answer is that the Lord clearly wishes that every living entity be in his pure consciousness as a part and parcel of the Lord and thus be engaged in the loving service of the Lord as he is constitutionally made; but because the living entity is partially independent also, he may not be willing to serve the Lord, but may try to become as independent as the Lord is…In his pure consciousness, however, there is no such misconceived dream, and in that pure conscious state the living entity does not forget that he is never the Lord, but that he is eternally the servitor of the Lord in transcendental love. (2.9.1)

As we have discussed several times, there are two types of living entities. Most of them are ever liberated, or nitya-muktas, while some of them are ever conditioned. The ever-conditioned souls are apt to develop a mentality of lording over the material nature, and therefore the material cosmic creation is manifested to give the ever-conditioned souls two kinds of facilities. (2.10.6)

An eternally liberated soul is a devotee of the Lord who never forgets Him. (3.2.2)

Amongst the devotees of the Lord there are several divisions, mainly nitya-siddhas and sadhana-siddhas. The nitya-siddha devotees never fall down to the region of the material atmosphere, even though they sometimes come onto the material plane to execute the mission of the Lord. The sadhana-siddha devotees are chosen from the conditioned souls. (3.3.26)

The Lord wanted to create the cosmic manifestation to give another chance to the conditioned souls who were dormant in forgetfulness. The cosmic manifestation gives the conditioned souls a chance to go back home, back to Godhead, and that is its main purpose… The whole process is to enliven the sleeping conditioned souls to the real life of spiritual consciousness so that they may thus become as perfect as the ever-liberated souls in the Vaikunthalokas. (3.5.24)

A pure living entity in his original spiritual existence is fully conscious of his constitutional position as an eternal servitor of the Lord. All souls who are situated in such pure consciousness are liberated, and therefore they eternally live in bliss and knowledge in the various Vaikuntha planets in the spiritual sky. When the material creation is manifested, it is not meant for them. The eternally liberated souls are called nitya-muktas, and they have nothing to do with the material creation. The material creation is meant for rebellious souls who are not prepared to accept subordination under the Supreme Lord. (3.5.29)

The consciousness of the living being is always present and never changes under any circumstances, as above mentioned…How then can the living entity become forgetful of his real identity as pure spirit soul and identify with matter unless influenced by something beyond himself? The conclusion is that the living entity is influenced by the avidya potency, as confirmed in both the Visnu Purana and the beginning of Srimad-Bhagavatam. (3.7.5)

Therefore, spiritual nature is called avabodha-rasa, or avarodha-rasa. Avarodha means "that which completely nullifies." In the Transcendence there is no chance of material contact by any means. (3.9.2)

Beggar · January 14, 2008

Each and every living entity is originally attached to a particular type of transcendental service because he is eternally the servitor of the Lord. Lord Caitanya says that the living entity is eternally a servitor of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Sri Krsna. Therefore, every living entity has a particular type of service relationship with the Lord, eternally. This particular attachment is invoked by practice of regulative devotional service to the Lord, and thus the devotee becomes attached to the eternal form of the Lord, exactly like one who is already eternally attached. (3.9.11)

TRANSLATION

The Kumaras said:

In the Vaikuntha world there is complete harmony between the residents and the Supreme Personality of Godhead, just as there is complete harmony within space between the big and the small skies. Why then is there a seed of fear in this field of harmony? These two persons are dressed like inhabitants of Vaikuntha, but wherefrom can their disharmony come into existence? (3.15.33)

PURPORT

The principle of creation is that the Supreme Lord, the Personality of Godhead, is by nature joyful, and He becomes many in order to enhance His transcendental joy. The living entities like ourselves, being part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, are meant to satisfy the senses of the Lord. Thus, whenever there is a discrepancy in that harmony, immediately the living entity is entrapped by maya, or illusion.., In the Vaikuntha world there is no disharmony between the Lord and the residents. Therefore God's creation in the Vaikuntha world is perfect. There is no cause of fear. The entire kingdom of God is such a completely harmonious unit that there is no possibility of enmity. Everything there is absolute. Just as there are many physiological constructions within the body yet they work in one order for the satisfaction of the stomach, and just as in a machine there are hundreds and thousands of parts yet they run in harmony to fulfill the function of the machine, in the Vaikuntha planets the Lord is perfect, and the inhabitants also perfectly engage in the service of the Lord. (3.15.33)

