No Contradiction in Teachings of Srila Prabhupada on the Fall of the Jiva

[Sarva gattah]

 

Your statement at first glance seems simple and straightforward but I think you need to go into more detail. Do you mean that nitya siddhas and nitya baddhas are the same? Do you mean that there is no such thing as shakti tattva?

What is the meaning of guru tattva, rasa tattva, dhama tattva, siva tattva?

 

The marginal living entity or jiva tattva has the free will to choose, that choice is between two characteristics of their maginal identity known as their Krishna Conscious nitya siddha body (the free state in Vaikuntha) and nitya baddha (the conditioned state in the mahat-tattva or to eventually enter the impersonal Brahmajyoti after becoming materially exhausted)

 

Guru tattva, rasa tattva, dhama tattva, siva tattva etc and the meaning of s'akti is explained by Prabhupada's books as follows -

 

tattva — real nature; CC Adi 1.108-109

tattva — in truth; CC Adi 7.108

jīva-tattva — the truth of the living entities; CC Adi 7.117

guru-tattva — the truth in understanding the spiritual master; CC Adi 7.3

bhakta-tattva — in the category of devotees; CC Adi 7.15

īśvarera tattva — the truth of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; CC Adi 7.116

rādhā-tattva — the truth about Rādhā; CC Madhya 8.263

kṛṣṇa-tattva — the truth of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; CC Adi 7.117

pañca-tattva — five truths; CC Adi 7.20-21

pañca-tattva-rūpe — the Lord in His five forms; CC Adi 7.163

caitanya-tattva — the truth of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu; CC Adi 7.168

rasa-tattva — the truth about transcendental mellows; CC Madhya 8.263

līlā-tattva — the truth about the pastimes of the Lord; CC Madhya 8.263

ātma-tattva — the science of God or that of the living entity; SB 2.9.4

mahat-tattva — of the total material energy; SB 11.15.11

nityānanda-tattva — the truth of Lord Nityānanda; CC Adi 5.12

īśvara-tattva — the truth of the Absolute Truth; CC Adi 5.88

nityānanda-tattva-sīmā — the limit of the truth of Lord Nityānanda; CC Adi 5.126

tattva — the truth; CC Adi 5.148

prabhu-tattva-jñātā — a knower of the true identity of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu; CC Madhya 6.18

Quote:

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There is only two kinds of living entities, Vishnu tattva and jiva tattva.

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S'akti: power, energy. In three types: higher, in between and lower energy:

 

1) Antaranga-sakti of K r i s h n a and His expansion; His transcendental opulence.

 

2) Tatashta-sakti concerning the individual soul.

 

3) Bahiranga-sakti: the material energy.

 

On speaks of the higher and lower energy of respectively V i s h n u - s'akti and M a h â m â y â - sakti (see also p o t e n c y).

 

- The nine s'aktis or powers of the Lord: vimalâ, purity; utkarshinî, exalted state; jñâna, knowledge; kriyâ, activity; yogâ, yogic powers; prahvî, modesty; satyâ, truthfulness; îs'ânâ,sovereighnty and anugrahâ, grace (mentioned in 11.27: 25-26).

 

- Sakti as opposed to s'akti means adherence, attachment, devotion or addiction to.

 

S'akti-aves'a-avatâra: specially empowered incarnations,

 

- The s'aktyâves'a-avatâras are categorized into:

 

(1) Forms of divine absorption (bhagavad-âves'a), such as K a p i l a d e v a or R i s h a b h a d e v a.

(2) Divinely empowered forms (s'aktyâves'a), of whom seven are foremost:

 

1 S' e s h a N â g a in the V a i k u n t h h a world, empowered for the personal service of the Supreme Lord (sva-sevana-s'akti),

2 A n a n t a d e v a, empowered to bear all the planets within the universe (bhû-dhârana-S'akti),

3 L o r d B r a h m â , empowered with the energy to create the cosmic manifestation (srîshthi-s'akti),

4 C a t u h s a n a, or the K u m â r a s, specifically empowered to distribute transcendental knowledge (jñâna-s'akti),

5 N â r a d a M u n i, empowered to distribute devotional service (bhakti-s'akti),

6 M a h â r â j a P r î t h u, specifically empowered to rule and maintain the living entities (pâlana-s'akti) and

7 P a r a s u r â m a , specifically empowered to cut down rogues and demons (dushtha-damana-s'akti).'(Purport CC madhya 20,246, see also a v a t â r a).

- Jesus Christ is also considered a s'akti-aves'a avatâra.

[Beggar]

 

<table><tbody><tr><td>Madhya-līlā</td><td class="m">Chapter 22: The Process of Devotional Service</td></tr></tbody></table>Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 22.11

'nitya-mukta' — nitya kṛṣṇa-caraṇe unmukha

'kṛṣṇa-pāriṣada' nāma, bhuñje sevā-sukha

SYNONYMS

nitya-mukta — eternally liberated; nitya — always; kṛṣṇa-caraṇe — the lotus feet of Lord Kṛṣṇa; unmukha — turned toward; kṛṣṇa-pāriṣada — associates of Lord Kṛṣṇa; nāma — known as; bhuñje — enjoy; sevā-sukha — the happiness of service.

