No Contradiction in Teachings of Srila Prabhupada on the Fall of the Jiva

[suchandra]

 

 

I can probably find fifty or a hundred slokas that say the associates of Sri Krishna never fall down from their transcendental state of perfection.

 

 

Could be there're intermediate stages and those who take shelter of the Brahman effulgence must surely fall down. This is stated in the śāstra.

"Therefore it is to be understood that when Jaya and Vijaya descended to this material world, they came because there was something to be done for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuṇṭha. Of course, a living entity who desires sāyujya-mukti remains in Krishna’s Brahman effulgence, which is dependent on Krishna’s body (brahmaṇo hi pratiṣṭhāham [Bg. 14.27]). Such an impersonalist who takes shelter of the Brahman effulgence must surely fall down. This is stated in the śāstra (Bhāg. 10.2.32):

 

ye ’nye ’ravindākṣa vimukta-māninas

tvayy asta-bhāvād aviśuddha-buddhayaḥ

āruhya kṛcchreṇa paraṁ padaṁ tataḥ

patanty adho ’nādṛta-yuṣmad-aṅghrayaḥ

 

 

“O Lord, the intelligence of those who think themselves liberated but who have no devotion is impure. Even though they rise to the highest point of liberation by dint of severe penances and austerities, they are sure to fall down again into material existence, for they do not take shelter at Your lotus feet.” The impersonalists cannot reach the Vaikuntha planets to become associates of the Lord, and therefore, according to their desires, Krishna gives them sāyujya-mukti. However, since sāyujya-mukti is partial mukti, they must fall again to this material world. When it is said that the individual soul falls from Brahmaloka, this applies to the impersonalist."

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.1.34

 

Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam: Canto 7: “The Science of God”

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

http://causelessmercy.com/SB7.1.2.htm

[Sarva gattah]

 

Can nitya-siddha associates of Sri Krishna stop being fully Krishna conscious and enter into another state of mind where they are dreaming material thoughts or directly experiencing material life?

 

CC Madhya 20.108-109: "It is the living entity's constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krishna because he is the marginal energy of Krishna and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire."

 

Sri Chaitanyadeva never said to Sanatana Gosami that souls fall from Vaikuntha. This FALL FROM VAIKUNTHA concept was never taught by Lord Chaitanya.

 

Consider this BhaktiK (4.28.59):

tasmims tvam ramaya sprsto

ramamano 'sruta-smrtih

tat-sangad idrsim prapto

dasam papiyasam prabho

 

"My dear friend, when you enter such a body along with the woman of material desires, you become overly absorbed in sense enjoyment. Because of this you have forgotten your spiritual life. Due to your material conceptions, you are placed in various material conditions."

Asruta smrtih is translated by Srila Prabhupada as "without remembrance of spiritual existence." The nature of that spiritual existence, intimate friendship with Krsna has been described in previous verses. Here it is clear that dwelling on the individual word meaning "forgetfulness due to choice" is in fact conclusive.

Also text 4.28.64

 

 

 

evam sa manaso hamso

 

 

 

hamsena pratibodhitah

 

 

 

sva-sthas tad vyabhicarena

 

 

 

nastam apa punah smrtim

 

"In this way both swans live together in the heart. When the other instructs the one swan, he is situated in his constitutional position. This means he regains his original Krsna consciousness, which was lost because of his material attraction."

Very clear translation. The living being was originally Krsna conscious. And he lost this Krsna consciousness because of material attraction. This verse does not say that the jiva was never at any time a servant of Krsna.

The Sanskrit here is also very clear.

The synonyms given by Srila Prabhupada are nastam "which was lost", apa "gained",punah "again",smrtim "real memory."

In other words, that which was lost is regained. I do not see how anyone can argue with this. It is right there in the Bhagavatam, in the Sanskrit. And the purport, naturally, goes right along with it. Here follow some excerpts.

"When the inferior swan is separated from the other swan, he is attracted to material enjoyment. This is the cause of his falldown.

When he hears the instructions of the other swan, he understands his real position and is again revived to his original consciousness."Bhag.4.28.64 purport

"The word sva-sthah, meaning `situated in one's original position, is very significant in this verse.

When one gives up his unwanted attitude of superiority, he becomes situated in his original position.

The word tad-vyabhicarena is also significant, for it indicates that when one is separated from God due to disobedience, his real sense is lost.

Again, by the grace of Krsna and guru, he can be properly situated in his liberated position. These verses are spoken by Srila Narada Muni, and his purpose in speaking them is to revive our consciousness." Bhag. 4.28.64 purport

Narada Muni further states in text 4.29.26:

 

 

 

yadatmanam avijnaya

 

 

 

bhagavantam param gurum

 

 

 

purusas tu visajjeta

 

 

 

gunesu prakrteh sva-drk

 

"The living entity by nature has minute independence to choose his own good or bad fortune, but when he forgets his supreme master, the Personality of Godhead, he gives

himself up to unto the modes of material nature."

The important synonyms are atmanam "the Supreme Soul,"avijnaya "forgetting," Bhagavatam "the Supreme Personality of Godhead," param "supreme,” gurum "the instructor," indicating that one forgets the Supreme Lord Krsna. Note the word Bhagavatam, clearly indicating Krsna, not simply the Supersoul.

