Vaisnava Aparadha: When is it OK to find fault with devotees???

[krsna]

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Vaisnava Aparadha

 

BY: ANANDA SVARUPA DASA

 

 

Jan 8, AMSTERDAM, NETHERLANDS (SUN) —

Lets face it, no sincere devotee likes to criticize another devotee. Fault-finding is foreign to a devotee. We address each other as Prabhu and that term leaves absolutely no room for criticism. Quite the contrary. Even the most abject beginner full of material imperfections, if he chants Hare Krsna and accepts the process of Krsna consciousness he or she is to be considered a

Vaisnava

and to criticize such a devotee is

Vaisnava aparadha

. However, if someone

uses

the position of devotee to mask some ulterior motive or if someone accepts a position in the devotee community to further some hidden agenda, then criticism is not only allowed, it is mandatory, and to not expose the fault implicates one in the deception.

 

 

We don’t like to see devotees like Satsvarupa dasa criticized. We don’t like to see the GBC members criticized. We don’t like to see the BBT trustees criticized. We don’t like to see certain gurus and

sannyasis

criticized. However, these devotees accepted a position of high responsibility and esteem in the devotee community and the community has the right to expect from them a behavior fully consonant with that position.

 

 

If you present yourself for who you are, without pretense or duplicity, despite myriad faults no devotee in his right mind will criticize you. However, if you pretend to be who you’re not, if you have a history of crooked dealings based on diplomacy and deceit, if your position has been achieved and is maintained through politics and manipulation, then not to criticize you is

aparadha

to Srila Prabhupada, to his movement and to what he stood for.

 

Those in leadership position in ISKCON are expected to do their service according to the standards Prabhupada set up. These standards are no secret and are well known to the larger percentage of his disciples. Spiritually speaking, the difference between the times when Prabhupada was with us and now, is like day and night. No wonder some of us find fault. We find fault not because we are addicted to fault finding. No. We find fault because fault is there.

:pray:

:pray:

 

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[yogesh]

Critisize and find fault for the sake of finding faults (to bash someone/institution) or do we do this to correct/help devotees to progress in their spiritual Life? Know your own motivation.

 

Yes Sirla Prabhupada has set standard for leaders and devotees taking up Sannyas. These standards must be maintained because new devotees look up to leaders to lead by example.

 

If they deviate from Guru, Sadhu & Shastra then yes corrective action needs to be taken. This needs to be done inorder to maintain purity.

 

Just my 2 cents

 

Hare Krsna/(Krishna)

 

Jay Sirla Prabhupada

[suchandra]

 

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Vaisnava Aparadha

 

BY: ANANDA SVARUPA DASA

 

 

 

If you present yourself for who you are, without pretense or duplicity, despite myriad faults no devotee in his right mind will criticize you

.

:pray:

:pray:

 

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Vaishnavas like SDG should initiate "on behalf" of Srila Prabhupada more as agents and priests, and not claim to be God's direct pure successor acharya and Srimati Radharani's gopi manjari. Why he wants to be a diksha-guru and sin-absorbing saint like Jesus? Looks like a foolish force of habit? Of course now he fully stopped to initiate, officially.

 

Even ISKCON's own leaders are stating how the movement is disintegrating. And now it seems that even ISKCON's leaders themselves are disintegrating, for HH Sacinandana Swami, has recently announced that he will be temporarily "retiring" from active guru duties due to ill-health, and that this breakdown seems to be affecting more and more of his colleagues:

"My critical health situation is nothing unique. Several of my Godbrothers are in similar or even worse situations. Some have died early deaths, whereas others battle chronic illness."

(HH Sacinandana Swami, 'Leave of absence letter', 2007)

[theist]

 

Critisize and find fault for the sake of finding faults (to bash someone/institution) or do we do this to correct/help devotees to progress in their spiritual Life? Know your own motivation.

 

Yes Sirla Prabhupada has set standard for leaders and devotees taking up Sannyas. These standards must be maintained because new devotees look up to leaders to lead by example.

 

If they deviate from Guru, Sadhu & Shastra then yes corrective action needs to be taken. This needs to be done inorder to maintain purity.

 

Just my 2 cents

 

Hare Krsna/(Krishna)

 

Jay Sirla Prabhupada

 

"Know your own motivation." Great point. We get put into an awkward situation when these big names turn charleton. We must either speak out against the deception even if it means going against those who have done tons more service then we are ever likey to do or remain silent and watch the wolves devour the innocent.

 

Silence means agreement and makes us complicant in the crime.

 

I think the only way out of this trap for us is to take this advice from yogesh seriously and correct our motivation for speaking out for speaking out we must.

