Vaisnava Aparadha: When is it OK to find fault with devotees???

[enverajanovic]

Dear Suchandra prabhu

 

Please accept my humble obeisances.All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

 

Thank you for your encouragement and empathy that you are kindly extending.I and countless others really need it.That is why I am voicing my wievs in hope that someone will hear and avoid calamity that comes with serving the undeserving person.I am finding it hard to hold back and consent to nonsense I am seeing by being silent.Enough is enough.This guy (Prithu das) is a common criminal and it is time to start treating him as such.How else do you call someone who swindles someone's money,time and good faith, not once ,not twice but thousands of times to hundreds (if not thousands) of people?And all that in the name of Krishna.I sincerely think that public flogging is in place.I wouldn't mind doing it myself(and who knows,if I get a chance).Such punishment is much closer to the vedic model prescribed for such type of offence .Way closer than foolishly forgiving one man at the cost of thousands devotee's faith,money and valuable time.Not to speak of the fact that the very dedicated devotees will now either never return to resume their service but may spend their time actively preaching against Iskcon.Anybody that knows anything about business and marketing will know how damaging unhappy customer can be for ant business .As a proof that most people will never give up on Prabhupada, but only on thieves in the garb of Vaishnava,, we see that ISKCON is not getting sued as much as it could be ,if all the people wronged by these fakers get up on arms.

I think that reason behind it is that devotees know that they would be causing Krishna's laxmi to be misspent and that certainly can't be said for GBC that are willing to spend millions of Prabhupada's money to delay their impending doom.

 

Prithu is certainly nor regretting his past actions.There are reasons why I am convinced of that.Here are some:

 

1.First and foremost.Upon asking him several months ago if he would ever consider taking the same responsibility again,he confidently exclaimed:"Sure,if someone asks me for guidance and shelter I will surely offer it."How bizarre is that?

If he had an inkling of how painful that would be for all the people that he mislead for so long and how damaging for the movement ,I bet it would never cross his sick mind. Instead he confidently marches on toward the abyss ,encouraged by all his godbrothers equally inclined.In the process countless others will pay the price.

 

2.Ask any one of his ex subjects about how arrogant that man is.He still plays with people's emotions(just ask devotees in Berlin).Here is an excerpt form our very recent exchange that will best illustrate my point :

 

> Even just yesterday I received a letter from my

> Godbrother HariSauri Prabhu

> who was a close associate of srila Prabhupada and

> who would as such

> understand Srila Prabhupada's mind better than you

> and most of us.

> He writes:

> "Preaching is our life. And you are one of the best.

> There is no

> better way to attract the attention of Srila

> Prabhupada and Krsna. That was

> one of the confidential items that Srila Prabhupada

> taught us, that

> preaching is better than bhajan. Hope you had a

> wonderful Janmastami and

> Vyasapuja, as we did here in Mayapur.

> Your humble servant, Hari-sauri dasa

 

As you can see guy is in complete illusion and is being goaded by someone (HS) that obviously has no slightest clue what it entails to be a disciple of a faker and chase your tail for more than a decade.

He goes on:

 

> Lastly, whatever u give to krishna, is always given

> and is between you and

> krishna, even if it were mismanaged.

> You ask for scriptural support.

> Well krishna Himself Krishna says: "In this endevour

> there is not loss or

> dimunition.

 

Do you notice the patronizing tone here,do you notice how he is well used to infantilization of his cult members.So much so that he is spewing some real bull and hoping it sticks.Unfortunately for him every sane person will understand that Krishna meant here that there is no loss or diminution,provided you render service to Krishna and not to the fake, arrogant ,unrepentant thief.What is the benefit of serving God thru Sai Baba or Maharishi if they don't offer your service to Krishna?

Same goes for the fake masqueraders like Prithu that happens to use the service rendered by followers for his own sense gratification.

 

Now what follows is a real gem.Abuse will never stop unless I kick him in the face one day or sue ISCKON .He is not repentant,has no remorse and clearly shows his arrogance:

 

 

> So my service to ISKCON is going on, and I don't

> know if you can say this

> about yourself.

