No Contradiction in Teachings of Srila Prabhupada on the Fall of the Jiva

[Beggar]

 

The Jiva has it's specifications: sat-citta-ananda.

 

During the early '70s some of Prabhupada's godbrothers criticized him for preaching that the jiva is sat-cid-ananda like Krsna, in other words qualitatively one but quantitatively different. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur wrote somewhere that the jiva is both qualitatively and quantitatively different from Krsna. Srila Sridhar Maharaj showed from sastra the principle that everything is known by it's potential. Therefore the jivas can become sat-cid-ananda when they are inbued through the mercy of Sri Guru with cit-sakti or suddha sattva. The godbrothers were satisfied with Srila Sridhar Maharaj's explanation and withdrew their complaint.

[Sarva gattah]

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by bhaktajan

The Jiva has it's specifications: sat-citta-ananda.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

The Jiva has it's specifications: sat-citta-ananda-vigraha.

 

Srila Prabhupada - "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

[Beggar]

 

Therefore the jivas can become sat-cid-ananda when they are inbued through the mercy of Sri Guru with cit-sakti or suddha sattva.

 

Whether we are already liberated or can become liberated are two ways of explaning the same thing. Both angles of vision are spoken and written by Srila Prabhupada and the previous acaryas. We have been told that when we are realized we will really understand these things.

[suchandra]

 

Whether we are already liberated or can become liberated are two ways of explaning the same thing. Both angles of vision are spoken and written by Srila Prabhupada and the previous acaryas. We have been told that when we are realized we will really understand these things.

 

Sometimes conversion below is used to prove that we don't come from Vaikuntha, however, this is not really being said.

 

Devotee: When the souls that were never conditioned at all..., do they also have the independence?

Prabhupada: Yes, but they have not misused. They know that "I am meant for Krsna's service," and they are happy in Krsna's service.

Devotee: Could they ever misuse it?

Prabhupada: Yes, they can misuse it also. That power is there. Yes?

Devotee: Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krsnaloka, there's no possibility of falling back.

Prabhupada: No! There is possibility, but he does not come. Just like after putting your hand in the fire, you never put it again if you are really intelligent. So those who are going back to Godhead, they become intelligent.

[Beggar]

 

 

Speculation Queen Sinking Straight to the Bottom of the Ocean of Nonsense

BY: BALAVIDYA DASA

 

Feb 1, USA (SUN) —

In the previous postings, "

No Contradiction in the Teaching of Srila Prabhupada on the Fall of the Jiva

", "

Envy Rules, Kindly Follow

", and "

No Evidence Available in the Vedas of Fall from Goloka through Envy

", it has been pointed out that the proposition that 'the jiva initially falls from Krsna-prema in Goloka' to the material world relies on disingenuous argumentation and misinterpretation of Srila Prabhupada's statements. These tactics are inherently weak, fallacious, and to fire a sastric torpedo through the floundering bow of such a ship is an easy endeavor, therefore, we see, the 'Goloka-envy-fall-vadis' in panic are trying to re-float their sinking ship by presumptuously posturing that they alone are giving the "Prabhupada siddhanta". However, as they proudly jut their chins out and stare masterfully into the sky awaiting the applause of fools, it would be better that they look down around their feet and notice that their Speculation Queen is headed straight to the bottom of the Ocean of Nonsense. If they don't want to plummet to the murky ocean bottom and join the already sunken Rtvik Queen, then they had better quickly head for the lifeboats named Guru, Sadhu, and Sastra.

 

For the learned readers of the Sampradaya Sun, we would like to illustrate how the tactics mentioned above have been used by the 'fall through Goloka envy' proponents. In fact, the following quote is drawn from one of their postings and is actually a wonderful cast-iron declaration by Srila Prabhupada that the jiva never falls from Goloka. However, in the distorted minds of the 'Goloka-envy-fall-vadis', this same quotation is used in the completely opposite direction. Amazingly, in effect, they argue that a sinking ship riddled with sastric torpedoes is floating nicely. Has white become black in their minds?

 

The quoted conversation from a lecture, Caitanya-caritamrta Adi 7.108, 2.18.1967:

 

• Bhaktijana:
  When the souls that were never conditioned at all..., do they also have the independence?
  
  
  Prabhupada:
  Yes, but they have not misused. They know that "I am meant for Krsna's service," and they are happy in Krsna's service.
  
  
  Bhaktijana:
  Could they ever misuse it?
  
  
  Prabhupada:
  Yes, they can misuse it also. That power is there. Yes?
  
  
  Devotee:
  Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krsnaloka, there's no possibility of falling back.
  
  
  Prabhupada:
  No! There is possibility, but he does not come. Just like after putting your hand in the fire, you never put it again if you are really intelligent. So those who are going back to Godhead, they become intelligent.

 

In this short section of conversation, Srila Prabhupada clearly explains that because of "independence" that is never lost even in the Supreme Abode there is a "possibility" of the jiva falling to the material world, however immediately after "possibility" Srila Prabhupada states "but he does not come". So the conclusion is that this "possibility" is only theoretical, because "he (the jiva) does not come". This is obvious, especially as just a few lines earlier Srila Prabhupada has explained that the jivas in the Supreme Abode "Know that 'I am meant for Krsna's service' and they are happy in Krsna's service." This is the all-encompassing perfection of the Supreme Abode: the jivas still retain their constitutional independence, however this independence is never misused since they "know" (immersed in cit-skati) and are "happy" (immersed in hladini-shakti). Thus their unbounded devotion in the Supreme Abode to their beloved Krsna eternally conquers misuse of their constitutional independence, which is now employed in creatively planning the pleasure of Their Beloved Krsna eternally in the Supreme Abode wherefrom there is no fall.

 

For the realized Vaisnava, knowledgeable in the sastra, how could it be any other way? Rebellious envy in the presence of the unlimitedly attractive, unlimitedly affectionate, entrancing beautiful radiant reservoir of all pleasure, Oh Supreme Lord what an affront this assertion is to You, Your Beloved Devotees, and Your Inconceivably Wonderful Supreme Abode and Eternal Pastimes.!!! What fool will propose such pure nonsense?

 

However, there is one. And he uses the above conversation to assert this foolishness. How is this possible? By word jugglery and mental speculation. One person, who shall remain unnamed, presents the above short conversation with selected words, underlined and emboldened:

 

<center>

No! There is possibility.

</center>

After this mistaken emphasis on "possibility", he completely ignores the conditioning addendum "But he does not come." His postured interpretation of "possibility", thus completely runs in the opposite direction to "He does not come." In his world, "possibility" means "He certainly does come." The exact opposite of what Srila Prabhupada states!

