No Contradiction in Teachings of Srila Prabhupada on the Fall of the Jiva

Sarva gattah · January 19, 2008

Great acaryas never stray from the conclusions of guru, sadhu and sastra, indeed there is absolutely no contadiction in Prabhupada's teachings

The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode." Purport, Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.16.26

It appears BALAVIDYA DASA does not fully comprehend what this actually means

Great acaryas never stray from the conclusions of guru, sadhu and sastra

Bhaktivinoda Thakura says that the jivas come under the influence of maya “only when they forget their natural function as Krsna’s servitors.” Srila Prabhupada says we have forgotten our relationship as Krsna’s eternal servants, Srimad-Bhagavatam says it, and now we find Bhaktivinoda Thakura saying the same thing. So guru, sastra, and sadhu are in agreement on this fundamental point.

Just as God has His Svarupa Vigraha, so Jiva has eternal chit Vigraha. That chit body is manifested in Vaikuntha. Being in material world, it is hidden under two coverings . . . . The conceit [the dictionary meaning of conceit is “thought”] of chit body of Jiva which was existent prior to its contact with matter is just and natural. But after the contact with matter, the conceit of self has become foreign and unjust. [Shri Chaitanya Shikshamritam, pp. 156-157]

The jiva has chosen to forget that he is the eternal servitor of Krsna; for this fault Maya has tied him at the neck. [shri Chaitanya Shikshamritam, p. 44]

The reason of the jiva’s bondage is the forgetfulness of his essential svarup as servant of God. [shri Chaitanya Shikshamritam, p. 160]

“When he forgets Krsna he is averse to serve Krsna”

"The perpetual nature of a Jiva is the eternal active servant of Krsna in their nitya-siddha origin thay never falls down from Vaikuntha. A nitya-baddha-jiva exists simultaneously as a separate and non-separated entity. In other words when one chooses to forget Krsna, one is unwilling to serve Krsna as their Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha self and therefore it is that aversion to Krishna that causes the the living entity to imagine, think or dream they are no longer in Vaikuntha. That secondary self is the nitya-baddha jiva condition that enters the mahat-tattva of divided time and space and is given material form (vessels) by Maha -Vishnu to live out their non Krishna conscious imagination"

Srila Prabhupada - "“Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila”

In 1972, a devotee in Australia began saying that the living entities in this material world were originally situated in the brahmajyoti.

According to Madhudvisa Prabhu and Caru Prabhu, who were both in Australia at the time, this caused some fairly widespread disturbance.

Srila Prabhupada therefore dictated a response, a typed copy of which was retained by Madhudvisa Prabhu. This is the famous crow and tal fruit message. Madhudvisa has said that it was distributed to the Australian temple presidents.

In this statement, given in direct response to inquiries from his students on the question of the origin of the jiva,

Srila Prabhupada gives many definitive answers to the questions facing us. He intended these not just as answers to a particular devotee but as his official answer to a philosophical controversy that had arisen in the Society:

We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the ‘seen’ disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position.

Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.

Srila Prabhupada "The jiva is originally with Krsna. But even with Krsna “there is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently.”

Srila Prabhupada sets up a very strong identity between the original state (nitya-syddha) and the final state of liberation. He says we are just like a man dreaming. The man forgets himself (nitya-siddha). He creates a dream identity (nitya-baddha). And when he wakes from that dream identity, he is once more in his original position.

There are two states. The free state (nitya siddha) and the covered state (nitya baddha). The free state is “with Krsna.” There is no suggestion that the original state (nitya siddha) is “fallen.” There is also no suggestion of an original free state (nitya siddha) that is different from the final free state of nitya siddha.

We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila, or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. http://originofjivasoul.spaces.live.com/blog/

Srila Narayana Maharaja:

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: rgb(102,102,102) 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>It is told like this in the scriptures, but actually there is no birth of the jivas. They are all eternal, like Baladeva Prabhu Himself. This is only said to convince ordinary jivas, conditioned souls. There are so many things that sastra has told us, whereas in reality, in Goloka Vrndavana dhama, these things will be seen in another way.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Sarva gattah · January 20, 2008

Srila Prabhupada - We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973 ...

Great Acaryas never stray from the conclusions of guru, sadhu and sastra; indeed there is absolutely no contradiction in Prabhupada's teachings

The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode." Purport, Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.16.26

Prabhupada confirms this as follows

Srila Prabhupada sets up a very strong identity between the original state (nitya-siddha) and the final state of liberation, re-establishing ones nitya-siddha identity. He says we are just like a man dreaming. The man forgets himself as nitya-siddha. He creates a dream identity (nitya-baddha). And when one wakes from that dream identity, one is once more in one's original position as one's eternal Krishna Conscious nitya siddha body that is always within the devotional realm of Vaikuntha established within the eternal 'present' of Krishna Lila.

There are two states all living entities can choose to be aware of, the free state (nitya siddha) and the covered state (nitya baddha).

The nitya siddha's are eternally with Krishna. There is no suggestion that the original state is “fallen.” There is no suggestion that the original free state of nitya siddha is different from the final free state of nitya siddha. It is simply a change of consciousness from the original (In Vaikuntha) to the illusionary (within the mahat-tattva) and the back to the original (or perpetual).

Srila Prabhupada "We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately Maya covers us. Formerly we were with Krishna in His Lila, or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time, it is sometimes said that we are ever conditioned. But this long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krishna consciousness".

Srila Prabhupada "The jiva is originally with Krishna. But even with Krishna “there is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krishna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently.”

To progress in Spiritual life we must clearly understand that we are not these biological vessels nor are we the underlining ethereal vessel (subtle body) that houses the baddha jiva. Such containments belong to the mahat-tattva (material creation) that is ultimately created and facilitated by Maha-Vishnu. Actually this material world and all the physical bodies in it (mahat-tattva) is the dream of Maha-Vishu. We can therefore choose to enter and acquire one of HIS bodily creations if we choose, simply by pursuing our own desires of grandeur and forgetting Krishna and who we really are as nitya-siddha-jiva outside of this temporary mahat-tattva creation, in the process.

The point is WE are NOT these biological vessels. We are not even, what many philosophers refer to as’ on other side’, meaning the ethereal bodies that can appear in a heavenly, hellish or ghostly material reality that is often referred to as sub-space matter and mistaken as spiritual by the less intelligent.

Many religions and spiritual groups, including the Buddhist 'heaven', is simply a higher sub-space aspect of the material creation or mahat-tattva. In other words, one is still contained in a material body which is ethereal on the heavenly planets however, like the rest of the mahat-tattva, that 'heavenly place' is also perishable.

Also it is important to know that the sub-space ethereal vessels (referred to as the subtle body) are ALSO a material reality yet, even though material, such bodies can NEVER be discovered by the grosser material secular biological reality of the mahat-tattva. In other words, one CANNOT see or experience the sub-space ethereal aspect or dimension of the mahat-tattva by using secular space matter, which includes the biological bodily vessel. This means that the electron microscope or the Hubble telescope can never discover sub-space.

And this is just explaining the perishable the material world that is a dark temporary cloud in the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti.

There are also two schools of Vaishnava thought that explain this -

1. 'In the spiritual perpetual world of Vaikuntha, no biological body or its underlining ethereal body does not exist, nor does even the nitya-baddha-jiva impure consciousness subsist that possesses those bodily vessels. This is because the nitya-baddha-jiva consciousness is the temporary imaginary non Krishna Conscious state of the marginal living entity, WHILE our real eternal bodily identity and self, always remains nitya siddha in the eternal ‘present’ beyond the ‘past, present and future’ of the material creation or mahat-tattva'

2. 'Some Vaishnava schools of thought believe the living entity originates from the Impersonal Brahmajyoti, however it is important to understand that they ALSO believe that the marginal living entities ultimate goal is to become eternal servants of Krishna in either Goloka or Vaikuntha and ultimately see this material world, along with both the biological (earthly) and ethereal bodies (that can be heavenly, hellish or ghostly) vessels, as not the real identity of the marginal living entities full SPIRITUAL potential or individual identity. The full potential and eternal constitution of the marginal living entity is in the perpetual legitimate position as an eternal servant of servant of the servant of beautiful Krishna’.

The uninterrupted nature of all living entities is established in their ‘eternal attendance’ within Vaikuntha. It is only there all living entities are perpetually recognized as the eternal servant of Krishna in/as their nitya-siddha bodily constitution. This bodily form can never fall down from Vaikuntha. The nitya-baddha-jiva consciousness however, exists simultaneously as a separate yet non-separated awareness that is only activated when the living entity is unwilling to serve Krishna as their Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha self therefore, it is that aversion to Krishna that causes the living entity to imagine, think or dream they are no longer in Vaikuntha. That secondary self or nitya-baddha jiva conscious condition enters within the mahat-tattva of divided time and space and is given a material form (vessels) by Maha-Vishnu to live out their non-Krishna conscious imagination

Srila Prabhupada - "“Formerly we were with Krishna in His Lila”

Therefore ultimately we are eternal nitya-siddha devotees of Krishna and are not from or this material world (mahat-tattva), we are only visitors.

That devotional selfless body is NOT a container, vessel or vehicle, IT IS WHO WE REALLY ARE ETERNALLY AS KRISHNA’S SERVANT.

We can therefore choose to enter and acquire one of HIS bodily creations (vessels)if we choose, simply by pursuing our own desires of grandeur and forgetting Krishna and who we really are as nitya-siddha-jiva outside of this temporary mahat-tattva creation, in the process.

Sunday, January 20, 2008

Daily Class - Prahladananda Swami

Srimad Bhagavatam 10.79.1-15 - Its our choice whether to be part of Krsna's pastimes or in the pastimes of maya.

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# Posted by Nanda Mandira Dasa at 20/1/08; 9:23:56 AM to the Daily Class dept.

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Shakti-Fan · January 20, 2008

Srila Prabhupada - We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973 ...

This quote is accurate according to the transcript at:

http://www.prabhupadavani.org/Gita/web/text/GT039.html

Sarva gattah · January 20, 2008

Thanks Shakti-Fan this is very informative reading and great katha

"How To Utilize Fighting Spirit"

73/08/06 London, Bhagavad-gita 2.6

listen

Pradyumna (leads chanting, etc.):

na caitad vidmah kataran no gariyo

yad va jayema yadi va no jayeyuh

yan eva hatva na jijivisamas

te 'vasthitah pramukhe dhartarastrah

[bg. 2.6]

Translation: "Nor do we know which is better -- conquering them or being conquered by them. The sons of Dhrtarastra, whom if we killed we should not care to live, are now standing before us on this battlefield."

Prabhupada: So these two groups of cousin-brothers... Maharaja Pandu had five sons and Dhrtarastra had one hundred sons. So it is family, the same family, and it was understanding between them that when others beyond the family would come to attack them, they would join, 105 brothers, and fight. But when there was fight amongst themselves -- one side, hundred brothers; one side, five brothers. Because a ksatriya family, it is to be understood they must go on fighting. Even in their marriage there would be fighting. Without fighting, no marriage takes place in ksatriya family. Krsna had 16,108 wives, and almost in each time He had to fight, to gain the wife. It was a sporting. For ksatriya to fight, it was a sporting. So he is perplexed whether this kind of fighting he should encourage or not.

There is a proverb in Bengal, khabo ki khabo na yadi khao tu pause. "When you are perplexed, Whether I shall eat or not eat,' better not eat." Sometimes we come to this point, "I am not very hungry, whether I shall eat or not eat?" The best course is not eat, not that you eat. But if you eat, then you can eat in the month of December, Pausa.

Why? It is... In Bengal... Bengal is tropical climate, but when it is winter season, it is advised that "If you eat it is not so harmful because it will be digested." The night is very long, or the cold season, the digestive power, is nice. So when we are confused, "to do or not to do," jabo ki jabo na yadi jao tu sauce: "When you think, ‘Whether I shall go or not?' better don't go. But when it is a question of answering the call of nature, you must go." Jabo ki jabo na yadi jau tu sauce, khabo ki khabo na yadi khao tu pause. These are very common sense.