 

My answer :

 

"Your arrogance doesn't surprise me.But since you ask,

I have family to manage (something I just can't say

you are willing to do,also just had 4 people visit to

take prasadam,hear from SP books,we worship Gaur Nitay

and tulasi devi.The only thing that is missing is

manipulating "guru" telling me how I should follow

something he can't do himself.Sitting on high seat in

my house and telling me that complimenting ladies on

their figure or hairstyle is proper conduct.How

demanding that I stop cooking or else you will leave

because you are fasting and unable to control your

urge.I had 2 kids to feed that day.Lack of culture and

arrogance doesn't even make you a nice guest."

 

God bless ISCKON if such creeps are allowed to "preach" for much longer.

 

ys enver

[Beggar]

There is a symbiotic relationship between the cheaters and the cheated, one cannot exist without the other. Therefore from the existential viewpoint, one can only cheat themselves. After all isn't it ourselves who have cheated our own self out of an eternal life of bliss and knowledge?

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj,

 

We must be prepared for anything: anything from the environment may come to us, but we are to face it with optimism. That is the key to success in our life. The highest advice is given in Srimad Bhagavatam:

 

tat te ‘nukampam susumiksamano

bhunjana evatma-krtam vipakam

hrd-vag-vapurbhir vidhanam namas te

jiveta yo mukti-pade sa daya bhak

 

(Srimad Bhagavatam 10:14:8)

 

“One who, in the hope of achieving Your grace, tolerates all kinds of adverse conditions due to the karma of his past deeds, and passes his days practising devotion to You with his mind, words and body, is truly eligible for becoming your unalloyed devotee.”

We have no ability to interfere with the environment; to do so will only be a useless waste of energy. Rather, we must try to correct ourselves, so that we can adjust with the circumstances we find surrounding us. We have been advised that the best estimation we can make about the environment, of what is coming to me from the environment, is to see it, to understand it, as a grant.

...And we must be satisfied with whatever grant we get. It is not a matter of right; we are not to see with the eye of any right, whether we are getting our own ‘quota’ or not. “Am I getting my own portion, my own share?”- this should never be our attitude. At the same time, we must try to see that whatever trouble we find, is self-acquired: “Due to my own defective position, I am in such a condition. I am so low, so mean.” And our vanity will have to disappear forever, when we realise fully our dependence on His grace: “I have got no position; I am fully dependent on His grace. My whole existence, whole prospect, everything- it is only on account of His grace.

[suchandra]

 

Dear Suchandra prabhu

 

Please accept my humble obeisances.All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

 

Thank you for your encouragement and empathy that you are kindly extending.I and countless others really need it.That is why I am voicing my wievs in hope that someone will hear and avoid calamity that comes with serving the undeserving person.I am finding it hard to hold back and consent to nonsense I am seeing by being silent.Enough is enough.This guy (Prithu das) is a common criminal and it is time to start treating him as such.How else do you call someone who swindles someone's money,time and good faith, not once ,not twice but thousands of times to hundreds (if not thousands) of people?And all that in the name of Krishna.I sincerely think that public flogging is in place.I wouldn't mind doing it myself(and who knows,if I get a chance).Such punishment is much closer to the vedic model prescribed for such type of offence .Way closer than foolishly forgiving one man at the cost of thousands devotee's faith,money and valuable time.Not to speak of the fact that the very dedicated devotees will now either never return to resume their service but may spend their time actively preaching against Iskcon.Anybody that knows anything about business and marketing will know how damaging unhappy customer can be for ant business .As a proof that most people will never give up on Prabhupada, but only on thieves in the garb of Vaishnava,, we see that ISKCON is not getting sued as much as it could be ,if all the people wronged by these fakers get up on arms.

I think that reason behind it is that devotees know that they would be causing Krishna's laxmi to be misspent and that certainly can't be said for GBC that are willing to spend millions of Prabhupada's money to delay their impending doom.

 

Prithu is certainly nor regretting his past actions.There are reasons why I am convinced of that.Here are some:

 

1.First and foremost.Upon asking him several months ago if he would ever consider taking the same responsibility again,he confidently exclaimed:"Sure,if someone asks me for guidance and shelter I will surely offer it."How bizarre is that?

If he had an inkling of how painful that would be for all the people that he mislead for so long and how damaging for the movement ,I bet it would never cross his sick mind. Instead he confidently marches on toward the abyss ,encouraged by all his godbrothers equally inclined.In the process countless others will pay the price.

 

2.Ask any one of his ex subjects about how arrogant that man is.He still plays with people's emotions(just ask devotees in Berlin).Here is an excerpt form our very recent exchange that will best illustrate my point :

 

> Even just yesterday I received a letter from my

> Godbrother HariSauri Prabhu

> who was a close associate of srila Prabhupada and

> who would as such

> understand Srila Prabhupada's mind better than you

> and most of us.