 

Srila Prabhupada clearly states "He [the jiva] does not come [to the material world]". But this essayist presents this conversation as a proof of his assertion that the jiva comes to the material world from the Supreme Abode. One wonders how anybody could get the obvious meaning so wrong…

 

Actually, this short conversation is cast-iron proof that the jiva never falls from the Supreme Abode. Particularly, because, in the context of this conversation, the only reason why the jiva would come to the material world is also discussed. The only reason the jiva would come to the material world is by misusing his independence, however right at the beginning of the dialogue Srila Prabhupada elucidates that the liberated jiva does not misuses his independence through "knowledge" and "happiness".

 

So we must thank this personality for not only disproving what he is trying to prove, but also displaying for the readers of the Sampradaya Sun that his argumentation is clearly based on sloppy word jugglery.

 

Now the posturing of faithfulness to Srila Prabhupada: This essayist declares in the title of his piece that he only "needs one moon". The implication is that only Srila Prabhupada's words should be used to discuss this matter and that anyone who doesn't restrict his quotations in this way is somehow being unfaithful to Srila Prabhupada. Well, I agree that Srila Prabhupada's conversations are sufficient to resolve this matter, however as this essayist constantly (and farcically) misinterprets Srila Prabhupada statements, then we are quoting from sadhu and sastra to expose this misinterpretation. This is the ontology of siddhanta taught by Srila Prabhupada: guru, sadhu, and sastra. So it is either ignorant or disingenuous to postulate that when this age-old system is used it is equivalent to being unfaithful to Srila Prabhupada. Thus, again, we see that what this essayist asserts is the exact opposite of what Srila Prabhupada teaches…

 

Furthermore, as this essayist asserts that Srila Prabhupada teaches that the jivas fall from the Supreme Abode how does he explain:

 

• "The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode." Srila Prabhupada, purport, Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.16.26.
  
  

 

Again his basic idea is in complete opposition to what Srila Prabhupada says, and yet he postures that he is the one being faithful to Srila Prabhupada?

 

We repeat again, as he kindly terms "Show the Sastra" to support the odd proposition that the jivas fall from the Supreme Abode through envy. But amazingly, in his essay he dismisses the call for this ultimately decisive direct proof from the Vedas. Srila Prabhupada thousands of times teaches that the Vedas are the ultimate authority non-different from the Supreme Lord under which all gurus and sadhus are subordinate. And yet the essayist dismisses the call for proof directly from the Vedas. So again he is in exact opposition to the teachings of Srila Prabhupada, which he postures to be faithful to. What humbug.

 

Here again is the Vedas describing the fall of the jiva from his devotionally nascent position within the margin between the material and spiritual worlds that is the Casual Ocean after emanation from Maha-Visnu. In the Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad, 4.3.9, we find:

 

<center>

tasya va etasya purunasya dve eva sthane bhavata

idam ca paraloka-sthanam ca sandhyam trtiyam

svapna-sthanam tasmin sandhye sthane tisthan ete

ubhe sthane pasyati idam ca paraloka-sthanam ca

</center>

"The jiva has access to two places, both of which he may seek, this material world and the spiritual realm.

He is situated in svapna-sthanam, the dream-like third state, on the margin of these two worlds [the Casual Ocean]

. From that middle position he is able to see both the material and the spiritual worlds."

 

"Further, the following statement from the Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad, 4.3.18, describes the nature of the marginal position of the jiva:

<center> tad yaths mahs matsya ubhe kule'

nusancarati purvam ca param caivam

evsyam purusa etsv ubhav antav

anusancarati svapnantam ca buddhantam ca </center>

"The symptoms of the marginal existence are like those of a huge aquatic who is capable of living on both the eastern and western sides of the river at his own will. Similarly,

the jiva soul, situated within the waters of the Causal Ocean

, which lies between the material and spiritual worlds, is able to reside in both the dream world of matter and the spiritual world of divine wakefulness."

 

As we see above, the Upanishad explains that the jiva chooses either the material or spiritual world "at his own will". Thus he misuses his independence in the Casual Ocean, not, as Srila Prabhupada explains, from within the Supreme Abode of the Lord.

Now "Show the Sastra" to substantiate the "fall-from-Goloka-envy" theory. Of course there are no Vedas to substantiate such apasiddhanta, and therefore the befuddled proponents will continue with their beloved mental speculation and false posturing of faithfulness, when in fact the opposite is true.

We hope this is found helpful,

Your servant, Balavidya dasa

 

[Sarva gattah]

It is again very clear that Balavidya dasa (ACBSP) does not fully grasp what the below statements mean.

Srila Prabhupada - "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand". In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Actually we ALL in Vaikuntha RIGHT NOW and have been there however, a minority of living entities FROM VAIKUNTHA are 'consciously' (as baddha-jiva) caught up within the past, present and future of the material creation (mahat-tattva) that has covered our awareness to the 'eternal present' of Vaikuntha and Goloka, like a cloud covers the view of the Sun"

Our attendance in the material world is very real. And to each of us, IT IS NOT a dream state, we do NOT experience the material world as a dream state while we are here, it is real, as real as being in Vaikuntha, however, we experience everything as temporary. While in the material world, the 'awareness of our eternal relationship with Krishna is not seen or remember in our present state (nitya-baddha) of conditioned consciousness, (even though our full potential as jiva soul as nitya-siddha is perpetually in Goloka and is always there) Therefore, it ONLY 'appears' that our eternal nitya siddha bodily identity does not exist, just like it 'appears' the sun does not exist, due to the cloud cover, or by the presents of night.

Srila Prabhupada - We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973...

Srila Prabhupada - The conclusion IS that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode." Purport, Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.16.26

[suchandra]

Of course the new problem we have with this same group of creative thinkers that they never explicate: how are the fallen souls "fallen" in the first time , if they did not fall from somewhere? Where did they fall from? What caused the fall? If they did not fall, but merely came along here in the material world, then that is more or less the Christian approximation. We just appear here, no reason is given.

 

Balavidya das, Feb 3 2008: So now we can understand why this "Goloka-envy-fall-theory" is completely demoniac: It deliberately, paints a picture of "Not-Perfection" for the jiva in Goloka. It paints Goloka as a place of envy and discord. It refutes all Vedas. It suggests that the relationship between the Lord and His devotees is subject to tribulation and subject to sharp, disastrous change.

full article

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/01-08/editorials2377.htm

 

 

 

[Shakti-Fan]

 

The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode." Purport, Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.16.26

It appears Balavidya dasa does not fully comprehend what this actually means

 

The above quote from Srila Prabhupada (from the Purport, Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.16.26) does not refer to the living entities dreaming from the position of Goloka. It is where Srila Prabhupada is alluding to the sastra or scriptures where they speak of what appears to be the tatastha origin of the soul.

