No Contradiction in Teachings of Srila Prabhupada on the Fall of the Jiva

[Sarva gattah]

 

The fact is that no jiva can stay in the bhahmajyoti forever because they will eventually begin to express their natural inclination of personhood - to desire.

 

Thats right, we cannot stay in the 'inactive aspect of the brahmajyoti and therefore we have obviously 'actively' existed before entering the impersonal Brahmajyoti 'conditioned' in the 'material' (mahat-tattva) creation.

 

This means we have come back and forwards for so many times, but long, long, long, long long, long before that, we were with Krishna due to being 'aware' or our eternal relationship with the Lord as our perpetual 'svarupa' body.

 

Srila Prabhupada - "The time factor… In the material world there is past, present, and future. Otherwise, time factor is eternal". Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 3.26.16 by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Bombay, December 25, 1974

Srila Prabhupada - "In the spiritual existence there is no past, no future, only present. Only present. Everything is fresh, present, nitya-navayamāna, only feelings, new, new. That is spiritual existence, ānandāmbudhi-vardhanam, only present—no future, no past. That we cannot realize now, but we can get the knowledge from Vedic literature". Bombay, December 25, 1974

Srila Prabhupada - "As soon we come to the spiritual plane, "only present", but: "That we cannot realize now, but we can get the knowledge from Vedic literature" Bombay, December 25, 1974

 

[bhaktajan]

I searched the folio for, "back home, back to godhead" —below are Srila Prabhupada's statements.

One may argue that A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami did not possess the literary skills, in the English language, to express himself precisely as a guru:

 

…………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

 

"Back to" is the wording that Srila Prabhupada used!!!!

back–adverb

1. at, to, or toward the rear; backward: to step back.

2. in or toward the past: to look back on one's youth; They met in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com<st1:place w:st="on">Chicago</st1:place></st1:City> back in 1976.

3. at or toward the original starting point, place, or condition: to go back to the old neighborhood.

4. in direct payment or return: to pay back a loan; to answer back.

5. in a state of restraint or retention: to hold back the tears; to hold back salary.

6. in a reclining position: to lean back; to lie back.

 

…………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

Below are a few references, for your use.

Bhagavad-gita [Purports by Srila Prabhupada]:

Preface — . . . go back to home, back to Godhead. . . .

3.10 — . . . to come back home—back to Godhead. . . .

3.15 — . . . return home, back to Godhead. . . .

5.24 — . . . back to Godhead, back to home. . . .

9.12 — . . . going back to Godhead

9.26,28 — . . . back home, back to Godhead. . . .

10.4-5 — . . . go back to the spiritual sky, back home, back to Godhead. . . .

10.10 — . . . go back home, back to Godhead, . . .

11.33 — . . . to go back to Godhead, back to home. . . .

13.29 — . . . go back to Godhead, back to home. . . .

15.12 — . . . back to Godhead, back to home. . . .

15.15 — . . . and come back to Godhead, back to home. . . .

16.1-3 — . . . go back home, back to Godhead, . . .

17.25 — . . . back to home, back to Godhead. . . .

18.68 — . . . to go back home, back to Godhead. . . .

Srimad-Bhagavatam [Purports by Srila Prabhupada]:

2.2.27

2.10.4

10.3.37-38

10.6.39-40

8.24.52

Sri Caitanya Caritamrita [Purports by Srila Prabhupada]:

Adi-Lila 9.43

..........................................................................................................................

If one accepts that Srila Prabhupada's English is the king's English —then why all the semantics?

Ys,

Bhaktajan

[Shakti-Fan]

 

The fact is that no jiva can stay in the bhahmajyoti forever because they will eventually begin to express their natural inclination of personhood - to desire.

 

 

Thats right, we cannot stay in the 'inactive aspect of the brahmajyoti and therefore we have obviously 'actively' existed before entering the impersonal Brahmajyoti 'conditioned' in the 'material' (mahat-tattva) creation.

 

 

I don't see the connection from , "we cannot stay in the 'inactive aspect of the brahmajyoti" to "and therefore we have obviously 'actively' existed before entering the impersonal Brahmajyoti...". Therefore it is obvious? Why would that be logically true? "Although I am one, I shall become many." This is the Vedic aphorism (Chandogya Upanisad 6.2.3) One angle of vision is the Lord being one then becoming many. Is this is only told to convince the conditioned souls? But still if he became many or expanded Himself through His multifarious energies then it part of the process would be the jivas coming out like pencil-rays of individual consciousness. From the angle of Goloka-Gokula we are eternal and have always been related to Krsna. Why campaign to deny so many quotes from Srila Prabhupada's books that seem to contradict each other from the external viewpoint?

[Beggar]

 

I searched the folio for, "back home, back to godhead" —below are Srila Prabhupada's statements.

One may argue that A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami did not possess the literary skills, in the English language, to express himself precisely as a guru...

Sridhar Maharaj also used the term, "back to godhead" but he did not literally believe that the condtioned souls were ever actually in the Vaikuntha planets but he asserted that they previously existed within the effulgence of the Lord which is also a part of the godhead.

Also Kundali Prabhu (ACBS) has explained that if the son of a king is born while his mother is exiled in a different country when that son, the rightful heir of the king, the prince, will be going "home" when he returns to his fathers kingdom although he has never actually been there.

__________________

 

In Union-occupied Georgia, a Confederate weeps as spectators watch the historic flags of Georgia and South Carolina regiments leave to cross the St. Marys River into Florida, Feb. 19, 1865, in Folkston GA.