From Vedic scriptures it is understood that sometimes even Brahma and Indra fall down, but a devotee in the transcendental abode of the Lord never falls. (3.15.48)

After finishing their mock fighting, both the devotee and the Lord are again associated in the spiritual planets. That is very explicitly explained here. The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (3.16.26)

This material world is not created for those who do not want to enjoy sense gratification, who constantly remain in transcendental loving service and who are eternally Krsna conscious. For them, the spiritual world is eternally existing, and they enjoy there. (3.21.20)

Sometimes it is asked how the living entity falls down from the spiritual world to the material world. Here is the answer. Unless one is elevated to the Vaikuntha planets, directly in touch with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is prone to fall down, either from the impersonal Brahman realization or from an ecstatic trance of meditation. (3.25.29)

The pure status of consciousness, or Krsna consciousness, exists in the beginning; just after creation, consciousness is not polluted. The more one becomes materially contaminated, however, the more consciousness becomes obscured. In pure consciousness one can perceive a slight reflection of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. As in clear, unagitated water, free from impurities, one can see everything clearly, so in pure consciousness, or Krsna consciousness, one can see things as they are. One can see the reflection of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and one can see his own existence as well. This state of consciousness is very pleasing, transparent and sober. In the beginning, consciousness is pure. (3.26.22)

In the beginning, from clear consciousness, or the pure state of Krsna consciousness, the first contamination sprang up. This is called false ego, or identification of the body as self. The living entity exists in the natural state of Krsna consciousness, but he has marginal independence, and this allows him to forget Krsna. Originally, pure Krsna consciousness exists, but because of misuse of marginal independence there is a chance of forgetting Krsna… From the status of pure consciousness, the false ego is born because of misuse of independence. We cannot argue about why false ego arises from pure consciousness. Factually, there is always the chance that this will happen, and therefore one has to be very careful. (3.26.23-24)

There are different kinds of individual living beings-some of them are in this material world, and some are in the spiritual world. Those who are in the spiritual world are known to be completely self-realized because on the spiritual platform the living entity is not forgetful of his service to the Lord. Therefore in the spiritual world all those who are in the devotional service of the Lord are eternally fixed, for they understand the position of the Supreme Being, as well as their individual constitution. (4.24.33)

It is clearly explained that Lord Krsna has multi-energies, which can be grouped into three: namely the external energy, the internal energy and the marginal energy. There are also different cosmic manifestations-namely the spiritual world and the material world-as well as different types of living entities. Some living entities are conditioned, and others are eternally free. The eternally free living entities are called nitya-mukta, for they never come in contact with the material energy. However, some living entities are conditioned in this material world, and thus they think themselves separated from the Supreme Lord. (4.24.61)

According to this explanation, one can clearly understand that originally the living entity was as good as the Supreme Personality of Godhead in his pure, spiritual existence. However, when the mind becomes polluted by desires for sense gratification in the material world, the living entity drops into the material conditions, as explained in this verse. Thus he begins his material existence, which means that he transmigrates from one body to another and becomes more and more entangled in material existence. (4.29.75)

This ordinary living being is of two kinds-nitya-baddha or nitya-mukta. One is eternally conditioned and the other eternally liberated. The eternally liberated living beings are in the Vaikuntha jagat, the spiritual world, and they never fall into the material world. Those in the material world are conditioned souls, nitya-baddha. The nitya-baddhas can become liberated by controlling the mind because the cause of conditioned life is the mind. (5.11.12)

All the residents of Vaikunthaloka know perfectly well that their master is Narayana, or Krsna, and that they are all His servants. They are all self-realized souls who are nitya-mukta, everlastingly liberated. Although they could conceivably declare themselves Narayana or Visnu, they never do so; they always remain Krsna conscious and serve the Lord faithfully. Such is the atmosphere of Vaikunthaloka. (6.1.34-36)