Similarly, Arjuna is now perplexed, "Whether I shall fight or not fight?" That is also everywhere. When there is declaration of war between the modern politicians, they consider... Just like in the last Second World War, when Hitler was preparing for war... Everyone knew that Hitler was going to retaliate because in the first war they became defeated. So Hitler was again preparing. One, my God-brother, German, he came in 1933 in India. So at that time he informed that "There must be war. Hitler is preparing heavy preparations. War must be there."

So at that time, I think, in your country the Prime Minister was Mr. Chamberlain. And he went to see Hitler to stop the war. But he would not. So similarly, in this fight, to the last point, Krsna tried to avoid the war. He proposed to Duryodhana that "They are ksatriyas, your cousin-brothers. You have usurped their kingdom. Never mind, you have taken some way or other. But they are ksatriyas. They must have some means of livelihood. So give them, five brothers, five villages. Out of the whole world empire, you give them five villages." So he... "No, I am not going to part with even an inch of land without fight." Therefore, under such condition, the fight must be there.

So there is no question of Arjuna's considering whether he would fight or not. It is sanctioned by Krsna; so fight must be there. Just like when we were walking, the question was raised that "Why war takes place?" That is not a very difficult subject to understand because everyone of us has got a fighting spirit. Even children fight, cats and dogs fight, birds fight, ants fight. We have seen it. So why not human beings? The fighting spirit is there. That is one of the symptoms of living condition. Fighting. So when that fighting should take place? Of course, at the present moment, by the ambitious politicians, they fight. But fighting, according to Vedic civilization, fighting means dharma-yuddha. On religious principles. Not by whims of political ideas, ism. Just like now fighting is going on on two political groups, the communist and the capitalist. They are trying to avoid only fight, but the fighting is going on.

As soon as America is in some field, immediately Russia is also there. In the last fighting between India and Pakistan, as soon as President Nixon sent their Seventh Fleet on the India Ocean, Bay of Bengal, almost in front of India... This was illegal. But very puffed-up, America. So sent the Seventh Fleet, maybe to show sympathy to the Pakistan. But immediately our Russian friend also appeared there. And therefore, America had to come back. Otherwise, I think, America would have attacked on behalf of Pakistan.

So this is going on. Fighting you cannot stop. Many people, they are thinking how to stop war. That is impossible. It is nonsense proposal. It cannot be. Because the fighting spirit is there in everyone. That is a symptom of living entity. Even children, who has no politics, no enmity, they fight for five minutes; again they are friends. So the fighting spirit is there. Now, how it should be utilized? Our Krsna consciousness movement is there. We say, consciousness. We don't say, "Stop fight" or "Do this, do that, do that," no. Everything should be done in Krsna consciousness. That is our propaganda. Nirbandha-krsna-sambandhe.

Whatever you do, it must have some relationship with the satisfaction of Krsna. If Krsna is satisfied, then you act. That is Krsna consciousness. Krsnendriya trpti vancha tara nama prema. This is love. Just like you love somebody; for the sake of your beloved, you can do anything, and we do sometimes. Similarly, the same thing should be transferred to Krsna. That's all. Try to educate yourself how to love Krsna and act for Krsna only. This is the perfection of life. Sa vai pumsam paro dharmo yato bhaktir adhoksaje [sB 1.2.6]. Bhakti means service, bhaja-sevayam. The bhaj-dhatu, it is used for the purpose of rendering service, bhaja. And bhaja, there is Sanskrit grammar, kti-pratyaya, to make it noun. This is verb. So there are pratyayas, kti pratyaya, ti pratyaya, many pratyayas. So bhaj-dhatu kti, equal to bhakti.

So bhakti means to satisfy Krsna. Bhakti cannot be applied to anyone else. If somebody says that "I am a great devotee of Kali, goddess Kali," that is not bhakti; that is business. Because any demigod you worship, there is some purpose behind that. Generally, people take to become a devotee of goddess Kali for eating meat. That is their purpose. In the Vedic culture, those who are meat-eaters, they have been advised that "Don't eat meat purchased from the slaughterhouse or from the market." Actually, this system was never current anywhere, all over the world, that to maintain slaughterhouse. This is latest invention.

We talk with sometimes with Christian gentlemen, and when we inquire that "Lord Christ says ‘Thou shalt not kill'; why you are killing?" they give evidence that "Christ also ate meat sometimes." Sometimes Christ ate meat, that's all right, but did Christ say that "You maintain big, big slaughterhouse and go on eating meat?" There is no common sense even. Christ might have eaten. Sometimes he... If there was no, nothing available for eating, what could you do? That is another question. In great necessity, when there is no other food except taking meat... That time is coming.

In this age, Kali-yuga, gradually food grains will be reduced. It is stated in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, Twelfth Canto. No rice, no wheat, no milk, no sugar will be available. One has to eat meat. This will be the condition. And maybe to eat the human flesh also. This sinful life is degrading so much so that they will become more and more sinful. Tan aham dvisatah kruran ksipamy ajasram andhe-yonisu.

Those who are demons, those who are sinful, nature's law is to place him in such condition that he will become more and more a demon so that he will never be able to understand what is God. This is nature's law.

If you want to forget God, then God will put you in such a condition that you can never understand what is God. That is demonic life. That time is also coming. At the present moment, still a few men are interested, what is God. Arto artharti jijnasu jnani. But time is coming ahead when there will be no sense to understand God. That is the last stage of Kali-yuga, and at that time Kalki avatara, Kalki avatara will come. At that time there is no preaching of God consciousness, simply killing, simply killing. Kalki avatara with His sword will simply massacre. Then again Satya-yuga will come. Again golden age will come.

So this problem of fighting... We have to understand that fighting spirit is there in everyone. You cannot check it, you cannot stop it. We do not say stop. The Mayavadi philosopher says that "You stop this thing," but that is not possible. You cannot stop. Because you are living entity, you have got all these propensities. How you can stop it? But it should be utilized properly. That's all. You have got the fighting spirit.

How to utilize it? Yes. Narottama dasa Thakura recommends, krodha bhakta-dvesi-jane: "Those who are envious of God or God's devotee, you can utilize your anger upon them." You can utilize. The anger you cannot give up. Our business is how to utilize it. That is Krsna consciousness. Everything has to be utilized. We do not say that "You stop this, stop that." No. Krsna says, yat karosi, yaj juhosi, yad asnasi, yat tapasyasi kurusva tad mad-arpanam. Yat karosi. Krsna does not say that "You do this, you do that." He says, "Whatever you do, but the result should come to Me." So here the position is that Arjuna is to fight not for himself, but he is only thinking in terms of himself. He says, te avasthitah pramukhe dhartarastrah, yan eva hatva na jijivisamas: "They are my brothers, relatives. If they die... We do not wish to die. Now they are in my front. I have to kill them?" So still he is thinking in terms of his own satisfaction. He is preparing the background -- how materialistic persons, they think in the terms of personal satisfaction. So that has to be given up. Not personal satisfaction, Krsna's satisfaction. That is Krsna consciousness.

Whatever you do, it doesn't matter. You have to test it, whether you are doing it for Krsna. That is your perfection. Not only perfection, that is the perfection of your mission of human life. This human life is meant for that purpose. Because less than human form, the animal life, they are trained, perfection of sense gratification, personal satisfaction. They have no such feeling that "Other animals also..." When there is some eatable, one dog, he will think "How I can get it?" He will never think how other dogs also will be able to take it. This is not animal nature.

Animal nature means their own satisfaction. There is no question of "My friend, my family members." Even, they do not share even with their own children. You might have seen. If there is some foodstuff, the dog and the dog's children, everyone is trying to take in his own side. This is animal. So when this thing is changed for Krsna, that is human life. That is the distinction between animal life. So that is very difficult also. Therefore the whole education is there, Bhagavad-gita, how to teach people, "Act for Krsna, act for God, not for your personal interest. Then you'll be entangled." Yajnarthat karmanah anyatra loko 'yam karma-bandhanah [bg. 3.9]. Anything you do, it will produce some reaction, and you have to enjoy or suffer that reaction. Anything you do. But if you do for Krsna, there is no more reaction. That is your freedom. Yogah karmasu kausalam. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita. Yoga, when you are in contact with Krsna, that is the secret of success in this material world, working. Otherwise whatever you are doing, whatever you are working, it will produce some reaction and you will have to enjoy or suffer.

So here again, the same thing. Arjuna is thinking in terms, na caitad vidmah kataran no gariyo. So he is perplexed, "Which one, which side will be glorious? I shall stop fighting or not fighting?" In the next verses it will be seen... When you are in such perplexity, "what to do and what not to do," so in order to get right direction, you must approach the spiritual master. That will be done in the next verse. Arjuna will say that "I do not know. I am now perplexed. Although I know it is my duty as ksatriya to fight, still I am hesitating. I am hesitating in my duty. So therefore I am perplexed. So Krsna, therefore I submit to You." Formerly he was talking just like friend. Now he will be prepared to take lesson from Krsna.

So our the whole instruction of Bhagavad-gita is that: You should not act for yourself; you should simply act for Krsna. So even fighting for Krsna, or even doing something still abominable for Krsna... Just like the gopis. The gopis were captivated by Krsna. Krsna was a young boy, very beautiful, and the gopis were young girls. That is the superficial...

Actually, the gopis are eternal associates of Krsna. Ananda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhavitabhih. They are expansions of Krsna, Krsna's pleasure potency expansion. They are meant for Krsna's pleasure.

They are not ordinary women. But superficially, just to teach us how to love Krsna at the risk of anything...

Therefore gopis, when they were attracted by Krsna at midnight... Krsna was playing flute, and they became attracted and they left home. Some of them were locked up. They gave up their life even. They were so much attracted. Now this kind of behavior, if youngs girls... According to Vedic civilization, they cannot go out from the protection of father, husband or brother. No, they cannot go. Especially at midnight. So this was against Vedic principle. It is openly a kind of prostitution. But because it was done for Krsna, Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu, He recommends, ramya kacid upasana vraja-vadhubhih kalpita: "There is no more better type of worship than it was conceived by the vraja gopis. Vraja-vadhu. The most abominable.

For a young girl to leave the care of husband, father, and go to another young boy, according to Vedic culture, it is the most abominable. So still, because, it was, the center was Krsna, it is accepted as the highest type of worship. That is Krsna consciousness. We have to learn how to act only for Krsna, how to love only Krsna. Then our life is successful. And the human life... Because we have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago. Anadi karama-phale. Anadi means before the creation. We living entities, we are eternal. Even the creation is annihilated after millions and trillions of years, the living entities, they are not annihilated. Na hanyate hanyamane sarire [bg. 2.20]. They remain. So when this whole cosmic manifestation will be annihilated, the living entities will remain in the body of Visnu. Then when again another creation will take place, they will come out again to fulfill their desires. The real desire is how to go to home, back to Godhead.

So this chance is given. So if this chance is misused, this life, human form of life, it is very, very risky. Again we will have to accept the cycle of birth and death. And not only that, if we do not fulfill the mission of life, then again there will be annihilation of the whole creation and we will have to stay within the body of Visnu for millions and trillions of years. Again we will have to come. So therefore it is called anadi karama-phale. Anadi means "before the creation." This is going on. And to teach the befooled living entities, Krsna personally comes. Krsna is very much anxious to take us back to home, back to Godhead. Because we are part and parcel of Krsna.

Suppose if your son is loitering in the street, are you not anxious, "Oh, there may be some accident, and the poor boy will be killed." So you go, try to find out. Similarly, Krsna's position is like that. We are in this material world simply suffering life after life. Duhkhalayam asasvatam [bg. 8.15]. This place is miserable. But maya's illusion, we are taking this miserable condition of life as happiness. This is called maya. there is no happiness in this material world. Everything miserable.

The sooner we understand that everything is miserable in this material world and the sooner we prepare ourself to leave this material world and go back to home, back to..., that is our sense. Otherwise, whatever we are doing, we are simply being defeated. Because we are missing the aim. Na te viduh svartha-gatim hi visnum [sB 7.5.31]. Durasaya. We are, by hope against hope -- it will never be fulfilled -- we are trying to adjust things here to become happy without God consciousness. It will never be accompli... Na te viduh svartha-gatim hi visnum durasaya [sB 7.5.31]. Durasaya means "the hope which will never be fulfilled."