[Sarva gattah]

The contradiction is only with the view WE have

 

Do we understand the 'eternal present' in relation to 'past, present and future' - THIS IS WHERE THE ANSWER IS FOUND

[bhaktajan]

 

Originally Posted by Begger . . . if the son of a king is born while his mother is exiled in a different country when that son, the rightful heir of the king, the prince, will be going "home" when he returns to his fathers kingdom although he has never actually been there.

 

 

The seed giving father has lost his wife? Krsna has given the seed of birth--thus, we are in excile too? If the child is to leave excile and go home he is not returning, as Rama did, or the Pandavas did. The child would be like a second generation immigrant going to the land of his ancestors--not knowing the language nor customs nor relatives etc., thus "not returning" but "relocating".

 

 

 

But the terminology is: "Back home, back to Godhead" as in to return home.

 

You might know what Sridhar Swami meant literally, but We are asserting what Srila Prabhupada instructed.

[Beggar]

 

You might know what Sridhar Swami meant literally, but We are asserting what Srila Prabhupada instructed.

But we are of the opinion that you are misunderstanding the instructions of Srila Prabhupada!!!!

 

________________<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td> </td> <td valign="top" width="115"></td></tr></tbody></table>

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En Géorgie Union-occupée, un confédéré pleure pendant que les spectateurs observent les drapeaux historiques des régiments de la Géorgie et de la Caroline de Sud partir pour traverser le fleuve de rue Marys dans la Floride, fév. 19, 1865, dans Folkston GA

[Sarva gattah]

 

But the terminology is: "Back home, back to Godhead" as in to return home.

 

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Srila Prabhupada - "We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973 ...

We have come down from Goloka and can eventually go BACK home, back to Godhead (Goloka)

 

Srila Prabhupada - "You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…So actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

 

Srila Prabhupada - "Actually we are always in the spiritual world, but you are simply covered”. Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973...

We are therefore presently only sub-consciously in the mahat-tattva (material creation) as baddha-jiva while our original 'svarupa' nitya-siddha bodily form is perpetually in Vaikuntha, our 'real unending' home

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[Vedesu]

 

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En Géorgie Union-occupée, un confédéré pleure pendant que les spectateurs observent les drapeaux historiques des régiments de la Géorgie et de la Caroline de Sud partir pour traverser le fleuve de rue Marys dans la Floride, fév. 19, 1865, dans Folkston GA

 

This confedere.... he looks somewhat similar to one of these gentlemen below, I think the one in the middle, although I could be mistaken:

 

 

[krsna]

Fall, No-Fall

BY: BALAVIDYA DASA

 

Feb 3, USA (SUN) — In our previous posting, we have shown how a quotation from a lecture by Srila Prabhupada has been misinterpreted by the "fall-from-Goloka-thru-envy-vadis" to support their odd misconception. In this short posting, we would like to re-present the same ever-fresh conversation to illustrate the intellectual bankruptcy of the "envy-goloka-fall-vadis".

 

However, first, we look to point out another misrepresentation by the "envy-vadis": We have posting explanations of the "fall" of the jiva, with all reference to guru, sadhu, sastra; however, the "fall-vadis" have often labeled the explanation as a "no-fall" theory. This is certainly a disingenuous tactic. Right from our first posting, we have given Vedas to explain that the jiva "falls" from devotionally nascent consciousness while within the border between the spiritual and material worlds that is the Casual Ocean after emanation from Maha-Visnu. So why have the "envy-vadis" presented our "fall" explanation as "no-fall"?

 

Well, we all certainly know that all the acaryas and the Vedas explain the entry of the jiva into the material world as a "fall". Certainly, Srila Prabhupada uses this term. Therefore, we must consider that the reason the "envy-vadis" prefer to stick on this false label is because by applying this term to the ontology we have presented, then this makes it appear that our ontology is different from Srila Prabhupada. Or to put it another way, by saying our version is "no-fall", we are made to appear in opposition to Srila Prabhupada's "fall-theory". Nothing could be further from the Truth.

 

So at this point, we must point out that our description is certainly a "fall-theory". We might call it "Fall, No Fall". The tatastha-jiva 'falls' from the Casual Ocean but there is 'no-fall' from the Supreme Abode of the Lord. Kindly, note that Krsna describes His Supreme Abode as the "param-dham" in the Gita. Certainly, the Casual Ocean is the abode of the Lord, but the Casual Ocean is not the 'Supreme Abode'. The transcendental planets are the Supreme Abode. We have no doubt that "Fall, no-Fall" is also Srila Prabhupada's theory, and in the previous posting have given all guru, sadhu, and sastra evidence accordingly. However it must be pointed out that we are still waiting on the sastra to support "fall from Goloka" from the "envy-vadis". Yet, there is not one sastric word coming forth on this topic from the "Goloka-envy-vadis".

 

No sastra will come, as it is certainly not Srila Prabhupada's philosophy:

 

Conversation from a lecture, Caitanya-caritamrta Adi 7.108, 2.18.1967:

 

• Bhaktijana: When the souls that were never conditioned at all..., do they also have the independence?
  Prabhupada: Yes, but they have not misused. They know that "I am meant for Krsna's service," and they are happy in Krsna's service."

 

 

Above, Srila Prabhupada explains that no jiva falls from the Supreme Abode, because they are situated "in knowledge" and "happiness".

• Bhaktijana: Could they ever misuse it?
  Prabhupada: Yes, they can misuse it also. That power is there. Yes?
  

 

 

Above, Srila Prabhupada explains that the jiva retains his independence in the Supreme Abode. Note, that Srila Prabhupada does not say that they 'do' misuse their independence, rather "that power is there". It is a possibility.