 

Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja:

 

It is told like this in the scriptures, but actually there is no birth of the jivas. They are all eternal, like Baladeva Prabhu Himself. This is only said to convince ordinary jivas, conditioned souls. There are so many things that sastra has told us, whereas in reality, in Goloka Vrndavana dhama, these things will be seen in another way.

 

Srila Prabhupada was seeing things from the viewpoint of Goloka where his consciousness was fully established. To only repeat his statements made when he was expressing that mood and ignore his other statements where he is giving the sastric version is a form of imitation.

 

Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja:

 

This gross material body and suksma sarira, subtle material body. The soul is not created, but these two are created. We should know all these truths. That jivas are not created, but rather they are an eternal potency. It is not possible to give more explanation than this. We will have to realize all this by chanting harinama.

 

Guruvani and Beggar were calling your theory "Sleeper-vada" a few months ago. Maybe we could call it the "Dreaming from Goloka Theory". The main problem with your "Dreaming from Goloka Theory" is that you are trying to "give more explanation." Be patient and trust that one day you, me and all of those who have received hari nama through a bona fide spiritual master and chant it regularly and incessently while trying to give up the ten offense will have the real vision of the transcendental world (divya drsti) bestowed upon them.

[Beggar]

Fall, No-Fall

BY: BALAVIDYA DASA

Feb 3, USA (SUN) — In our previous posting, we have shown how a quotation from a lecture by Srila Prabhupada has been misinterpreted by the "fall-from-Goloka-thru-envy-vadis" to support their odd misconception. In this short posting, we would like to re-present the same ever-fresh conversation to illustrate the intellectual bankruptcy of the "envy-goloka-fall-vadis".

However, first, we look to point out another misrepresentation by the "envy-vadis": We have posting explanations of the "fall" of the jiva, with all reference to guru, sadhu, sastra; however, the "fall-vadis" have often labeled the explanation as a "no-fall" theory. This is certainly a disingenuous tactic. Right from our first posting, we have given Vedas to explain that the jiva "falls" from devotionally nascent consciousness while within the border between the spiritual and material worlds that is the Casual Ocean after emanation from Maha-Visnu. So why have the "envy-vadis" presented our "fall" explanation as "no-fall"?

Well, we all certainly know that all the acaryas and the Vedas explain the entry of the jiva into the material world as a "fall". Certainly, Srila Prabhupada uses this term. Therefore, we must consider that the reason the "envy-vadis" prefer to stick on this false label is because by applying this term to the ontology we have presented, then this makes it appear that our ontology is different from Srila Prabhupada. Or to put it another way, by saying our version is "no-fall", we are made to appear in opposition to Srila Prabhupada's "fall-theory". Nothing could be further from the Truth.

So at this point, we must point out that our description is certainly a "fall-theory". We might call it "Fall, No Fall". The tatastha-jiva 'falls' from the Casual Ocean but there is 'no-fall' from the Supreme Abode of the Lord. Kindly, note that Krsna describes His Supreme Abode as the "param-dham" in the Gita. Certainly, the Casual Ocean is the abode of the Lord, but the Casual Ocean is not the 'Supreme Abode'. The transcendental planets are the Supreme Abode. We have no doubt that "Fall, no-Fall" is also Srila Prabhupada's theory, and in the previous posting have given all guru, sadhu, and sastra evidence accordingly. However it must be pointed out that we are still waiting on the sastra to support "fall from Goloka" from the "envy-vadis". Yet, there is not one sastric word coming forth on this topic from the "Goloka-envy-vadis".

No sastra will come, as it is certainly not Srila Prabhupada's philosophy:

Conversation from a lecture, Caitanya-caritamrta Adi 7.108, 2.18.1967:

 

• Bhaktijana: When the souls that were never conditioned at all..., do they also have the independence?
  Prabhupada: Yes, but they have not misused. They know that "I am meant for Krsna's service," and they are happy in Krsna's service."

Above, Srila Prabhupada explains that no jiva falls from the Supreme Abode, because they are situated "in knowledge" and "happiness".

 

• Bhaktijana: Could they ever misuse it?
  Prabhupada: Yes, they can misuse it also. That power is there. Yes?
  

Above, Srila Prabhupada explains that the jiva retains his independence in the Supreme Abode. Note, that Srila Prabhupada does not say that they 'do' misuse their independence, rather "that power is there". It is a possibility.

 

• Devotee: Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krsnaloka, there's no possibility of falling back.
  Prabhupada: No! There is possibility, but he does not come. Just like after putting your hand in the fire, you never put it again if you are really intelligent. So those who are going back to Godhead, they become intelligent.
  

Above, Srila Prabhupada brilliantly explains that the jiva has the "possibility" of misusing "that power". However, "but, he does not come". He does not fall to the material world again. The jiva does not "misuse that power". Srila Prabhupada explains this in terms of the jiva attaining the spiritual world at this point, relevant to the particular question.

So, therefore, in the first interchange, Srila Prabhupada explains that the jivas of the spiritual world do not fall, and in the third interchange, the jivas after attaining the Supreme Abode do not fall. Why? Because, they do not "misuse" their "independence" whilst in these positions because they have "knowledge" and are "happy". Thus in a few lines Srila Prabhupada has wonderfully explained so many deep aspects of our philosophy. One of which is undoubtedly that there is "no-fall" from Goloka, even though jiva theoretically retains the power to misuse his independence. Thus, through Krsna-prema one reaches eternal perfection.

As Srila Prabhupada declared:

 

• "The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode." Srila Prabhupada, purport, Srimad-Bhagavatam. 3.16.26.
  

So, dear readers, don't be in doubt that you will "fall from the Supreme Abode" once you have "attained" that wondrous place of transcendental perfection, where "every step is a dance, every word is a song". You will not fall. No one falls from "Perfection". If they do fall from "Perfection", then what kind of "Perfection" is that? In fact, to "fall" from that state into abject misery in the material world could only mean that it is "Not-Perfection". So that means there is "Not-Perfection" for the jiva, even in the Supreme Abode. Therefore, the Supreme Abode is not a place of the "Highest Perfection" as the Gita declares along with all Vedas. At least from the point of view of the jivas, Goloka is a place of "Not-Perfection". This badly mistaken philosophy.