In his purport Srila Prabhupada states:

Srila Prabhupada - "It is clearly stated herein that the living entity has a little independence, indicated by the word sva-drk, meaning `one who can see his own welfare".4.29.26'

Srila Prabhupada - “The living entity’s constitutional position is very minute, and he can be misled in his choice. He may choose to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead.” 4.29.26'

Srila Prabhupada "A servant may desire to start his own business and imitate his master, and when he chooses to do so, he may leave the protection of his master".4.29.26

Sometimes he is a failure, and sometimes he is successful. Similarly, the living entity, part and parcel of Krsna, starts his own business to compete with the Lord." Bhag. 4.29.26 purport

It is clear that originally there is a master-servant relationship going on, and that it gets forgotten. Liberation means remembering it.

The living entity's constitutional position is very minute, and he can be misled after making that choice to not stay 'consciously' stay with Krishna and the body they serve Krishna as.

In this way, he chooses to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

The nitya siddha's are eternally with Krishna. There is no suggestion that the original state is “fallen.” There is no suggestion that the original free state of nitya siddha is different from the final free state of nitya siddha.

It is simply a change of consciousness from the original (In Vaikuntha) to the illusionary (within the mahat-tattva) and the back to the original (or perpetual).

Srila Prabhupada "We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately Maya covers us. Formerly we were with Krishna in His Lila, or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration; therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time, it is sometimes said that we are ever conditioned. But this long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krishna consciousness".

Srila Prabhupada "The jiva is originally with Krishna. But even with Krishna “there is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krishna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently.”

Srila Prabhupada - "In the spiritual existence there is no past, no future, only present. Only present. Everything is fresh, present, nitya-navayamāna, only feelings, new, new. That is spiritual existence, ānandāmbudhi-vardhanam, only present—no future, no past. That we cannot realize now, but we can get the knowledge from Vedic literature". Bombay, December 25, 1974

Srila Prabhupada - "The time factor… In the material world there is past, present, and future. Otherwise, time factor is eternal". Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 3.26.16 by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada Bombay, December 25, 1974

Srila Prabhupada - "As soon we come to the spiritual plane, "only present", but: "That we cannot realize now." Bombay, December 25, 1974

Actually there is no birth of the jivas. They are all eternal, like Lord Balarama Himself.

 

Many things in the shastra is said to convince the jivas conditioned in the material world, that their real home is Goloka.

 

There are so many things that sastra has told us, whereas in reality, in Goloka Vrndavana dhama, due to the 'eternal presents', these things will be seen in another way

[BhaktiK]

Krishna is Brahman, Paramatma and Bhagavan

 

Losing our original consciousness means losing our original state of liberated consicousness where we were absorbed in Krishna in his aspect of Brahman.

 

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 24.71

 

'brahma' śabdera artha — tattva sarva-bṛhattama

 

svarūpa aiśvarya kari' nāhi yāńra sama

 

The word 'brahma' indicates the summum bonum, the Absolute Truth, which is greater than all other truths. It is the original identity, and there can be nothing equal to that Absolute Truth.

 

 

There are 13 kinds of santa-bhaktas.

 

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 24.164

 

ei saba śānta yabe bhaje bhagavān

'śānta' bhakta kari' tabe kahi tāńra nāma

 

 

"Thirteen types of yogīs and munis are called śānta-bhaktas, for they render transcendental loving service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead in the neutral stage.

 

 

Included within this list of santa-bhaktas are impersonalists who worship the Lord as a formless Being.

 

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 24.155

 

sagarbha, nigarbha, — ei haya dui bheda

eka eka tina bhede chaya vibheda

The two types of ātmārāma-yogīs are called sagarbha and nigarbha. Each of these is divided into three; therefore there are six types of worshipers of the Supersoul.

 

PURPORT

 

The word sagarbha-yogī refers to a yogī who worships the Supersoul in the Viṣṇu form. The nigarbha-yogī worships the Supersoul without form. The sagarbha and nigarbha yogīs are further categorized: (1) sagarbha-yogārurukṣu, (2) nigarbha-yogārurukṣu, (3) sagarbha-yogārūḍha, (4) nigarbha-yogārūḍha, (5) sagarbha-prāpta-siddhi and (6) nigarbha-prāpta-siddhi.

 

A soul can fall down from that state of Brahman realization. But no soul who is purely in Krishna Consciousness will ever fall down and be lost in Maya.

 

 

BG 9.31 O son of Kunti, declare it boldly that My devotee never perishes.

 

 

In the sastra it is said, aruhya krcchrena param padam tatah patanty adho By very severe austerities they come to the Brahman platform, monism, to become one with the Supreme, but from there he falls down. Why falls down? Anadrta-yusmad-anghrayah. Because they have no information of the shelter of the lotus feet of the Lord. Unless you come to that point, then there is no possibility of eternal happiness. (Vrndavana, October 23, 1976)

 

[indulekhadasi]

Amazing...the thread is going on and on for this one subject that factually isn't too important.

I just don't know how you people do it!

[Sarva gattah]

 

Losing our original consciousness means losing our original state of liberated consicousness where we were absorbed in Krishna in his aspect of Brahman.

 

You miss understand, nothing is lost.

 

Is the Sun lost when we cannot see it due to the cloud cover?

 

Our original consciousness, which is in the shape of a form we call 'svarupa' is always there in Goloka, but simply covered as Srila Prabhupada explains while we are in the material creation OR the impersonal Brahmajyoti.

 

The material creation (mahat-tattva) and the impersonal Brahmajyoti are unnatural states that our counterfeit consciousness known as 'nitya-baddha'

can go.

 

This counterfeit nitya-baddha consciousness is compared to a dream state while our nitya-siddha body is within the perpetual reality of Goloka even while one dreams they are nitya badda.

 

Srila Prabhupada - "We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krishna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately Maya covers us.