• Devotee: Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krsnaloka, there's no possibility of falling back.
  Prabhupada: No! There is possibility, but he does not come. Just like after putting your hand in the fire, you never put it again if you are really intelligent. So those who are going back to Godhead, they become intelligent.
  

 

 

Above, Srila Prabhupada brilliantly explains that the jiva has the "possibility" of misusing "that power". However, "but, he does not come". He does not fall to the material world again. The jiva does not "misuse that power". Srila Prabhupada explains this in terms of the jiva attaining the spiritual world at this point, relevant to the particular question.

 

So, therefore, in the first interchange, Srila Prabhupada explains that the jivas of the spiritual world do not fall, and in the third interchange, the jivas after attaining the Supreme Abode do not fall. Why? Because, they do not "misuse" their "independence" whilst in these positions because they have "knowledge" and are "happy". Thus in a few lines Srila Prabhupada has wonderfully explained so many deep aspects of our philosophy. One of which is undoubtedly that there is "no-fall" from Goloka, even though jiva theoretically retains the power to misuse his independence. Thus, through Krsna-prema one reaches eternal perfection.

 

As Srila Prabhupada declared:

• 
  "The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode." Srila Prabhupada, purport, Srimad-Bhagavatam. 3.16.26.
  

 

 

So, dear readers, don't be in doubt that you will "fall from the Supreme Abode" once you have "attained" that wondrous place of transcendental perfection, where "every step is a dance, every word is a song". You will not fall. No one falls from "Perfection". If they do fall from "Perfection", then what kind of "Perfection" is that? In fact, to "fall" from that state into abject misery in the material world could only mean that it is "Not-Perfection". So that means there is "Not-Perfection" for the jiva, even in the Supreme Abode. Therefore, the Supreme Abode is not a place of the "Highest Perfection" as the Gita declares along with all Vedas. At least from the point of view of the jivas, Goloka is a place of "Not-Perfection". This badly mistaken philosophy.

 

So now we can understand why this "Goloka-envy-fall-theory" is completely demoniac: It deliberately, paints a picture of "Not-Perfection" for the jiva in Goloka. It paints Goloka as a place of envy and discord. It refutes all Vedas. It suggests that the relationship between the Lord and His devotees is subject to tribulation and subject to sharp, disastrous change. This philosophy, without support from the Vedas, sadhus, and Srila Prabhupada, can only appeal to the ignorant, the spiritually untutored, the unintelligent, and the demoniac. Certainly, even though unlimited zillions and zillions of jivas are in the unlimited universes, there is not one description in the Vedas of one jiva "envy-falling-from-the-Supreme Abode".

 

However, the Vedas expound in the Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad, 4.3.9:

<CENTER>tasya va etasya purunasya dve eva sthane bhavata

idam ca paraloka-sthanam ca sandhyam trtiyam

svapna-sthanam tasmin sandhye sthane tisthan ete

ubhe sthane pasyati idam ca paraloka-sthanam ca

</CENTER>

 

 

"The jiva has access to two places, both of which he may seek, this material world and the spiritual realm.

He is situated in svapna-sthanam, the dream-like third state, on the margin of these two worlds [the Casual Ocean]

. From that middle position he is able to see both the material and the spiritual worlds."

 

 

 

"Further, the following statement from the Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad, 4.3.18, describes the nature of the marginal position of the jiva:

<CENTER>tad yaths mahs matsya ubhe kule' nusancarati purvam ca param caivam evsyam purusa etsv ubhav antav anusancarati svapnantam ca buddhantam ca </CENTER>

 

 

"The symptoms of the marginal existence are like those of a huge aquatic who is capable of living on both the eastern and western sides of the river at his own will. Similarly, the jiva soul, situated within the waters of the Causal Ocean, which lies between the material and spiritual worlds, is able to reside in both the dream world of matter and the spiritual world of divine wakefulness."

 

 

 

To consider that the Lord's Supreme Abode is a place of "Not-Perfection" is a serious ontological mistake, and can only lead to illogical results under argumentation. It is rather like calculating 2+2=3 at the beginning of a long involved calculation. All along the line, everything will be a mistake. If we consider in our Krsna-consciousness contemplations that the Supreme Abode is a place of "envy" and "falling", then we are badly off the mark. We are certainly not contemplating the Lord's Supreme Abode correctly. So the potency of our meditation upon the Absolute Truth will be very much reduced with unfortunate results. Moreover, if we determinedly propagate this mistake amongst the neophyte aspirants, then we will incur great demerit, or perhaps more. Especially, because this mistake is clearly an offence to the Lord, His devotees, the relationship between them, and the Supreme Conscious Abode of the Lord. Therefore, it is demoniac and should be exposed for the welfare of all.

 

Our philosophy is summarized as inconceivable oneness and difference. It is fitting then, that when one sums up the Vedic conclusion on this particular topic, we have the summary: "Fall, No-Fall". "Fall from the Casual Ocean", yet "No-Fall from the Supreme Abode".

 

Yes, that's the Absolute Truth: "One and Different" and "Fall, No-Fall".

 

We hope this is found helpful,

Your servant, Balavidya dasa

[Sarva gattah]

With all due respect to Balavidya dasa (ACBSP), he cannot understand what the 'eternal presents' means.

 

Understanding this is where the secret is found to understanding we ARE always with Krishna and originally came down from Vaikuntha.

Many devotees understand this fact but do not get involved in this childish debate because they know that only by ones personal realizations and not words, they foolishly came from the eternal pastimes of Lord Krishna.