So now we can understand why this "Goloka-envy-fall-theory" is completely demoniac: It deliberately, paints a picture of "Not-Perfection" for the jiva in Goloka. It paints Goloka as a place of envy and discord. It refutes all Vedas. It suggests that the relationship between the Lord and His devotees is subject to tribulation and subject to sharp, disastrous change. This philosophy, without support from the Vedas, sadhus, and Srila Prabhupada, can only appeal to the ignorant, the spiritually untutored, the unintelligent, and the demoniac. Certainly, even though unlimited zillions and zillions of jivas are in the unlimited universes, there is not one description in the Vedas of one jiva "envy-falling-from-the-Supreme Abode".

However, the Vedas expound in the Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad, 4.3.9:

<center> tasya va etasya purunasya dve eva sthane bhavata

idam ca paraloka-sthanam ca sandhyam trtiyam

svapna-sthanam tasmin sandhye sthane tisthan ete

ubhe sthane pasyati idam ca paraloka-sthanam ca

</center>

"The jiva has access to two places, both of which he may seek, this material world and the spiritual realm.

He is situated in svapna-sthanam, the dream-like third state, on the margin of these two worlds [the Casual Ocean]

. From that middle position he is able to see both the material and the spiritual worlds."

 

"Further, the following statement from the Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad, 4.3.18, describes the nature of the marginal position of the jiva:

<center> tad yaths mahs matsya ubhe kule' nusancarati purvam ca param caivam evsyam purusa etsv ubhav antav anusancarati svapnantam ca buddhantam ca </center>

"The symptoms of the marginal existence are like those of a huge aquatic who is capable of living on both the eastern and western sides of the river at his own will. Similarly, the jiva soul, situated within the waters of the Causal Ocean, which lies between the material and spiritual worlds, is able to reside in both the dream world of matter and the spiritual world of divine wakefulness."

 

To consider that the Lord's Supreme Abode is a place of "Not-Perfection" is a serious ontological mistake, and can only lead to illogical results under argumentation. It is rather like calculating 2+2=3 at the beginning of a long involved calculation. All along the line, everything will be a mistake. If we consider in our Krsna-consciousness contemplations that the Supreme Abode is a place of "envy" and "falling", then we are badly off the mark. We are certainly not contemplating the Lord's Supreme Abode correctly. So the potency of our meditation upon the Absolute Truth will be very much reduced with unfortunate results. Moreover, if we determinedly propagate this mistake amongst the neophyte aspirants, then we will incur great demerit, or perhaps more. Especially, because this mistake is clearly an offence to the Lord, His devotees, the relationship between them, and the Supreme Conscious Abode of the Lord. Therefore, it is demoniac and should be exposed for the welfare of all.

Our philosophy is summarized as inconceivable oneness and difference. It is fitting then, that when one sums up the Vedic conclusion on this particular topic, we have the summary: "Fall, No-Fall". "Fall from the Casual Ocean", yet "No-Fall from the Supreme Abode".

Yes, that's the Absolute Truth: "One and Different" and "Fall, No-Fall".

We hope this is found helpful,

Your servant, Balavidya dasa

 

[suchandra]

 

Fall, No-Fall

BY: BALAVIDYA DASA

Feb 3, USA (SUN) — In our previous posting, we have shown how a quotation from a lecture by Srila Prabhupada has been misinterpreted by the "fall-from-Goloka-thru-envy-vadis" to support their odd misconception. In this short posting, we would like to re-present the same ever-fresh conversation to illustrate the intellectual bankruptcy of the "envy-goloka-fall-vadis".

However, first, we look to point out another misrepresentation by the "envy-vadis": We have posting explanations of the "fall" of the jiva, with all reference to guru, sadhu, sastra; however, the "fall-vadis" have often labeled the explanation as a "no-fall" theory. This is certainly a disingenuous tactic. Right from our first posting, we have given Vedas to explain that the jiva "falls" from devotionally nascent consciousness while within the border between the spiritual and material worlds that is the Casual Ocean after emanation from Maha-Visnu. So why have the "envy-vadis" presented our "fall" explanation as "no-fall"?

Well, we all certainly know that all the acaryas and the Vedas explain the entry of the jiva into the material world as a "fall". Certainly, Srila Prabhupada uses this term. Therefore, we must consider that the reason the "envy-vadis" prefer to stick on this false label is because by applying this term to the ontology we have presented, then this makes it appear that our ontology is different from Srila Prabhupada. Or to put it another way, by saying our version is "no-fall", we are made to appear in opposition to Srila Prabhupada's "fall-theory". Nothing could be further from the Truth.

So at this point, we must point out that our description is certainly a "fall-theory". We might call it "Fall, No Fall". The tatastha-jiva 'falls' from the Casual Ocean but there is 'no-fall' from the Supreme Abode of the Lord. Kindly, note that Krsna describes His Supreme Abode as the "param-dham" in the Gita. Certainly, the Casual Ocean is the abode of the Lord, but the Casual Ocean is not the 'Supreme Abode'. The transcendental planets are the Supreme Abode. We have no doubt that "Fall, no-Fall" is also Srila Prabhupada's theory, and in the previous posting have given all guru, sadhu, and sastra evidence accordingly. However it must be pointed out that we are still waiting on the sastra to support "fall from Goloka" from the "envy-vadis". Yet, there is not one sastric word coming forth on this topic from the "Goloka-envy-vadis".

No sastra will come, as it is certainly not Srila Prabhupada's philosophy:

Conversation from a lecture, Caitanya-caritamrta Adi 7.108, 2.18.1967:

• Bhaktijana: When the souls that were never conditioned at all..., do they also have the independence?
  Prabhupada: Yes, but they have not misused. They know that "I am meant for Krsna's service," and they are happy in Krsna's service."

Above, Srila Prabhupada explains that no jiva falls from the Supreme Abode, because they are situated "in knowledge" and "happiness".

• Bhaktijana: Could they ever misuse it?
  Prabhupada: Yes, they can misuse it also. That power is there. Yes?

Above, Srila Prabhupada explains that the jiva retains his independence in the Supreme Abode. Note, that Srila Prabhupada does not say that they 'do' misuse their independence, rather "that power is there". It is a possibility.

• Devotee: Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krsnaloka, there's no possibility of falling back.
  Prabhupada: No! There is possibility, but he does not come. Just like after putting your hand in the fire, you never put it again if you are really intelligent. So those who are going back to Godhead, they become intelligent.

Above, Srila Prabhupada brilliantly explains that the jiva has the "possibility" of misusing "that power". However, "but, he does not come". He does not fall to the material world again. The jiva does not "misuse that power". Srila Prabhupada explains this in terms of the jiva attaining the spiritual world at this point, relevant to the particular question.