> He writes:

> "Preaching is our life. And you are one of the best.

> There is no

> better way to attract the attention of Srila

> Prabhupada and Krsna. That was

> one of the confidential items that Srila Prabhupada

> taught us, that

> preaching is better than bhajan. Hope you had a

> wonderful Janmastami and

> Vyasapuja, as we did here in Mayapur.

> Your humble servant, Hari-sauri dasa

 

As you can see guy is in complete illusion and is being goaded by someone (HS) that obviously has no slightest clue what it entails to be a disciple of a faker and chase your tail for more than a decade.

He goes on:

 

> Lastly, whatever u give to krishna, is always given

> and is between you and

> krishna, even if it were mismanaged.

> You ask for scriptural support.

> Well krishna Himself Krishna says: "In this endevour

> there is not loss or

> dimunition.

 

Do you notice the patronizing tone here,do you notice how he is well used to infantilization of his cult members.So much so that he is spewing some real bull and hoping it sticks.Unfortunately for him every sane person will understand that Krishna meant here that there is no loss or diminution,provided you render service to Krishna and not to the fake, arrogant ,unrepentant thief.What is the benefit of serving God thru Sai Baba or Maharishi if they don't offer your service to Krishna?

Same goes for the fake masqueraders like Prithu that happens to use the service rendered by followers for his own sense gratification.

 

Now what follows is a real gem.Abuse will never stop unless I kick him in the face one day or sue ISCKON .He is not repentant,has no remorse and clearly shows his arrogance:

 

 

> So my service to ISKCON is going on, and I don't

> know if you can say this

> about yourself.

 

My answer :

 

"Your arrogance doesn't surprise me.But since you ask,

I have family to manage (something I just can't say

you are willing to do,also just had 4 people visit to

take prasadam,hear from SP books,we worship Gaur Nitay

and tulasi devi.The only thing that is missing is

manipulating "guru" telling me how I should follow

something he can't do himself.Sitting on high seat in

my house and telling me that complimenting ladies on

their figure or hairstyle is proper conduct.How

demanding that I stop cooking or else you will leave

because you are fasting and unable to control your

urge.I had 2 kids to feed that day.Lack of culture and

arrogance doesn't even make you a nice guest."

 

God bless ISCKON if such creeps are allowed to "preach" for much longer.

 

ys enver

Dear Prabhu,

for the benefit of others thanks for coming forward, seems there are lots of devotees now with similiar feelings. Although at this forum the honoured members might consider such topic more or less not as spiritual topic, but rather belonging to the "world review" forum - I think it is a spiritual topic. Till now quite lots of mobbed-out devotees went through stages of 1.) trauma, 2.) depression, 3.) desperation, 4.) hatred, 5.) irritation, 6.) frustration, 7.) stress and gradually after many years reaching the point of 8.) letting off. Anyone contacted by the GBC to get him/her back? The opposite is true, rumors were spread out to discredit ex-ISKCONites. Coming to 9.) forgiveness, no, this is not Prabhupada's conclusion. Manu-samhita has the details how cheating gurus will be punished. If you read through this list of punishments for cheating gurus you'll find that any cow killing slaughterhouse boss is by far 1000 of times better off than a cheating spiritual master. This is fact.

The more rank&file devotees donated the more strangely they were treated. In fact quite lots of devotees who donated house and land were immediately sent to India to perform "very special, confidential service". After 2-3 years we got the message that these devotees had passed away at the age of only 30-40.

Actually Prabhupada spoke about something similiar at a Bombay lecture 1974, "I thought my destiny is finished".

 

"When I was in Moscow, in the airport, my custom checking was being done. So they found out one Bhagavad-gītā. So immediately the custom officer called police. So I thought, “Now my destiny is finished, because… Because I know that these people send anyone to some unknown place. You cannot question.” In our country that is also coming very soon."

 

Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 3.26.6

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

Bombay, December 18, 1974

 

 

"In our country that is also coming very soon", since Prabhupada didnt consider himself as Indian but above bodily designation, an indication that this would happen within ISKCON?

[Kulapavana]

Dear enverajanovic,

 

I appreciate your candor, but let me ask you a question. Did you not suspect quite early Prithu was less then worthy of the lavish worship and devtion offered to gurus in Iskcon?