Actually we are still there with Krishna, but presently only 'think and imagine' we are not there. Remember, only by personal realization through the mercy of Srila Prabhupada can this be realized

It was in Brisbane in July 1972 that a devotee began suggesting and kept insisting that the jiva souls originated from the impersonal Brahmajyoti and that no one can fall down from Goloka. Along with the Uni discussion at Armadale and on the bus during classes, this is how the 'origin of the jiva' controversy began in Australia.

The debate ragged for weeks on the bus that idea was quickly rejected in a letter we would eventually receive from Prabhupada that was sent to all Temple Presidents in Australia. It was a very hot topic back then in 1972 as well, but we had Prabhupada who personally guided us to the correct understanding.

Srila Prabhupada - ""Formerly we were with Krsna in His Lila"

Srila Prabhupada - We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on August 6, 1973 ...73/08/06 London, Bhagavad-gita 2.6

Srila Prabhupada - "Actually we are always in the spiritual world, but you are simply covered”. Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973.

Srila Prabhupada - "Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…so actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

We are therefore presently only sub-consciously in the mahat-tattva (material creation) as baddha-jiva while our original 'svarupa' nitya-siddha bodily form is perpetually in Vaikuntha

Srila Prabhupada explains this phenomenon by telling us that presently we are presently caught in past, present and future of the material world. That we can't deny.

 

Srila Prabhupada -"We are experiencing Krsna, the same time factor as the eternal present, in terms of past present future".

 

Theist -"Therefore, it is not enough to just say there is only the eternal present and pretend we are free from time while we continue to revolve in birth and death. A prisoner behind bars for twenty years may shut his eyes and pretend he his release date has already arrived but the fact is he is still behind bars".

 

The material experience of time as past present future is an illusion but it is also very real.

It was in the Temple room at 83 Hereford St. Sydney in early in 1973 that Srila Prabhupada and myself began discussing the paintings of Lord Caitanya and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswat Thakur that I innocently put on the step of his Vysasana to keep them off the floor while I was cleaning. Srila Prabhupada laughed and laughed saying that is not where those Personalities go, the emotion in his eyes and his humility I will never forget. It was during his gentle chastisement of me he said –

Srila Prabhupada – "We have all foolishly come to this material world from the wonderful pastimes of Lord Caitanya and Krsna, and now you have come back, when you eventually go back home back to Godhead you will understand all this"

This was an intimate personal relationship between my Spiritual Master and myself that I will remember this to my last days on this planet.

It is that kind of association that rivets ones understanding that can never be swayed by any other argument.

When one chooses to forget Krishna, one is unwilling to serve Krishna as their perpetual Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha bodily self and therefore, it is that aversion to Krishna that causes the living entity to manifest a secondary version of themselves (nitya baddha) that imagines, thinks and dream they are no longer in Vaikuntha or even Goloka.

This is possible due to the marginal status of the living entity, where exists the free will to be, or not be with Krishna, eternally exists.

That secondary nitya-baddha jiva condition enters the mahat-tattva of divided time and space and is given material form (vessels) by Maha -Vishnu to live out their non Krishna conscious imagination"

Srila Prabhupada – "…We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated?" You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned' Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

The full expression and complete potential of ALL marginal living entities is their perpetual 'svarupa' body that is eternally situated and established within Goloka or Vaikuntha within the realm of the 'eternal present' that is unaffected by the past, present and future of divided time that exists in the material creation or mahat-tattva.

Therefore it can then be said that the marginal living entities who have miss-used their free will and chose to enter the maha-tattva, are only temporarily trapped within the material creation, while they do currently not realize their undying ‘svarupa’ body within the 'perpetual present' of Goloka and Vaikuntha. This is because of being consciously absorbed and restricted to their baddha jiva conscious imagination that is trapped within the divided time of past, present and future within the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu"

Srila Prabhupada - You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…so actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand". In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

Srila Prabhupada - "Actually we are not fallen therefore, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness. As soon as we understand that, "I have nothing to do with. I am simply Krishna's servant. Eternal servant. That's all. Lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Srimad Bhagavatam 2.9.1

Srila Prabhupada - "Our contact with matter is just like dream. Actually we are not fallen. Therefore, because we are not fallen, at any moment we can revive our Krishna consciousness, we break the dream. Similarly, we can break this situation" Srila Prabhupada lecture Tokyo Japan 1972: Srimad Bhagavatam 2.9.1

Srila Prabhupada - "Our separation from Krishna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things". Letter to Madhudvisa Swami

Srila Prabhupada - 'Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-Caritamrita, Adi-lila 7.108–San Francisco, February 18, 1967)

Srila Prabhupada - "We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krishna in His Lila or sport" Letter to Madhudvisa Swami

Srila Prabhupada - "Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only" (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada – 'so svarupa-siddhi is not something artificial. When one becomes perfectly spiritually realised, then he understands what his relationship with Krishna is, and he begins his service in that relationship as father, as friend, as guru or as servant, like that. So this relationship is eternal. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada –"Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what your relationship with Krishna is automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi". (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

Srila Prabhupada - 'No one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.)

This clearly means our nitya-siddha svarupa body can NEVER leave Goloka or Vaikuntha and that we only think or imagine we leave. In this way the mahat-tattva is the destination for where such selfish dreams and non Krishna Conscious thoughts go.

It is there in the material creation that the baddha jiva's are provided with temporary bodily forms created by Maha-Vishnu who is dreaming the entire mahat-tattva or material creation aspect of the Spiritual Sky.