[suchandra]

 

These standards must be maintained because new devotees look up to leaders to lead by example.

 

 

 

New devotees only look up to leaders? Lets say a mountaineer, is he only looking up to his mountain guide? When he is stepping on the climbing iron he must know that the mountain guide knows his job and fixed the step iron properly. Otherwise if the mountain guide falls he will sweep along the new mountaineers with him and they all crash with their leader.

This is the actual situation in ISKCON, a fallen guru/sannyasi also spoils the live of his subordinates, causes tremendous damage in the lives of innocent people. So far no one ever brought this up, because the lives of the small devotees who surrendered everything and do all the work is considered as useless cannon fodder? The fallacy of this kind of superficial thinking could be that there're lots more karmic reactions waiting than expected.

Krishna Himself warns us repeatedly, better remain a streetsweeper than become a pseudo.

Spoiling the lives of innocent people produces the most heavy reactions.

Now people are monitoring SDG, what is this person actually doing?

Means SDG becomes responsible for millions of sinful activities coz people justify their sinful living by his example.

[vaisnavapada]

I have one question. Those who develop duplicity and crookedness, are they like politicians? Will they ever develop any service, I mean *real* service, aptitude by subjugating themselves under an advanced Vaisnava?

[suchandra]

 

I have one question. Those who develop duplicity and crookedness, are they like politicians? Will they ever develop any service, I mean *real* service, aptitude by subjugating themselves under an advanced Vaisnava?

Good point, could be that when you have right now the best opportunity to do the right thing but you deliberate act wrongly, you are thrown into a cycle of so many births of getting cheated and you are helplessly caught up, can't figure why this happens.

This is the meaning of creating the quality of your future births by your own present actions.

[bhaktajan]

 

Originally Posted by suchandra . . .This is the actual situation in ISKCON, a fallen guru/sannyasi also spoils the live of his subordinates, causes tremendous damage in the lives of innocent people. So far no one ever brought this up, because the lives of the small devotees who surrendered everything and do all the work is considered as useless cannon fodder? . . .

You are all simply "transferring" your own "unresolved personal/emotional existential angst" and superimposing it on others!

No other man can rule on who can/shall have sex.

Are any of these fallen gurus one of your own fallen gurus?

If so what significance is it to your life?

I could have taken initiation from Bhavanada, Ayutananda, Ramesvara, Kirtananda, Hamsaduta, and almost did from Bhaktatirtha & Bhaktisvarupa Damodara, Narayan Maharaj, or Sridhar Swami but I didn't --I'm still a devotee in Iskcon doing service without misgivings. I have lost so much wealth, possessions and loved ones along the way--but we soldier on.

You're all whining girlly-men!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't respond to this post, just burn with desire to whip out your false ego.

Get yourself to an ashram and cut some vegetables and be satisfied with that common service.

You are in seperation and you're doing it to keep your stash, I wasn't born yesterday.

Newcomers to ashram life must be prepared to be bereft of all comforts until they are comfortable with their quota of austerity.

So many of us entered the ashram life days or weeks after having still engaged in all the maya we could before we took up residence.

Renunciation extends to controling the mind, body and tongue --I guess that you're lacking in that, while away from ashram life.

If a highly positioned 'person' falls from the standard --there is nothing remarkable about it. You are all most fallen [my speculation] and therefore you are all keeping your own selves at a distance from ashram life and it's duties.

WE WILL ALL GROW OLD SOON ENOUGH AND YOU ALL MUST PREPARE TO JOIN TOGETHER AT OUR OWN VANAPRASTHA ASHRAM(S).

God speed all ye blessed persons,

If, God forbid, any of you upstarts fall ill or lame do you realize how quite you would then become?

Krsna & Balarama are already at your sides, look forward and seek out Seva feeling confidant that "you are provided for". So quit your Histronics and make history instead.

When you lay down to rest: feel, really feel the comfort. That comfort is the embrace of Krsna’s shakti in it’s totality—the mercy is always available to us devotees. We have a carrot now, beware the stick.

your barking dog,

Bhaktajan

[suchandra]

 

 

your barking dog,

Bhaktajan

"Apaiśunam means that one should not find fault with others or correct them unnecessarily. Of course, to call a thief a thief is not fault-finding, but to call an honest person a thief is very much offensive for one who is making advancement in spiritual life. Hrī means that one should be very modest and must not perform some act which is abominable. Acāpalam, ‘determination,’ means that one should not be agitated or frustrated in some attempt. There may be failure in some attempt, but one should not be sorry for that; he should make progress with patience and determination."