 

There is no aparadha in being cautious and sober when it comes to such matters. The Iskcon standard of guru worship and power associated with that position makes it hard to accept for most rational people. I am almost sure your heart was giving you some warnings about that. Next time listen to that voice. It is Sri Guru talking to you. the voice of the external manifestation of Sri Guru should confirm that inner voice.

 

Be happy, for you have learned a valuable lesson from this experience. Good luck to you!

[suchandra]

 

Dear enverajanovic,

 

I appreciate your candor, but let me ask you a question. Did you not suspect quite early Prithu was less then worthy of the lavish worship and devtion offered to gurus in Iskcon?

 

There is no aparadha in being cautious and sober when it comes to such matters. The Iskcon standard of guru worship and power associated with that position makes it hard to accept for most rational people. I am almost sure your heart was giving you some warnings about that. Next time listen to that voice. It is Sri Guru talking to you. the voice of the external manifestation of Sri Guru should confirm that inner voice.

 

Be happy, for you have learned a valuable lesson from this experience. Good luck to you!

Enver's situation could be that the GBC committe dispelled Enver's doubts by publically declaring that Prithu is an ISKCON guru in good standing?

 

 

Satsvarūpa: As for the details of where and how to do this, that should be worked out by the GBC.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

 

 

 

Room Conversation

with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

January 31, 1977, Bhubaneshwar

 

[Kulapavana]

 

Enver's situation could be that the GBC committe dispelled Enver's doubts by publically declaring that Prithu is an ISKCON guru in good standing.

 

Even the voice of GBC is no match for the voice of Sri Guru in your heart

 

Btw. I am not placing blame on him, God forbid. I'm merely pointing out the importance of doing things very cautiously, listening to our inner voice of guidance. People like Prithu can fool so many devotees for so long primarily because in the movement we are trained to supress reason, logic, and voice of our heart.

 

I do not believe you have to be perfectly pure in order to be a good guru, but being a liar, pretender, and a crook is definitely a disqualification.

[suchandra]

 

Even the voice of GBC is no match for the voice of Sri Guru in your heart

 

Btw. I am not placing blame on him, God forbid. I'm merely pointing out the importance of doing things very cautiously, listening to our inner voice of guidance. People like Prithu can fool so many devotees for so long primarily because in the movement we are trained to supress reason, logic, and voice of our heart.

 

I do not believe you have to be perfectly pure in order to be a good guru, but being a liar, pretender, and a crook is definitely a disqualification.

Let's say you regularly visit a temple, the first thing is that you develop a friendship with the devotees, sadhu sangha. You feel inspired by their association and they explain you what is spiritual life, philosophy, how to chant, how to offer, etc.. And here we are, many ex-ISKCONites told me later, well, you know, thing is, I didnt't want to get initiated by this ISKCON guru, but I didnt wanted to loose the association of these devotees, they meant me a lot, therefore I agreed to become a disciple of such and such, but actually in my heart I didnt wanted. This is how they all are "doing things very cautiously, listening to our inner voice of guidance". A phenomenon like the drowning of lemmings - they do it because they do it together, alone they wouldn't.

It should be clear however, that at one point this mechanism of young people getting caught in such a nightmare will be banned by cautious governments.

I often saw Prithu's disciples in Vienna distributing books, they worked so hard, but did Prithu even care to get a permission for distributing books? They did it anyway, but mainly because they wanted to be successful as a team of Vaishnavas, trying to establish a place of Vaikuntha in this dark age of kali. Mor or less it is only the group dynamics which keeps things going and not the guru. He just takes the result of their work.

[Kulapavana]

 

It should be clear however, that at one point this mechanism of young people getting caught in such a nightmare will be banned by cautious governments.

 

The mechanism of "total surrender to guru" as preached by Prabhupada was adopted by Iskcon from day one and later developed into a full blown personality cult with it's peak during "zonal acharya" days. Since purity of the guru is often difficult to verify for us today, this mechanism itself carries a very serious risk.

 

In previous times a disciple was able to spend a lot of time with his guru, up close an personal. Gurus came from well known and respected families, and have been observed by everybody for a long time before they took up accepting disciples. Even the process of "surrender" was different, as disciples almost never gave up their social standing, family, occupation, etc. Thus the risks today are far greater than in previous times. Small wonder that so many good Iskcon devotees took shelter of elderly GM Vaishnavas with a long track of devotional service and true renunciation. For the most part it was a very smart thing to do.