In this way it is Srila Prabhupada explaining to us in very simple English that we all originate from Goloka.

Srila Prabhupada - "Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti 'sadhya' kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya. Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, ". Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

Srila Prabhupada -"The living entity should become purified and regain his svarupa, his original identity" Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48

Srila Prabhupada - "Kāla is exhibited in three features: past, present, and future. That is in the material existence. And if one becomes above the three kālas, in the eternal time… Time is eternal, but in the material existence there is past, present, and future.

Srila Prabhupada – “In the spiritual existence there is no past, no future, only present. Only present. Everything is fresh, present, nitya-navayamāna, only feelings, new, new. That is spiritual existence, ānandāmbudhi-vardhanam, only present—no future, no past. That we cannot realize now, but we can get the knowledge from Vedic literature”.

Srila Prabhupada – “The time factor… In the material world there is past, present, and future. Otherwise, time factor is eternal". Srimad Bhagavatam 3.26.16 by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Bombay, December 25, 1974

Srila Prabhupada - "As soon we come to the spiritual plane, "only present", but: "That we cannot realize now."

Actually there is no birth of the jivas. They are all eternal, like Lord Balarama Himself. Many things in the shastra is said to convince the jivas conditioned in the material world, that their real and only home is Goloka. There are so many things that sastra has told us, whereas in reality, in Goloka Vrndavana dhama, due to the 'eternal presents', these things will be seen in another way". Maha-Vishnu is the creator of the maha-tattva or material world, He can see past present and future. He sees the journey of the arrow from where it begins, how it travels and where it ends - In the meantime we experience free will on another level of mundane time and space in the mahat-tattva

We also certainly did not originate from a plain sheet of uniform consciousness where individual souls emanate from the inactive aspect of the Brahmajyoti, which is living and growing? Srila Prabhupada rejected that idea. It is incorrect because all souls are eternal beings without beginning or end

Many devotees understand this fact but do not get involved in this silly debate because they know that only by ones personal realizations and not words, can one truly understand we have all come from the eternal pastimes of Lord Krishna.

Actually we are still there with Krishna, but presently only 'think and imagine' we are not there.

Remember, only by selfless, prideless and deep personal realizations through the CAUSELESS mercy of Srila Prabhupada, can this be realized.

 

If we are arrogant and proud, like the caste brahmana's, who are so net and clean and expert chanting their slokas (while in their hearts they look down on everyone else instead of being Krishna’s non judgemental servant, then they will spent the next 10,000 births in the material world trapped in their own pride patronizing everyone around them.

[Kulapavana]

wow... you guys are still at it!

[gHari]

Of course some will argue that the movement of the branch caused by the crow taking flight resulted in the fruit falling from the tree. Yet others will conclude that was the fright from feeling the fruit dropping from the branch that caused the crow to fly away. I would propose a third possibilty: someone is chopping down the tree.

[Beggar]

 

 

Now Goloka is Clear

BY: BHAKTA P.K. VIDYAVAN

 

Feb 8, INDIA (SUN) —

I wish to publicly thank Sri Balavidya dasa for sorting out a point that had always put me in a mystery. I am a new devotee. I had been told that we have all come from the Goloka and come to the material world. I was told that we can return there by chanting. So the next question is ‘will we fall again?’ I was told that once returned to Goloka, no one will fall again.

 

This is nice to hear, but why not fall again? After all we fell before, why not again? The answer given was that you remember your lesson and so don’t make the mistake of being envious again. But that means one is staying in the spiritual world because of fearing material suffering. That means one loves Krsna out of fear, not love. If, in the back of the mind we are serving because of fear of material suffering that is forced service, not free love.

 

Also, I asked that if we go back and don’t fall again, then that means we are in a better state than the souls that did not fall yet. We cannot fall, but they can become envious and fall any time. Why? Because they did not learn to fear the material suffering. That means material suffering is necessary to stay safely in Goloka. It means material suffering improves the soul by stopping him from envying Krsna. This does not seem logical or a state of perfection.

 

I was told that for the soul it is natural to love Krsna, but it seems that suffering in the material world is necessary to stop envy of Krsna. Why can’t love stop envy, even in Goloka?

 

And what about the resident souls when I go back to Goloka? The first thing I should do is warn them not to envy Krsna and go to the material world. Perhaps I should call a big meeting in Goloka and give all the souls a description of material suffering and recommend that they don’t envy Krsna because it has serious consequences. Of course, the souls that have been once to the material don’t have to come to the meeting, but perhaps they should come just to be sure they don’t forget the material suffering and fall again. I am sure Krsna will appreciate the meeting as it will help to stop envy in Goloka. Should I help like this in Goloka? Give a warning to the souls that have not yet fallen?

 

When I asked these questions, the youth director in the temple could not answer satisfactorily and became a little disturbed. He said I should not be clever but be submissive or I would not get initiated.

 

I asked, “Can I ask the guru?” I was told that he is too busy, but I can meet him at the initiation ceremony. But I did not want to be initiated if there was a mistake in the philosophy or there was no answer to my question. Also, what’s the use of a guru if you can’t ask him questions, just go to a ceremony to meet him first time?

 

Now the essays of Balavidya dasa have made all things clear: No souls fall from Goloka, and souls only fall from the Causal Ocean after emanation from Krsna in His form of Maha-Visnu. They fall because they choose to reject the supremacy of the Supreme Lord. If they accept the supremacy, then they can go to the spiritual world. The choice is rebellion or surrender. Balavidya dasa has given all the sastra and Srila Prabhupada quotes to support this understanding. Everything in the description of Balavidya dasa is sensible and satisfying. And everything in the envy fall from Goloka idea is illogical and without Vedas.