TRANSLATION

"Those who are eternally liberated are always awake to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and they render transcendental loving service at the feet of Lord Kṛṣṇa. They are to be considered eternal associates of Kṛṣṇa, and they are eternally enjoying the transcendental bliss of serving Kṛṣṇa.

[Beggar]

 

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 22.12

'nitya-bandha' — kṛṣṇa haite nitya-bahirmukha

'nitya-saḿsāra', bhuñje narakādi duḥkha

SYNONYMS

nitya-bandha — perpetually conditioned; kṛṣṇa haite — from Kṛṣṇa; nitya — eternally; bahir-mukha — averse; nitya-saḿsāra — perpetually conditioned in the material world; bhuñje — experience; naraka-ādi duḥkha — the tribulations of hellish conditions of life.

TRANSLATION

"Apart from the ever-liberated devotees, there are the conditioned souls, who always turn away from the service of the Lord. They are perpetually conditioned in this material world and are subjected to the material tribulations brought about by different bodily forms in hellish conditions.

[Sarva gattah]

Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated?…” You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

 

 

The full expression and complete potential of ALL marginal living entities is their perpetual ’svarupa’ body that is eternally situated and established within Goloka or Vaikuntha.

 

Therefore it can then be said that the marginal living entities who have miss-used their free will and chose to enter the maha-tattva, are only temporarily trapped within the material creation, while their undying ‘svarupa’ body is currently not realized by them within the 'perpetual present' of Goloka and Vaikuntha. This is because of being consciously absorbed and restricted to their baddha jiva conscious imagination that is trapped within the divided time of past, present and future within the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu"

 

Srila Prabhupada: You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, “I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna’s servant. Eternal servant. That’s all. lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Our contact with matter is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness, we break the dream. Similarly, we can break this situation” Srila Prabhupada lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things”. Letter to Madhuvisa Swami

 

Srila Prabhupada - ‘Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

 

Srila Prabhupada - “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krishna in His Lila or sport” Letter to Madhuvisa Swami

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only” (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

 

Srila Prabhupada – ‘So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what his relationship with Krishna is, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

 

Srila Prabhupada –“Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what your relationship with Krishna is automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

 

Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

 

This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM, THINK OR IMAGINE WE LEAVE. In this way the mahat-tattva is the destination for where such dreams go.

 

It is there in the material creation that the baddha jiva's are provided with temporary bodily forms created by Maha-Vishnu who is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva or material creation aspect of the Spiritual Sky.

 

In this way it is Srila Prabhupada explaining to us in very simple English that we all originate from Goloka.

[suchandra]

 

Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

 

This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM, THINK OR IMAGINE WE LEAVE. In this way the mahat-tattva is the destination for where such dreams go.

 

It is there in the material creation that the baddha jiva's are provided with temporary bodily forms created by Maha-Vishnu who is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva or material creation aspect of the Spiritual Sky.

 

In this way it is Srila Prabhupada explaining to us in very simple English that we all originate from Goloka.

 

"No policeman can possibly be a prisoner", because as soon a policeman performs criminal activity he's no longer to be considered as representing law, he becomes immediately fallen.

In this sense, yes, no resident of Vaikuntha falls into the material world.

Those who fall, can no longer be called residents of Vaikuntha.

[Shakti-Fan]

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 22.12-13

 

TRANSLATIONS

Apart from the ever-liberated devotees, there are the conditioned souls, who always turn away from the service of the Lord. They are perpetually conditioned in this material world and are subjected to the material tribulations brought about by different bodily forms in hellish conditions.

 

Those who are eternally liberated are always awake to Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and they render transcendental loving service at the feet of Lord Kṛṣṇa. They are to be considered eternal associates of Kṛṣṇa, and they are eternally enjoying the transcendental bliss of serving Kṛṣṇa.

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja:

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> It is told like this in the scriptures, but actually there is no birth of the jivas. They are all eternal, like Baladeva Prabhu Himself. This is only said to convince ordinary jivas, conditioned souls. There are so many things that sastra has told us, whereas in reality, in Goloka Vrndavana dhama, these things will be seen in another way.</td></tr></tbody></table>

 

In this way it is Srila Prabhupada explaining to us in very simple English that we all originate from Goloka.

From Srila Prabhupada's translation - [The conditioned souls] "are perpetually conditioned in this material world". This is the general viewpoint given by Srila Prabhupada. Srila Narayana Maharaja says, "whereas in reality, in Goloka Vrndavana dhama, these things will be seen in another way."