[suchandra]

 

Since purity of the guru is often difficult to verify for us today, this mechanism itself carries a very serious risk.

 

Could be that this problem is again solved by others not by the hesitating Vaishnava leaders - nowadays the non-Vaishnavas are very relentless to find out others' weakness - your Achilles tendon so to speak, and hit hard, very hard. Remember the Kazachsthan tragedy and the scenario that this could be everywhere. You say a guru doesn't have to be so pure in order to be good guru. Judge for yourself, do you think with this risky understanding we get safely through the next 10,000 years? Why not make a clean sweep of what is genuine Vaishnavism and let people actually know what they get when surrendering to a Vaishnava institution? A walk on thin ice?

[Kulapavana]

 

Why not make a clean sweep of what is genuine Vaishnavism and let people actually know what they get when surrendering to a Vaishnava institution? A walk on thin ice?

 

People often get cheated by the religious leaders and institutions - Iskcon is no exception. I think the trick is in training new devotees to be very smart, careful, and knowledgeable. Otherwise it is definitely walking on thin ice.

 

Blind sentiment for Prabhupada as the perfect guru is no substitute for such training. Nor is making him the one and only Iskcon guru for the next 10,000 years. That will not eliminate the crooks and cheaters who hide in the temples pretending to serve Prabhupada's mission.

[suchandra]

 

People often get cheated by the religious leaders and institutions - Iskcon is no exception. I think the trick is in training new devotees to be very smart, careful, and knowledgeable. Otherwise it is definitely walking on thin ice.

 

Blind sentiment for Prabhupada as the perfect guru is no substitute for such training. Nor is making him the one and only Iskcon guru for the next 10,000 years. That will not eliminate the crooks and cheaters who hide in the temples pretending to serve Prabhupada's mission.

For your understanding I prayed and prayed and actually was one of the last non-initiating godbrothers of your ex-guru/still guru/whatever/ in his zone who sticked to him and believed in him. My godbrothers even visiting me in the temple and asking if I'm still sane and that I should come immediately with them and leave for good. Somehow he didnt't appreciate my loyality and made plans to push me offside by different tactics.

So, I don't point stereotyped to Prabhupada, but somehow it seems that Krishna Himself is pointing to Prabhupada, it is Him who likes Prabhupada. We can only follow His example.

If you compare Vaishnavism, Lord Caitanya's movement as yet another religion among "all those other religions", then right, everywhere is corruption. But does it mean we should do the same coz in such good company? Vaishnavism is very fragile and could disappear as quick as it came. There are surely lots of Vaishnavas who protest when you say, look, so many Catholic priests were lately getting sentenced because of them committing sexual assault in their vicarage, what's wrong if this also happens within the Vaishnava institutions? "The trick is in training new devotees to be very smart, careful, and knowledgeable."

Question, what happens to a bhakta when after three years he isn't initiated? Right, he's a fringee and kindly has to behave as such.

 

Jayatīrtha: In the last six years in the Catholic church, 25,000 priests have left and taken up…

Prabhupāda: 25,000?

Jayatīrtha: 25,000 in six years.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Jayatīrtha: Have left the Catholic church, priests.

Prabhupāda: Left.

Jayatīrtha: Ordained priests, they have left and gone off to marry or whatever. Especially they are concerned that they can’t marry. Catholic priests are not allowed to marry.

Prabhupāda: Marrying? They are marrying man to man ,what to speak of marrying. Sodomy.

Jayatīrtha: So that’s the alternative. Either they’re leaving or they’re marrying man to man.

Prabhupāda: Homosex. They are supporting homosex. So degraded, and still they say, “What we have done?” They do not know what is degradation, and they are priest. They are teaching others. They do not know what is the meaning of degradation.

Svarūpa Dāmodara: So if the leader is degraded, how can the followers…

Prabhupāda: Similarly, scientists, they do not know what is imperfection, and they are scientists.

Devotee (2): The thing about the blind leading the blind.

Prabhupāda: This is going on.

 

 

 

Morning Walk Conversation

with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

Los Angeles, September 28, 1972

[Kulapavana]

 

For your understanding I prayed and prayed and actually was one of the last non-initiating godbrothers of your ex-guru/still guru/whatever/ in his zone who sticked to him and believed in him. My godbrothers even visiting me in the temple and asking if I'm still sane and that I should come immediately with them and leave for good. Somehow he didnt't appreciate my loyality and made plans to push me offside by different tactics.