So all these materialistic persons, they are so fools, rascals, miscreants, they are increasing these material activities. They are thinking by this increasing material activities they will be happy. No. That is not possible. Durasaya ye... And their leaders... Andha yathandhair upaniyamanas te 'pisa-tantryam uru-damni baddhah. All of us are tied very tight, hands and legs, and we are thinking we are free, independent. By the laws of material nature... Still, we are thinking that we are independent. The scientist is trying to avoid God, independent by science. That is not possible. We are under the grip of the material nature.

Material nature means the agent of Krsna. Mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sa-caracaram [bg. 9.10]. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunair karmani sarvasah. So we are always in perplexity like Arjuna, what to do, what not to do. But if we take this principle, that "We must do for Krsna..." So take direction from Krsna and take direction from Krsna's representative and you do it; then there is no karma-bandhanah. Karmani nirdaheti kintu ca bhakti-bhajam. Otherwise, we are bound up by the reaction of every act. We cannot get out. So this perplexity, "Whether I shall fight or not fight," that will be explained that "Yes, you must fight for Krsna. Then it is all right." Kamah krsna-karmarpane. Just like Hanuman. He fought for Lord Ramacandra. He did not fight for himself. Similarly, Arjuna also, his flag is kapi-dhvaja, his flag is marked with Hanuman. He knew that. So Hanuman, a great fighter, fought with Ravana, not for his personal interest. The interest was how to get out Sitaji from the hands of Ravana, kill the whole family, and get out and let her sit down on the side of Ramacandra. This is the policy of Hanuman, devotees. And the Ravana policy is "Take away Sita from the clutches of Rama and enjoy it." This is Ravana policy. And the Hanuman policy is: "Take out Sita from the hands of Ravana and get her seated by the side of Rama." The same Sita. Sita means Laksmi. So Laksmi means Narayana's property, God's property.

So we should learn the policy that all these materialistic persons, Ravanas, they are trying to enjoy God's property. So some way or other... Of course we cannot fight with Ravana class man. We are not so strong. Therefore we have taken the policy of becoming a beggar: "Sir, you are so nice man. Please give us something. Give us something. Because you are spoiling your life by keeping God's property, you are going to hell. So some way or other, if you become a member, so you will be saved. You will be saved." That is our policy. We are not beggar. But it is a policy. Now we are not very strong to fight with the Ravanas; otherwise, we would have taken all the money by fighting. But that is not possible. We are not so strong. Therefore we have taken the policy of beggar.

Thank you very much. Hare Krsna. (end)

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Bhagavad-gita 2.6 -- London, August 6, 1973

Beggar · January 23, 2008

To Fall or Not to Fall, That is the Question

BY: SUNANDA DAS (ACBSP)

Jan 22, NORTH CAROLINA (SUN) —

I would like to thank Mahesh Raja Prabhu, in his

response to my article

, for elucidating his views so clearly and thoroughly. I have read his articles and others already on the Sampradaya Sun, and many points make sense from both sides. However, your recent response (as well as re-reading your previous articles and particularly the quotes from Srila Prabhupada) has removed any lingering confusion that I had on this issue. I basically agree with everything you say. I would like to make a few comments, though, as I think you are philosophically incorrect and speculative on a few important points. And I have a few additional thoughts to add as well.

First of all, I don’t know what you meant by saying that my article was “highly questionable”. It was not meant to be a philosophical presentation of my understanding of the issue, and purposefully so, thus it was not an “article” per se. It was simply a presentation of pertinent quotes from Srila Prabhupada’s books, the ultimate authority in philosophical forums, on the fall of the jiva. Thus, the title, “Judge for Yourself - Srila Prabhupada on the Jiva Issue”. I don’t think you would say that Srila Prabhupada’s books are “highly questionable”, so what do you mean? It makes me wonder whether you even bothered to read all the quotes I provided in their entirety.

That I am confused is already admitted, but aren’t we all to one degree or another on various inconceivable concepts related to the Absolute Truth? However, I don’t know why you honed in on the particular concept of “Nitya-baddha means ‘we do not know’” as the focus of my confusion. I simply quoted Srila Prabhupada and left it up to the readers to decide, stating that understanding our siddhanta is an important aspect of progressive Krishna consciousness and properly representing our disciplic succession. I never personally stated anything regarding the meaning of nitya-baddha. In relation to the jiva issue. This point was made by Srila Prabhupada:

“The progressive devotee of the Lord must inquire from the bona fide spiritual master how living entities merged in the body of the Lord again come back at the time of creation. There are two kinds of living entities. There are the ever-liberated, unconditioned living beings as well as the ever-conditioned living beings”.

(S.B. 2.8.22)

Frankly, I feel you are taking out of context our philosophy of SIMULTANEOUS ONENESS AND DIFFERENCE by falsely expanding on it to also mean “we fall but do not fall” at the same time. This is a gross misuse of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s treatise on the oneness and difference of the Supreme Lord and His diverse energies or the individual soul and the Supreme Soul. This is a complete concoction. What has that got to do with being simultaneously fallen and not fallen? Where did you ever hear Srila Prabhupada use it in this context? Where did you ever hear Srila Prabhupada, or any acharya for that matter, ever say “we fall but do not fall”? Of course, we are all spiritual by constitution and we are always with Krishna in one sense, that’s the meaning of the Absolute Truth, but the fact is we do fall, though we don’t know when from the point of view of material time, as you have shown.

I still find that the majority of the quotes from Srila Prabhupada’s purports in the Srimad Bhagavatam do not indicate that the fallen jiva was originally in the spiritual world with Krishna. Rather, it is regularly indicated that no one falls from Vaikuntha. This is very important to note. Logically one can then question that if no one falls from Vaikuntha then where did WE all come from? Or, following your line of thought, one could conclude that some of the jivas in Vaikuntha fell at one time and then returned, or are in the process of returning, to Vaikuntha, never to return to this material world again, while others are in the process of falling. So, does that mean that the word nitya-mukta can also mean liberated from a time that is indeterminable in material history like the nitya-baddha? If you’re eternally liberated, doesn’t it mean just that? The scenario of being eternally liberated, then falling down, then becoming eternally liberated again is illogical. And to say we are liberated and conditioned simultaneously is nowhere stated in shastra or by any previous acharyas. It is logical, however, and based on our philosophy and shastra that karma is not eternal, for a conditioned jiva to become eternally liberated upon reaching the spiritual world (“…When one goes there, he never comes back. That is My supreme abode” -B.G. 8.21)

Many of your quotes are taken from Srila Prabhupada’s letters and conversations and seem to present a slightly different perspective on the matter from Srila Prabhupada’s books. What they do clarify is that it is POSSIBLE to fall from Vaikuntha, otherwise there is no meaning to the free will of the living entity. Words like “POSSIBLE” and statements like “USUALLY does not take place” and “there is a chance of falling down EVEN from the personal association of God” and “Yes, they (the residents of Vaikuntha) can misuse it (their independence) ALSO” describe this scenario. From these explanations by Srila Prabhupada we certainly could not conclude that ALL conditioned souls fell from Vaikuntha. You quoted a letter to Rayarama, “…There are instances (my emphasis) where marginal energy jiva souls have fallen from the spiritual world, just like Jaya and Vijaya…”. But this is rare. Otherwise, why use the word “instances”. I seriously doubt that, taking into consideration the infinite number of jivas in the material world, such a vast number could be considered an instance. This is indicated in this purport by Srila Prabhupada relating to the story of Jaya and Vijaya:

“From authoritative sources it can be discerned that associates of Lord Visnu who descend from Vaikuntha do not actually fall. They come with the purpose of fulfilling the desire of the Lord, and their descent to this material world is comparable to that of the Lord. The Lord comes to this material world through the agency of His internal potency, and similarly, when a devotee or associate of the Lord descends to this material world, he does so through the action of the spiritual energy. Any pastime conducted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead is an arrangement by yoga Maya, not mahamaya. Therefore it is to be understood that when Jaya and Vijaya descended to this material world, they came because there was something to be done for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuntha”. (S.B. 7.1.35)

Balavidya Prabhu has nicely expressed the point in his article, “Envy Rules, Kindly Follow”, that the likelihood of anyone leaving Vaikuntha would almost be impossible to imagine. The quotes below from Srila Prabhupada would also seem to indicate that the atmosphere of Vaikuntha is such that no one would ever want to leave:

“All the residents of Vaikunthaloka know perfectly well that their master is Narayana, or Krsna, and that they are all His servants. They are all self-realized souls who are nitya-mukta, everlastingly liberated. Although they could conceivably declare themselves Narayana or Visnu, they never do so; they always remain Krsna conscious and serve the Lord faithfully. Such is the atmosphere of Vaikunthaloka”. (S.B. 6.1.34-36)

“Such planets, being spiritual, are in fact transcendental to the material modes; therefore they are constituted in the mode of unalloyed goodness only. The conception of spiritual bliss (brahmananda) is fully present in those planets. Each of them is eternal, indestructible and free from all kinds of inebrieties experienced in the material world. Each of them is self-illuminating and more powerfully dazzling than (if we can imagine) the total sunshine of millions of mundane suns. The inhabitants of those planets are liberated from birth, death, old age and diseases and have full knowledge of everything; they are all godly and free from all sorts of material hankerings. They have nothing to do there except to render transcendental loving service to the Supreme Lord Narayana, who is the predominating Deity of such Vaikuntha planets…The Lord and His eternal servitors in the transcendental kingdom all have eternal forms which are auspicious, infallible, spiritual and eternally youthful. In other words, there is no birth, death, old age and disease. That eternal land is full of transcendental enjoyment and full of beauty and bliss. This very fact is also corroborated in this verse of Srimad-Bhagavatam, and the transcendental nature is described as amrta. As described in the Vedas, the Supreme Lord is the Lord of immortality, or in other words, the Lord is immortal, and because He is the Lord of immortality He can award immortality to His devotees. In the Bhagavad Gita (8.16) the Lord also assures that whoever may go to His abode of immortality shall never return to this mortal land of threefold miseries”. (S.B. 2.6.18)

In further light of this concept (eternally liberated souls falling from Vaikuntha) would we go so far as to think the unthinkable: Can Srila Prabhupada fall down? Such an idea is offensive to the highest degree and completely unimaginable. To say yes means to be possessed of a hellish mentality. And are not ALL the residents of the spiritual world on the same level as Srila Prabhupada? Are they not all nitya-siddhas?

“A pure living entity in his original spiritual existence is fully conscious of his constitutional position as an eternal servitor of the Lord. All souls who are situated in such pure consciousness are liberated, and therefore they eternally live in bliss and knowledge in the various Vaikuntha planets in the spiritual sky. When the material creation is manifested, it is not meant for them. The eternally liberated souls are called nitya-muktas, and they have nothing to do with the material creation. The material creation is meant for rebellious souls who are not prepared to accept subordination under the Supreme Lord”. (S.B. 3.5.29) Apparently, the contradiction has been resolved by Srila Prabhupada’s use of words like possible, even, also, etc. and thus both scenarios are true, but in the ultimate issue, according to your own analysis, fall from Vaikuntha is the exception and not the rule. And while it may be of little importance to understand where the “other” jivas who fell came from and how they fell, the quotes below repeated from my “article”, with an additional substantiating quote, may shed some light on this as well as the so-called simultaneously “fallen and not fallen” condition.