So, therefore, in the first interchange, Srila Prabhupada explains that the jivas of the spiritual world do not fall, and in the third interchange, the jivas after attaining the Supreme Abode do not fall. Why? Because, they do not "misuse" their "independence" whilst in these positions because they have "knowledge" and are "happy". Thus in a few lines Srila Prabhupada has wonderfully explained so many deep aspects of our philosophy. One of which is undoubtedly that there is "no-fall" from Goloka, even though jiva theoretically retains the power to misuse his independence. Thus, through Krsna-prema one reaches eternal perfection.

As Srila Prabhupada declared:

• "The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode." Srila Prabhupada, purport, Srimad-Bhagavatam. 3.16.26.

So, dear readers, don't be in doubt that you will "fall from the Supreme Abode" once you have "attained" that wondrous place of transcendental perfection, where "every step is a dance, every word is a song". You will not fall. No one falls from "Perfection". If they do fall from "Perfection", then what kind of "Perfection" is that? In fact, to "fall" from that state into abject misery in the material world could only mean that it is "Not-Perfection". So that means there is "Not-Perfection" for the jiva, even in the Supreme Abode. Therefore, the Supreme Abode is not a place of the "Highest Perfection" as the Gita declares along with all Vedas. At least from the point of view of the jivas, Goloka is a place of "Not-Perfection". This badly mistaken philosophy.

So now we can understand why this "Goloka-envy-fall-theory" is completely demoniac: It deliberately, paints a picture of "Not-Perfection" for the jiva in Goloka. It paints Goloka as a place of envy and discord. It refutes all Vedas. It suggests that the relationship between the Lord and His devotees is subject to tribulation and subject to sharp, disastrous change. This philosophy, without support from the Vedas, sadhus, and Srila Prabhupada, can only appeal to the ignorant, the spiritually untutored, the unintelligent, and the demoniac. Certainly, even though unlimited zillions and zillions of jivas are in the unlimited universes, there is not one description in the Vedas of one jiva "envy-falling-from-the-Supreme Abode".

However, the Vedas expound in the Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad, 4.3.9:

<center> tasya va etasya purunasya dve eva sthane bhavata

idam ca paraloka-sthanam ca sandhyam trtiyam

svapna-sthanam tasmin sandhye sthane tisthan ete

ubhe sthane pasyati idam ca paraloka-sthanam ca

</center>

"The jiva has access to two places, both of which he may seek, this material world and the spiritual realm.

He is situated in svapna-sthanam, the dream-like third state, on the margin of these two worlds [the Casual Ocean]

. From that middle position he is able to see both the material and the spiritual worlds."

 

"Further, the following statement from the Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad, 4.3.18, describes the nature of the marginal position of the jiva:

<center> tad yaths mahs matsya ubhe kule' nusancarati purvam ca param caivam evsyam purusa etsv ubhav antav anusancarati svapnantam ca buddhantam ca </center>

"The symptoms of the marginal existence are like those of a huge aquatic who is capable of living on both the eastern and western sides of the river at his own will. Similarly, the jiva soul, situated within the waters of the Causal Ocean, which lies between the material and spiritual worlds, is able to reside in both the dream world of matter and the spiritual world of divine wakefulness."

 

To consider that the Lord's Supreme Abode is a place of "Not-Perfection" is a serious ontological mistake, and can only lead to illogical results under argumentation. It is rather like calculating 2+2=3 at the beginning of a long involved calculation. All along the line, everything will be a mistake. If we consider in our Krsna-consciousness contemplations that the Supreme Abode is a place of "envy" and "falling", then we are badly off the mark. We are certainly not contemplating the Lord's Supreme Abode correctly. So the potency of our meditation upon the Absolute Truth will be very much reduced with unfortunate results. Moreover, if we determinedly propagate this mistake amongst the neophyte aspirants, then we will incur great demerit, or perhaps more. Especially, because this mistake is clearly an offence to the Lord, His devotees, the relationship between them, and the Supreme Conscious Abode of the Lord. Therefore, it is demoniac and should be exposed for the welfare of all.

Our philosophy is summarized as inconceivable oneness and difference. It is fitting then, that when one sums up the Vedic conclusion on this particular topic, we have the summary: "Fall, No-Fall". "Fall from the Casual Ocean", yet "No-Fall from the Supreme Abode".

Yes, that's the Absolute Truth: "One and Different" and "Fall, No-Fall".

We hope this is found helpful,

Your servant, Balavidya dasa

 

Of course the same problem we have with this lineage of creative thinkers that they never explicate: how are the fallen souls "fallen" in the first time, if they did not fall from somewhere, please explain, where did they fall from? What caused the fall? If they did not fall, but merely came along here in the material world, then that is more or less the same old Christian approximation. We just appear here, no reason is given. And as Christians add, you cannot ask this question. Who will say, bravos, that's the knowledge we were waiting for?

[realist]

 

Srila Prabhupada - We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973 ...

Srila Prabhupada - "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Actually we ALL still in Vaikuntha and have always been there however, a minority of living entities FROM VAIKUNTHA are 'consciously' (as baddha-jiva) caught up within the past, present and future of the material creation (mahat-tattva) that has covered our awareness to the 'eternal present' of Vaikuntha and Goloka, like a cloud covers the view of the Sun"

Our attendance in the material world is very real. And to each of us, IT IS NOT a dream state, we do NOT experience the material world as a dream state while we are here, it is real, as real as being in Vaikuntha, however, we experience everything as temporary.

While in the material world, the 'awareness of our eternal relationship with Krishna is not seen or remember in our present state (nitya-baddha) of conditioned consciousness, (even though our full potential as jiva soul as nitya-siddha is perpetually in Goloka and is always there)

Therefore, it ONLY 'appears' that our eternal nitya siddha bodily identity does not exist, just like it 'appears' the sun does not exist, due to the cloud cover, or by the presents of night.

Srila Prabhupada - "Actually we are always in the spiritual world, but you are simply covered”. Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973...

We are therefore presently only sub-consciously in the mahat-tattva (material creation) as baddha-jiva while our original 'svarupa' nitya-siddha bodily form is perpetually in Vaikuntha

 

 

The above is 100% correct but it depends on personal realization if the above words are to make sense.

With all due respect to Balavidya dasa (ACBSP) Guruvani, Beggar, Shakti-Fan and possibly even Narayana Maharaja, it appears they cannot understand because they do not have the realization that all living entities who come to the material creation, ALL come down from Vaikuntha or Goloka (from the pastimes of Lord Krishna)

Although Narayana Maharaja once did say that in 'reality', in 'Goloka Vrndavana dhama', these things will be seen in another way".

Balavidya dasa with what I have read of his 'emotionally charged ideas' cannot understand what the 'eternal presents' means. Understanding that is where the secret is found to understand we ARE always with Krishna.