So, I don't point stereotyped to Prabhupada, but somehow it seems that Krishna Himself is pointing to Prabhupada, it is Him who likes Prabhupada. We can only follow His example.

If you compare Vaishnavism, Lord Caitanya's movement as yet another religion among "all those other religions", then right, everywhere is corruption.

 

I appreciate your story. I'm not surprised this is how it happened, as you seem to be a very nice and loyal devotee.

 

Yes, Vaishnavism as practiced in Iskcon before (when Prabhupada was still here) and now, is yet another religious path available to people in our times. That is not a condemnation, but a fact. Corruption existed in Iskcon even during Prabhupada's days, and was both serious and widespread. His presence kept it somewhat at bay, but it was not a magic solution. So both before and now we are not that different from other religions when it comes to corruption.

[enverajanovic]

 

Dear enverajanovic,

 

I appreciate your candor, but let me ask you a question. Did you not suspect quite early Prithu was less then worthy of the lavish worship and devtion offered to gurus in Iskcon?

 

There is no aparadha in being cautious and sober when it comes to such matters. The Iskcon standard of guru worship and power associated with that position makes it hard to accept for most rational people. I am almost sure your heart was giving you some warnings about that. Next time listen to that voice. It is Sri Guru talking to you. the voice of the external manifestation of Sri Guru should confirm that inner voice.

 

Be happy, for you have learned a valuable lesson from this experience. Good luck to you!

 

Dear Kulapavana prabhu ,Hare Krishna

 

Sure I did feel something.I agree that for the most part it was my fault and choice to get involved with that man.Sure I had that gnawing feeling in me that was telling me to get the hell out of this nightmare.My conditioning,the way I was raised,the fact that I am sentimental Balkan boy,lack of intelligence,fact that I grew up in dysfunctional family,that I liked the crowd around Prithu,that I had confidence in his words (it takes time to see that they were just that),that I was 18yo and hardly spoke English,that I was running away from suffering in this world and landed into a trap,the fact that I didn't take time to read Prabhupada's books,even the fact that I was not the best material for braminical training ,the fact that all the people that I was surrounded by didn't give me a chance to express doubts about Prithu (it is a highest form of heresy within ISKCON to question action of ones Gurudev as you know,resulting in whatnot....)So, cumulative effect of all this is why I let myslef be fulled for so long and underlying reason being my bad karma.

 

Let me ask you now:"shall someone like him not only go unpunished,but continue to disseminate his ignorance forever on the account of the fact that he was SP disciple at one point?I say "was" for the reason that I understand discipleship to be to related to a discipline one follows,where is discipline in habitual masturbation and whose discipline is it, Hugh Hefner's perhaps,not Prabhupada's for sure.

Also why is it that besides paedophiles (that go unreported to the police and we know what happens as a result) we don't report the people that steal millions and blackmail the entire movement for so many years?Is that not a crime?Are we beyond the law in that department as well?How is it that one pretentious guy in saffron stealing millions goes unpunished while the other goes to jail for stealing pack of crisps from supermarket?Is there a difference except for the colour of their clothes?If there is some special clause that absolves guru's from theft?I doubt it. than what affords them to arrogantly continue repeating the same offences and get our worship as a reward?My mind is brewing with questions like that.If it is ok to steal in ISKCON, will I be allowed to walk in and steal Satsvarupa's G.'s monthly allowance and get away with it,or say for instance steal the salary of our many salaried brahmanas i and be forgiven?If not ,why not?Why not be merciful to me I have family to feed and guru's are just single men with a lot more appetite and lot less need for stealing than me.Even one of the greatest thieves of all time,Alexander the Great had more sense to absolve the petty thief of his due punishment when he was asked how is it that he can get away with such a huge crime such as stealing the whole kingdoms. Surely if our illuminated spiritual teachers get the mercy I should too,since that is what their logic implies.You do something bad and you get mercy.Otherwise let us report them to the local police and have them dealt with as Prabhupada suggested they deal with the repeat offender that happened to be his disciple at the time.

 

Just imagine for the moment Prithu das and Satsvarupa dasa G. in the prison, same cell,on the same bunk bed for 10-20 years,planing and developing ISCKON prison preaching programs if they are so eager to preach,or just hanging out dealing dope.Upon release they come back to the temple and clean toilets together for the rest of their days as an atonement for all the crimes they committed.