So Srila Prabhupada being a resident of Goloka in the true awakened way could say from his viewpoint,

You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

But at least 95% of the time especially in his books he gives the explantion of our condition as he does in Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 22.12-13. Further more he never really says "in very simple English that we all originate from Goloka." No one has ever quoted that on these forums!...therefore it is a cheating mentality to repeat that. One cannot make a political campaign out of rheotoric to convince others of the Goloka viewpoint. Srila Prabhupada never did that nor does Srila Narayana Maharaja, nor did any acarya in previous times. Such a strategy is a dangerous deviation and based on many layers of ignorance. It is something that none of us will fully understand until we are fully realised souls, so get on with it.

 

[suchandra]

 

 

 

 

 

From Srila Prabhupada's translation - [The conditioned souls] "are perpetually conditioned in this material world". This is the general viewpoint given by Srila Prabhupada. Srila Narayana Maharaja says, "whereas in reality, in Goloka Vrndavana dhama, these things will be seen in another way."

So Srila Prabhupada being a resident of Goloka in the true awakened way could say from his viewpoint,

But at least 95% of the time especially in his books he gives the explantion of our condition as he does in Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 22.12-13. Further more he never really says "in very simple English that we all originate from Goloka." No one has ever quoted that on these forums!...therefore it is a cheating mentality to repeat that. One cannot make a political campaign out of rheotoric to convince others of the Goloka viewpoint. Srila Prabhupada never did that nor does Srila Narayana Maharaja, nor did any acarya in previous times. Such a strategy is a dangerous deviation and based on many layers of ignorance. It is something that none of us will fully understand until we are fully realised souls, so get on with it.

 

Prabhupāda: Wherefrom just now you are coming? Hm? Tell me wherefrom you are coming. You cannot say? Who can say wherefrom he is coming. Huh? Wherefrom you are coming? You cannot say? Hm? You cannot say wherefrom you are coming just now?

Indian man (7): That is what I would like to know.

Prabhupāda: First of all say.

Indian man (7): What is true reason for our existence and where are we going?

Prabhupāda: You are coming from home. So this is our temporary home. We have got real home. That is the kingdom of God. We are coming from there. Just like you have come from India, or your forefathers have come from India. Now you have made this country as your home. Similarly, we have come from the spiritual world. Now we have made this material world as our home. So here, struggling for existence… It is said in the Bhagavad-gītā,

mamaivāṁśo jīva-loke jīva-bhūtaḥ sanātanaḥ manaḥ ṣaṣṭhānīndriyāṇi prakṛti-sthāni karṣati [Bg. 15.7]

“These living entities, they are My part and parcel, or they are as good as I am, part and parcel.” A small particle of gold is gold. It is no other thing. Similarly, we, being part and parcel of God, we are also the same quality. Not the same quantity but same quality. So we have come here, and we are struggling for existence with our mind and senses. This is our position. Therefore our business is how to go back to home, back to Godhead. That is our main business. We are teaching that.

 

Bhagavad-gītā 7.1

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

Durban, October 9, 1975

751009BG.DUR

[Shakti-Fan]

 

Prabhupāda: You are coming from home. So this is our temporary home. We have got real home. That is the kingdom of God.

Srila Prabhupada is using the term, "the kingdom of God". One can easily assume that he is indirectly referring to the entire parvyoma or spiritual sky. The Vaikuntha planets are within the brahmajyoti so the brahmajyoti is also part of the spiritual sky. Your point is only by inference, alone. There is no statement here literally stating that the conditioned souls come from Goloka.

To insist on such a conclusion while ignoring opposing quotes by Srila Prabhupada and then telling that there are no contradictions is not a way to convince anyone of your position.

[suchandra]

 

................your position.

 

Somehow when having read all the quotes I still have no position.

Could be that when we come back to our original position in the spiritual world we find out that our absence from the spiritual world was only for the time span of one breath and not even detected by others and only Krishna knows?

This would be the best.

[gauragopala dasa]

 

We are always with Krishna however, a few living entities only ‘think’ they are not in Goloka or Vaikuntha, therefore we are all dreaming as our nitya-baddha secondary self within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu.

 

 

THE DREAMING MAHA-VISHNU AND HIS MAHAT-TATTVA UNIVERSES

 

Maha-Vishnu below in the painting is lying down resting and dreaming His mahat-tattva creation. His dreams facilities the dreaming marginal living entities when they choose to ignore their perpetual Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha-svarupa body, therefore, their separation from Krishna is also a dream that is temporary but very real.

In this way the marginal beings withdrawals deep within their own sub-consciousness (nitya-baddha) that takes them to the land of the dreaming known as the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu.

It is there within the mahat tattva, these counterfeit vessels or mahat-tattva vessels, known as ethereal and biological bodies, impound the baddha jiva. While the living entity is dreaming as their baddha-jiva identity, they forget their perpetual nitya-siddha bona fide self that is eternally serving Krishna.

Srila Prabhupada - "Just like with Krishna's friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krishna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed”.

Srimad Bhagavatam 6.1.49: “As a sleeping person acts according to the body manifested in his dreams and accepts it to be himself, so one identifies with his present body, which he acquired because of his past religious or irreligious actions, and is unable to know his past or future lives”.