“The pure status of consciousness, or Krsna consciousness, exists in the beginning; just after creation, consciousness is not polluted. The more one becomes materially contaminated, however, the more consciousness becomes obscured. In pure consciousness one can perceive a slight reflection of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. As in clear, unagitated water, free from impurities, one can see everything clearly, so in pure consciousness, or Krsna consciousness, one can see things as they are. One can see the reflection of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and one can see his own existence as well. This state of consciousness is very pleasing, transparent and sober. In the beginning, consciousness is pure”. (S.B. 3.26.22)

“In the beginning, from clear consciousness, or the pure state of Krsna consciousness, the first contamination sprang up. This is called false ego, or identification of the body as self. The living entity exists in the natural state of Krsna consciousness, but he has marginal independence, and this allows him to forget Krsna. Originally, pure Krsna consciousness exists, but because of misuse of marginal independence there is a chance of forgetting Krsna… From the status of pure consciousness, the false ego is born because of misuse of independence. We cannot argue about why false ego arises from pure consciousness. Factually, there is always the chance that this will happen, and therefore one has to be very careful.”

(S.B. 3.26.23-24)

"Before acquiring material designations, the living entity is supremely pure. Even though he is not engaged in serving the Supreme Lord, he remains situated in the neutral position of santa-rasa due to his marginal nature. Though the living entity born from the marginal potency does not at that time exhibit a taste for serving the Lord due to a lack of knowledge of self-realization, his direct propensity of serving the Supreme Lord nevertheless remains within him in a dormant state. Though the indirect propensity of material enjoyment, which is contrary to the service of the Lord, is not found in him at that time, indifference to the service of Hari and the seed of material enjoyment, which follows that state of indifference, are nevertheless present within him. The living entity, who belongs to the marginal potency, cannot remain indifferent forever by subduing both devotional and non-devotional propensities. He therefore contemplates unconstitutional activities from his marginal position. As a sleeping person dreams that he is active in the physical world without actually being involved in activities, when the dormant indifferent living entity of the marginal potency exhibits even a little apathy to the service of the Supreme Lord and situates himself in a neutral, unchanging condition for even a little time, he is infected by impersonalism. That is why the conditioned soul desires to merge in the impersonal Brahman, thus exhibiting his mind's fickle nature. But due to neglecting the eternal service of the Lord and thereby developing the quality of aversion to the Lord, he cannot remain fixed in that position. In this way aversion to the Lord breaks his concentration of mind and establishes him as the master of this world of enjoyment. (From '

Brahmana & Vaisnava

' by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati)

"A jiva is a spark of the eternal consciousness. A jiva is first situated on the line of demarcation between the material world and the spiritual world. There those jivas who do not forget their relation with Krsna derive the power of consciousness and are drawn into the spiritual world, they come in eternal touch with Krsna and enjoy beatitude arising from the worship of Krsna. And those who forget Krsna and give themselves up to maya's enjoyments, maya with her own force draws them into herself. It is from that very moment that we fall into the misery of this world."

(Jaiva Dharma, chapter 7 - Bhaktivinode Thakur)

gHari · January 23, 2008

Thank you for the source, Sarva gattah. My fingers must have been tongue-tied the last time I tried searching for it:

London, August 6, 1973

"That is KRSNa consciousness. We have to learn how to act only for KRSNa, how to love only KRSNa. Then our life is successful. And the human life... Because

we have also come down from VaikuNTha some millions and millions of years ago.

AnAdi karama-phale. AnAdi means before the creation. We living entities, we are eternal. Even the creation is annihilated after millions and trillions of years, the living entities, they are not annihilated. Na hanyate hanyamAne zarIre [bg. 2.20]. They remain. So when this whole cosmic manifestation will be annihilated, the living entities will remain in the body of ViSNu. Then when again another creation will take place, they will come out again to fulfill their desires. The real desire is how to go to home, back to Godhead."

Beggar · January 23, 2008

Thank you for the source, Sarva gattah. My fingers must have been tongue-tied the last time I tried searching for it...

This quote is accurate according to the transcript at:

http://www.prabhupadavani.org/Gita/web/text/GT039.html

Thanks Shakti-Fan this is very informative reading and great katha

...It always sounds more like harrassment to me.

Who's harrassing who here?

I know that there's a lot of wordage on some of these posts but if you're going to comment, please read more carefully.

Sarva gattah · January 23, 2008

SUNANDA DAS (ACBSP) and others must understand the straight forward meaning of what Srila Prabhupada has clearly said and PERSONALY told me in early 1973.

Srila Prabhupada - "“Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila”

When one chooses to forget Krsna, one is unwilling to serve Krishna as their perpetual Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha bodily self and therefore, it is that aversion to Krishna that causes the the living entity to manifest a secondary version of themselves (nitya baddha) that imagines, thinks and dream they are no longer in Vaikuntha or even Goloka.

This is possible due to the marginal status of the living entity where the free will to be or not be with Krishna eternally exists.

That secondary self is the nitya-baddha jiva condition that enters the mahat-tattva of divided time and space and is given material form (vessels) by Maha -Vishnu to live out their non Krishna conscious imagination"

Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated?…” You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

The full expression and complete potential of ALL marginal living entities is their perpetual ’svarupa’ body that is eternally situated and established within Goloka or Vaikuntha.

Therefore it can then be said that the marginal living entities who have miss-used their free will and chose to enter the maha-tattva, are only temporarily trapped within the material creation, while their undying ‘svarupa’ body is currently not realized by them within the 'perpetual present' of Goloka and Vaikuntha. This is because of being consciously absorbed and restricted to their baddha jiva conscious imagination that is trapped within the divided time of past, present and future within the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu"

Srila Prabhupada: You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, “I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna’s servant. Eternal servant. That’s all. lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

Srila Prabhupada - “Our contact with matter is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness, we break the dream. Similarly, we can break this situation” Srila Prabhupada lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 2.9.1

Srila Prabhupada - “Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things”. Letter to Madhuvisa Swami

Srila Prabhupada - ‘Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Srila Prabhupada - “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krishna in His Lila or sport” Letter to Madhuvisa Swami

Srila Prabhupada - “Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only” (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – ‘So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what his relationship with Krishna is, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada –“Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what your relationship with Krishna is automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM, THINK OR IMAGINE WE LEAVE. In this way the mahat-tattva is the destination for where such dreams go.

It is there in the material creation that the baddha jiva's are provided with temporary bodily forms created by Maha-Vishnu who is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva or material creation aspect of the Spiritual Sky.

In this way it is Srila Prabhupada explaining to us in very simple English that we all originate from Goloka.

Shakti-Fan · January 23, 2008

This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM, THINK OR IMAGINE WE LEAVE.

I accept the two different viewpoints, that is the viewpoint from this world and the viewpoint from Goloka Vrndavana. But I don't think it's proper to take the next step and make the above statement. You may think that Srila Prabhupada inferred that conclusion but despite all your quotes you have not shown anywhere where he would say this. Srila Prabhupada was giving the Goloka Vrndavana viewpoint because that was the level of his consciousness. Until we are on that level of realisation we should not give what amounts to an interpretation and then expand on what he is saying. That kind of expansion means to "add" something to the philosophy and we have been strongly warned by Srila Prabhupada not to do this.

Sarva gattah · January 23, 2008

The following is taken from another Vaishnava website -

"SUNANDA DAS (ACBSP) and others must understand the straightforward meaning of what Srila Prabhupada has clearly said in 1972 and PERSONALY told me in early 1973.

Srila Prabhupada - "“Formerly we were with Krsna in His Lila”

Srila Prabhupada - We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on August 6, 1973 ...73/08/06 London, Bhagavad-gita 2.6

Srila Prabhupada -"You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

The background on where the 'origin of the jiva' debate began in Australia in 1972 -

The above is the correct understanding of how we all came to the material world, this I have understood since 1972 when we travelled around Australia in a double decker bus with Madhudvisa (then) Swami, Caru Prabhu and many other devotee's.

Caru Prabhu was with us only for part of the preaching mission to Towns and Villages around Australia however was there when the ‘origin of the jiva’ discussions began.

It was at 83 Hereford Street Glebe Temple near the Sydney Uni in April 1972 we began our preaching mission up North. There were 14 of us on the double Decker Bus. We had written in big letters on the side ‘The Hare Krishna Movement, The Positive Alternative’ spreading the mission of Lord Caitanya for the first time on Australian soil.

In April 1972 we left Sydney Temple for the trip of a live time that had probably taken us thousands of life times to achieve such a privilege. We were on the very first preaching mission to every Towns and Villages around Australia

The devotees on this first travelling preaching mission were

Madhudvisa Swami

Caru (only came part of the way)

Balarama,

Chittahari,

Yasamatinandana,

Dvaipayana,

Krsna Caitanya (Ted Spencer who the previous year was the world champion for surf board ridding),

Kuntiboja,

Kainaram

Srngi (now Muralidhar_das) (meet up with in Cairns)

Krishna Prema (meet up with in Cairns)

Gauragopala Brahmacari’s,

plus one or two names that are not remembered.

The ‘boys’ (because that’s what we were back then) lived in the Brahmacari quarters, which were the bottom deck of the bus (except for the bus drivers who had a private space upstairs), while the second deck (upstairs) was the Brahmatarini quarters were

Ambika,

Arti,

Kamarupa (who joined us in Cairns) and

Sukla devi-dasi’s resided.

Krsna Caitanya dasa in the early '70s was the great Ted Spencer, who famously declared: "When I surf, I dance for Krishna", urged on in his heats by a full Hare Krishna cheersquad." (Bells Beach, Australia - the Age Newspaper). Other famous surfers like Nat Young also spent time with us

It was on this bus trip a devotee suggested we came from the Brahmajyoti and started the ‘origin of the jiva’ controversy. That idea was quickly rejected in a letter from Prabhupada that eventually was sent to all Temple Presidents in Australia. It was a hot topic back then in 1972 as well but Prabhupada was personally present to guide us

The Srimad Bhagavatam classes therefore delved deeply into the souls origin for months as we travelled around Australian. We new this was a very auspicious time and that the teachings of Srila Prabhupada we were hearing, is the revelation of long kept secrets and explanations that told us about the universe and it's creator Lord Krishna.

On the way we chanted on the streets of Newcastle and all Towns in-between there and Brisbane, such as Kempsey, Coffs Harbour, Grafton, Ballina, Lismore and the hippie centre of Australia, Nimbin. But by far the spookiest place we went to was Byron Bay; Kainaram claimed he had seen the ghost of a dead girl who had been killed by a train many years ago. On many occasions people had claimed to pick up this lonely little girl to take her home only to find when they got to there home she had mysteriously disappeared. People would go up to the house to tell the little girls parents only to find she had died many years before.

We also ran into Tusta Krsna (then) Swami, who was in Bryon at the time with Siddhasvarupa (then) Swami however, we never meet Siddhasvarupa who had his own agenda and independent preaching style separate from ISKCON

After Bryon with all the hippies we went to Murwillumbah where we chanted in the streets for the first time. Soon (1977) we would establish the farm New Govardhana there.

We then went inland to Lismore, then Armadale where there was a university. We meet an Indian Professor who invited us to the Uni where we chanted and distributed Prasadam. Many Indian families lived there and some of us went to their houses to speak from Bhagavad Gita. Again the origin of the soul came up and Madhudvisa had to explain that we do not originate from the impersonal Brahmajyoti but have come down from Vaikuntha. It was explained that our 'present awareness' is only within the past, present and future of the material world. And yes, we are actually in the material world or mahat-tattva due to having only that awareness. So clearly, we are IN the material world, even if, as Prabhupada explains, our eternal 'svarupa' is perpetually situated in Vaikuntha within the 'eternal present' that is only existent there. This is because, while in the material world, the 'awareness of our eternal relationship with Krishna is not seen, remember in our present state of consciousness, does not exist, just like it 'appears' the sun does not exist, due to the cloud cover, or by the presents of night. Our position in the material world way shoddier than that analogy because we at least we can understand that the sun exists behind the cloud cover or when it is nighttime, but the conditioned soul does not understand, know, see, or is aware of their eternal relationship with Krishna.

Therefore our attendance in the material world is very real. And to each of us, IT IS NOT a dream state, we do NOT experience the material world as a dream state while we are here, it is real, as real as being in Vaikuntha, however we experience everything as temporary. Actually we ALL still in Vaikuntha but are 'consciously' caught up within the past, present and future of the material creation (mahat-tattva) that has covered our awareness to the 'eternal present' of Vaikuntha and Goloka, like a cloud covers the view of the Sun"

Srila Prabhupada - "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered.Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada however, also stresses that presently we are caught in past present and future. That we can't deny. We are experiencing Krsna, the same time factor as the eternal present, in terms of past present future. It is not enough to just say there is only the eternal present and pretend we are free from time while we continue to revolve in birth and death. A prisoner behind bars for twenty years may shut his eyes and pretend he his release date has already arrived but the fact is he is still behind bars.