 

Srila Prabhupada is saying that nitya siddha MEANS never falling down, he is saying that nitya siddha’s can be covered over only and their memory of being nitya-siddha forgotten, like one forgets their material body while dreaming.

What does Srila Prabhupada mean when he says all nitya siddha's never fall down?

 

What he has actually explained to us is they are always nitya-siddha’s just like the sun is always the sun even though the sun might be covered by the clouds.

 

Nitya siddha means eternally liberated or established, so when a nitya siddha becomes covered, like the cloud covers the sun, he becomes eternally conditioned or nitya baddha (due to the cloud covering ONLY)

 

All of us are nitya-siddha but now in the material world our awareness of who we really are is simply covered.

 

We can’t be nitya-siddha at this time because we cannot see or be aware of that covered identity.

 

Therefore our only present awareness of ourselves in the material world is solely nitya-baddha and remains so until we remove the dark cloud covering of material desires, by replacing them with devotional Krishna Conscious selfless and prideless desires. (Our original state)

 

Only then gradually does the cloud cover or nitya-baddha mundane counterfeit 'consciousness of imaginary dreams' becomes dissipated, revealing the sun (or our real eternal bodily svarupa bodily form) of our eternal nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious identity.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

Actually there is no birth of the jivas. They are all eternal, like Lord Balarama Himself.

 

Many things in the shastra is said to convince the jivas conditioned in the material world, that their real home is Goloka.

 

There are so many things that sastra has told us, whereas in reality, in Goloka Vrndavana dhama, due to the 'eternal presents', these things will be seen in another way

 

 

Tridandiswami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja:

 

 

OUR ROOT CAUSE IS BALADEVA

The root of all jivas, the cause of all jivas, is Baladeva Prabhu. In Vraja, the jivas have manifested from the original Baladeva. They have never come to this world. They have always served Radha and Krsna in madhurya-rasa or sakhya-rasa. From Baladeva comes Mula Sankarsana in Dvaraka. Asanka (innumerable) jivas come from Baladeva in His form as Mula Sankarsana, and they serve Dvarkadhisa and Mathuresa Krsna in so many ways. From Mula Sankarsana comes Maha Sankarsana in Vaikuntha. He manifests the mukta-jivas there, and they eternally serve Rama, Nrsmha, Kalki, Vamana, Narayana and all other svansa incarnations. From Maha Sankarsana comes Karanodakasayi Visnu in the tatastha region, and He manifests the tatastha-jivas. Among them, some become free from maya and some become baddha-jivas, conditioned souls. In this way, we see that all kinds of jivas have come from Baladeva.

It is told like this in the scriptures, but actually there is no birth of the jivas. They are all eternal, like Baladeva Prabhu Himself. This is only said to convince ordinary jivas, conditioned souls. There are so many things that sastra has told us, whereas in reality, in Goloka Vrndavana dhama, these things will be seen in another way.

Gaura Premanande

[Sarva gattah]

 

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>OUR ROOT CAUSE IS BALADEVA

 

The root of all jivas, the cause of all jivas, is Baladeva Prabhu. In Vraja, the jivas have manifested from the original Baladeva. They have never come to this world.

Gaura Premanande

 

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

Yes Srila Prabhupada also says that nitya-siddha’s never fall down and that no one falls down from Vaikuntha?

What does this really mean?

Srila Prabhupada is saying that nitya siddha MEANS never fall down, Srila Prabhupada is not saying that nitya siddha’s can never be covered over (so called fall down), he is saying the memory of being nitya-siddha is covered.

What he means by saying nitya siddha's never fall down is they are always nitya-siddha’s just like the sun is always the sun even though it might be covered by the clouds.

Nitya siddha means eternally liberated or established so when a nitya siddha becomes covered, like the cloud covers the sun, he becomes eternally conditioned or nitya baddha (due to the cloud covering) This is in harmony with the letter below.

Srila Prabhupada – “You are NOT eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA). You are eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned (NITYA-BADDHA)’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

We are ALL nitya-siddha devotees of Krishna and are only DREAMING we are nitya baddha due to our desires to do our own thing seperate from Krishna

Our original position is perpetually established in Goloka (NITYA-SIDDHA) beyond the mundane time and space of the mahat-tattva (material creation) and the impersonal Brahmajyoti

Srila Prabhupada - "We were with Krishna in His Lila ”.

From the perspective of the marginal living entity within the material world, their perpetual 'svarupa body, or real identity in Goloka, always remains there eternally established in the endless 'present', even if they have chosen to enter the material creation of selfish imagination of divided time and space.

Srila Prabhupada is saying that nitya siddha MEANS never falling down, he is saying that nitya siddha’s can be covered over only and their memory of being nitya-siddha forgotten, like one forgets their material body while dreaming.

What he means by saying nitya siddha's never fall down, is they are always nitya-siddha’s just like the sun is always the sun even though it might be covered by the clouds.

 

Nitya siddha means eternally liberated or established, so when a nitya siddha becomes covered, like the cloud covers the sun, he becomes eternally conditioned or nitya baddha (due to the cloud covering)

In fact most devotee's in Goloka never allow their awareness of being nitya-siddha, be covered by nitya baddha however some do allow themselves to be covered. Such inconceivable statements are inconceivable because how is it possible to calculate % and % in an endless Spiritual creation.

The nitya-siddha’s never leave Goloka or Vaikuntha, some however, imagine they do while most never enter the world of imagination and therefore never experience the shackles of Maya as nitya baddha.

Therefore it is due to the cloud covering we cannot see our real eternal nitya-siddha identity because our awareness is now restricted by that cloud covering or nitya-baddha consciousness.