 

Also when I attain Goloka by chanting, I will not feel embarrassed that I was in Goloka before and gave up my service because of envy. I will feel better to be a new soul in Goloka who didn’t make trouble the last time he was there. So I will not feel uncomfortable.

 

Now when I think of Goloka when I am chanting my mind is peaceful and has no doubts. Goloka is now a perfect place where there is only love of Krsna and no disharmony. How could it be any other way? Balavidya dasa is quite right to say only fools and demons spread the philosophy that there is envy and jealousy in Goloka. It makes a bad picture of Goloka and that is the work of demons.

 

Thank you Balavidya dasa, for clearing up this doubt.

 

Your servant,

Bhakta P.K. Vidyavan

 

[Sarva gattah]

 

Why? Because they did not learn to fear the material suffering. That means material suffering is necessary to stay safely in Goloka. It means material suffering improves the soul by stopping him from envying Krsna. This does not seem logical or a state of perfection.

 

 

How could it be any other way? Balavidya dasa is quite right to say only fools and demons spread the philosophy that there is envy and jealousy in Goloka. It makes a bad picture of Goloka and that is the work of demons.

 

Thank you Balavidya dasa, for clearing up this doubt.

 

Your servant,

Bhakta P.K. Vidyavan

 

 

 

 

 

Ha ha ha ha. Who has this person been speaking to? In all due respects,

Balavidya dasa has NO IDEA how we originally fell down from Vaikuntha or Goloka

 

 

Srila Prabhupada –

"…We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated?" You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned'

Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968

,

 

 

The full expression and complete potential of ALL marginal living entities is their perpetual 'svarupa' body that is eternally situated and established within Goloka or Vaikuntha within the realm of the 'eternal present' that is unaffected by the past, present and future of divided time that exists in the material creation or mahat-tattva.

 

 

Therefore it can then be said that the marginal living entities who have miss-used their free will and chose to enter the maha-tattva, are only temporarily trapped within the material creation, while they do currently not realize their undying ‘svarupa’ body within the 'perpetual present' of Goloka and Vaikuntha. This is because of being consciously absorbed and restricted to their baddha jiva conscious imagination that is trapped within the divided time of past, present and future within the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu"

 

 

Srila Prabhupada -

You are already in the spiritual sky, but you are simply covered. Just like the sun is already there.

You are also already there

…so actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material.

TRY TO UNDERSTAND".

In a

Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

 

 

 

 

[Sarva gattah]

 

"The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode." Purport, Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.16.26

 

Now is there anything clearer than the above? After reading the above, only a dumb fool or mischievous rascal will assert that the great acarya has not given a clear "conclusion" on the matter. Those who knowingly do not accept the above "conclusion" should not posture and parade themselves as disciples of Srila Prabhupada. They are deviants from Srila Prabhupada's "conclusion". And it is their misinterpretation of certain particular statements of Srila Prabhupada that is the cause of any "apparent contradiction", not the original teachings of Srila Prabhupada. "

 

This kind of rhetoric gives us a taste of the dismal philosophical outlook to follow in Balavidya's thesis.

 

He simply dismisses everyone as fake disciples, rascals, and dumb fools, if they do not accept the above statement from Srila Prabhupada as the sole final word on the matter.

 

Well, what about the countless times Srila Prabhupada said that the jiva was originally in Vaikuntha?

 

I guess that doesn't matter to Balavidya dasa. Nevertheless those statements are real and are not the product of stupid people's fantasies. Do we get some type of reason to consider that all of those statements by Srila Prabhupada which are contradictory to the above statement should be neglected?

 

Or that they mean something other then what Srila Prabhupada said? In his own way I guess the next part of his thesis is Balavidya's attempt to reconcile the apparent contradictory claims on the origin of the jiva by Srila Prabhupada.

 

He takes to the writings of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura in order to prove his point, specifically Jaiva Dharma. First off I would like to know whose translation he is using. The translations available for free on the Internet (one by the Gaudiya Math and another by HH Narayana Maharaja) is not the translation he is using.

 

Both of those translations are similar, but they differ a bit in the wording. The translation Balavidya dasa is using differs profoundly from those translations. In fact, the translation he is using is putting forth a philosophy which seems to me to be contradictory to basic Gaudiya tattva.

[Shakti-Fan]

The Goloka viewpoint does not answer the questions of Bhakta P.K. Vidyavan, only the sastric viewpoint would address such questions. You can not have your cake and eat it too.

[Sarva gattah]

 

The Goloka viewpoint does not answer the questions of Bhakta P.K. Vidyavan, only the sastric viewpoint would address such questions. You can not have your cake and eat it too.

 

 

When one chooses to forget Krishna, one is unwilling to serve Krishna as their perpetual Krishna Conscious nitya-siddha bodily self.

 

Therefore it is that aversion to Krishna that causes the living entity to manifest a secondary version of themselves (nitya baddha) that imagines, thinks and dream they are no longer in Vaikuntha or even Goloka.

 

This is possible due to the marginal status of the living entity, where exists the free will to be, or not be with Krishna, eternally exists.

 

 

Srila Prabhupada - ""Formerly we were with Krsna in His Lila"

 

Srila Prabhupada - We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on August 6, 1973 ...73/08/06 London, Bhagavad-gita 2.6

 

Srila Prabhupada - "Actually we are always in the spiritual world, but you are simply covered”. Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973.