From authoritative sources it can be discerned that associates of Lord Visnu who descend from Vaikuntha do not actually fall. They come with the purpose of fulfilling the desire of the Lord, and their descent to this material world is comparable to that of the Lord. The Lord comes to this material world through the agency of His internal potency, and similarly, when a devotee or associate of the Lord descends to this material world, he does so through the action of the spiritual energy. Any pastime conducted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead is an arrangement by yogamaya, not mahamaya. Therefore it is to be understood that when Jaya and Vijaya descended to this material world, they came because there was something to be done for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuntha. (7.1.35)

The purport is that the personal associates of Lord Visnu in Vaikunthaloka are always liberated souls. Even if sometimes cursed or blessed, they are always liberated and never contaminated by the material modes of nature. Before their liberation to Vaikunthaloka they possessed material bodies, but once they come to Vaikuntha they no longer have them. Therefore even if the associates of Lord Visnu sometimes descend as if cursed, they are always liberated. (7.1.37)

Those who successfully practice bhakti-yoga go directly to the spiritual world after giving up this present body, and there they become situated in one of the Vaikuntha planets. The inhabitants of Vrndavana are all pure devotees. Their destination after quitting the body is Krsnaloka. They even surpass the Vaikuntha-lokas. The fact is that those who are always engaged in Krsna consciousness and mature, pure devotional service are given the chance, after death, to gain Krsna’s association in one of the universes within the material world…The mature devotees, who have completely executed Krsna consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where Krsna is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their first opportunity to associate with Krsna personally and directly. (Krsna Book, Ch 28)

The gopis who were gathered there had almost all been followers of the Vedas. In their previous births, during Lord Ramacandra’s advent, they had been Vedic scholars who desired the association of Lord Ramacandra in conjugal love. Ramacandra had given them the benediction that they would be present for the advent of Lord Krsna and He would fulfill their desires. During Krsna’s advent, the Vedic scholars took birth in the shape of the gopis in Vrndavana; as young gopis, they got the association of Krsna in fulfillment of their previous birth’s desire. (Krsna Book, Ch. 32)

The gopi associates of Krsna who assembled in the place where Krsna was appearing were from different groups. Most of the gopis were eternal companions of Krsna. As stated in the Brahma-Samhita, ananda-cin-maya-rasa-pratibhavitabhis: in the spiritual world the associates of Krsna, especially the gopis, are manifestations of the pleasure potency of Lord Krsna. They are expansions of Srimati Radharani. But when Krsna exhibits His transcendental pastimes within the material world in some of the universes, not only the eternal associates of Krsna come but also those who are being promoted to that status from this material world. So some of the gopis who joined Krsna’s pastimes within this material world were coming from the status of ordinary human beings. If they had been bound by fruitive action, they were fully freed from the reaction of karma by constant meditation on Krsna…The conditioned soul is subjected to birth and death, either by pious or sinful activities, but the gopis who began to meditate on Krsna transcended both positions and became purified and thus elevated to the status of the gopis already expanded by His pleasure potency. (Krsna Book, Ch. 29)

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur has written on the nature of jiva as follows:

"Before acquiring material designations, the living entity is supremely pure. Even though he is not engaged in serving the Supreme Lord, he remains situated in the neutral position of santa-rasa due to his marginal nature. Though the living entity born from the marginal potency does not at that time exhibit a taste for serving the Lord due to a lack of knowledge of self-realization, his direct propensity of serving the Supreme Lord nevertheless remains within him in a dormant state. Though the indirect propensity of material enjoyment, which is contrary to the service of the Lord, is not found in him at that time, indifference to the service of Hari and the seed of material enjoyment, which follows that state of indifference, are nevertheless present within him. The living entity, who belongs to the marginal potency, cannot remain indifferent forever by subduing both devotional and non-devotional propensities. He therefore contemplates unconstitutional activities from his marginal position. As a sleeping person dreams that he is active in the physical world without actually being involved in activities, when the dormant indifferent living entity of the marginal potency exhibits even a little apathy to the service of the Supreme Lord and situates himself in a neutral, unchanging condition for even a little time, he is infected by impersonalism. That is why the conditioned soul desires to merge in the impersonal Brahman, thus exhibiting his mind's fickle nature. But due to neglecting the eternal service of the Lord and thereby developing the quality of aversion to the Lord, he cannot remain fixed in that position. In this way aversion to the Lord breaks his concentration of mind and establishes him as the master of this world of enjoyment. (From 'Brahmana & Vaisnava')

krsna · January 14, 2008

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