 

This cloud covering is all we are aware off because it has blocked out the sun. We are not able to see the sun shinning due to the cloud covering the sun.

 

The sun is still there, just as our nitya-siddha body is there in Goloka however; it is not realized because of the cloud cover therefore, we are nitya-baddha.

We can’t be nitya-siddha at this time because we cannot see or be aware of that covered identity that is our real endless bodily form serving Krishna in His eternal pastimes in Goloka.

 

Therefore our only present awareness of ourselves is solely nitya-baddha and remains so until we remove that dark cloud covering of material desires that is within the realm of past, present and future within the mahat-tattva DREAM creation of Maha-Vishnu

 

When the cloud cover or nitya-baddha is dissipated, then our real self situated in the 'eternal present' is revealed where our eternal nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious identity endlessly is serving Krishna in pure love (service).

 

Quote:Shakti-Fan

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Tridandiswami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja -

"It is told like this in the scriptures, but actually there is no birth of the jivas. They are all eternal, like Baladeva Prabhu Himself. This is only said to convince ordinary jivas, conditioned souls. There are so many things that sastra has told us, whereas in REALITY, in Goloka Vrndavana dhama, these things will be seen in another way".

 

Gaura Premanande

 

 

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[Beggar]

 

We are ALL nitya-siddha devotees of Krishna and are only DREAMING we are nitya baddha due to our desires to do our own thing seperate from Krishna

 

SWAMI B.V. TRIPURARI

When Bhaktivinoda Thakura speaks about one's svarupa being inherent, he means that one's svarupa exists in potential, just as an infant's capacity to walk is inherent, and given the right circumstances, he or she will eventually walk. The jiva is a manifestation of the tatastha sakti, which is a partial manifestation of the svarupa sakti, the svarupa sakti being the source of all sakti. Unlike the maya sakti, which is a distorted manifestation of the svarupa sakti, the tatastha sakti has the potential to live in the conscious world as an eternal servant of Bhagavan. This potential can be realized when the tatastha sakti comes in contact with the current of the guru-parampara, which is the channel through which the svarupa sakti extends itself to the jiva soul. The partial expression of the svarupa sakti that the jiva is constituted of is insufficient to afford it standing in the lila of Bhagavan in and of itself. In order for it to realize its full potential it requires an investment from above, just as a small business requires an investment of capital to realize its potential to go public.

[Sarva gattah]

 

Here's two interesting semantical points from Bhakta Rod. First is that he defines everything that exists as the "entire creation". There appears to be a contradiction, i.e., how can the jivas be created by God if they exist eternally? And if the creation radiates from " Lord Krishna in His supreme abode of Goloka Vrndavana", then how are we to understand this? Does everything radiate from Lord Krishna like the rays of the Sun radiate from the Sun?

 

In the Goloka Vrndavana and Vaikuntha realm there is no beginning or ending of all that radiates, emanates or appears to 'originate' from the Lords transcendental body.

 

We are thinking of radiates, emanates or originates on a material level, like the sun particles are born from the sun, that’s a material analogy we see with our baddha jiva consciousness under the influence of mundane time and space (past, present and future).

 

However on the absolute level where everything has remained in a state of 'the eternal present' beyond any concept of decay or even creation, the word radiate, originate and emanates are seen on another level (the eternal present)

 

Such words really have no meaning there because everything is without decay and is always perpetually there, even if we may imagine WE are not there in Goloka serving Krishna.

[Sarva gattah]

Quote:SWAMI B.V. TRIPURARI

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>When Bhaktivinoda Thakura speaks about one's svarupa being inherent, he means that one's svarupa exists in potential, just as an infant's capacity to walk is inherent, and given the right circumstances, he or she will eventually walk. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

With all due respects to Tripurai Maharaj who I was fortunate to distribute books with him in Australia in 1974, our full potential svarupa identity has always been there in Goloka, it is something not to be gained, but regained as Srila Prabhupada clearly tells us.

 

Tripurai Maharaj's interpretation is correct when one is attempting to advance in spiritual life as their baddha-jiva consciousness, but there is a bigger picture seen from a different angle.

The full potential of the living entity as nitya-siddha is already there in Goloka, as Srila Prabhupada has told us. It is now simply covered.

[Beggar]

 

The full potential of the living entity as nitya-siddha is already there in Goloka, as Srila Prabhupada has told us. It is now simply covered.

 

A newborn baby boy has the potential to become an old man. He is not already an old man. Words are tools to convey thoughts or ideas not to obscure them. What is the real thought that you want to convey?

 

<cite>Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)</cite> - Cite This Source - <cite>Share This</cite> <!-- google_ad_section_start(name=def) --> po·ten·tial /pəˈtɛnʃəl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[puh-ten-shuhl] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

 

–adjective <table class="luna-Ent"><tbody><tr><td class="dn" valign="top">1.</td><td valign="top">possible, as opposed to actual: the potential uses of nuclear energy. </td></tr></tbody></table> <table class="luna-Ent"><tbody><tr><td class="dn" valign="top">2.</td><td valign="top">capable of being or becoming: a potential danger to safety.</td></tr></tbody></table>

[Sarva gattah]

 

A newborn baby boy has the potential to become an old man. He is not already an old man.