 

Garden Discussion on

Bhagavad-gītā Sixteenth Chapter

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

June 26, 1976, New Vrindaban

 

 

"That is, if you call a thief a thief, he will feel insulted. But does it mean that I shall say that “You are very honest?” A thief shall be called thief."

 

Morning Walk Conversation

with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

July 9, 1975, Chicago

 

 

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[bhaktajan]

 

Originally Posted by suchandra . . . a thief is very much offensive . . .

 

 

I admire your selflessness to admit the faults of the fault-finders of Iskcon.

Jai.

Your absolutely correct:

fault-finders of Iskcon find fault with others or correct them unnecessarily.

 

A) Of course, to call fault-finders of Iskcon a thief is not fault-finding,

 

B) to call an honest person a "Iskcon fault-finder" is very much offensive

for one who is making advancement in spiritual life.

 

Hrī means that one should be very modest and must not perform some act which is abominable like the fault-finders of Iskcon.

 

{Of Course those in law enforcement may walk directly into any place to arrest the disturbers of the peace.}

 

Acāpalam, ‘determination,’ means that one should not be agitated or frustrated in some attempt {to chastise fault-finders of Iskcon}.

 

There may be failure in some attempt, but one should not be sorry for that; he should make progress with patience and determination. --This is how we will win the war, and provide repose for all the returning tired U.S. Soldiers and Generals! Right! HooRah!

 

ys,

Bhaktajan

[Beggar]

 

--This is how we will win the war, and provide repose for all the returning tired U.S. Soldiers and Generals! Right! HooRah!

 

 

 

 

Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out!!!

 

 

 

 

It's the American Way!!!!

 

 

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

No other man can rule on who can/shall have sex.

 

I was thinking about this last night as I lay in bed.

 

If the acharya is truly on the plane of Raganuga (spontaneous) bhakti, and is performing every action in a mood of service to the Lord, who is to say that such an acharya is wrong to engage in intimacy with a disciple? Perhaps the Lord is enjoying via His pure servant? Who are we to say?

[Beggar]

 

I was thinking about this last night as I lay in bed.

 

If the acharya is truly on the plane of Raganuga (spontaneous) bhakti, and is performing every action in a mood of service to the Lord, who is to say that such an acharya is wrong to engage in intimacy with a disciple? Perhaps the Lord is enjoying via His pure servant? Who are we to say?

Why would some one come up with such an erroneous conclusion? The main reason is that they have no idea what is raganuga bhakti. Raga means transcendental attachment, as experienced by the ragatmika devotees in Vraja dham such as Nanda, Yasoda, Subal, Sridama, Lalita, Vishaka and so on. When upon hearing about the attachment these eternal associates or parishads have for Sri Krsna from the mouths of pure devotees, if one develops a spontaneous attraction or lobha, hankering or greed for such attachment then one is fit to be a follower (anugua) of the ragatmika devotees and is therefore qualified to become a raganuga. The devotees of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu coming in the line of Srila Rupa Goswami are a special kind of raganuga known as Rupanuga. Why would an acarya in the line of Sri Rupa Manjari act in the purusha bhava or mentality of a male enjoyer? BTW, spontaneity is a secondary characteristic of raganuga bhakti, not primary. It is not just a spontaneous desire to do service but rather to do service in the footsteps of the eternal service of Krsna in particular rasa.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

I said it was a dangerous question. Unlike you, I don't claim to have any answers for it.

 

I've shared some of my more outrageous and blasphemous musings with you in private. In the end, it makes no difference in my mind if those about whom I muse have engaged in the activities in which I crazily suspect they might have engaged. Pure is pure.

 

 

Why would some one come up with such an erroneous conclusion? The main reason is that they have no idea what is raganuga bhakti. Raga means transcendental attachment, as experienced by the ragatmika devotees in Vraja dham such as Nanda, Yasoda, Subal, Sridama, Lalita, Vishaka and so on. When upon hearing about the attachment these eternal associates or parishads have for Sri Krsna from the mouths of pure devotees, if one develops a spontaneous attraction or lobha, hankering or greed for such attachment then one is fit to be a follower (anugua) of the ragatmika devotees and is therefore qualified to become a raganuga. The devotees of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu coming in the line of Srila Rupa Goswami are a special kind of raganuga known as Rupanuga. Why would an acarya in the line of Sri Rupa Manjari act in the purusha bhava or mentality of a male enjoyer? BTW, spontaneity is a secondary characteristic of raganuga bhakti, not primary. It is not just a spontaneous desire to do service but rather to do service in the footsteps of the eternal service of Krsna in particular rasa.

