Changing Me, Changing You.... Where did we go wrong?

suchandra · January 11, 2008

Interesting points by Giri-nayaka prabhu, disciple of the GBC chairman HH Bhaktivaibhava Swami, "in 1973 Prabhupada said, in 25 years there will be 1% of the world's population devotees":

Changing Me, Changing You.... Where did we

go wrong?

BY: GIRI-NAYAKA DAS (BVS)

Jan 10, SLOVENIA (SUN) —

Sita-pati Prabhu, you very nicely

addressed the view

presented in my article.

Thank you for mentioning the well-known fact, that one cannot change others without changing oneself. Changing others clearly includes change of oneself. I'd say everybody is perfectly aware of this by now. There is no other way to even hope for change in others, though agreed, some try to use other methods, even to evoke exploitable sentiments in their followers. But in long term reality, inspiration to change oneself, and follow, depends on contacting that one who is changed, or who is working on changing himself.

One thing is, that you seem to consider that only after we change to 100% purity, then we can attempt to change others. As an alternative, I see it as a step-by-step process. Change me a bit, change you that bit, and so on. You tell me my fault, I change, I tell you your fault, you change..... Thus we help each other. It is not "the evil" fault-finding. I benefit, you benefit, all is fine. But not everybody is willing to do this, that's true. Many don't like it, and they label it as "evil". So we have our discrimination and we can seek our association and our sources of inspiration.

Accusing anybody of being an ill-intended fault-finder is just too unreal. We are talking of devotees here, remember? Devotees are not envious, sick, harmful, backstabbing demons. Anyone labeled as fault-finder could as easily be seen as a well-wishing friend. But as you said, "

atmavan manyate jagat

". Seeing others as dangerous competition or enemies, calling them "you are on ego and envious", waving around with fault-finding, accusing everybody as aparadhi...., it all says much about the one acting like this. One practising this, even on strangers, is hardly good devotee association.

What is even more interesting is your statement that "Srila Prabhupada and other bonafide Gaudiya Acaryas have lead through self-transformation, rather than through manipulation."

I agree 100% with this statement of yours (although I'm a bit allergic to new-age-ish slang like self-transformation, as used in BTG and ICJ, but whatever....). Either one is able to inspire others to change themselves, or he is not able. It is a matter of inspiration, and no manipulation can be effective in providing serious and lasting determination. Wherever one can observe lack of "self-transformation", one can understand that something is going wrong.

Regarding "self-transformation" as a means to cause external change, you mention Srila Prabhupada emphasizing chanting 16 rounds daily. Observing our surroundings, we may agree that 16 rounds is a well followed standard. Devotees, especially the leaders, are supposedly following this for many years now, so immense changes should be visible today.

Srila Prabhupada wrote to Bhakta Prabhu (Bhkativedanta Manor) in 1973:

"If we go on preaching vigorously as we have been for another 25 year then all these other so called religions will disappear."

and

"...there is nothing in the world that can compare with our Movement of Chanting and dancing. So Chant dance and when you get tired take Prasadam, this is our actual solid preaching work all over the world..."

Now after those 25 years, due in 1998, I don't see all those other religions disappearing. Quite the opposite. It seems that just one branch (now attempting to become an official Hindu sect) is doing fine in this disappearing.

Of course, some will say that ISKCON was never stronger than it is now. But others will say that ISKCON was never weaker. And I clearly have more than enough of personal experience confirming the latter. So, tell me, what is going on? Where did we go wrong?

If we recall Srila Prabhupada's instructions on chanting we can see that the point is not in 16 rounds of "whatever", but in quality 16 rounds, without offences, and well supported by the four regulative principles and rising early in the morning. Please take this into consideration, as this may well explain our collective failure to meet Srila Prabhupada's expectations for ISKCON 2000+.

Please recall, that the ISKCON GBC for the last 30 years, since 1977, had completely free hands to fulfill anything they desired. They had power, people, support....they cannot say that Krsna didn't provide. Whatever they wanted, they could do it. For example, I remember in the 90's, devotees decided to buy an airplane as a birthday present to their Guru, by one month of book distribution. In the end they settled for high-tech satellite mega-equipped super-special maha-big-buck custom-made RV. But a plane was not out of reach -- it's just that the Guru was too humble to accept the plane. The point is, that there was no scarcity of anything. If all that power would be well managed, results would follow. Of course, nowadays the picture is a bit different. Gurus/sannyasis sometimes have a hard time collecting for their 10 or 20 (some up to 100) flights a year, their so-called minimum to successfully perform their most valued service to Srila Prabhupada and ISKCON.