Many devotees understand this fact but do not get involved in this silly debate because they know that only by ones personal realizations and not words, can one truly understand we have all come from the eternal pastimes of Lord Krishna.

Actually we are still there with Krishna, but presently only 'think and imagine' we are not there.

Remember, only by personal realization through the mercy of Srila Prabhupada can this be realized

[Beggar]

 

We just appear here, no reason is given. And as Christians add, you cannot ask this question. Who will say, bravos, that's the knowledge we were waiting for?

 

<center>Origin of the Jiva Soul

 

</center> <center>by Srila Bhakti Raksaka Sridhara Maharaja

 

</center>

Since time immemorial, man has inquired about the origin of the soul. In the thinking of many neophyte devotees the soul falls down from eternal pastimes with Krishna due to mundane envy. In this brief essay, Srila Sridhara Maharaja answers this most vital of all questions: "Who am I? Where have I come from?

 

How does the soul first appear in this world? From what stage of spiritual existence does he fall into the material world?" This is a broad question, which requires some background information. There are two classes of souls, jivas, who come into this world. One class comes from the spiritual Vaikuntha planets by the necessity of nitya-lila, the eternal pastimes of Krsna. Another comes by constitutional necessity.

The brahmajyoti, the nondifferentiated marginal plane, is the source of infinite jiva souls, atomic spiritual particles of nondifferentiated character. The rays of the Lord's transcendental body are known as the brahmajyoti, and a pencil of a ray of the brahmajyoti is the jiva. The jiva soul is an atom in that effulgence, and the brahmajyoti is a product of an infinite number of jiva atoms.

Generally, souls emanate from the brahmajyoti which is living and growing. Within the brahmajyoti, their equilibrium is somehow disturbed and movement begins. From nondifferentiation, differentiation begins. From a plain sheet of uniform consciousness, individual conscious units grow. And because the jiva is conscious it is endowed with free will. So, from the marginal position they choose either the side of exploitation or the side of dedication.

Krsna bhuli sei jiva anadi bahirmukha . Anadi means that which has no beginning. When we enter the land of exploitation, we come within the factor of time, space, and thought. And when we come to exploit, action and reaction begins in the negative land of loan. Although we strive to become masters, really we become losers.

Goloka and Vaikuntha servitors are also seen to be within the jurisdiction of the brahmanda, the material universe, but that is only a play, lila. They come from that higher plane only to take part in the Lord's pastimes and then return. The fallen souls come from the marginal position within the brahmajyoti and not from Vaikuntha.

The first position of a soul in the material world will be like that of Brahma the creator. Then his karma may take him to the body of a beast like a tiger where he is surrounded with a tigerish mentality, or to the body of a tree or creeper, where different impressions may surround him. In this way, one is involved in action and reaction. The case is complex; to analyze the details of the history of a particular atom is unnecessary. We are concerned with the general thing: how the transformation of the material conception springs from pure consciousness.

Matter is not independent of spirit. In the brahmajyoti we are equipoised in the marginal potency as an infinite number of pinpoints of spiritual rays, electrons of consciousness. Consciousness means endowed with free will, for without free will no consciousness can be conceived. An atomic pinpoint of consciousness has very meager free will, and by misuse of their free will some jivas have taken their chance in the material world. They refused to submit to the supreme authority; they wanted to dominate. So, with this germinal idea of domination, the jiva enters into the world of exploitation. In the Bhagavad-gita (7.27) it is stated:

 

iccha-dvesa samutthena

dvandva-mohena bharata

sarva-bhutani sammoham

sarge yanti parantapa

"Two principles in a crude form awaken in the jiva: hatred and desire. Then, gradually the soul comes down to mingle with the mundane world."

 

At first, sympathy and apathy develop in a crude form, just as when a sprout springs up with two leaves. And gradually these two things help us to dive deep into this mundane world. Upon retiring from the world of exploitation, the soul may return to his former position in the brahmajyoti as spirit. But, if the soul has gathered the tendency of dedication through his previous devotional activities, he does not stop there; he pierces through the brahmajyoti and goes towards Vaikuntha. Why has the soul come to the world of "exploitation" and not the world of dedication? That should be attributed to his innate nature, which is endowed with free will. It is a free choice. This is substantiated in the Bhagavad-gita (5. 14):

 

na kartrtvam na karmani

lokasya srjati prabhuh

na karma-phala-samyogam

svabhavas tu pravartate

"The soul is responsible for his entrance into the land of exploitation."

 

The responsibility is with the soul, otherwise, the Lord would be responsible for his distressed condition. But Krsna says that the soul's innate free will is responsible for his entanglement in the material world. The soul is conscious, and consciousness means endowed with freedom. Because the soul is atomic, his free will is imperfect and vulnerable. The result of that free choice is that some are coming into the material world, and some are going to the spiritual world. So, the responsibility is with the individual soul. Once, an Indian political leader, Syamasundara Cakravarti, asked our spiritual master, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura Prabhupada, "Why has the Lord granted such freedom to the jiva ?" Prabhupada told him, ""You are fighting for freedom. Don't you know the value of freedom? Devoid of freedom, the soul is only matter." Freedom offers us the alternative to do right or wrong. Once, Gandhi told the British authorities, ""We want freedom."' They replied, "You are not fit to have self-government. When you are fit, we shall give it to you." But finally, he told them, "We want the freedom to do wrong." So, freedom does not guarantee only acting in the right way; freedom has its value independent of right and wrong.

Free will is only absolute with the Absolute Truth. Because we are finite our free will is infinitesimal. The possibility of committing a mistake is there. Our first choice was to dominate and so, gradually we have entered the world of domination. As a result of this first action, everything else has developed. So, in different ranks the species have been divided from the demigods down to the trees and stones. And watery bodies, gaseous bodies, anything that we find here has evolved in that way. The activating principle in any form of embryological development is the soul, and from the soul, everything has evolved."

 

 

 

 

[realist]

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

Srila Prabhupada - We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973 ...

Srila Prabhupada - "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

 

Srila Prabhupada - "Actually we are always in the spiritual world, but you are simply covered”. Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973...

We are therefore presently only sub-consciously in the mahat-tattva (material creation) as baddha-jiva while our original 'svarupa' nitya-siddha bodily form is perpetually in Vaikuntha

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

The above is pretty simple to read, it makes complete sense however, are you ready to understand these truths revealing our origins?