[Beggar]

 

I said it was a dangerous question. Unlike you, I don't claim to have any answers for it.

 

I've shared some of my more outrageous and blasphemous musings with you in private. In the end, it makes no difference in my mind if those about whom I muse have engaged in the activities in which I crazily suspect they might have engaged. Pure is pure.

You don't have answers for it, but why don't you think that anybody does?

If nobody had answers for it then there would no reason to assume that guru tattva actually exists, but rather it would be a myth. Srila Sridhar Maharaj, tells the story of how one Sahajiya man passed on and the Sahajiya group members were together eulogizing him. The main person was giving a speech where he was lamenting that this recently deceased gentleman did not have the opportunity to experience the "parakiya rasa" before the end of his life. Suddenly one lady in the audience remarked, "oh but he actually has, and I can attest to that."

One of Prabhupada's disciples who was a big Sanskrit pundit working on Prabhupada's books left ISKCON near the end of Prabhupada's lila and joined Lalita Prasada. Eventually he left that line also but continued his scholarship and even did some work for Tripurari Maharaj. Now this person claims to be a real Sahajiya and his wife left him when she found out that he was having "parakiya rasa" with a female disciple (of his). So don't think that this doesn't go on. And the explanation that he gave was that Krsna was enjoying this lady through him. So this idea is pukka first class Sahajiyaism and is thoroughly rejected by the Gaudiya Matha, it's off-shoots and the traditional Gaudiya Parivars that it derives from. If you think that I'm lying to you then go ask someone whose opinion you respect or better yet ask your gurudeva.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

It's not such a big deal to me. I'll leave it at my speculation.

 

However, since anything is possible, I'd rather not judge anybody else based on my unconsciously absorbed Victorian morals.

 

If Sri Nityananda (or one of his shaktyavesa avataras) walks out of a bar with a woman on one arm and a bottle of wine in the other, surely he is engaged in preaching.

 

 

You don't have answers for it, but why don't you think that anybody does?

If nobody had answers for it then there would no reason to assume that guru tattva actually exists, but rather it would be a myth. Srila Sridhar Maharaj, tells the story of how one Sahajiya man passed on and the Sahajiya group members were together eulogizing him. The main person was giving a speech where he was lamenting that this recently deceased gentleman did not have the opportunity to experience the "parakiya rasa" before the end of his life. Suddenly one lady in the audience remarked, "oh but he actually has, and I can attest to that."

One of Prabhupada's disciples who was a big Sanskrit pundit working on Prabhupada's books left ISKCON near the end of Prabhupada's lila and joined Lalita Prasada. Eventually he left that line also but continued his scholarship and even did some work for Tripurari Maharaj. Now this person claims to be a real Sahajiya and his wife left him when she found out that he was having "parakiya rasa" with a female disciple (of his). So don't think that this doesn't go on. And the explanation that he gave was that Krsna was enjoying this lady through him. So this idea is pukka first class Sahajiyaism and is thoroughly rejected by the Gaudiya Matha, it's off-shoots and the traditional Gaudiya Parivars that it derives from. If you think that I'm lying to you then go ask someone whose opinion you respect or better yet ask your gurudeva.

[theist]

 

If the acharya is truly on the plane of Raganuga (spontaneous) bhakti, and is performing every action in a mood of service to the Lord, who is to say that such an acharya is wrong to engage in intimacy with a disciple? Perhaps the Lord is enjoying via His pure servant? Who are we to say?

 

Beggar is correct, this is the classic foundation of sahajism.

[Beggar]

One minute we are asserting mathala harijana kirtana range pujala raga patha gaurava bhange, then the next minute we are musing, "If the acharya is truly on the plane of Raganuga (spontaneous) bhakti, and is performing every action in a mood of service to the Lord, who is to say that such an acharya is wrong to engage in intimacy with a disciple? Perhaps the Lord is enjoying via His pure servant? Who are we to say?"

It's like not knowing if the person you are associating with is a member of the National Socialists or the Communist Party during the Weimar Republic. One minute he's a staunch defender of Christian Civilization and next minute he regards Christian Civilization as a myth of the Petty Bourgeiose meant to keep them abjectly exploited. Both parties and their ideologies took extreme views which were quite the opposite. There is something to be said for consistency.

[indulekhadasi]

Vaishnava aparadha: When is it ok to find fault with devotees?

 

Answer: Never

 

But first we have to determine proper Vaishnava behavior. And for that we need to be on a certain level ourselves.

 

I say worry about ourselves first before finding fault with others!

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Beggar is correct, this is the classic foundation of sahajism.