The material experience of time as past present future is an illusion but it is also very real.

One minute we can be on top of the world with wealth, fame, adoration and family, the very next, we have left this body and moved on to another like Jimi Hendrix a year earlier

The Indian women cooked up some amazing food preparations that we offered to Srila Prabhupada.

That place was very, very cold. Every morning, even in the middle of winter, we had cold showers behind the bus. To give one an idea, Chittahari was walking to the bus one cold morning with what we thought was a board, it was his underwear (copings) frozen solid!

We eventually arrived in Toowoomba in Queensland and chanted to the redneck out back Queenslanders who thought we were some alien invasion from another planet!

From there we went to the Gold Coast made up of the major towns of Coolangatta, Burleigh heads, Surfers Paradise and Southport, where we chanted, distributed Prasadam and spoke to the enormous crowds that gathered around us on the streets and on the beaches. Many of the devotees on the Bus like Balarama and Krsna Caitanya where surfer board riders, they attracted many young people to learn about Krishna and take prasad. Especially Krsna Caitanya who was a well-known celebrity

Then we went to Beenleigh, in-between the Gold Coast and Brisbane. The day we arrived in Brisbane, we chanted on the city streets and were on page two of the Couramail the next day. The headline was ' The Hare Krishna's have arrived with the chant of peace" Brisbane was also having their annual 'celebratory show' that attracted tens of thousands of people. We chanted at the front gates thousands of people saw the Hare Krishna’s for the first time, many receiving BTG.

It was on this bus trip a that a devotee suggested and kept insisting we all originated from the impersonal Brahmajyoti and that no one can fall down from Goloka starting the ‘origin of the jiva’ controversy. The debate ragged for weeks on the bus that idea was quickly rejected in a letter we would eventually receive from Prabhupada that was sent to all Temple Presidents in Australia. It was a hot topic back then in 1972 as well, but we had Prabhupada who personally guided us to the correct understanding.

The Srimad Bhagavatam classes therefore delved deeply into the souls origin for months as we travelled around Australian. We new this was a very auspicious time and that the teachings of Srila Prabhupada revealed to us the disclosure of the long kept secret of the meaning of existence and the purpose of all life. Srila Prabhupada in his beautiful Srimad Bhagavatam and Bhagavad Gita was revealing all this to us, opening our eyes to the truth about the universe and it's creator Lord Krishna.

We never had the full version of the Gita in those days, only the abridged edition with the forward by Alan Ginsburg.

Sarva gattah · January 23, 2008

Those years were extraordinary. Dwaip cooked up beautiful offerings to Srila Prabhupada and Lord Caitanya and Nityananda while Citta, Balarama and myself were the Bus Drivers. Yaso and Kuntiboja were the inquisitive philosopher, well, actually we all were. Many times we discussed the origins of the jiva that lead to the famous “Crow-and-Tal-Fruit Logic” letter Srila Prabhupada sent to his inquisitive Australian devotees.

<?xml:namespace prefix = u1 /><u1:p></u1:p>You will find many devotees in ISKCON will not discuss this subject because of that letter however, that was then. Nearly 40 years ago. I am convinced Srila Prabhupada never meant that we never discuss this subject. In fact he has said in other letters we should understand this subject and that we were previously actively engaged in Krishna Lila in our original constitutional position.

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As far as I am concerned, we are all therefore still in Vaikuntha but are 'consciously' caught up within the past, present and future of the material creation that has covered the 'eternal present' of Vaikuntha and Goloka like a cloud covers the Sun. Many devotees in ISKCON will not discuss this subject because of that letter however, that was then, nearly 40 years ago. I am convinced Srila Prabhupada never meant we never discuss this subject, in fact he has said in other letters and lectures we should understand this subject and that we were previously actively engaged in Krishna Lila before coming to this material world.

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Actually the understanding on that bus was we ALL still in Vaikuntha but are 'consciously' caught up within the past, present and future of the material creation that has covered the 'eternal present' of Vaikuntha and Goloka like a cloud covers the Sun"

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We just new we were very fortunate to be on that bus hearing such wonders of creation. Some of us asked 'what did we deserve to hear the Srimad Bhagavatam, that Madhudvisa read from one of Prabhupada’s original volumes he brought with him in 1965 to America'. Some of us speculated we were yogis, mystics, devotees and even demons from the Satya-yuga. Madhudvisa laughed and simply said 'It is by the causeless mercy of Lord Caitanya and Srila Prabhupada that the seeds of Bhakti are now sown in our hearts.

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In those days we would chant on the streets for 8 to 10 hours a day. One night at the show grounds we chanted to 10pm because there where so many people. We did this through all the Towns and cities as we proceeded up north to Cairns. We went through all the Towns like Bundaberg, Mackay, Harvey Bay where we had big feast with hundreds of curious locals attended, (the Americans call them rednecks, we call them yobbo's). Gladstone, Rockhampton, Arles beach, Townsville, where we where on the front page of the main paper, actually all papers in all Towns were doing articles on us that kept Chittahari Prabhu very busy doing interviews and arranging interviews with Madhudvisa

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At Kuranda, just outside of Cains, Madhudvisa lead a blissful kirtan through the hippie community and hundreds of them, most naked, joined in chanting Hare Krishna and dancing. Devotees before this had never visited anywhere outside of Sydney or Melbourne. We were the pioneers at the very beginning of Lord Caitanya's very rare Golden Age in Kali-yuga.

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We celebrated Janmastami at a Buddhist colony not far from Kuranda; we loaded as many hippies as we could in the double decker Hare Krishna bus, all chanting Hare Krishna and dancing 'on the bus' to the excellent blissful kirtans with Madhudvisa leading. IT WAS VERY SPECIAL

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The following day was Vysa-puj and Madhudvisa had lit a candle under Srila Prabhupada’s photo, the aura, bliss, love and security from that photo permeated the entire bus with an amazing mood of reverence and Krishna Consciousness.

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They were amazing days and there was a childish innocence about those days; In fact we thought Madhudvisa was old (he was 24 and Balarama was 29). The rest of us where still teenagers. The present generation I don't think realize how young we were in those beginning years of ISKCON.

<u1:p></u1:p>

There was also no hanky panky going on, everyone was very sincere, very dedicated and very attached to Prabhupada. We only ate offerings to the Deities and absolutely nothing else (We had a beautiful photo of the Panca-tattva with a wonderful Photo of Prabhupada at their feet), no one even dreamed of eating anything unprepared by devotees or even drink soft drinks in those blissful days.

<u1:p></u1:p>

As far as I am concerned, our ‘svarupa’ is always in Vaikuntha but we are now 'consciously' caught up within the past, present and future of the material creation due to our desire and choice not to be with Krishna, that has covered the 'eternal present' of Vaikuntha and Goloka like a cloud covers the Sun.

<u1:p></u1:p>

It was in the Temple room at 83 Hereford St. Sydney in early in 1973 that Srila Prabhupada and myself began discussing the paintings of Lord Caitanya and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswat Thakur that I innocently put on the step of his Vysasana to keep them off the floor while I was cleaning. Srila Prabhupada laughed and laughed saying that is not where those Personalities go, the emotion in his eyes and his humility I will never forget. It was during his gentle chastisement of me he said –

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Srila Prabhupada – “You came here away from such wonderful association of Lord Caitanya and Krsna, and now you have come back, when you go back home back to Godhead you will understand all this”

<u1:p></u1:p>

For Hari Sauri’s benefit who knows me well, including all the struggles I have had, NO their was only Prabhupada and myself in the room, everyone else, including Hari Sauri, was out on Sankirtan. This was an intimate personal relationship between my Spiritual Master and myself that others may doubt, but they will NEVER take such a wonderful PASTIME away from me, I will remember this to my last days on this planet.<u1:p></u1:p>

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It is that kind of association that rivets ones understanding that can never be swayed by any other argument.

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When one chooses to forget Krishna, one is unwilling to serve Krishna as their perpetual Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha bodily self and therefore, it is that aversion to Krishna that causes the the living entity to manifest a secondary version of themselves (nitya baddha) that imagines, thinks and dream they are no longer in Vaikuntha or even Goloka.

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This is possible due to the marginal status of the living entity, where exists the free will to be, or not be with Krishna, eternally exists.

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That secondary nitya-baddha jiva condition enters the mahat-tattva of divided time and space and is given material form (vessels) by Maha -Vishnu to live out their non Krishna conscious imagination"

<u1:p></u1:p>

Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated?” You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

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The full expression and complete potential of ALL marginal living entities is their perpetual ’svarupa’ body that is eternally situated and established within Goloka or Vaikuntha within the realm of the 'eternal present' that is unaffected by the past, present and future of divided time that exists in the material creation or mahat-tattva.

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Therefore it can then be said that the marginal living entities who have miss-used their free will and chose to enter the maha-tattva, are only temporarily trapped within the material creation, while their undying ‘svarupa’ body is currently not realized by them within the 'perpetual present' of Goloka and Vaikuntha. This is because of being consciously absorbed and restricted to their baddha jiva conscious imagination that is trapped within the divided time of past, present and future within the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu"

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Srila Prabhupada - You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

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Srila Prabhupada - “Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, “I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna’s servant. Eternal servant. That’s all. lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Srimad Bhagavatam 2.9.1

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Srila Prabhupada - “Our contact with matter is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness, we break the dream. Similarly, we can break this situation” Srila Prabhupada lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Srimad Bhagavatam 2.9.1

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Srila Prabhupada - “Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things”. Letter to Madhudvisa Swami

Srila Prabhupada - ‘Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

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Srila Prabhupada - “We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krishna in His Lila or sport” Letter to Madhudvisa Swami

Srila Prabhupada - “Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only” (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

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Srila Prabhupada – ‘So svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what his relationship with Krishna is, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

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Srila Prabhupada –“Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what your relationship with Krishna is automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada - ‘No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

<u1:p></u1:p>

This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM, THINK OR IMAGINE WE LEAVE. In this way the mahat-tattva is the destination for where such dreams go.

It is there in the material creation that the baddha jiva's are provided with temporary bodily forms created by Maha-Vishnu who is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva or material creation aspect of the Spiritual Sky.

<u1:p></u1:p>

In this way it is Srila Prabhupada explaining to us in very simple English that we all originate from Goloka.

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Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

Srila Prabhupada -“The living entity should become purified and regain his svarupa, his original identity” Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48

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By your fallen servant Gauragopala dasa ACBSP"

Sarva gattah · January 24, 2008

"Actually there is no birth of the jivas. They are all eternal, like Baladeva Prabhu Himself. Many things in the shastra is said to convince the jivas conditioned in the material world, that their real home is Goloka. There are so many things that sastra has told us, whereas in reality, in Goloka Vrndavana dhama, due to the 'eternal presents', these things will be seen in another way".

Shakti-Fan · January 24, 2008

"Actually there is no birth of the jivas. They are all eternal, like Baladeva Prabhu Himself. Many things in the shastra is said to convince the jivas conditioned in the material world, that their real home is Goloka. There are so many things that sastra has told us, whereas in reality, in Goloka Vrndavana dhama, due to the 'eternal presents', these things will be seen in another way".

Srila Narayana Maharaja,

It is told like this in the scriptures, but actually there is no birth of the jivas. They are all eternal, like Baladeva Prabhu Himself. This is only said to convince ordinary jivas, conditioned souls. There are so many things that sastra has told us, whereas in reality, in Goloka Vrndavana dhama, these things will be seen in another way.

pla·gia·rism [url="http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/"][pley-juh-riz-uhm, -jee-uh-riz-] –noun <table class="luna-Ent"><tbody><tr><td class="dn" valign="top">1.</td><td valign="top">the unauthorized use or close imitation of the language and thoughts of another author and the representation of them as one's own original work. </td></tr></tbody></table> <table class="luna-Ent"><tbody><tr><td class="dn" valign="top">2.</td><td valign="top">something used and represented in this manner.