 

We certainly did not originate from a plain sheet of uniform consciousness where individual souls emanate from the inactive aspect of the Brahmajyoti, which is living and growing? Srila Prabhupada rejected that idea. It is incorrect because all souls are eternal beings without beginning or end

[Shakti-Fan]

 

We certainly did not originate from a plain sheet of uniform consciousness where individual souls emanate from the inactive aspect of the Brahmajyoti, which is living and growing? Srila Prabhupada rejected that idea. It is incorrect because all souls are eternal beings without beginning or end

That Srila Prabhupada rejected this idea is a false proposition as shown below:

 

 

The all-pervading feature of the Lord which exists in all circumstances of waking and sleeping as well as in potential states and from which the jiva-sakti (living force) is generated as both conditioned and liberated souls-is known as Brahman. (Isopanisad, Text 16, purport)

As we have learned from previous mantras, the brahmajyoti emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord is full of spiritual sparks that are individual entities with the full sense of existence. Sometimes these living entities want to enjoy their senses, and therefore they are placed in the material world to become false lords under the dictation of the senses. (Isopanisad, Text 17, purport)

As spiritual sparks of the beams emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord, we are all permanently related with Him and equal to Him in quality. (C.C. Madhya-lila 5.22)

Srila Prabhupada is simply paraphrasing the commentaries of the previous acaryas where they are quoting the scriptures or sastra.

 

 

Srila Narayana Maharaj:

 

It is told like this in the scriptures, but actually there is no birth of the jivas. They are all eternal, like Baladeva Prabhu Himself. This is only said to convince ordinary jivas, conditioned souls. There are so many things that sastra has told us, whereas in reality, in Goloka Vrndavana dhama, these things will be seen in another way.

Are we like Srila Prabhupada, actually SITUATED IN Gololka Vrndavana consciousness? These are two different perspectives given by a pure devotee, different angles of vision. The "Dreaming from Goloka Theory" is a dualistic misconception that attempts to deny an entire and vital aspect of Srila Prabhupada's teachings while attempting to establish the Goloka viewpoint as the only viewpoint in Srila Prabhupada's books. Preaching means to give both and all angles of vision as Srila Prabhupada did. He was never attached to the result although he knew that many of the things he said would be misunderstood by his neophyte followers. He gave his preaching service, his best effort and peacefully knew that the results are up to Krsna. To take the other course is to remain attached and the result is politics, not preaching or Hari katha.

 

 

 

[Sarva gattah]

Ah well, at least we had the Christmas break (truce) now its back to work :deal:

- Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

Srila Prabhupada - "Actually we are always in the spiritual world, but you are simply covered”. Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973..

 

Srila Prabhupada - We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973 ...

Srila Prabhupada - "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

 

We are therefore presently only sub-consciously in the mahat-tattva (material creation) as baddha-jiva while our original 'svarupa' nitya-siddha bodily form is perpetually in Vaikuntha

 

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Bhakta Rod

The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode." Purport, Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.16.26

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by realist

We certainly did not originate from a plain sheet of uniform consciousness where individual souls emanate from the inactive aspect of the Brahmajyoti, which is living and growing? Srila Prabhupada rejected that idea. It is incorrect because all souls are eternal beings without beginning or end

Many devotees understand this fact but do not get involved in this silly debate because they know that only by ones personal realizations and not words, can one truly understand we have all come from the eternal pastimes of Lord Krishna.

Actually we are still there with Krishna, but presently only 'think and imagine' we are not there.

Remember, only by personal realization through the mercy of Srila Prabhupada can this be realized

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

[Shakti-Fan]

 

Ah well, at least we had the Christmas break (truce) now its back to work

 

Please carefully read post my post #165 and respond to my philosophical proposals therein. Just cutting and pasting won't really do. There are really more than two sides on this origin of the soul issue, there are in fact, at least several:

1) Sridhar Maharaja - origin and fall from the Brahmajyoti

2) GBC - OOP Paper - the jivas fell from Vaikuntha

3) Narayana Maharaja - The scriptures tell the Brahmajyoti viewpoint but

it's seen differently from Goloka Vrndavana.

4) The "Dreaming from Goloka Theory" which intrepets the quote "no one

falls from the spiritual world" to mean since the jivas are always there

that there is in fact no fall. Maybe it could be called the "NO Fall

Theory".

You are only responding to the pure fall from the brahmajyoti idea.

[suchandra]

 

Maybe it could be called the "NO Fall

Theory".

You are only responding to the pure fall from the brahmajyoti idea.

At least it should be clear that the time span we are caught up within the material world is for the residents of the transcendental world something like one breath.

Being of one voice about this point would be a first success.

[Sarva gattah]

 

Please carefully read post my post #165 and respond to my philosophical proposals therein. Just cutting and pasting won't really do. There are really more than two sides on this origin of the soul issue, there are in fact, at least several:

1) Sridhar Maharaja - origin and fall from the Brahmajyoti

2) GBC - OOP Paper - the jivas fell from Vaikuntha

3) Narayana Maharaja - The scriptures tell the Brahmajyoti viewpoint but

it's seen differently from Goloka Vrndavana.

4) The "Dreaming from Goloka Theory" which intrepets the quote "no one

falls from the spiritual world" to mean since the jivas are always there

that there is in fact no fall. Maybe it could be called the "NO Fall

Theory".

You are only responding to the pure fall from the brahmajyoti idea.

 

Fair comment, it's Guru puja time down under so I'll get back to this on thread soon. Oh one thing before I sign off -

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

Quote:Srila Narayana Maharaj:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>It is told like this in the scriptures, but actually there is no birth of the jivas. They are all eternal, like Baladeva Prabhu Himself. This is only said to convince ordinary jivas, conditioned souls. There are so many things that sastra has told us, whereas in reality, in Goloka Vrndavana dhama, these things will be seen in another way. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

This is a very profound statement by Srila Narayana Maharaj. Actually all the above are right depending on where we are situated and what consciousness we are in.

 

For example, if one is situated in Goloka in the eternal present serving beautiful Krishna, to them, there is no past or future. As far as they are concerned, they have always been there in Vaikuntha or Goloka.

[Beggar]

 

At least it should be clear that the time span we are caught up within the material world is for the residents of the transcendental world something like one breath.

Being of one voice about this point would be a first success.

 

If you mean the relativity of material time in comparison to spiritual eternity, I am sure that all sides agree and have always agreed on this point.

[BhaktiK]

 

If you mean the relativity of material time in comparison to spiritual eternity, I am sure that all sides agree and have always agreed on this point.

 

The pastimes in Goloka are continuously being repeated, and when the Lord descends on an earth planet those moving pastimes are displayed in earthly Gokul. There is no difference between Gokul and Goloka except that the pastimes in Gokul are visible.