 

In the meanwhile temples are packed with their former(I hate that term,it insults my meagre intelligence) disciples all encouraged by the fact that the atmosphere is clean of sin and corruption and they can practice in peace.Thousands of original SP books distributed daily(not hundreds of thousands of dollars misspent daily) gurukulas full to the brink (paedophiles all in the institution,or prison, castrated,happily chanting and meditating on whatever they wish, just not our children please).Every offender swiftly punished and devotees living in harmony and peace without fear with Prabhupada, rightful owner of all ISKCON property in the centre.Only people fearing are the ones with the ulterior motives.Only people shunned upon are ones that transgress the rules of their ashrama (like divorce,illicit sex,vomit eating etc.)BTW I was always wandering what is there to learn from somebody that chooses eat his own vomit,I suppose how to eat more of it.

 

I know it is a long shot but well worth going for.And all it would take is to get a group of devotees to sue for embezzlement ,stealing,mental torture,abuse of all sorts, and press on.Few devotees in every country on every continent.When it all ends 95 % of the gurus would be in prison and 95% of their former disciples would stay and serve within the movement instead in exile like now.95 % of Prabhupada's disciples would return from exile.If you think about it,say for every guru in prison 50 disciples stays on average and serves and say about 10 goes into exile to wait to assist their bellowed gurus in toilet cleaning upon their return.That would make our movement 50 times stronger off the bat,book distribution would go thru the roof,and people would wait in line to join bramachari ashram.Ladies would be happy,men strong and children protected.

World would be full of young preachers and entire planet would reverberate with sounds of maha mantra.There would be no meat eating,devotees would be presidents,prime ministers etc.And all that for putting 100-200 or so proven loose criminals,sexual perverts behind bars right now.Thereby establishing precedent for all megalomaniacs and company men to fear.

 

I know that my "grand plan" has a lot of serious flaws but it definitely beats that the plan that GBC has for continuation of of Prabhupada's legacy.

My mini rant is over for today.

 

your aspiring servant in the better world

 

Enver Ajanovic and nobody's former disciple again

[Kulapavana]

 

Let me ask you now:"shall someone like him not only go unpunished,but continue to disseminate his ignorance forever on the account of the fact that he was SP disciple at one point?

 

The punishment is there for all sinners, in one way or another. Krsna does not easily forgive for abusing His devotees. People like Prithu will eventually succumb to their lies and their inner rot, for everyone to see. And this is just a beginning of their punishment.

 

Devotees like you or me are not in position to administer any punishment. We can only tell our stories with full honesty to other aspiring devotees, so that they be warned not to make the same mistakes we did.

 

Unfortunately Iskcon is not an organization where rank and file members have much influence over how things are done. Thus many crooked deeds go unpunished there, or the punishment is merely symbolic.

[suchandra]

 

I appreciate your story.

Yes, you know everything - who can tell you anything? You're an influential thinker within the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. HG Ravindra svarupa prabhu fully agrees with you, "checking the tendency to exploit others", is of import.

 

Ravindra-svarupa Dasa Warns Against Abuse of Power

By ISKCON News Staff on 26 Jan 2008

<!--paging_filter-->Dallas, Texas – Ravindra-svarupa Dasa, a GBC, guru, and influential thinker within the International Society for Krishna Consciousness (ISKCON), implored the Society’s North American leadership to vigilantly guard against abuse of power. In his January 24 keynote address to the North American Temple Presidents and Governing Body Commissioners meeting, Ravindra-svarupa called abuse of power “the core problem” facing ISKCON leaders today, and opined that the solution lay in responsible use of power and strong spiritual practices.

“To exercise power over others is not itself bad, it is natural,” Ravindra-svarupa said, “the Srimad Bhagavatam tells us that those who are in positions of power are naturally representatives of Krishna. The problem comes when those who are supposed to represent Krishna, don’t.”

Ravindra-svarupa’s 30-minute speech, which kicked-off the 3-day gathering of North American ISKCON leaders, focused on the need for integrity, accountability, and checking the tendency to exploit others. Employing a mix of historical analysis, scriptural insight, and humor, he emphasized the connection between a devotee’s ability to effectively lead and his or her “practice of cultivating the Holy Name.”

Rather than addressing specific instances of ISKCON devotees who abused their power, Ravindra-svarupa reminded his audience of the great responsibility shared by all followers of ISKCON Founder-Acarya Srila Prabhupada.