 

But what you are saying is the mundane material platform of birth disease old age and death; we are discussing the Spiritual platform of Goloka that is not affected by past, present and future

We are eternally youthful in Goloka in our perpetual svarupa body in a ‘personal’ rasa relationship with Krishna, that relationship is ‘forever there’

 

Yet is presently covered by material consciousness (the mahat-tattva cloud that is the dream of Maha-Vishnu)

 

 

 

[Shakti-Fan]

 

But what you are saying is the mundane material platform of birth disease old age and death; we are discussing the Spiritual platform of Goloka that is not affected by past, present and future

We are eternally youthful in Goloka in our perpetual svarupa body in a ‘personal’ rasa relationship with Krishna, that relationship is ‘forever there’

 

Yet is presently covered by material consciousness (the mahat-tattva cloud that is the dream of Maha-Vishnu)

 

 

That's why the experience of actually being with Krsna is not exactly the same as it manifests in our English language. Remember I wrote - 'When we actually "realise" Krsna then our "knowing" will be completely different'. Maybe "completely" is too strong of a word for you in this context. If you are viewing the situation from the aspect that when the mayik veil is lifted we are with Krsna all along and take that to mean that we are already with Krsna, then that would mean that we are already spiritually awake. But practically we can understand that we are not, in fact we are still very much in the bodily concept of life and not exactly experiencing spiritual ecstacy at every moment but rather suffering like anything. For instance you know that Sridhar Maharaja would differ from Srila Prabhupada on the idea that "we have come down from Vaikuntha some millions of years ago".

Now it seems from the Narayana Maharaja quote that we have been using that he has harmonized both positions, yet it doesn't seem that he would support your position on how you try to fit the no fall from Vaikuntha statement by Prabhupada into your view. From an objective viewpoint I have been trying to show you the contradictory nature of the way you apply your viewpoint. But you either don't understand what I am saying or you just shut down for you see it as a threat.

 

[BhaktiK]

 

Nitya siddha means eternally liberated or established, so when a nitya siddha becomes covered, like the cloud covers the sun, he becomes eternally conditioned or nitya baddha

 

This is not what the Bhagavatam says.

 

 

SB 11.2.35: O King, one who accepts this process of devotional service to the Supreme Personality of Godhead will never blunder on his path in this world. Even while running with eyes closed, he will never trip or fall.

 

Your idea is not taught in the Upanishads or Vedas say either.

 

And it is not what Sri Chaitanya taught to his disciples.

 

Sri Chaitanya explained to Sanatan Goswami in great detail how souls emerge from Brahman and go to Goloka. Sri Chaitanya never said that souls sometimes emerge from Goloka and enter Brahman or Maya.

 

The words and direct teachings of Sri Chaitanya and his direct disciples Rupa and Sanatana are of more significance than the words of any of his later successors (including Srila Prabhupada).

 

 

CC Ādi 8.12: One who does not show respect unto this merciful Lord, Caitanya Mahāprabhu, or does not worship Him should be considered a demon, even if he is very much exalted in human society.

 

CC Ādi 8.13: Therefore I say again, lifting my arms: O fellow human beings, please worship Śrī Caitanya and Nityānanda without false arguments!

 

CC Ādi 8.14: Logicians say, "Unless one gains understanding through logic and argument, how can one decide upon a worshipable Deity?"

 

CC Ādi 8.15: If you are indeed interested in logic and argument, kindly apply it to the merciful teachings of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. If you do so, you will find it to be strikingly wonderful.

 

CC Ādi 8.16: A person can chant the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra for many births and not attain Krishna's feet and Krishna prema.

 

(If one is infested with the ten offenses in the chanting of the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, despite his endeavor to chant the holy name for many births, he will not get the love of Godhead that is the ultimate goal of this chanting... Therefore, please worship Śrī Caitanya and Nityānanda without false arguments!)

 

CC Ādi 8.17: "By cultivating philosophical knowledge one can understand his spiritual position and thus be liberated, and by performing sacrifices and pious activities one can achieve sense gratification in a higher planetary system, but the devotional service of the Lord is so rare that even by executing hundreds and thousands of such sacrifices one cannot obtain it."

 

CC Ādi 8.18: If a devotee wants liberation or material sense gratification from the Lord, Kṛṣṇa immediately delivers it, but pure devotional service He keeps hidden.

 

 

 

People who are opposing or arguing against the original teachings of Sri Chaitanyadeva will be reborn and go to school on earth again so they can learn the real teachings of Guru-Gauranga. They will need to learn the true teachings of Lord Chaitanya before they ever get to enter Goloka.

[BhaktiK]

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 10.88.25-26

 

ajānantaḥ prati-vidhiḿ tūṣṇīm āsan sureśvarāḥ

tato vaikuṇṭham agamad bhāsvaraḿ tamasaḥ param

yatra nārāyaṇaḥ sākṣān nyāsināḿ paramo gatiḥ

śāntānāḿ nyasta-daṇḍānāḿ yato nāvartate gataḥ

 

 

The great demigods could only remain silent, not knowing how to counteract the benediction. Then Lord Śiva reached the luminous realm of Vaikuṇṭha, beyond all darkness, where the Supreme Lord Nārāyaṇa is manifest. That realm is the destination of renunciants who have attained peace and given up all violence against other creatures. Going there, one never returns.

 

PURPORT

 

According to Śrīla Śrīdhara Svāmī, Lord Śiva entered the planet of Śvetadvīpa, a special outpost of the spiritual world within the confines of the material universe. There, on a beautiful white island surrounded by the celestial ocean of milk, Lord Viṣṇu rests on the serpent bed of Ananta Śeṣa, making Himself available to the demigods when they need His help.