 

Srila Prabhupada - "Just like the sun is already there. You are also already there…so actually we are always in the spiritual world. But when you forget Krishna by the cloud of illusion that is material. Try to understand”. In a Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture given in London, on July 30, 1971

 

We are therefore presently only sub-consciously in the mahat-tattva (material creation) as baddha-jiva while our original 'svarupa' nitya-siddha bodily form is perpetually in Vaikuntha.

 

Why do we fall down in this way? Because WE want to be the supreme controller.

 

One can only serve Krishna out of love and only love (service)

If that love is genuine, then 'for them', there is no and never was any material existence, even if they have been to the material world.

 

Only love for Krishna and certainly not fear of the material world, can one regain their eternal constitutional 'svarupa' that is always there in Goloka and always has been.

[Shakti-Fan]

The Sastric Viewpoint helps the conditioned soul understand certain aspects of reality. But since material time is really foreign to the soul the Goloka viewpoint from eternity settles what appears to be some contradictions from the Sastric Viewpoint. The same is true visa versa. There will always appear to contradictions when we try to "know" what is beyond time while we are (or think we are) within time. There will also "appear" to be contradictions when we try to understand the infinite Lord with our finite minds, even if we are hearing from a bonafide spiritual master. When we actually "realise" Krsna then our "knowing" will be completely different. The words may be the same but then we will actually have compassion for others and detachment from this world and what we say or write will have some potency and we will no longer be shouting out into the darkness.

[Sarva gattah]

We CAN understand even now by the 'causeless' mercy of the Spiritual Master.

 

Shakti-Fan says - 'When we actually "realise" Krsna then our "knowing" will be completely different'.

 

Not different, just undercovered.

 

The layer of past, present and future will be lifted that leaves ONLY the 'eternal present' that leaves one with the feeling and responsiveness they have ALWAYS been in Goloka.

 

This can be understand right now if we genuinly want to understand.

 

It is Srila Prabhupada who is saying that nitya-siddha’s never fall down therefore NO-ONE falls down from Vaikuntha?

What does this really mean?

Srila Prabhupada is saying that nitya siddha MEANS never fall down, Srila Prabhupada is not saying that nitya siddha’s can never be covered over (so called fall down), he is saying the memory of being nitya-siddha is covered.

What he means by saying nitya siddha's never fall down is they are always nitya-siddha’s just like the sun is always the sun even though it might be covered by the clouds.

Nitya siddha means eternally liberated or established so when a nitya siddha becomes covered, like the cloud covers the sun, he becomes eternally conditioned or nitya baddha (due to the cloud covering) This is in harmony with the letter below.

Srila Prabhupada – “You are NOT eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). You are eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA)’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

We are ALL nitya-siddha and are only DREAMING we are nitya baddha

Our original position is perpetually established in Goloka (NITYA-SIDDHA) beyond the mundane time and space of the mahat-tattva (material creation) and the impersonal Brahmajyoti

Srila Prabhupada - "We were with Krishna in His Lila ”.

From the perspective of the marginal living entity within the material world, their perpetual 'svarupa body, or real identity in Goloka, always remains there eternally established in the endless 'present', even if they have chosen to enter the material creation of selfish imagination of divided time and space.

Srila Prabhupada is saying that nitya siddha MEANS never falling down, he is saying that nitya siddha’s can be covered over only and their memory of being nitya-siddha forgotten, like one forgets their material body while dreaming.

What he means by saying nitya siddha's never fall down, is they are always nitya-siddha’s just like the sun is always the sun even though it might be covered by the clouds. Nitya siddha means eternally liberated or established, so when a nitya siddha becomes covered, like the cloud covers the sun, he becomes eternally conditioned or nitya baddha (due to the cloud covering)

In fact most devotee's in Goloka never allow their awareness of being nitya-siddha, be covered by nitya baddha however some do allow themselves to be covered. Such inconceivable statements are inconceivable because how is it possible to calculate % and % in an endless Spiritual creation.

The nitya-siddha’s never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha, some however, imagine they do while most never enter the world of imagination and therefore never experience the shackles of Maya as nitya baddha.

Therefore it is due to the cloud covering we cannot see our real eternal nitya-siddha identity because our awareness is now restricted by that cloud covering or nitya-baddha consciousness. This cloud covering is all we are aware off because it has blocked out the sun. We are not able to see the sun shinning due to the cloud covering the sun. The sun is still there, just as our nitya-siddha body is there in Goloka however; it is not realized because of the cloud cover therefore, we are nitya-baddha.

We can’t be nitya-siddha at this time because we cannot see or be aware of that covered identity. Therefore our only present awareness of ourselves is solely nitya-baddha and remains so until we remove the dark cloud covering of material desires by replacing them with devotional Krishna Conscious desires, then gradually the cloud cover or nitya-baddha is dissipated revealing the sun or our eternal nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious identity.

 

Don't think that just because you cannot understand through personal realizations, no one else can.

 

How does the old saying go- 'As I think the whole world thinks?'

 

Thats why we have a Spiritual Master who guides us.

 

Srila Prabhupada initiated me in 1972 and what you read here is what I have always known

[Beggar]

 

Srila Prabhupada initiated me in 1972 and what you read here is what I have always known

 

That's because you are a "finished professor" and require no further instruction.

[realist]

 

We CAN understand even now by the 'causeless' mercy of the Spiritual Master.

 

Shakti-Fan says - 'When we actually "realise" Krsna then our "knowing" will be completely different'.

 

Not different, just undercovered.