“Srila Prabhupada gave us the essence of ISKCON,” he told his fellow leaders, “in the statement: ‘Krishna consciousness means to become a Vaisnava and to have some feeling for suffering humanity.’ We must simply become Krishna conscious and give it to others.”

[bhaktajan]

 

Posted by Enver Ajanovic: "and nobody's former disciple again"

 

1) Dear Enver Ajanovic Prabhuji,

 

I have experienced all the same problems you have. My advice is to get a life. Get a life fast. No! Faster.

 

I don't give a farthing for your mis-fortune in Iskcon.

Please stay a safe distance from me.

 

My suffering does not call for some else's further hardship.

It is demoniac to call for the distruction of fallen fools. [unless you are practicing for future service in your next life].

 

2) I find the NAVA JAUVANA DASA' s story to be the 'Forest Gump of Iskcon' so incredible--yet his is a 'little story'. So after so many hardships NAVA JAUVANA DASA has achieved only bitter and mediocre samadhi: And we should use him as a ray of wisdom?

 

Take my advise: Be a man & get a life & be assured that there is more suffering in the world experienced by hordes of less-fortunates than we can fit into our own biographies.

 

Bhaktajan

[Kulapavana]

 

Yes, you know everything - who can tell you anything? You're an influential thinker within the International Society for Krishna Consciousness.

 

I definitely do not know everything and I learn new things every day. As to being an influential thinker within Iskcon, that is a good joke

 

As to Ravindra's article - it sounds very hollow to me. As a long time GBC and guru he had plenty of opportunities to curb the widespread abuse of power in Iskcon. Somehow I'm not impressed with his practical record. On paper he sounds good, but where is the application? That is Iskcon's biggest problem: too much high sounding talk, and very little practical effect. Just like the "simple living" idea.

 

Sometimes I think they do it on purpose: to create an illusion of changes taking place within Iskcon's top management. That deflects some criticism and fools the loyal naive devotees on the ground who desperately want to believe that things are getting better. But in fact this is all "business as usual".

 

Communists used the same tactics after Stalin's demise. It was called "letting the masses vent their anger and frustration in a harmles way" - after the gripe session it is "back to work" time.

[Kulapavana]

 

Take my advise: Be a man & get a life ...

 

 

Coming from someone who uses a Pokemon avatar on a Vaishnava forum that seems like a good advice not just for Enver

[enverajanovic]

 

1) Dear Enver Ajanovic Prabhuji,

 

Don't platitudinize and act like a jerk at the same time.

 

>I have experienced all the same problems you have. My advice is to get a life. Get a life fast. No! Faster.

 

I shall get a life and you please get a wife.Why did you mention that you had the same problem if it is irrelevant to you?Think before you speak.

 

I don't give a farthing for your mis-fortune in Iskcon.

Please stay a safe distance from me.

 

Why do you adress me than?

Distance will be your choice to make.

 

My suffering does not call for some else's further hardship.

It is demoniac to call for the distruction of fallen fools. [unless you are practicing for future service in your next life].

 

Let us see when your big ego gets to chew on this message.Will your suffering agravate you enough to want to show some courage and try and cause me some suffering for a good reason.lol

Krishna Himself called for the suffering of fallen souls.Wher do you get your intel from?GBC

 

I was wandering how is it than that you verbaly aubse all that disagree with you(I looked into your treads).Is it because your Judo moves are a bit rusty so you have to use your big mouth instead.I will fly you over to Ireland so that you can prove your point if you have some real game in you.

 

2) I find the NAVA JAUVANA DASA' s story to be the 'Forest Gump of Iskcon' so incredible--yet his is a 'little story'. So after so many hardships NAVA JAUVANA DASA has achieved only bitter and mediocre samadhi: And we should use him as a ray of wisdom?

 

Your agro-samadhi seems way more apealing I agree.Too bad you can't back it up with some real manhood.Pokemon avatar gives you away dude.

Do you wear skirt when your mama is not at home?

 

Take my advise: Be a man & get a life & be assured that there is more suffering in the world experienced by hordes of less-fortunates than we can fit into our own biographies.

 

Your advice I will take it you defeat me in Judo match, O man of power.Put your manhood where your gaping hole in your head is.Othervise mean well before you speak.Or learn some respect and culture.

 

 

What is it going to be?