<cite>

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)

Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.</cite>

</td></tr></tbody></table>

CCC · January 24, 2008

"Actually there is no birth of the jivas. They are all eternal, like Baladeva Prabhu Himself. Many things in the shastra is said to convince the jivas conditioned in the material world, that their real home is Goloka. There are so many things that sastra has told us, whereas in reality, in Goloka Vrndavana dhama, due to the 'eternal presents', these things will be seen in another way".

A Tibetan Monk (Kaula) told me and show me a scripture where it says that all comes from Goloka, from the Absolute and Supreme Dimension. He never used the name Goloka because is not vaishnava but is the same thing, He told me that there are three main dimension. In Vaishnava's words: the Material World(gross and sutil) the Spiritual World(Vaikhunta, Brahmaloka) and the Supreme and Absolute Dimension which all is originated from there. Also told me that Lord Krsna, Lord Rama; is the same Suprem Person, ParamShiva with his Consort ParamShakti or Radharani, Sita. Krsna is the Supreme and Absolute Lord and Radharani is his Supreme and Absolute Consciousness. He also told me that the Suprem Lord is not impersonal. Also He told me about Lord Gauranga as an Incarnation of the Supreme Lord, etc....

Beggar · January 24, 2008

"Actually there is no birth of the jivas. They are all eternal, like Baladeva Prabhu Himself. Many things in the shastra is said to convince the jivas conditioned in the material world, that their real home is Goloka. There are so many things that sastra has told us, whereas in reality, in Goloka Vrndavana dhama, due to the 'eternal presents', these things will be seen in another way".

pla·gia·rism [pley-juh-riz-uhm, -jee-uh-riz-] –noun <table class="luna-Ent"><tbody><tr><td class="dn" valign="top">1.</td><td valign="top">the unauthorized use or close imitation of the language and thoughts of another author and the representation of them as one's own original work. </td></tr></tbody></table> <table class="luna-Ent"><tbody><tr><td class="dn" valign="top">2.</td><td valign="top">something used and represented in this manner.

<cite>

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)

Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.</cite>

</td></tr></tbody></table>

The tendency of what Srila Prabhupada called our "fertile brains" to add or subtract anything to the philosophy must be controlled. Vaco vegam -

[Nectar of Instruction Verse One].

Ashvatama · January 25, 2008

Srila Prabhupada - We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973 ...

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Srila Narayana Maharaja - "It is told like this in the scriptures, but actually there is no birth of the jivas. They are all eternal, like Baladeva Prabhu Himself. This is only said to convince ordinary jivas, conditioned souls. There are so many things that sastra has told us, whereas in reality, in Goloka Vrndavana dhama, these things will be seen in another way".

Translation - Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

"Actually there is no birth of the jivas. They are all eternal, like Baladeva Prabhu Himself. Many things in the shastra is said to convince the jivas conditioned in the material world, that their real home is Goloka. There are so many things that sastra has told us, whereas in reality, in Goloka Vrndavana dhama, due to the 'eternal presents', these things will be seen in another way".

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Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that WE ONLY DREAM, THINK OR IMAGINE WE LEAVE.

"Again the origin of the soul came up and Madhudvisa had to explain that we do not originate from the impersonal Brahmajyoti but have come down from Vaikuntha. It was explained that our 'present awareness' is only within the past, present and future of the material world. And yes, we are actually in the material world or mahat-tattva due to having only that awareness.

So clearly, we are IN the material world, it is actually not a dream state to us, even if, as Prabhupada explains, our eternal 'svarupa' is perpetually situated in Vaikuntha within the 'eternal present' that is only existent there.

This is because, while in the material world, the 'awareness of our eternal relationship with Krishna is not seen or remember in our present state of consciousness, therefore it 'appears' that it does not exist, just like it 'appears' the sun does not exist, due to the cloud cover, or by the presents of night.

Our position in the material world way shoddier than that analogy because we at least we can understand that the sun exists behind the cloud cover or when it is nightime, but the conditioned soul does not understand, know, see, or is aware of their eternal relationship with Krishna.

Therefore our attendance in the material world is very real. And to each of us, IT IS NOT a dream state, we do NOT experience the material world as a dream state while we are here, it is real, as real as being in Vaikuntha, however we experience everything as temporary.

Actually we ALL still in Vaikuntha but are 'consciously' caught up within the past, present and future of the material creation (mahat-tattva) that has covered our awareness to the 'eternal present' of Vaikuntha and Goloka, like a cloud covers the view of the Sun"

Srila Prabhupada - "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered.Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

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Gradually I am beginning to understand

Shakti-Fan · January 27, 2008

Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja:

Aug 4, 2001

It is told like this in the scriptures, but actually there is no birth of the jivas. They are all eternal, like Baladeva Prabhu Himself. This is only said to convince ordinary jivas, conditioned souls. There are so many things that sastra has told us, whereas in reality, in Goloka Vrndavana dhama, these things will be seen in another way.

Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja:

May 8, 2004

In the morning class I told you that all jivas have come out from the glance of Karanadaksayi Visnu. The jivas cannot be created, they are eternal, but they are coming from the light, the sight of Karanadaksayi Vishnu. You should know what is that light. The dim reflection of that light is a combination of the abhasa or semblance of cit-sakti. The abhasa of the tatastha or marginal mood, plus vibhinamsa-tattva, plus maya-shakti. It is a mixture of all these four things, and it is called Sambhu-linga. It is from there that the jivas are coming. Sambhu-linga is a semblance of Sadasiva-tattva. And maya must also be present. If maya is not there, Karanadaksayi Visnu will not be there, and there will be no creation at all.

All this mixing becomes Sambhu-tattva or Sambhu-linga, and by this the creation comes. The creation of what? This gross material body and suksma sarira, subtle material body. The soul is not created, but these two are created. We should know all these truths. That jivas are not created, but rather they are an eternal potency. It is not possible to give more explanation than this. We will have to realize all this by chanting harinama.

Sarva gattah · January 27, 2008

Quote:

Srila Prabhupada - We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973 ...

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Srila Prabhupada - "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered.Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Actually we ALL still in Vaikuntha and have always been there however, a minority of living entities FROM VAIKUNTHA are 'consciously' (as baddha-jiva) caught up within the past, present and future of the material creation (mahat-tattva) that has covered our awareness to the 'eternal present' of Vaikuntha and Goloka, like a cloud covers the view of the Sun"

Our attendance in the material world is very real. And to each of us, IT IS NOT a dream state, we do NOT experience the material world as a dream state while we are here, it is real, as real as being in Vaikuntha, however, we experience everything as temporary.

while in the material world, the 'awareness of our eternal relationship with Krishna is not seen or remember in our present state (nitya-baddha) of conditioned consciousness, (EVEN THOUGH OUR FULL POTENTIAL AS JIVA SOUL AS NITYA-SIDDHA IS PERPETUALLY IN GOLOKA AND IS ALWAYS THERE)

Therefore, it ONLY 'appears' that OUR ETERNAL NITYA SIDDHA BODILY IDENTITY does not exist, just like it 'appears' the sun does not exist, due to the cloud cover, or by the presents of night.

Srila Prabhupada - "Actually we are always in the spiritual world, but you are simply covered".Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973 ...

Sarva gattah · January 29, 2008

Above is where ALL living entities originate from. We are presently only sub-consciously in the mahat-tattva (material creation) while our original 'svarupa' form is perpetually in Vaikuntha

In a Nectar of Devotion lecture given on October 23, 1972, Vrndavana, India, Srila Prabhupada explains WHAT OUR ORIGINAL NATURE IS:

Srila Prabhupada - “We should be always ready to offer respect to all, not only devotees, but everyone. Everyone! Why? Because every living entity is originally a devotee of Krishna. But circumstantially, being covered by the coat of Maya, he’s playing like demon. But his original nature is a devotee of Krishna. Jivera svarupa haya nitya krsnera dasa. Everyone is eternally servant of Krishna. But being influenced by Maya, when he gets this body, given by Maya...Prakrtih kriyamananih gunaih karmani sarvasah, when he conducted by the three gunas of maya, he thinks himself otherwise.”

gHari · January 29, 2008

SB 3.26.26p

One great AcArya, Narottama dAsa ThAkura, has lamented that when one deviates from pure consciousness of VAsudeva, or KRSNa consciousness, he becomes entangled in material activities. The exact words he uses are, sat-saGga chADi' kainu asate vilAsa/ te-kAraNe lAgila ye karma-bandha-phAGsa: "I have given up the pure status of consciousness because I wanted to enjoy in the temporary, material manifestation; therefore I have been entangled in the network of actions and reactions."

krsna · January 30, 2008

SB 3.26.26p

One great Acarya, Narottama dAsa ThAkura, has lamented that when one deviates from pure consciousness of VAsudeva, or KRSNa consciousness, he becomes entangled in material activities. The exact words he uses are, sat-saGga chADi' kainu asate vilAsa/ te-kAraNe lAgila ye karma-bandha-phAGsa:

"I have given up the pure status of consciousness because I wanted to enjoy in the temporary, material manifestation; therefore I have been entangled in the network of actions and reactions.":pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray:

suchandra · February 1, 2008

SB 3.26.26p
One great Acarya, Narottama dAsa ThAkura, has lamented that when one deviates from pure consciousness of VAsudeva, or KRSNa consciousness, he becomes entangled in material activities. The exact words he uses are, sat-saGga chADi' kainu asate vilAsa/ te-kAraNe lAgila ye karma-bandha-phAGsa:

"I have given up the pure status of consciousness because I wanted to enjoy in the temporary, material manifestation; therefore I have been entangled in the network of actions and reactions.":pray: :pray: :pray:

No Evidence Available in the Vedas of Fall from Goloka through Envy

BY: BALAVIDYA DASA

Jan 31, USA (SUN) —

Not a proverbial peep. In our previous posting, "Envy Rules, Kindly Follow", we finished by asking the 'fall-from-Goloka' theorists to provide just one quote from the Vedas and Puranas describing their proposed tale of 'envy in Goloka'. Of the three ultimate authorities-guru, sadhu and sastra-sastra is the highest. The Vedas are the breathing of the Supreme Lord and thus non-different from the Glorious Lord:

"The Personality of Godhead produced the four Vedas by His breathing, and He is seen and realized through the transcendental sound of the Vedas. Similarly, the Bhagavad-gita is the sound representation of the Lord, and there is no difference in identity."

Srila Prabhupada, Purport, Srimad-Bhagavatam. 1.6.25

The sadhus expound and elucidate the Vedas for the benefit of all souls. The sadhus know that contrary ideas outside the realm of the Vedas simply evidence the rebellious ignorance of the fallen soul. Such speculative ideas are produced by the churning mental concoction of the deluded soul. They are ghosts haunting the fallen soul within the darkness of the material energy. These ghosts whisper what the fallen soul egoistically wants to hear: "You are the supreme and most important element in creation. Your ideas are the absolute truth, the foundation of all understanding. Any ideas that conflict with yours must be incorrect even if those ideas are against the siddhanta of the Vedas."

The fallen soul has rebelled against the supremacy of the Supreme Lord, thus he is in the material world. In the material world the supremacy of the Lord is manifest in the Vedas. And the devotional surrender that is the antithesis of the rebellious nature of the fallen soul manifests as surrender to the Vedas. Without acceptance of the import of the Vedas, the path to true surrender remains closed. Acceptance of the Vedas is the essential element for the attainment of the spiritual platform. In Vedic ontology, those that do not accept the Vedas are defined as atheists. However, the fallen soul overly attached to mental speculation and sensual pursuit has no interest in the Vedas. Rather, he feels his material life is threatened by the Vedic gospel.

The Vedic gospel is powerfully presented by the qualified spiritual master, who knows that presenting the Vedas is non-different from presenting the Supreme Lord Himself. By the expert words of the spiritual master, the self-evident authority of the Vedas becomes clearly apparent. Those that are intelligent, non-envious and fortunate surrender to the Vedas, but those whose determination is to continue in chasing the illusory so-called enjoyment of material life maintain their rebellious attitude to the Lord by rebelling against the Vedic import.