[Sarva gattah]

Quote:BhaktiK

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Sarva gattah

Nitya siddha means eternally liberated or established, so when a nitya siddha becomes covered, like the cloud covers the sun, he becomes eternally conditioned or nitya baddha'

 

Originally Posted by BhaktiK

This is not what the Bhagavatam says.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

Bhaktik I suggest you study carefully what Srila Prabhupada is saying

 

Srila Prabhupada – “Established means re-establish. It is already established. We have got different types of relationship. That is called svarupa-siddhi. Svarupa-siddhi. When you are perfect in spiritual life, you will understand what is your relationship with Krishna automatically. That is called svarupa-siddhi”. (Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture, December 7, 1974, Bombay)

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

 

Srila Prabhupada "The jiva is originally with Krishna. But even with Krishna “there is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krishna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently.”

 

Srila Prabhupada - “Everyone has got a particular relationship with Krishna in his original constitutional position". (Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban

 

Srila Prabhupada -"Ones original constitutional position will be revealed gradually as you advance in devotional service in the prescribed rules and regulations as they are directed in the shastras and by spiritual master. When you are trained up properly, you come to the platform of raga-marga, then your devotional si–… That is called svarupa-siddhi. (Nectar of Devotion lecture, 20 October 1972, Vrindaban)

 

Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated?…” You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned” Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

 

The conclusion is all of us have originally come down from Vaikuntha some millions of years ago as Srila Prabhupada clearly told us

[Sarva gattah]

 

That's why the experience of actually being with Krsna is not exactly the same as it manifests in our English language. Remember I wrote - 'When we actually "realise" Krsna then our "knowing" will be completely different'. Maybe "completely" is too strong of a word for you in this context.

 

If you are viewing the situation from the aspect that when the mayik veil is lifted we are with Krsna all along and take that to mean that we are already with Krsna, then that would mean that we are already spiritually awake.

 

But practically we can understand that we are not, in fact we are still very much in the bodily concept of life and not exactly experiencing spiritual ecstacy at every moment but rather suffering like anything.

 

For instance you know that Sridhar Maharaja would differ from Srila Prabhupada on the idea that "we have come down from Vaikuntha some millions of years ago".

 

Now it seems from the Narayana Maharaja quote that we have been using that he has harmonized both positions, yet it doesn't seem that he would support your position on how you try to fit the no fall from Vaikuntha statement by Prabhupada into your view.

 

From an objective viewpoint I have been trying to show you the contradictory nature of the way you apply your viewpoint. But you either don't understand what I am saying or you just shut down for you see it as a threat.

 

 

I understand where you are comimg from however, in simple terminology, our presents is always in Goloka and we are simply dreaming we are not there with Krishna.

 

This is how Srila Prabhupada has described our 'fall down' from Goloka to us. Narayana Maharaja sees things in another way and Sridhar Maharaj sees things different again however, I am only interested in what Srila Prabhupada says, who rejects out-right Sridar Maharaj's idea that we originate from the impersonal Brahmajyoti

 

‘It is the jivas who are the attendants in His Sports. They become attached to matter, having deviated from their own essential nature as the result of their desire for enjoyment. But when again the soul . . . gains true wisdom of the transcendental region of God . . . he begins to get back his pure essential nature . . .’ Sri Chaitanya’s Teachings, page 323.

 

Srila Prabhupada ‘The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity, misusing his tiny independence, wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world.’ (Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54, purport)

 

Srila Prabhupada - ‘Every living being, out of many, many billions and trillions of living beings has a particular relationship with the Lord eternally. That is called svarupa. By the process of devotional service, one can revive that svarupa, and that stage is called svarupa-siddhi–perfection of one’s constitutional position’. Introduction to the Bhagavad Gita as it is

 

Srila Prabhupada - ‘We are also expansions of Krishna’s form. These jivas, the living entities… Krishna is expanding in two ways, svamsa and vibhinnamsa. Svamsa means Vishnu. One extension, expansion, is just directly He Himself. And another expansion is separated from Him. That separated from Him (marginal) we are’. Srimad-Bhagavatam lecture 1.3.1-3 — San Francisco, March 28, 1968

 

Srila Prabhupada explains to us that this dreaming condition (in the material creation or mahat-tattva or the impersonal Brahmajyoti) is called non-liberated life (inferior nitya-baddha bodiless conscious condition), and this is just like a dream.

 

Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krishna consciousness (remembering our superior nitya-siddha-svarupa perpetual Krishna Conscious body) then this period is considered as a second”.

 

Ravindra Svarup Prabhu ISKCON GBC member - "When we “return” to the spiritual world, it will only be to discover that indeed we never left, and there has always been right here".

 

Ravindra Svarup Prabhu ISKCON GBC member -"We are right now with Krsna, for Krsna consciousness is our svarupa, our eternal identity and perpetual constitutional position. We need only wake up and see where we are".

 

Ravindra Svarup Prabhu ISKCON GBC member -"All this is known to Srila Prabhupada and to the acaryas. They know how one can fall from a place no one falls from, enter into an ignorance that has always been, and return to a place one never actually left".

 

Ravindra Svarup Prabhu ISKCON GBC member - "Because such matters are inconceivable to mundane minds, when teachers speak of such things their words may seem contradictory. But in one way or another they all tell the whole truth" Ravindra Svarup dasa web site

[Shakti-Fan]

 

... however, I am only interested in what Srila Prabhupada says, who rejects out-right Sridar Maharaj's idea that we originate from the impersonal Brahmajyoti

 

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja:

 

From Maha Sankarsana comes Karanodakasayi Visnu in the tatastha region, and He manifests the tatastha-jivas. Among them, some become free from maya and some become baddha-jivas, conditioned souls. In this way, we see that all kinds of jivas have come from Baladeva.