No One’s perpetual devotional body falls from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha that is not possible? One only thinks they are fallen, or dreams they are fallen, but in unadulterated reality, one’s authentic bodily self never falls down

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually No one falls from Vaikuntha, We really do not fall. We think we are fallen, we dream we are this body or that body. But this is just dreaming meaning we have forgotten our original situation swerving Krishna due to our sub-conscious dreaming that transports us to a far, far away place without Krishna”.

That far away place or ‘dark cloud for the dreaming’ is a real manifestation but temporary and created by the Lords sleeping Maha-Vishnu expansion; He creates the material impermanent formation known as the mahat-tattva (MATERIAL CREATION) that takes up 25% of the Spiritual Sky or the Brahmajyoti.

 

 

The mahat-tattva caters for the few marginal devotees who choose to ignore Krishna and simultaneously their own perpetual eternal nitya-siddha-svarupa body they serve Krishna as. In this way they choose to live out their own dream creations within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu in the mahat-tattva cloud, as their inferior nitya-baddha consciousness.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Krishna’s planet of Goloka Vrndavana in the perpetual feature of the Spiritual Sky, is centred above in the red lotus flower and surrounded by unlimited expansions of Vishnu and Lakshmi in their surrounding yellow Vaikuntha planets. Both these transcendental abodes are made up of living vigraha (bodily) all-attractive conscious beings, individual entities known as nitya siddha’s who are the bodily radiance of Krishna.

All living entities are already established within the ‘eternal present’ serving the Supreme Vigraha Lord Krishna or His Lord Vishnu Expansions as their own infinitesimal vigraha bodies.

It is therefore very important to understand in our present impersonal mundane religious and technological world, that all of us are originally individual perpetual bodily personalities.

It is a crystal clear fact that we are ALL collectively and independently Krishna’s marginal potency FULLY EXPRESSED ETERNALLY in our everlasting original vigraha bodily position serving Krishna.

Just like one cannot separate the Sun from the sunrays, the marginal living beings and Krishna are never separated. That analogy can be misleading because we certainly in no way resemble a spark or ray of sunlight and Krishna is certainly not a blazing Sun.

 

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

 

This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM, THINK OR IMAGINE WE LEAVE. In this way the mahat-tattva is the destination for where such dreams go.

 

It is there in the material creation that the baddha jiva's are provided with temporary bodily forms created by Maha-Vishnu who is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva or material creation aspect of the Spiritual Sky.

 

In this way it is Srila Prabhupada explaining to us in very simple English that we all originate from Goloka.

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<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by suchandra

Prabhupāda: You are coming from home. So this is our temporary home. We have got real home. That is the kingdom of God.

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Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Srila Prabhupada -"You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971 </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Some backgound on where this debate began -

 

The above is the correct understanding of how we all came to the material world, this I have understood since 1972 when we travelled around Australia in a double decker bus with Mudhuvisa (then) Swami and Caru prabhu.

 

Caru was with us only for part of the preaching mission to Towns and Villages around Australia however was there when the ‘origin of the jiva’ discussions began. Others on this first travelling preaching mission from Sydney to Cairns were Balarama, Chittahari, Yasamatinandana, Dvaipayana, Ted Spencer, Kuntiboja, Srngi (now Muralidhar_das) Krishna Prema and my self and one or two I cannot remember, lived in the Brahmacari quarters which was the bottom deck of the bus (except for the bus drivers who had a private space upstairs), while the second deck (upstairs) was the Brahmatarini quarters were Ambika, Arti, Kamarupa and Sukla devi-dasi’s resided.

 

It was at 83 Hereford street Gleb Temple , near the Sydney Uni in April 1972 we began our preaching mission. There were 14 of us on the double Decker Bus, the Brahmacari quarters were down stairs and the brahmatrinis quarters were up stairs. The trip went up north visting all Towns to Cains.

 

On the way we chanted on the streets of Brisbane for many days. Brisbane was also having their annual 'festive show' and we chanted at the front gates where tens of thousands of people watched us chanting and some recieving BTG.

 

It was on this bus trip a devotee suggested we came from the Brahmajyoti and started the ‘origin of the jiva’ controversy.That idea was quickly rejected in a letter from Prabhupada that was sent to all Temple Presidents in Australia.

The Srimad Bhagavatam classes delved deeply into the souls origin on this bus preaching mission. We new this was a very auspecious time and new what we were hearing where the deep secrets and explanation of the univers and its creator Lord Krishna. We just new we were very fortunate to be there hearing such wonders of creation. Some of us asked 'what did we deserve to hear the Srimad Bhagavatam, that Madhuvisa read from one of Prabhupadas original volumes he brought with him in 1965 to America'.

 

Some speculated we were yogis, mystic's, devotee's and even demons from the Satya-yuga. Madhuvisa laughed and simply said 'It is by the causless mercy of Lord Caitanya and Srila Prabhupada that the seeds of Bhakti are sowed in your hearts.