 

The layer of past, present and future will be lifted that leaves ONLY the 'eternal present' that leaves one with the feeling and responsiveness they have ALWAYS been in Goloka.

 

Don't think that just because you cannot understand through personal realizations, no one else can.

 

How does the old saying go- 'As I think the whole world thinks?'

 

Thats why we have a Spiritual Master who guides us.

 

Interesting

[Shakti-Fan]

The Villagers and the Train

By Bhakta Rod

Once upon a time many years ago, the British began building trains that would travel far and wide throughout India. In one of the villagers where the train would come, there lived simple village folk who had no idea what a train looked like, so when the time had come to greet the train, the village elders decided sent a young boy to first sight the train and then let everyone know ‘what’ was coming to their village.

On the evening of its expected arrival, the villagers patiently and inquisitively waited for the young boy to return back and tell them what the ‘train’ actually is. Eventually day turned to night and everyone in the Village became anxious and excited, knowing the train’s arrival was forthcoming.

The fact was no one in the Village had any idea of what a train was. So the young boy was told to immediately report back to the Village elders as soon as he identifies the train. In the meantime everyone waited patiently in the dark for the boy to bring the news and satisfy everyone’s curiosity. The night sky was clear and there was a slight breeze in the air, the boy heard the usual sounds of animals although; even they were quite on this still moonless chilly night. Then to his surprise, out of the pitch-black darkness and the still of night he heard this unusual thunderous high-pitched sound that sounded like nothing he had ever heard before. The sound thundered through the night air, then silence, then thundering again. Being thrilled, he was convinced what the train was and excitedly ran back to the village elders and told them,

“The train is a big thunderous sound, an immense sound and nothing else”

Some of the elders were puzzled, but most accepted the news as final and accepted that a train is just a loud thunderous sound. Some however, were still not convinced saying,

‘’How can there be just a sound, what is the cause and source of that sound?

Feeling more inquisitive a few decided to send another young boy down to investigate this horn like sound and if there was more to what a train really is.

They told the second young boy to wait well into the darkness of night until he saw the source of the sound. In due course, after hearing the sound getting louder and louder, to his surprise, he finally saw in the distance what he thought was the source of the sound; it was an extremely bright shinning effulgent light.

Being excited he rushed back to the elders proclaiming,

‘The trains thunderous sound originates from a ‘bright blinding light’

Many at the village where now convinced what a train was and most where satisfied however, still a few were not satisfied and thought

‘Wait a minute, where is that light coming from that makes the horn like sound? Is there more to a train than an impersonal sound or light? ‘

Still not satisfied, the remaining few village elders’ had come to the conclusion that the light also must have a source and were determined to find it, they therefore sent a third boy to investigate what the train really is.

‘Was it more than just a sound and bright light’? The discussed amongst themselves

The third young boy went to investigate and waited patiently for as long as it would take to see the truth of what the train really is. As he waited, the sound grew louder and louder and the light was getting brighter and brighter - then to his surprise, both the thunderous sound and blinding light passed him by.

To his astonishment, he discovered the source of both the sound and light, coming from the form of the train, like carriages that were filled with people like him, all engaging in all kinds of different personal activities?

He excitedly ran back to the village yelling,

‘The train is a structure built by personalities who are engaged in all kinds of activity. This is the source of the sound and light that radiates through the night sky.

In this way the Villagers eventually saw the train for what it really is beyond the sound and the light emanating from it.

‘Similarly beyond this material world and the impersonal Brahmajyoti is the wonderful eternal devotionally active abode of unlimited Lord Vishnu’s on the Vaikuntha planets.

And ultimately Lord Krishna in His supreme abode of Goloka Vrndavana from whence the entire creation radiates.

All glories to Srila Prabhupada, your fallen servant Bhakta Rod

[Shakti-Fan]

 

‘Similarly beyond this material world and the impersonal Brahmajyoti is the wonderful eternal devotionally active abode of unlimited Lord Vishnu’s on the Vaikuntha planets.

And ultimately Lord Krishna in His supreme abode of Goloka Vrndavana from whence the entire creation radiates.

 

Here's two interesting semantical points from Bhakta Rod. First is that he defines everything that exists as the "entire creation". There appears to be a contradiction, i.e., how can the jivas be created by God if they exist eternally? And if the creation radiates from " Lord Krishna in His supreme abode of Goloka Vrndavana", then how are we to understand this? Does everything radiate from Lord Krishna like the rays of the Sun radiate from the Sun? What would be the transitional stage as what is created goes through the process of creation? Can you see now that the Brahmajyoti conception of the origin of the souls is just an attempt to put this process which is beyond time into finite words? It has it's place in the Krishna Conscious philosophy and should not be "swept under the rug", like a nuisance or eyesore that we cannot accommodate. Srila Prabhupada gave both points of view.

[BhaktiK]

Can nitya-siddha associates of Sri Krishna stop being fully Krishna conscious and enter into another state of mind where they are dreaming material thoughts or directly experiencing material life?

 

I can probably find fifty or a hundred slokas that say the associates of Sri Krishna never fall down from their transcendental state of perfection.

 

And in CC Madhya 20 we read the teachings of Sri Krishna Chaitanya to Sanatan Goswami and find that the Lord spoke very clearly about the soul, the atma. The very first thing the Lord says is this:

 

CC Madhya 20.108-109: "It is the living entity's constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krishna because he is the marginal energy of Krishna and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire."

 

Sri Chaitanyadeva never said to Sanatana Gosami that souls fall from Vaikuntha. This FALL FROM VAIKUNTHA concept was never taught by Lord Chaitanya.