This rebellion takes two forms: outright dismissal and self-serving re-interpretation. The errant soul when faced with the demand of surrender to the Supreme Lord that is the ultimate import of the Vedas seeks to escape this demand by these two methods: dismissal and reinterpretation. Thus within the material world, there are many philosophies that seek to dismiss outright the Vedas. "The Vedas are mythology.The Vedas are ancient books that have no relevance to life in the modern world.The Vedas are the poetry of imaginative scribes.Life comes from matter, so the transcendental world presented by the Vedas is just a dream.A basic tenet of Buddhism is to deny the validity of the Vedas." The learned reader will be acquainted with these mistaken propositions that at least have a certain honesty in the way they unabashedly dismiss the authority of the Vedas. The second method of attacking the Vedas is the "snake in the grass" approach. The snake takes shelter in the long grass seeking his chance to inject poison in his victim. Similarly there are many persons and philosophies which apparently take shelter of the Vedas, however their intention is to poison their victims with a vile misinterpretation of the Vedas.

The Mayavadi philosophy is one of these "snake in the grass" philosophies. The Mayavadis from all the Vedas, and in particular the Upanishads, have gleaned four statements that with a twist of meaning can be used to support their re-interpretation of the Vedas. They inventively call these four statements the "four maha-vakyas" of the Vedas. However, this term is a completely self-serving tactic. The whole of the Vedas have validity and in no place are the four statements called "maha-vakyas". However, by inventively creating a special name for these four statements, the Mayavadis hope to draw attention to them and by misinterpreting these statements convince the innocent of their bogus philosophy.

Recently, we see the rtvik-guru deviants employ the same tactic. However, they can stress only one word "henceforward" in all of Srila Prabhupada's vast production. What makes their idea even more farcical is the fact that this one word is in a letter composed by Tamal Krsna Goswami. However, provoked by their underlying, demoniac desire to destroy the age-old parampara system enunciated in the Vedas, this means nothing to them. They simply insist on their misinterpretation. In this way, they march the path from being ignorant fools to being demoniac rascals, who driven by their mental speculation and false ego refuse to listen to all statements of guru, sadhu and sastra that clearly countermands their nonsense ideas. Of course, recently they were asked to come up with just one instance from sadhu and sastra to support their impossible ideas. And the result, absolutely nothing. Yes, absolutely nothing to support their "10,000 year rtvik-diksa-guru philosophy". In their failure they simply resort to repetitive propaganda and disingenuous word-jugglery that simply further exposes the weakness of their arguments and mischievous rascal nature. Thus, ultimately, they only expose their insincerity in following Srila Prabhupada, sadhu and Vedic sastra. Without this surrender, they will remain in the material world.

Now we have the "envy in Goloka" personalities. They also employ the "snake in the grass" tactic. They also presumptuously argue that they are giving the truth of Srila Prabhupada, and yet also cannot offer anything directly from the Vedas to support their claim of "envy in Goloka". It means nothing to them that Srila Prabhupada has conclusively said:

continued

suchandra · February 1, 2008

"The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode."

Purport, Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.16.26

They disingenuously either ignore this "conclusion" or give some fanciful interpretation that suits their purposes. This plain statement is in the midst of a whole section of the Srimad-Bhagavatam with Srila Prabhupada's purports that clearly explain that the only souls descending from the spiritual planets are those souls coming for engagement in the direct lila of the Supreme Lord. This fact is irrefutable. However, instead of intelligently adjusting their ideas, they search the vast body of Srila Prabhupada's teachings and conversations for their own similarly self-serving "envy in Goloka maha-vakyas". They then try to assume the moral high ground by using inventive phrases like "Prabhupada-siddhanta" and seek to support their nonsense by implying that those who do not accept their twisted "Goloka-envy-maha-vakyas" are somehow against Srila Prabhupada. Thus they also employ repetitive propaganda and false posturing of a self-awarded exclusive faithfulness to Srila Prabhupada to support their false claims and clear misinterpretation. This is all they have to offer, certainly nothing from the Vedas.

As we say, in our previous offering "Envy Rules, Kindly Follow" we asked for just one sloka from the Vedas to support their nonsense claims of "envy in Goloka", but what is the result. Absolutely, nothing. Absolutely nothing, but more of the same convoluted, aimlessly meandering, self-serving misinterpretation and unsupportable pompous posturing. Yes, and we have to emphasize, absolutely nothing from the Vedas supporting their impossible claims of "envy in Goloka". Of course, the Vedas have not missed out on the subject of the fall of the jiva:

"In the Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad, 4.3.9, we find:

<center> tasya va etasya purunasya dve eva sthane bhavata
idam ca paraloka-sthanaà ca sandhyam trtiyam
svapna-sthanam tasmin sandhye sthane tisthan ete
ubhe sthane pasyati idam ca paraloka-sthanam ca </center>

"The jiva has access to two places, both of which he may seek, this material world and the spiritual realm.

He is situated in svapna-sthanam, the dream-like third state, on the margin of these two worlds [the Casual Ocean]

. From that middle position he is able to see both the material and the spiritual worlds."

"Further, the following statement from the Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad, 4.3.18, describes the nature of the marginal position of the jiva:
<center> tad yaths mahs matsya ubhe kule'
nusancarati purvam ca param caivam
evsyam purusa etsv ubhav antav
anusancarati svapnantam ca buddhantam ca </center>

"The symptoms of the marginal existence are like those of a huge aquatic who is capable of living on both the eastern and western sides of the river at his own will. Similarly, the jiva soul, situated within the waters of the Causal Ocean, which lies between the material and spiritual worlds, is able to reside in both the dream world of matter and the spiritual world of divine wakefulness."

One might ask how has the jiva has arrived in the Casual Ocean. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur in Jaiva-dharma, Chapter Fifteen, has given a full description:

"In Goloka Vrndavana, Sri Balarama manifests unlimited nitya-parsadas, eternal associates, belonging to the jiva category for the service of Sri Krsna. Similarly, in Vaikuntha, Lord Sankarsana manifests unlimited nitya-parsadas also of the jiva category for the service of Sri Narayana. These nitya-parsadas are eternally engaged in serving their object of worship, the Supreme Godhead, who is absorbed in rasa. They are eternally situated in their svarupa, remain constantly engrossed in satisfying their beloved Lordship, and ever possess enthusiasm and affection for the Lord that never diminishes. They are forever extremely spiritually potent, being imbued with the cit-sakti of the Lord. They have no connection with maya-they are even unmindful of her existence. They are permanent residents of the spiritual world and are very far away from maya. They are fully absorbed in simply relishing the bliss of devotional service to their beloved Lord. Selfish material joys and sorrows are totally alien to these eternally liberated souls. Prema being their life and soul, they do not even know that lamentation, death or fear actually exist.
"Also, countless, infinitesimal jivas emanate from Karanodakasayi Maha Visnu, lying within the Causal Ocean, whose glance impregnates the maya-sakti. As these jivas are the neighbors of maya, they witness her variegatedness. The symptoms of the general mass of jivas as discussed earlier are also present in these jivas. However, because they are minuscule in size and situated at the margin, their constitutional nature is to look at both the material world and the spiritual sky. Their marginal condition makes them vulnerable because-up to this point of time-they have not been reinforced with cit-bala, the strength of spiritual potency, by the mercy of the Supreme Lord, their worshipable object. Those amongst them who desire to enjoy material nature become absorbed in matter and are thus eternally enthralled by her, while those endeavoring to serve the Divine Worshipable Object, upon receiving His mercy, are elevated to the spiritual world. Therefore, my son, we are in a most wretched state. Having forgotten our devotion and service to Sri Krsna, we are held as the captives of maya, and thus, in lieu of our original transcendental status, we are in this miserable situation."

So the above slokas directly from the Vedas and the corresponding detail from the Seventh Goswami, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur definitively clear up the matter. However, this direct description from the highest authority of the Vedas and the words of a supreme Vaisnava such as Bhaktivinoda Thakura mean nothing to the fools and rascals who wish to portray that the Supreme Abode of the Lord, Goloka-Vrndavana is a place where "envy rules". Apparently, according to their impossible philosophy, in his supremely pure state of Krsna-prema, the jiva somehow or other starts to "envy Krsna". As Krsna-prema is the purified state of the jiva and the maya-sakti has no presence on the transcendental platform, this means that the jiva has the constitutional quality of "envying Krsna". The constitution of the jiva is qualitatively equal to that of Krsna. Thus the source of this constitutional envy must be the constitutional quality of Krsna. Thus the Supreme Lord, according to the implications of their argument, is inherently "constitutionally envious". Not only that, but Krsna-prema is defeated by "envy of Krsna". Thus "envy of Krsna" becomes more powerful than "love of Krsna", even in the Supreme Lord's personal abode. What speculative offensive nonsense. Furthermore, as, for our understanding, the material world is described as one fourth of the creation, this means that approximately one fourth of all the residents in spiritual world have awakened their "constitutional envy of Krsna", rejected the ecstasy of bhakti, and preferred the cycle of birth and death in the miserable material world. Furthermore, the Vedas must be wrong, because throughout the Vedas, and at the very end sloka of the Vedanta-sutra, it is clearly stated that no-one who has attained the spiritual planets ever falls from these, the eternal Supreme Abode of the Lord:

Vedanta, 4th Adhaya, Sutra 22:

<center>anavrttih sabdad anavrttih sabdat</center> an-without; avrttih-return; sabdat-because of the scriptures.
"No return, because of the scriptures. No return, because of the scriptures."
Purport by Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusana
A devotee who faithfully worships and serves the Supreme Lord and then goes to the Lord's spiritual world, never returns. How is that known? The sutra explains, "sabdat" (because of the scriptures). In the Chandogya Upanisad (4.15.6) it is said:
<center> etena pratipadyamana imam manavam avartam navartante</center> "They who enter the spiritual world never return to the world of men." In the Chandogya Upanisad (4.15.1) it is said:
<center> sa khalv eva vartayan yavad ayusam brahmalokam abhisampadyate. na ca punar avartate.</center> "Leaving this life, he enters the spiritual world. He never returns."
In the Bhagavad-gita (8.15 and 16) Lord Krsna declares:
<center> mam upetya punar janma
duhkhalayam asasvatam
napnuvanti mahatmanah
samsiddhim paramam gatah </center> "After attaining Me, the great souls, who are yogis in devotion, never return to this temporary world, which is full of miseries, because they have attained the highest perfection."

All these Vedic slokas describe the entry of the jiva to the eternally safe refuge of the spiritual planets in terms of "attainment". Why? Because the fallen souls of this world have never been to the spiritual planets. Thus the Vedas, as above, constantly describe the spiritual planets as places of "attainment" not "return". It is the material world to which the liberated jivas never "return". But in the befuddled intellect of the "envy in Goloka" theorists, the Vedic statements of "no return to the material world" become twisted completely into "return to Goloka". What a display of blind idiocy.

As evidenced by the Upanishad and acaryas above, the jivas of this world have emanated from Maha-Visnu and fallen from the margin between the material and spiritual worlds that is the Casual Ocean. In this position, their devotion to the Supreme Lord was in a nascent state. Perceiving the Supreme Lord's infinite supremacy in this weak position, they exerted their free will to rebel against that infinite supremacy of the Lord and resultantly fancied themselves to become independent enjoyers, as is the Lord. With such a mentality of competition with the Supreme Lord, they cannot enter the spiritual planets where co-operative devotion to the Supreme Lord is not nascent but unbounded and eternally established without "fall", as Srila Prabhupada declares. Thus they "fell" from a position above the material energy but not the spiritual planets. Maya devi has shackled them, and under the direction of the Lord, their desire for independent enjoyment is being fulfilled. The desire of independent enjoyment cannot co-exist with perception the inherent supremacy of the Lord, and so the fallen jivas have been bestowed forgetfulness and non-perception of the Lord. This is the dreamlike delusion to with all the Vaisnava acaryas refer as the condition of the fallen, rebellious jiva. Being spiritual in essence and naturally a devoted servant of the Lord, this perverted consciousness of the fallen jiva is a source of great distress and dissatisfaction to the misfortunate jiva. This distress is heightened by the foreign nature of the material nature, which is also fundamentally discordant with the innate spirituality of the jiva. When the time of this fallen jiva's imprisonment is coming to an end, by the grace of the Lord, the fallen jiva meets the genuine sadhu whose association and instruction dispel the underlying rebellion towards the Lord. By associating with the Merciful Lord through His sound incarnation, the Transcendental Name and Vedic Knowledge, the perverted consciousness of the jiva is gradually rectified under the shelter of the sadhus and guru.