 

In those days we would chant on the streets for 8 to 10 hours a day. One night at the show grounds we chanted to 10pm because there where so many people. We did this through all the Towns ond cities as we proceeded up north to Cains

 

At Karanda, just ouside of Cains, Madhuvisa lead a blissful kirtan through the hippie community and hundreds of them, most naked, joined in chanting Hare Krishna and dancing.

 

Devotees before this had never visited anywhere outside of Sydney or Melbourne. We were the pioneers at the very beginning of Lord Caitanya's very rare Goldern Age in Kali-yuga.

 

We celebrated Janmastam at a Buddhist colony not far from Karranda; we loaded as many hippies as we could in the double decker Hare Krishna bus, all chanting Hare Krishna and dancing 'on the bus' to the excellent blissful kirtans with Mudhuvisa leading. IT WAS VERY SPECIAL

 

The following day was Vysa-puj and Madhuvisa had lit a candle under Srila Prabhupada’s photo, the aura, bliss, love and security from that photo permeated the entire bus with an amazing mood of reverence and Krishna Consciousness. They were amazing days and there was a childish innocence about those days, In fact we thought Mudhuvisa was old (he was 24 and Balarama was 29). The rest of us where still teenagers. The present generation I don't think realize how young we were in those beginning years of ISKCON. There was also no hanky panky going on, everyone was very sincere, very dedicated and very attached to Prabhupada, I know I was.

 

In those early years we only ate offerings to the Dieties and absolutely nothing else (We had a beautiful photo of the Panca-tattva with a wonderful Photo of Prabhupada at their feet), no-one even dreamed of eating anything unprepared by devotees or even drink soft drinks in those blissful days.

 

Those years were extraordinary. Dwaip cooked up beautiful offerings to Srila Prabhupada while Citta, and Balarama and myself were the Bus Drivers. Yaso and Kuntiboja were the inquisitive philosopher, well, actually we all were. Many times we discussed the origins of the jiva that lead to the famous “Crow-and-Tal-Fruit Logic” letter Srila Prabupada sent to his inquisitive Australian devotees.

 

You will find many devotee's in ISKCON will not discuss this subject because of that letter however, that was then. nearly 40 years ago. I am convience Srila Prabhupada never meant that we never discuss this subject. In fact he has said in other letters we should undertand this subject and that we were previously actively engaged in Krishna Lila in our original constitional position.

 

Actually, we are therefore still in Vaikuntha but are 'consciously' caught up within the past, present and future of the material creation that has covered the 'eternal present' of Vaikuntha and Goloka like a cloud covers the Sun.

 

Also you will find many devotee's in ISKCON will not discuss this subject because of that letter however, that was then. nearly 40 years ago. I am convience Srila Prabhupada meant we never discuss this subject. In fact he has said in other letters we should undertand this subject and that we were previously actively engaged in Krishna Lila.

 

Actually we still in Vaikuntha but are 'consciously' caught up within the past, present and future of the material creation that has covered the 'eternal present' of Vaikuntha and Goloka like a cloud covers the Sun

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Your next question, "Is a pure devotee eternally liberated and if so is he at any time a conditioned soul? We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated? You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned. Because we cannot trace out the history or the date when we became conditioned, therefore it is technically called eternally conditioned. Otherwise the living entity is not actually conditioned. A living entity is always pure. But he is prone to be attracted by material enjoyment and as soon as he agrees to place himself in material enjoyment, he becomes conditioned, but that is not permanent. Therefore a living entity is called on the marginal state, sometimes this side, sometimes that side. These are very intelligent questions. And I am very glad that you are putting such intelligent questions and trying to understand it. It is very good”. Letter to Aniruddha dasa, Los Angeles 14 November 1968

[suchandra]

 

It was on this bus trip a devotee suggested we came from the Brahmajyoti and started the ‘origin of the jiva’ controversy.That idea was quickly rejected in a letter from Prabhupada that was sent to all Temple Presidents in Australia.

 

Good point and: if the conditioned souls wouldn't be originating from the spiritual world as stated below, that bhakti-rasa is there in everyone’s heart, this statement wouldnt make any sense. Like guruvani says, we originate from mahat-tattva, means, there would be only mahat-tattva rasa in the living entities souls but not Nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti.

 

 

 

Prabhupāda: "Yes. Just like we have seen, we have experience. Sometimes the car becomes blocked. But some fellow pushes it. We have got this experience. What is called that? Chocked up?

 

 

Then you get, get down and push the car and brut brut brut, goes. Similarly the bhakti-rasa is there in everyone’s heart. Nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti. Because we, we are part and parcel of Krishna. Just like father and son. A father and son may be separate for many, many, many, many years. But as soon as they meet together, again the same affection comes. Again the same affection comes.

 

Pushing process. And as soon as the energy comes, then automatically: clak clak clak. No more pushing. Automatically. This pushing process is required.