 

By my definition of sahajiya, it's sahajiya for me to assume that my attempts at sense gratification are justified because Sri Krishna is enjoying Himself through my senses.

 

To see Sri Krishna as enjoying our offerings to Sri Guru is called humility.

 

If Guru is as good as God (or better than God), then Guru is certainly not bound by any rules and regulations, regardless of their formal adherence to such rules and regulations.

 

I know that thought scares the pants off those with weak faith.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

There is something to be said for consistency.

 

My consistency is something like that of halavah.

 

But, seriously, how is it inconsistent to say that we should never judge others (regardless of how often I myself fall into that trap)?

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

By my definition of sahajiya, it's sahajiya for me to assume that my attempts at sense gratification are justified because Sri Krishna is enjoying Himself through my senses.

 

To see Sri Krishna as enjoying our offerings to Sri Guru is called humility.

 

If Guru is as good as God (or better than God), then Guru is certainly not bound by any rules and regulations, regardless of their formal adherence to such rules and regulations.

 

I know that thought scares the pants off those with weak faith.

 

The Lord can do as He pleases. That's just the way things are.

[Kulapavana]

I posted this on Dandavats:

 

While the humble sages, by virtue of true knowledge, see with equal vision a learned and gentle brahmana, a cow, an elephant, a dog and a dog-eater, such elevated vision is not recommended for the kshatriyas or administrators of day to day affairs of society. Somebody in society must pay close attention to mundane law and order, or the humble sages will be eaten alive by the ever present disciples of Kali.

Look at the story of brahmana’s lost children in Krsna Book for clues (Chapter 89). It is natural to demand protection from the ruling authority, and yes, such a person in position of authority must be held responsible for what happens on their watch. The brahmana in this story was blaming the kings of Dwaraka for his misfortune, and the kings did not offer him some philosophical words of consolation, but actually provided a practical solution to his problems.

Maybe the kings and brahmanas of today need to re-read this story and try to see also the practical lessons it contains.

---

 

It is not Vaishnava aparadha if you criticize a sannyasi for falling down with a woman, or a temple president for failing to protect devotees from exploitation or abuse. There needs to be some social pressure so that people will act properly. Just like with raising children. Discipline and pressure are part of the education process. The is no aparadha to the dirty pot if you call it "dirty". Aparadha is when you find fault with a clean pot out of envy.

[Beggar]

 

The Lord can do as He pleases. That's just the way things are.

Do you really think that a Rupanuga acarya who internally conceives themselves as a very small girl in Vraja serving the Divine Couple under Sri Rupa Manjari would be asked by the Lord to do what you have said? If someone has no idea of this Rupanuga conception then I could see them coming to such an idea. After all it could be conceived that we are asking the Lord of the Heart to direct us only to serve in this world, some sort of higher good. But even in this world the Rupanugas who are in the vaidhi stage are trying to serve Mahaprabhu and Sri Rupa through the line of gurus coming from them. Simultaneously they are keeping the internal Rupanuga conception above their heads. Such an example and precept was surely manifested in a pristine way by Srila Sridhar Maharaj and everyone who has any respect or fondness for him will try to avoid real deviations from such a line of thought. And trust me, at least on this, that what you said is in fact such a deviation and should be purified out of our mental systems at once. I have no doubt about this at all.

BTW

Also remember that Sri Nityananda Prabhu is Visnu tattva and is known as Avadhuta. He is guru but only up to madhurya rasa so He is not Rupanuga.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

"Rupanuga", "raganuga". Can you explain the difference?

 

So, are you saying the Lord cannot do as He wishes, or that there are certain things which He would never wish?

 

 

Do you really think that a Rupanuga acarya who internally conceives themselves as a very small girl in Vraja serving the Divine Couple under Sri Rupa Manjari would be asked by the Lord to do what you have said? If someone has no idea of this Rupanuga conception then I could see them coming to such an idea. After all it could be conceived that we are asking the Lord of the Heart to direct us only to serve in this world, some sort of higher good. But even in this world the Rupanugas who are in the vaidhi stage are trying to serve Mahaprabhu and Sri Rupa through the line of gurus coming from them. Simultaneously they are keeping the internal Rupanuga conception above their heads. Such an example and precept was surely manifested in a pristine way by Srila Sridhar Maharaj and everyone who has any respect or fondness for him will try to avoid real deviations from such a line of thought. And trust me, at least on this, that what you said is in fact such a deviation and should be purified out of our mental systems at once. I have no doubt about this at all.

BTW

Also remember that Sri Nityananda Prabhu is Visnu tattva and is known as Avadhuta. He is guru but only up to madhurya rasa so He is not Rupanuga.