It is told like this in the scriptures, but actually there is no birth of the jivas. They are all eternal, like Baladeva Prabhu Himself. This is only said to convince ordinary jivas, conditioned souls. There are so many things that sastra has told us, whereas in reality, in Goloka Vrndavana dhama, these things will be seen in another way.

Gaura Premanande

 

So Srila Sridhar Maharaja is not giving a concoction but rather something which is right out of sastra, " sastra has told us". This is quite clear, so I don't know why you are saying that Sridhar Maharaja is giving a unique opinion?

 

Srila Prabhupada:

According to Visnu Purana, Bhagavad-gita and all other Vedic literature's, the living entities are generated from the tatastha energy of the Lord. (Bhag. 3.7.9, purport)

 

The conclusion is that the origin of all life is the bodily effulgence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is confirmed in Brahma-samhita: yasya prabha prabhavato jagad-ananda-koti. (Bhag. 4.30.5 purport)

 

Here is clear evidence that Srila Prabhupada also gives the sastric version as well as the Goloka viewpoint.

 

Saying that we are all nitya-siddha but have forgotten is only one viewpoint that Srila Prabhupada has given. He has also told us,

 

 

Nitya-siddhas means they never come in contact with this material world, and even if they come here for some business, they do not forget their position. That is nitya-siddha. Try to understand. (Bg. Lecture, July 14, 1973, London)

 

Obviously it is us, the conditioned souls who have forgotten our position.

[Sarva gattah]

Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

 

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>The full potential of the living entity as nitya-siddha is already there in Goloka, as Srila Prabhupada has told us. It is now simply covered.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>We are ALL nitya-siddha devotees of Krishna and are only DREAMING we are nitya baddha due to our desires to do our own thing seperate from Krishna

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by CCC

Is it possible to falldown from the spiritual world (Vaikuntha) ? NO

Can I come by my free will to the material world from Vaikuntha or Goloka? YES</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

 

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>There is only two kinds of living entities, Vishnu tattva and jiva tattva.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>

Srila Prabhupada - "We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago." - Lecture on Bhagavad-gita on August 6, 1973 ...

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

Srimad Bhagavatam 6.1.49: “As a sleeping person acts according to the body manifested in his dreams and accepts it to be himself, so one identifies with his present body, which he acquired because of his past religious or irreligious actions, and is unable to know his past or future lives”.

No One’s perpetual devotional body falls from Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha that is not possible?

 

One only thinks they are fallen, or dreams they are fallen, but in unadulterated reality, one’s authentic bodily self never falls down

Srila Prabhupada - “Actually No one falls from Vaikuntha, We really do not fall. We think we are fallen, we dream we are this body or that body. But this is just dreaming meaning we have forgotten our original situation serving Krishna due to our sub-conscious dreaming that transports us to a far, far away place (the mahat-tattva) without Krishna”.

[BhaktiK]

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja is not giving a concoction but rather something which is right out of sastra

 

Precisely

 

Chaitanya Mahaprabhu taught Sanatan Goswami that souls emerge from Brahman and go to Goloka. Chaitanyadeva never said anyone can emerge from Goloka and fall into Maya.

[Beggar]

 

There is only two kinds of living entities, Vishnu tattva and jiva tattva.

 

Can you prove this from quotes from sastra?

[BhaktiK]

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 20.111

 

kṛṣṇera svābhāvika tina-śakti-pariṇati

 

cic-chakti, jīva-śakti, āra māyā-śakti

 

SYNONYMS

 

kṛṣṇera — of Lord Kṛṣṇa; svābhāvika — natural; tina — three; śakti — of energies; pariṇati — transformations; cit-śakti — spiritual potency; jīva-śakti — spiritual sparks, living entities; āra — and; māyā-śakti — illusory energy.

 

TRANSLATION

 

"Lord Kṛṣṇa naturally has three energetic transformations, and these are known as the spiritual potency, the living entity potency and the illusory potency.

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 20.112

 

viṣṇu-śaktiḥ parā proktā kṣetrajñākhyā tathā parā

 

avidyā-karma-saḿjñānyā tṛtīyā śaktir iṣyate

 

SYNONYMS

 

viṣṇu-śaktiḥ — the potency of Lord Viṣṇu; parā — spiritual; proktā — it is said; kṣetra-jña-ākhyā — the potency known as kṣetrajña; tathā — as well as; parā — spiritual; avidyā — ignorance; karma — fruitive activities; saḿjñā — known as; anyā — other; tṛtīyā — third; śaktiḥ — potency; iṣyate — known thus.

 

TRANSLATION

"'Originally, Kṛṣṇa's energy is spiritual, and the energy known as the living entity is also spiritual. However, there is another energy, called illusion, which consists of fruitive activity. That is the Lord's third potency.'

 

PURPORT

 

This is a quotation from the Viṣṇu Purāṇa (6.7.61). For a further explanation of this verse, refer to Ādi-līlā, Chapter Seven, verse 119.

 

 

 

An alternate reading of verse 2.20.112:

 

"'Visnu sakti (cit sakti) is spiritual, and the energy known as the living entity is also spiritual. However, there is another energy, called illusion, which consists of fruitive activity. That is the Lord's third potency.'

 

 

Lord Chaitanya makes a distinction between the para-sakti (cit-sakti, antaranga-sakti) and the jiva sakti. They are different.