 

Just like if you push the car little farther, but unless the energy of the car comes into action, this car will not go. Simply pushing is not sufficient. The car must come to his energy automatically. Then it will go. So that process is bhakti. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ [Bg. 18.55]"

 

The Nectar of Devotion

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

Bombay, December 28, 1972

http://causelessmercy.com/t/t/721228ND.BOM.htm?i=1972

 

 

Since present Vaishnava institutions are managed by descendants of the Yadu dynasty, things will eventually settle down and we'll have a real Golden Age for the next 10,000 years.

This much faith we must have.

[Kulapavana]

 

Just like if you push the car little farther, but unless the energy of the car comes into action, this car will not go. Simply pushing is not sufficient. The car must come to his energy automatically. Then it will go. So that process is bhakti. Bhaktyā mām abhijānāti yāvān yaś cāsmi tattvataḥ [Bg. 18.55]"

 

Since present Vaishnava institutions are managed by descendants of the Yadu dynasty, things will eventually settle down and we'll have a real Golden Age for the next 10,000 years.

This much faith we must have.

 

The Nectar of Devotion

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

Bombay, December 28, 1972

http://causelessmercy.com/t/t/721228ND.BOM.htm?i=1972

 

Suchandra-ji, you should avoid mixing Prabhupada quotes with your own comments. It is very misleading and confusing. The highlighted text does not come from the referenced source.

[suchandra]

Suchandra-ji, you should avoid mixing Prabhupada quotes with your own comments. It is very misleading and confusing. The highlighted text does not come from the referenced source.

fixed - I am so sorry for spoiling your day, hope it doesnt happen again.

[gHari]

This signature 'quote' is not in the Vedabase. Where did it come from? "Srila Prabhupada - "We all have come down from Vaikuntha some millions of years ago!

[CCC]

 

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-right: 3ex; padding-left: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0">Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

 

This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM, THINK OR IMAGINE WE LEAVE. In this way the mahat-tattva is the destination for where such dreams go.

 

It is there in the material creation that the baddha jiva's are provided with temporary bodily forms created by Maha-Vishnu who is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva or material creation aspect of the Spiritual Sky.

 

In this way it is Srila Prabhupada explaining to us in very simple English that we all originate from Goloka.

</td></tr></tbody></table>

 

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-right: 3ex; padding-left: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0">Originally Posted by suchandra

Prabhupāda: You are coming from home. So this is our temporary home. We have got real home. That is the kingdom of God.

</td></tr></tbody></table>

 

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-right: 3ex; padding-left: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0">Srila Prabhupada -"You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971 </td></tr></tbody></table>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Some backgound on where this debate began -

 

The above is the correct understanding of how we all came to the material world, this I have understood since 1972 when we travelled around Australia in a double decker bus with Mudhuvisa (then) Swami and Caru prabhu.

 

Caru was with us only for part of the preaching mission to Towns and Villages around Australia however was there when the ‘origin of the jiva’ discussions began. Others on this first travelling preaching mission from Sydney to Cairns were Balarama, Chittahari, Yasamatinandana, Dvaipayana, Ted Spencer, Kuntiboja, Srngi (now Muralidhar_das) Krishna Prema and my self and one or two I cannot remember, lived in the Brahmacari quarters which was the bottom deck of the bus (except for the bus drivers who had a private space upstairs), while the second deck (upstairs) was the Brahmatarini quarters were Ambika, Arti, Kamarupa and Sukla devi-dasi’s resided.

 

It was at 83 Hereford street Gleb Temple , near the Sydney Uni in April 1972 we began our preaching mission. There were 14 of us on the double Decker Bus, the Brahmacari quarters were down stairs and the brahmatrinis quarters were up stairs. The trip went up north visting all Towns to Cains.

 

On the way we chanted on the streets of Brisbane for many days. Brisbane was also having their annual 'festive show' and we chanted at the front gates where tens of thousands of people watched us chanting and some recieving BTG.

 

It was on this bus trip a devotee suggested we came from the Brahmajyoti and started the ‘origin of the jiva’ controversy.That idea was quickly rejected in a letter from Prabhupada that was sent to all Temple Presidents in Australia.

The Srimad Bhagavatam classes delved deeply into the souls origin on this bus preaching mission. We new this was a very auspecious time and new what we were hearing where the deep secrets and explanation of the univers and its creator Lord Krishna. We just new we were very fortunate to be there hearing such wonders of creation. Some of us asked 'what did we deserve to hear the Srimad Bhagavatam, that Madhuvisa read from one of Prabhupadas original volumes he brought with him in 1965 to America'.

 

Some speculated we were yogis, mystic's, devotee's and even demons from the Satya-yuga. Madhuvisa laughed and simply said 'It is by the causless mercy of Lord Caitanya and Srila Prabhupada that the seeds of Bhakti are sowed in your hearts.

 

In those days we would chant on the streets for 8 to 10 hours a day. One night at the show grounds we chanted to 10pm because there where so many people. We did this through all the Towns ond cities as we proceeded up north to Cains

 

At Karanda, just ouside of Cains, Madhuvisa lead a blissful kirtan through the hippie community and hundreds of them, most naked, joined in chanting Hare Krishna and dancing.