ISKCON is still mismanaged, it is just that Krsna is now giving much less laksmi for us to play around with. Any wonder?

I listened to the seminar from Ravindra Svarupa Prabhu, explaining his pop-psychology views on fault-finding and criticizing. It is interesting, how Ravindra Svarupa's views are exactly the same as Mahatma Prabhu's, or Sita-pati prabhu's. It is clear, that those views are accepted in the ISKCON institution as standard. We all know examples with fingers pointing forth and back, and similar. Numerous examples telling us to be quiet. And always followed by warning of eternal damnation through Vaisnava aparadha.

The GBC's worked on cover-up methods for 30 years. They implanted certain ideas in our brain, and we allowed them to do so. Now they keep serving us other nonsense, such as "The Secret" pop-psycho win-all method presented by the GBC at the New Vrindaban 2007 meeting, and clearly we should find no fault in such nonsense. Last 30 years were in light of their ideas, and any questioning their decisions and actions was labeled as fault-finding Vaisnavas, and even as Ramacandra Puri fault-finding Caitanya Mahaprabhu. They implemented ideas of anti-fault-finding, and they used all that was necessary to make sure that everybody must submit to their ideas -- their way or the highway. They did it perfectly as they wanted to do it. Nobody stood in their way, all opposition was removed. But observe the results. 30 years after Srila Prabhupada's vision of all other religions being gone, the only religion gone is GBC religion. Well, judging by results, they must have done something wrong!

Imagine, hypothetically, what should a movement like 1978 ISKCON do to fail in becoming the only world religion by 2000, and instead become the weakest world religion, kicked away even by confused Hindus? What was it, so terrible, that caused such a turn in the steady development of Srila Prabhupada's movement? What was it that caused Krsna to NOT fulfill Srila Prabhupada's vision and expectations, and why was it that Krsna to caused such shame and disgrace to ISKCON leaders as they are getting now?

Call me a fault-finder, but after 25years+, ISKCON is exactly the opposite of what was envisioned by Srila Prabhupada in 1973. Srila Prabhupada envisioned a strong movement, changing the world, but all that is left is isolated hard work of a few individuals, scattered all around. All glories to those few working hard, really. But, this just doesn't fit Srila Prabhupada's picture for ISKCON 2000.

Now, you can say that it is my fault, that I'm not changing myself enough, and just trying to change others.... But be real, the problem seems to be a much more serious one. Actually, it may be that no matter how strong are the opinions of devotees here on Sampradaya Sun, they may still be far, far from actual problematics of post-1978 ISKCON. I suspect something went REALLY wrong somewhere, and at the moment we are just scratching the surface. As I see it, cases of Satsvarupa's and Balabhadra's and Harikesa's are nothing compared to the situation that we are all eventually about to face.

Remember, we blew ISKCON entirely! Almost destroyed it! Struggling to keep together even this, that is left. It was supposed to be the only world religion from 2000+ on. And what are we doing? We are hoping to be allowed in religious circles as Hindus! Begging religions to accept us as bonafide! And we cannot even pull this properly!!! Begging anybody to even glance at us. If somebody who is a bit known in the karmi world is given a book for free, it is all over our news! And if celebrities like Madonna or some footballer once come to enjoy their senses in our Govinda's, we are all fired up "yea, hariboool, finally we are bonafide..."! It is a joke, complete joke, and a shame.

I don't know what will have to happen to make things straight, but it will have to be something seriously revolutionary. I mean, it will have to be a blast! I suspect, we are not even close to understanding the change that will have to follow in order to establish the glory of Srila Prabhupada's movement.

Srila Prabhupada said in 1972 that, "If only 1% become devotees, that will change the world." And in 1973, it looked good, and he said "25 years". "1% devotees" was said in 1972, so we can conclude that Srila Prabhupada thought about devotees of such commitment as were regular in 1972. As I can read, typical 1972 devotee was quite different from typical 2008 devotees. So, take it that the world needs 1% of 1972 type devotees. There are 6 billion people on the planet. That would require 60 million fully committed devotees!!!! How many devotees are there now in ISKCON? 10,000? 20,000? And how many are there of 1972 type devotees? A few hundred????

There should have been 60 millions of fixed-up 100% committed 1972 type devotees today, as Srila Prabhupada predicted it for 2000+. Not only this was not achieved, but the numbers from 30 years before were not maintained, but were reduced to almost negligible.

WHAT WENT WRONG????