 

Sri Brhad Bhagatamrtam by Srila Sanatan Goswami, Sri Goloka-mahatmya chapter 6

 

 

 

350 If someone sometimes would remember or speak of the Lord's absence from Vraja, the person would think: "I was frightened and lamented greatly because I saw a very bad dream."

351 Their senses attracted and charmed by the sweetness of Gopala's pastimes, after a time the people of Vraja could not remember the Lord leaving them.

352 O friend, after some time, as if he had never come before Akrura came again and took his chariot to Vraja.

353 Again he took away the life of Vraja. The people there attained the same condition as before.

354 Again Krsna went to Mathura city, killed Kamsa, and returned to Vraja as before. In this way He enjoyed pastimes.

355 Again and again He goes to Mathura city and, as before, again and again He returns and enjoys pastimes in Vraja.

356 Again and again He subdues Kaliya. Again and again He lifts Govardhana Hill. Again and again the Lord enjoys many wonderful pastimes that enchant the devotees' hearts.

357 Poisoned by great love for Sri Krsna, the people of Vraja think these events never happened before.

358 Separated from Him, and meeting Him again, their love for Krsna grows very great.

 

Time here on earth is synchronized with time moving forward in Krishna's lila. When Mahaprabhu was living on earth 500 years ago Martin Luther was also living in the same time, but in a differnent place.

[suchandra]

 

When Mahaprabhu was living on earth 500 years ago Martin Luther was also living in the same time, but in a differnent place.

A noteworthy thing is that the early Christians were apparently learning from "The Book Of Enoch." Supposedly Enoch was Noah's grandfather. Enoch laid down that the main source of hassles on earth are referable to "fallen angels," i.e. divine beings who at one time had spiritual bodies, and they became fallen down. This comprises very much Srila Prabhupada's teachings that we were once pure devotee ourselves, and we fell.

 

Indeed this essentially mirrors Srila Prabhupada's teachings that we souls were formerly divine beings with spiritual bodies and "we fell into this material world." In fact Srila Prabhupada brings up "fallen souls" all the time (Search Results: 265 Items about "fallen souls" ). Thus the idea that divine and pure souls can "fall down from a position of spiritual purity" was also once part of the Christian's ideology. And the state of failure according to Enoch was due to neglecting the instructions of God, just as Srila Prabhupada says -- we souls rebelled against God.

 

The book of Enoch was later on expelled from the Christian Bible by the popes of the early Roman council epochs. It is interesting that the Gaudiya Matha followers are now saying "the idea that pure souls can fall -- is demoniac," which demonstrates that they do not recognise what the words "fallen soul" even implies. It is interesting that other successions of religion have had the idea of "falling from sinlessness."

 

 

The Book of Enoch (also known as 1 Enoch) was once cherished by Jews and Christians alike, this book later fell into disfavor with powerful theologians - precisely because of its controversial statements on the nature and deeds of the fallen angels.

Many of the early church fathers also supported the Enochian writings. Justin Martyr ascribed all evil to demons whom he alleged to be the offspring of the angels who fell through lust for women (from the Ibid.)-directly referencing the Enochian writings. Athenagoras, writing in his work called Legatio in about 170 A.D., regards Enoch as a true prophet. He describes the angels which "violated both their own nature and their office." In his writings, he goes into detail about the nature of fallen angels and the cause of their fall, which comes directly from the Enochian writings.

 

Many other church fathers: Tatian (110-172); Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons (115-185); Clement of Alexandria (150-220); Tertullian (160-230); Origen (186-255); Lactantius (260-330); in addition to: Methodius of Philippi, Minucius Felix, Commodianus, and Ambrose of Milanalso-also approved of and supported the Enochian writings.

source

 

 

Revatīnandana: You very clearly explained to me once in a letter that if the spirit soul then goes into the brahmajyoti, he is considered still fallen. Still fallen. Does that means the whole brahmajyoti is composed of fallen souls? You see my question? If I go there, I’m a jīva soul, and I go to the brahmajyoti I’m still fallen.

 

Prabhupāda: Yes.

 

Revatīnandana: That means all jīva souls there are also fallen souls.

 

Prabhupāda: Yes.

 

Revatīnandana: That follows?

 

Prabhupāda: That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Vibhinnāṁśa. Separated parts. Separated parts, vibhinnāṁśa. You can call it fallen.

 

Revatīnandana: But we usually think of fallen as being forgetful.

 

Prabhupāda: Yes. This is also forgetfulness. In the brahmajyoti you are forgetful still. Because you are… That is stated in the śāstra, anādhṛta yuṣmad anghrayaḥ. Anādhṛta. They do not know how to adore the lotus feet of Kṛṣṇa. That is forgetfulness.

 

Śyāmasundara: So they become separated.

 

Prabhupāda: Yes.

 

Room Conversation

with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

August 17, 1971, London

 

 

[Beggar]

 

Indeed this essentially mirrors Srila Prabhupada's teachings... [url="http://reluctant-messenger.com/enoch.htm"]

 

We notice often that Western aspiring Gaudiya Vaisnava's tend to view Srila Prabhupada as a teacher without a clear sampradaya like how Jesus Christ has been presented. Suchandra, you very clearly show that you wish to superimpose your Christianity on Gaudiya Vaisnavism and divorce Srila Prabhupada from the Rupanuga guru varga. Then you quote Srila Prabhupada's conversation with Revatinandana to show that the souls have fallen from Vaikuntha. But this conversation is actually about how impersonalist yogis will not be able to stay in the brahmajyoti. The fact is that no jiva can stay in the bhahmajyoti forever because they will eventually begin to express their natural inclination of personhood - to desire. In the brahmajyoti there is no chance of coming into contact with a sat guru who can give us the process for reviving our dormant consciousness as the eternal servant of Krsna.

[stonehearted]

 

We notice often that Western aspiring Gaudiya Vaisnava's tend to view Srila Prabhupada as a teacher without a clear sampradaya like how Jesus Christ has been presented.

 

This tendency underlies so many of the problems surrounding ISKCON, as well as those that arise between ISKCON and other groups. I had this in mind when I wrote "Considering Srila Prabhupada's Mercy" a few years ago. Srila Prabhupada did not come out of nowhere; he came from a lifetime of immersion in Gaudiya Vaishnava culture and an adult life immersed in the mission of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati, in different forms, and how his vision extended the revolutionary preaching of Sri Cahitanya Mahaprabhu, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, and Srila Sarasvati Thakura.

[suchandra]

 

In the brahmajyoti there is no chance of coming into contact with a sat guru who can give us the process for reviving our dormant consciousness as the eternal servant of Krsna.

 

Great post Beggar, thanks so much, realy clarifying, go on with the good work!