 

Devotees before this had never visited anywhere outside of Sydney or Melbourne. We were the pioneers at the very beginning of Lord Caitanya's very rare Goldern Age in Kali-yuga.

 

We celebrated Janmastam at a Buddhist colony not far from Karranda; we loaded as many hippies as we could in the double decker Hare Krishna bus, all chanting Hare Krishna and dancing 'on the bus' to the excellent blissful kirtans with Mudhuvisa leading. IT WAS VERY SPECIAL

 

The following day was Vysa-puj and Madhuvisa had lit a candle under Srila Prabhupada’s photo, the aura, bliss, love and security from that photo permeated the entire bus with an amazing mood of reverence and Krishna Consciousness. They were amazing days and there was a childish innocence about those days, In fact we thought Mudhuvisa was old (he was 24 and Balarama was 29). The rest of us where still teenagers. The present generation I don't think realize how young we were in those beginning years of ISKCON. There was also no hanky panky going on, everyone was very sincere, very dedicated and very attached to Prabhupada, I know I was.

 

In those early years we only ate offerings to the Dieties and absolutely nothing else (We had a beautiful photo of the Panca-tattva with a wonderful Photo of Prabhupada at their feet), no-one even dreamed of eating anything unprepared by devotees or even drink soft drinks in those blissful days.

 

Those years were extraordinary. Dwaip cooked up beautiful offerings to Srila Prabhupada while Citta, and Balarama and myself were the Bus Drivers. Yaso and Kuntiboja were the inquisitive philosopher, well, actually we all were. Many times we discussed the origins of the jiva that lead to the famous “Crow-and-Tal-Fruit Logic” letter Srila Prabupada sent to his inquisitive Australian devotees.

 

You will find many devotee's in ISKCON will not discuss this subject because of that letter however, that was then. nearly 40 years ago. I am convience Srila Prabhupada never meant that we never discuss this subject. In fact he has said in other letters we should undertand this subject and that we were previously actively engaged in Krishna Lila in our original constitional position.

 

Actually, we are therefore still in Vaikuntha but are 'consciously' caught up within the past, present and future of the material creation that has covered the 'eternal present' of Vaikuntha and Goloka like a cloud covers the Sun.

 

Also you will find many devotee's in ISKCON will not discuss this subject because of that letter however, that was then. nearly 40 years ago. I am convience Srila Prabhupada meant we never discuss this subject. In fact he has said in other letters we should undertand this subject and that we were previously actively engaged in Krishna Lila.

 

Actually we still in Vaikuntha but are 'consciously' caught up within the past, present and future of the material creation that has covered the 'eternal present' of Vaikuntha and Goloka like a cloud covers the Sun

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Your next question, "Is a pure devotee eternally liberated and if so is he at any time a conditioned soul? We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated? You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned. Because we cannot trace out the history or the date when we became conditioned, therefore it is technically called eternally conditioned. Otherwise the living entity is not actually conditioned. A living entity is always pure. But he is prone to be attracted by material enjoyment and as soon as he agrees to place himself in material enjoyment, he becomes conditioned, but that is not permanent. Therefore a living entity is called on the marginal state, sometimes this side, sometimes that side. These are very intelligent questions. And I am very glad that you are putting such intelligent questions and trying to understand it. It is very good”. Letter to Aniruddha dasa, Los Angeles 14 November 1968

 

interesting about what happened in asutralia, also we should remeber in a lecture at australia where Srila Prabhupada was speaking very openely about tha fall from Vaikhunta

[suchandra]

interesting about what happened in asutralia, also we should remeber in a lecture at australia where Srila Prabhupada was speaking very openely about tha fall from Vaikhunta

Today I listen to "Talking a Trashy Audience" 1 Jul 74 , Melbourne, doesnt look like these people were more spiritually inclined. There were interjections almost through the whole class at an university.

[CCC]

 

Today I listen to "Talking a Trashy Audience" 1 Jul 74 , Melbourne, doesnt look like these people were more spiritually inclined. There were interjections almost through the whole class at an university.

 

 

I will check the dvd library

[Sarva gattah]

 

This signature 'quote' is not in the Vedabase. Where did it come from? "Srila Prabhupada - "We all have come down from Vaikuntha some millions of years ago!

 

Srila Prabhupada - We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973 ...

 

The Real Explanation: Our Eternal Consitutional Position...

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=j>we have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973 ...

therealexplanation.org/article/eternal_theory.html - 41k - <NOBR>Cached - Similar pages</NOBR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Vyasa Puja Offering to Srila Prabhupada 2007 | --- www.devaswami ...

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=j>Because we have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago. Anadi karama-phale. Anadi means "before the creation" . ...

Dandavats » Stats<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=j>The previous night, during my guard duty, I took some rest in that same car. .... told us that we came down from Goloka some millions of years ago, ...

www.dandavats.com/?page_<WBR>id=1638&stats_author=Svarupa - 109k - <NOBR>Cached - Similar pages</NOBR></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[Sarva gattah]

 

Today I listen to "

Talking a Trashy Audience" 1 Jul 74 , Melbourne, doesnt look like these people were more spiritually inclined. There were interjections almost through the whole class at an university.