The sadhu's treatment of the jiva's illusion must sometimes involve even severe chastisement to awaken the jiva from mental speculation and sensual pursuit. Thus the guru is "heavy". But this is the greatest mercy of the guru. The guru is greatly pained to see the nonsense of his disciple and out of love does all in his power to cut the misfortunate jiva free from his mental speculation. The sadhus know that if the jivas are to quickly attain liberation and Krsna-prema, then it is essential that they have the right conception of all matters, both spiritual and material. Thus the sadhus are duty-bound to forcefully expose the philosophical and illogical mistakes of the illusioned jiva, and replace such nonsense with the Vedic message. Thus Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Prabhupada was known as the "Lion Guru". And Srila Prabhupada employed the "axe-chopping" technique he had learned from his Glorious Guru. Certainly, the realized, qualified guru is not a "maybe this, maybe that" personality, for he has realized the Absolute Truth, and from this position of realization cannot help but present this Absolute Knowledge forcefully. For the realized soul, the Absolute Truth is not a matter of debate, for he has seen the Truth.

However, the rebellion and concomitant anger of certain jivas is highly developed and thus they may classified as demoniac, determinedly against the sadhus and Vedas. They have unfortunately progressed from being ignorant illusioned fools to envious demoniac rascals. Interestingly, this deep resentment against the Supreme Lord in many cases attracts them to the path of religion. However they do not wish to surrender to this path, but rather wish to ruin this path out of envy. Lost to themselves, they may be largely unaware of their motivations. They may maneuver themselves into high positions within religious organizations, even legislating themselves as exclusive gurus, representing the Supreme Lord. Yet, upon attaining such positions, they exhibit great arrogance, misuse of power, mental speculation, and sensual exploitation. Inevitably, they fall from their contrived positions. Subsequently, they affect humility and repentance as suits their purposes but secretly and smugly feel a demoniac happiness to have misled and confused many neophytes on the spiritual path. Thus, even unknowingly, these rascals are resolute in their activity of attempted destruction of the sadhus and the Vedas. Kamsa is an example of this obsessive mentality of aggression against the Vedas and the sadhus.

Vedic sastric declarations mean nothing to these deviants, and even when given plain Upanishadic references on a topic such as the fall of the jiva, they blithely state that no Vedic reference has been given. In earlier essays, many references have been given to the "fall of the jiva", but the befuddled rascals pretend to themselves and others that a "no-fall" conception is being propounded. What self-serving humbug. Provoked by an underlying demoniac nature, they invent terms such as "Prabhupada-siddhanta", which they try to pass off as a glorification of a great acarya. To imply that Srila Prabhupada deviated from the Vedic siddhanta and previous acaryas is a great offense, but this is then compounded with the thoughtless assertion that Srila Prabhupada's teachings are "contradictory". Put simply, they prefer their misinterpretation of Srila Prabhupada to the role of a surrendered student. Moreover, they posture that those that quote the Vedas, Vedanta-sutra, the Seventh Goswami, Baladeva-vidyabusana are somehow not following Srila Prabhupada. What unmitigated arrogance.

Throughout his teachings, Srila Prabhupada unequivocally directs us to take shelter of guru, sadhu and sastra to resolve points of siddhanta, but the purveyors of "envy in Goloka" and "Prabhupada siddhanta" will not do this, but simultaneously posture that they are teaching what Srila Prabhupada taught. The obvious contradiction in their behavior only further evidences that they are not the representatives of Srila Prabhupada, but rather a group of fools and rascals that willfully distort the "conclusion" of Srila Prabhupada for their purpose of presenting the ultimate Supreme Abode of the Lord and the Supreme Lord as reservoirs of "envy" not eternal transcendental love.

This evidences that they are demonically intent on casting doubt in the minds of the practicing devotees who are ascending to a location and state of eternal Krsna-consciousness. For this insistent propagation of nonsense as the "conclusion" of Srila Prabhupada, their devotional life and progressive realization of siddhanta is not only halted but rather covered. They unknowingly find themselves cast in to the shadows of doubt and further mental speculation for this offence, and from these shadows they have only one tactic: further regurgitation of their unsupportable misinterpretation of Vedic siddhanta and the teachings of Srila Prabhupada. They may be beyond redemption in this life for their offence, however they must be exposed lest the path of devotion be put in doubt in the minds of unrealized neophytes, who are the only persons who will be befuddled by their unmitigated nonsense and mental speculation which they try to pass off as "Prabhupada siddhanta" by simply employing the tactic of posture and disingenuous argumentation.

If they find that they still cannot change their misinformation and posturing, we simply repeat our challenge: No more misinterpretation of Srila Prabhupada, kindly provide just one sloka, one section, one word even, directly from the Vedas that describes an ecstatic beloved servant of the Lord immersed in Krsna-prema in the Supreme Abode of the Lord becoming "envious of Krsna". Just one. Just one. Just one.

But of course, just as we have recently seen this clear demand for Vedic direct evidence will be ignored, because there is no such description, since such a event has never happened, has never happened, has never happened. And will never happen, and will never happen, and will never happen. Why? Because Srila Prabhupada, sadhu and sastra say so. They say so. They say so:

"The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode."
Srila Prabhupada, purport, Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.16.26.

However, we have fallen from the margin that is the Casual Ocean after emanation from Maha-Visnu. Why? Because, the Supreme Lord, in His form as the Vedas, has said so. He has said so. He has said so. And once we attain the Supreme Abode of the Lord, we will never return to this material world. Why? Because the Lord in the Bhagavad Gita has said so. He has said so. He has said so:

<center> yad gatva na nivartante tad dhama paramam mama

Bhagavad-gita 15.6</center>

<center>Aum Tat Sat</center> We hope this is found helpful,

Your servant, Balavidya dasa

Sarva gattah · February 1, 2008

Srila Prabhupada - The conclusion IS that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode." Purport, Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.16.26

It appears Balavidya dasa (ACBSP) does not fully comprehend what this actually means. Here is the correct understanding -

Great Acaryas never stray from the conclusions of guru, sadhu and sastra

Bhaktivinoda Thakura says that the jivas come under the influence of Maya “only when they forget their natural function as Krsna’s servitors.” Srila Prabhupada says we have forgotten our relationship as Krsna’s eternal servants, Srimad-Bhagavatam says it, and now we find Bhaktivinoda Thakura saying the same thing. So guru, sastra, and sadhu are in agreement on this fundamental point.

Just as God has His Svarupa Vigraha, so Jiva has eternal chit Vigraha. That chit body is manifested in Vaikuntha IN A PERPETUAL MANNER, meaning it is always there in the pastimes of Krsna.

Being in material world, it is hidden under two coverings . . . . The conceit [the dictionary meaning of conceit is “thought”] of chit body of Jiva that was existent prior to its contact with matter is just and natural. But after the contact with matter, the conceit of self has become foreign and unjust. [shri Chaitanya Shikshamritam, pp. 156-157]

Srila Prabhupada - We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973 ...

Srila Prabhupada - "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Actually we ALL still in Vaikuntha and have always been there however, a minority of living entities FROM VAIKUNTHA are 'consciously' (as baddha-jiva) caught up within the past, present and future of the material creation (mahat-tattva) that has covered our awareness to the 'eternal present' of Vaikuntha and Goloka, like a cloud covers the view of the Sun"

Our attendance in the material world is very real. And to each of us, IT IS NOT a dream state, we do NOT experience the material world as a dream state while we are here, it is real, as real as being in Vaikuntha, however, we experience everything as temporary.

While in the material world, the 'awareness of our eternal relationship with Krishna is not seen or remember in our present state (nitya-baddha) of conditioned consciousness, (even though our full potential as jiva soul as nitya-siddha is perpetually in Goloka and is always there)

Therefore, it ONLY 'appears' that OUR ETERNAL NITYA SIDDHA BODILY IDENTITY does not exist, just like it 'appears' the sun does not exist, due to the cloud cover, or by the presents of night.

Srila Prabhupada - "Actually we are always in the spiritual world, but you are simply covered”. Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973...

We are therefore presently only sub-consciously in the mahat-tattva (material creation) as baddha-jiva while our original 'svarupa' nitya-siddha bodily form is perpetually in Vaikuntha

In a Nectar of Devotion lecture given on October 23, 1972, Vrndavana, India, Srila Prabhupada explains WHAT OUR ORIGINAL NATURE IS in the following quotes:

Srila Prabhupada - “We should be always ready to offer respect to all, not only devotees, but everyone. Everyone! Why? Because every living entity is originally a devotee of Krishna.

Srila Prabhupada - "But circumstantially, being covered by the coat of Maya, he’s playing like demon. But his original nature is a devotee of Krishna. Jivera svarupa haya nitya krsnera dasa".

Srila Prabhupada - "Everyone is eternally servant of Krishna. But being influenced by Maya, when he gets this body, given by Maya...Prakrtih kriyamananih gunaih karmani sarvasah, when he conducted by the three gunas of maya, he thinks himself otherwise.”

In this way it is Srila Prabhupada explaining to us in very simple English that we all originate from Goloka.

Srila Prabhupada - "Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti 'sadhya' kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya. Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, ". Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

Srila Prabhupada -"The living entity should become purified and regain his svarupa, his original identity" Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48

Srila Prabhupada - "Kāla is exhibited in three features: past, present, and future. That is in the material existence. And if one becomes above the three kālas, in the eternal time… Time is eternal, but in the material existence there is past, present, and future. Bombay, December 25, 1974

Srila Prabhupada - "In the spiritual existence there is no past, no future, only present. Only present. Everything is fresh, present, nitya-navayamāna, only feelings, new, new. That is spiritual existence, ānandāmbudhi-vardhanam, only present—no future, no past. That we cannot realize now, but we can get the knowledge from Vedic literature". Bombay, December 25, 1974

Srila Prabhupada - "The time factor… In the material world there is past, present, and future. Otherwise, time factor is eternal". Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 3.26.16 by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Bombay, December 25, 1974

Srila Prabhupada - "As soon we come to the spiritual plane, "only present", but: "That we cannot realize now." Bombay, December 25, 1974

Actually there is no birth of the jivas. They are all eternal, like Lord Balarama Himself. Many things in the shastra is said to convince the jivas conditioned in the material world, that their real home is Goloka. There are so many things that sastra has told us, whereas in reality, in Goloka Vrndavana dhama, due to the 'eternal presents', these things will be seen in another way.

bhaktajan · February 1, 2008

. . . this is not some burlesque show!

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Time has it's specifications: starts-lasts-ends.

MahaVishna's has his specifications: Breathes-in, holds-breathe, Breathes-out.

Brahma's specifications: Wakes/Creates, Acts as Maha-pita-maha, Sleeps.

The Jiva has it's specifications: sat-citta-ananda.

..................................................................................................

Brahma sleeps thus all is annihilated.

Mahavishnu breathes-in thus all is annihilated.

The jivas enter the material world as a 'Brahma' with his own 'Brahma-anda'.

The jivas stay in the material world and are re-born repeatedly ---from a female or from Brahma's rewakening, or Mahavishnu's rewakening or even upon the current Manu's Appearence.

-- Fin --

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That's all folks.

Thanks for coming! You've been great!

Let's get together to live out our dotage in the not too distant future!

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And, now a word from our sponsors . . .

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No Contradiction in Teachings of Srila Prabhupada on the Fall of the Jiva

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