[Beggar]

Swami B.V. Tripurari,

When Bhaktivinoda Thakura speaks about one's svarupa being inherent, he means that one's svarupa exists in potential, just as an infant's capacity to walk is inherent, and given the right circumstances, he or she will eventually walk. The jiva is a manifestation of the tatastha sakti, which is a partial manifestation of the svarupa sakti, the svarupa sakti being the source of all sakti. Unlike the maya sakti, which is a distorted manifestation of the svarupa sakti, the tatastha sakti has the potential to live in the conscious world as an eternal servant of Bhagavan. This potential can be realized when the tatastha sakti comes in contact with the current of the guru-parampara, which is the channel through which the svarupa sakti extends itself to the jiva soul. The partial expression of the svarupa sakti that the jiva is constituted of is insufficient to afford it standing in the lila of Bhagavan in and of itself. In order for it to realize its full potential it requires an investment from above, just as a small business requires an investment of capital to realize its potential to go public.

This means that the baddha jiva becomes infused with the svaupa sakti through the grace of Srimati Radharani and Her representative, Sri Guru.

"The partial expression of the svarupa sakti that the jiva is constituted of is insufficient to afford it standing in the lila of Bhagavan in and of itself."

So this is a prime difference between how a baddha jiva and a jivan mukta in the spiritual world are "constituted". Without this infusion of svarupa shakti or what Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur sometimes refers to as cit-shakti the jiva cannot stand in the lila of Bhagavan. Do you think that Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur made all this up and that he was some kind of an impersonalist?

[Sarva gattah]

 

Precisely

 

Chaitanya Mahaprabhu taught Sanatan Goswami that souls emerge from Brahman and go to Goloka. Chaitanyadeva never said anyone can emerge from Goloka and fall into Maya.

 

You misunderstand completely. Your impersonal understanding and interpretation of past Acharays is nonsense.

 

This is how Srila Prabhupada has described our 'fall down' from Goloka to us.

 

Srila Prabhupada says, (He rejects out-right Sridar Maharaj's idea that we originate from the impersonal Brahmajyoti), all living entities that have come to the material world, have all come down from Goloka some millions of years ago.

 

Sri Chaitanya’s Teachings, page 323- "It is the jivas who are the attendants in His Sports. They become attached to matter, having deviated from their own essential nature as the result of their desire for enjoyment. But when again the soul gains true wisdom of the transcendental region of God he begins to get back his pure essential nature"

Srila Prabhupada - “By the grace of Krishna, we have complete freedom. Because the Lord is kind to us, we can live anywhere, either in the spiritual sky or in the material sky, upon whichever planet we desire.

Srila Prabhupada - However, misuse of this freedom causes one to fall down into the material world and suffer the threefold miseries of conditioned life.

Srila Prabhupada - Milton in Paradise Lost nicely illustrates the living of a miserable life in the material world by dint of the soul’s choice. Similarly, by choice, the soul can regain paradise and return home, back to Godhead.” Caitanya-caritamrita, Adi Lila 5.22, Purport

Devotee: Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krishnaloka, there’s no possibility of falling back.

Prabhupada: No! There is possibility. . . However generally once one has experienced the misery of the material world, he keeps perfect intelligence to not misuse his free will again. It is these experienced souls who will never return or fall from Vaikuntha. Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108 San Francisco, February 18, 1967

Acyutananda: .....But in the Gita, it says, "Once coming there, he never returns."

Prabhupada: But if he likes, he can return.

Acyutananda: He can return.

Prabhupada: “That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown. Morning Walk--February 19, 1976, Mayapura

Srila Prabhupada then cites the verse from Prema-Vivarta explaining the cause of the living beings original sub-conscious fall to the material world:

Acyutananda: What is the first birth? What is the cause of the first birth?

Prabhupada: Yes. That is stated in the Prema-Vivarta:

 

 

 

krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare

 

 

 

 

 

 

nikata-stha maya tare japatiya dhare

 

“We are eternal servant of Krishna. As soon as we want to become master, that is the beginning of our first birth in the material world. We have got independence. Because, Krishna says, mamaivamso jiva bhutah—we are part and parcel of Krishna—so Krishna has got full independence, but we are minute.

 

Prabhupada: Therefore, we have got minute independence. Our business is to serve Krishna, but as soon as we give up this idea, we want to become master. That is the beginning of our material birth. Lecture on Srimad-Bhagavatam 5.5.2 Hyderabad, April 11, 1975

[bhaktajan]

 

Originally Posted by Beggar Can you prove this from quotes from sastra?

 

Are you kidding, Mr. Begger-ji? Just remember this Parable:

 

BUD: Nicknames, pet names. Now, on the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">St. Louis</st1:place></st1:City> team we have Who's

on first,What's on second, I Don't Know is on third---

LOU: That's what I want to find out; I want you to tell me the names

of the fellows on the <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">St. Louis</st1:place></st1:City> team.

BUD: I'm telling you: Who's on first, What's on second, I Don't Know

is on third.

LOU: You know the fellows' names?

BUD: Yes.

LOU: Well, then, who's playin' first?

BUD: Yes.

LOU: I mean the fellow's name on first base.

BUD: Who.

LOU: The fellow playin' first base for <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">St. Louis</st1:place></st1:City>.

BUD: Who.

LOU: The guy on first base.

BUD: Who is on first.

LOU: Well what are you askin' me for?

BUD: I'm not asking you---I'm telling you: Who is on first.

LOU: I'm asking you---who's on first?

BUD: That's the man's name!

LOU: That's who's name?

BUD: Yes.

LOU: Well go ahead and tell me.

BUD: Who.

LOU: The guy on first.

BUD: Who.

LOU: The first baseman!

BUD: Who is on first!

LOU: Have you got a first baseman on first?

BUD: Certainly!

LOU: Then who's playing first?

BUD: Absolutely!