 

Yeah it was heavy, I was there, the students threw large cans of red paint over the front windscreen of our Sankirtan Comby-Vans on the way to, and as we left the Uni.

At the University Hall students kept constantly interrupting the lecture by Prabhupada with a loudspeaker mic, they constantly abused Madhuvia because of his American accent, claiming 'Hare Krishna' was another yank import brought to Australia by the CIA.

Missile objects where thrown at the stage that Caru, myself and others rounded up. Caru prabhu thumped (bashed him) one of the students for throwing missiles. It was near the end of the Vietnam War, Australia was already out of Vietnam but the yanks were still there. Australian students hated America at this time and took it out on Madhuvisa because of his Boston American accent.

As we left the Uni students pelted us with large rocks, one just missed us personally but shattered the window next to me as we left, Astasiddhi prabhu, an Indian devotee. jumped out of the Van and confronted about 15 youths, I yelled out 'Are you crazy prabhu, lets just get out of here!!"

Afterwards Prabhupada just further emphasised what he had said about the brain dead Australians in 1971. "The Australian youth ARE inquisitive, but they live in a country run by MEAT HEADS"

The main agitator on the mic abusing Madhuvia that day and interrupting Prabhupada's lecture would one day become the Australian treasurer from 1996 to 2007 in the Howard Liberal Government. The agitating students name was Peter Costello (He even wore his 'Essendon footy scarf' on that cold winters day)

[Beggar]

 

we have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973 ...

Until an authorized transcript of this lecture is provided, the above quote and all the others provided should be considered hearsay.

 

 

<cite>American Heritage Dictionary</cite> - Cite This Source - <cite>Share This</cite> <!-- google_ad_section_start(name=def) --> hear·say (hîr'sā') Pronunciation Key

<!--BOF_HEAD--><!--EOF_HEAD--> n. <!--BOF_DEF-->

1. Unverified information heard or received from another; rumor.

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[Sarva gattah]

Srila Prabhupada - We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973 ...

[Beggar]

Of course! He said it, whether he said it or he didn't! In the 1980, I asked Bhavananda why ISKCON had begun to chant, "jaya sri krsna caitanya prabhu nityananda jaya advaita gadadahara srivas adi gaura bhakta vrnda." (Instead of sri advaita) He said that it was because of that temple near the Krsna Balarama Mandir that chanted some bogus mantra and Prabhupada wanted to make our Pancha Tattva mantra as different as possible. Then he told me, "ya know, I'm not really sure if that happened or it happened in a dream." And based on Bhavananda's dream the mantra was chanted in a different way than Srila Prabhupada chanted it for years.

[Kulapavana]

 

Of course! He said it, whether he said it or he didn't! In the 1980, I asked Bhavananda why ISKCON had begun to chant, "jaya sri krsna caitanya prabhu nityananda jaya advaita gadadahara srivas adi gaura bhakta vrnda." (Instead of sri advaita) He said that it was because of that temple near the Krsna Balarama Mandir that chanted some bogus mantra and Prabhupada wanted to make our Pancha Tattva mantra as different as possible. Then he told me, "ya know, I'm not really sure if that happened or it happened in a dream." And based on Bhavananda's dream the mantra was chanted in a different way than Srila Prabhupada chanted it for years.

 

I think it was even more complicated. It all started with Prabhupada singing Bhaja Sri Krsna Caitanya. When Prabhupada found out that the temple next door chanted like that as well, he made the change to "jaya" from "bhaja".

[Beggar]

 

I think it was even more complicated. It all started with Prabhupada singing Bhaja Sri Krsna Caitanya. When Prabhupada found out that the temple next door chanted like that as well, he made the change to "jaya" from "bhaja".

When I joined ISKCON in '71 I always wondered why we heard Srila Prabhupada chant "bhaja sri krsna..." on the old recordings since we chanted "jaya sri krsna...". It wasn't until '77 or '78 that the change to "jaya advaita" was introduced. I had been told that Bhavananda knew the real story so I asked him about it in L.A. in '80.

[Sarva gattah]

 

Of course! He said it, whether he said it or he didn't! In the 1980, I asked Bhavananda why ISKCON had begun to chant, "jaya sri krsna caitanya prabhu nityananda jaya advaita gadadahara srivas adi gaura bhakta vrnda." (Instead of sri advaita) He said that it was because of that temple near the Krsna Balarama Mandir that chanted some bogus mantra and Prabhupada wanted to make our Pancha Tattva mantra as different as possible. Then he told me, "ya know, I'm not really sure if that happened or it happened in a dream." And based on Bhavananda's dream the mantra was chanted in a different way than Srila Prabhupada chanted it for years.

 

Actually Hari Sauri changed that in Australia on the order of Srila Prabhupada in 1976, I was there in Melbourne when Bhaja was changed to Jaya, this was before bhavananda. Anyway who are you?