So....changing me, and you....that is what we will have to do.

your servant,

Giri-nayaka das

Kulapavana · January 11, 2008

I simply do not believe AT ALL that if we continued to do things exactly like they were done when Prabhupada was still with us by the year 2000 all religions would have disappeared.

Problem #1.

The assumption that any one religion can displace all other religions in 25 years can only be seen as a "pep-talk", and not a serious proposition.

Problem #2.

Iskcon DID continue to do things very much like they were done previously (1977), such as using deception, exploitation, lies, and wholesale abuse of power by the upper management while claiming to be the topmost expression of wisdom and spirituality.

Anybody who is disappointed we are not yet ruling the world should have his or her head examined by a licensed physician.

tackleberry · January 11, 2008

Anybody who is disappointed we are not yet ruling the world should have his or her head examined by a licensed physician.

But as a Kshatriya, what do you think? Is it right to have such views, such as conquering the world and eliminating false religion? Prabhupada definitely wanted that. In one of his talks, he went so far as to say we have to have gita in one hand and a gun in the other, or something to that effect. The failure is due to the lack of qualified brahmanas and kshatriyas, not because the idea itself is impractical.

Beggar · January 11, 2008

But as a Kshatriya, what do you think? Is it right to have such views, such as conquering the world and eliminating false religion? Prabhupada definitely wanted that. In one of his talks, he went so far as to say we have to have gita in one hand and a gun in the other, or something to that effect. The failure is due to the lack of qualified brahmanas and kshatriyas, not because the idea itself is impractical.

Srila Sridhar Maharaj said that Srila Prabhupada was a shakyavesa avatara of Sri Nityananda Prabhu and sometimes he would take on that mood of Nityananda/Baladeva. It is a similar mood to Vrndavana das Thakur in Caitanya Bhagavat where he says something like, "please accept the mercy of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and if you don't then I will kick on your head!"

Kulapavana · January 11, 2008

But as a Kshatriya, what do you think? Is it right to have such views, such as conquering the world and eliminating false religion? Prabhupada definitely wanted that. In one of his talks, he went so far as to say we have to have gita in one hand and a gun in the other, or something to that effect. The failure is due to the lack of qualified brahmanas and kshatriyas, not because the idea itself is impractical.

First you need to ask a few questions:

1. Which is a false religion?

2. Replacing these other religions with what?

3. Is any kind of force in that area (imposing your beliefs on others) justified by the shastras?

IMO the idea of forcing your religion on others is completely bogus, non-Vedic, and impractical to boot. Only Abrahamic religions hold such views. These ideas caused untold misery in the world, and if Prabhupada was to hold such views (and I believe he did not) he would not be representing our sampradaya and I would not want to help him in that regard.

Aryans (adherents to the Vedic culture) do not force their religion on others - period! As soon as you do, you are no longer an Aryan.

I looked with complete dismay at things that went on in our movement over the years. People like Kirtanananda, Hansadutta, Bhavananda ruling the world? Heaven forbid! That would disgrace Vaishnavism forever. We can't manage our own affairs with any degree of success, and you think we are qualified to rule the world?

Just like Lord Krsna does not force us to take up true religion, the Vaishnavas should not attempt to force others either. It is a repulsive idea and it does not work.

suchandra · January 11, 2008

First you need to ask a few questions:

1. Which is a false religion?

2. Replacing these other religions with what?

3. Is any kind of force in that area (imposing your beliefs on others) justified by the shastras?

IMO the idea of forcing your religion on others is completely bogus, non-Vedic, and impractical to boot. Only Abrahamic religions hold such views. These ideas caused untold misery in the world, and if Prabhupada was to hold such views (and I believe he did not) he would not be representing our sampradaya and I would not want to help him in that regard.

Aryans (adherents to the Vedic culture) do not force their religion on others - period! As soon as you do, you are no longer an Aryan.

I looked with complete dismay at things that went on in our movement over the years. People like Kirtanananda, Hansadutta, Bhavananda ruling the world? Heaven forbid! That would disgrace Vaishnavism forever. We can't manage our own affairs with any degree of success, and you think we are qualified to rule the world?

Just like Lord Krsna does not force us to take up true religion, the Vaishnavas should not attempt to force others either. It is a repulsive idea and it does not work.

Good points, seems we're something like programmed/deadlocked to think in certain pattern how Lord Caitanya's movement should spread.

However, things can develop quite differently, the Holy Name and Spiritual Knowledge can surely spread in all kind of way we presently can't even think of.