Krishna consciousness vs. Afrocentrism

[vedic]

Hare Krishna, and excuse me if someone posted this in another section of this website.

When discussing Krishna consciousness with some blacks or African Americans, many of an Afrocentrist bent posit that since humans originated in Africa, at least according to contemporary anthropologists, mankind should study ancient African religions instead of the Vedic philosophy. Other than affirming that Bhagavad Gita means Song of God, what is a good response to this argument without resorting to a long dissertation on the length of the four yugas and/or the notion of civilization spreading from India outward?

Thank you.

Haribol

[Samia]

The best response is Hare Krishna and God Bless.

Leave them with a book and your most honest best wishes and move on to someone who may be more interested in discussing as opposed to claiming the ultimate faith. As with alot of hardliners anything you do or say will be countered and some may even see your attempts at discussion as an attack.

Just my opinion of course.

[mahak]

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Their points are legitimate. If one is in tune with scientific techtonics and geology, then there is valid evidence that all land masses move away from Africa. There is also evidence of a super-continent, a truely one world situation where all the land was one, surrounded by ocean. There is also puranic evidence pointing to the same fact, with bharatavarsa being the entire world, surrounded by the oceans to the north, south, east and west (Ramayana).

 

The story of King Prthu is that the supreme lord delegated shaktivesa avatar status to prthu in order for him to personally shape the world as we now know it, meaning that he worked from a previous configuration.

 

Afrocentrism is a defense against eurocentrism. I will always consider the counterpoint to these relative truths. In preaching to the folks largely influenced by Elijah Muhammed, just give them their say. Yes, we are all Africans. Just tell them that kingdoms existed prior to the Mdoggonnes, prior to Mali, prior to Egyptians (who were really johnny come latelys, beginning long after the onset of Kali Yuga, merely inheriting the pyramids and only re-decorating that which another civilization created.

 

This world is great, its history and science is vast. The alternative is to argue Indocentrism, which is just as much a latter day phenomenon as well. Better to get to the gist of our common humanity, or our common creator, of our common genetic evolution. I found great commonality with the followers of Marcus Moziah Garvey, the hero of both Malcolm X and the jamaican rastafarian community. When one establishes human brother (and sister) hood, then we get down to Hallowing the Names of OUR FATHER.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa.

 

If one studies the culture of the Mdoggonnes, one will discover a very vedic culture, BTW.

[theist]

What is the value of arguing where the first man originated. If we are of the opinion that humans civilizations come and go in various cycles on this planet then it is a meaningless arguement where humans started. It is un traceable.

 

From a better angle it is still seen as meaningless but based on the higher knowledge of the Vedas compared to what ever knowledge has come out of Africa.

 

But don't waste time debating the superiority of Vedic civilization vs. African ones. Instead show them the distinction between the self-realized state and the state of false identification with the body and land of birth.

[mahak]

where was the first man during the first Manu. The earth may have been a ball of molten copper then, or even worse. What about before manu, what about before the birth of this Lord Brahma, on another day of Ksirodakasayi Visnu.

 

Where are we going, not where have we been. Not unlike the origins debate, who cares how we got here, Prabhupada covers it all by the words "somehow or other", meaning "who cares, it is of little importance."

 

The following statement is true, even tho it may seem contradictory. We are all Africans, and there are no Africans. Theist says it all, there is no superiority based on bodily designation, in fact, if one does this, such a person has fully surrendered to the INFERIOR energy. Superior energy is when one knows they are not african, indian, jew, druid, but rather a being superior to bodily designation, yet needing to submit to the superior spiritual designation indicated by aham brahmasmi, I am spirit soul, unfazed by material consideration of race, gender, social caste, national identity, roots and wings.

[Kulapavana]

 

When discussing Krishna consciousness with some blacks or African Americans, many of an Afrocentrist bent posit that since humans originated in Africa, at least according to contemporary anthropologists, mankind should study ancient African religions instead of the Vedic philosophy.

 

Even if we accept this as true, going back into early developmental stages of humanity is rarely the best thing to do. Should we go back to the hunting-gathering lifestyle? Should we go back to tilling the fields with a pointed stick? These are silly propositions.

 

If you believe in evolution, then you should concentrate on the most developed form of religion - Vaishnavism.

[mjan]

 

If you believe in evolution, then you should concentrate on the most developed form of religion - Vaishnavism.

Isnt Vaishnavism talking about devolution?

[Kulapavana]

 

Isnt Vaishnavism talking about devolution?

 

both evolution and devolution take place in this world. clearly we see signs of both all around us. it is a matter of specifics and perspective.

[mjan]

@Kulapavana: This could be a nice topic to discuss, im interested to know more. What is the real question here?

darwins theory of evolution VS. human devolution, vedic alternative to darwins theory-

yes, but this is not what this topic is about;)

 

--------------

 

 

When discussing Krishna consciousness with some blacks or African Americans, many of an Afrocentrist bent posit that since humans originated in Africa, at least according to contemporary anthropologists, mankind should study ancient African religions instead of the Vedic philosophy.

do you have any particular african religions in mind?

[Beggar]

 

do you have any particular african religions in mind?

 

 

 

Madonna & Child

 

 

[suchandra]

 

 

Madonna & Child

 

 

"Around 5,000 years ago, a rich and powerful nation called the kingdom of Kush, also referred to as ancient Nubia, was a center of culture and military might in Africa. Ancient Nubia had a wealth of natural resources such as gold, ivory, copper, frankincense and ebony but they also produced and traded a variety of goods such as pottery. The Nubians formed the foundation of the Proto-Dravidians, Proto-Elamites, Proto-Mande speakers and West Atlantic people."

source Who Are The Nubians

NUBIA MUSEUM - ASWAN

 

[theist]

 

 

Madonna & Child

 

 

 

 

In Japan they have painted the Madonna and Child as Japenese. Everyone appreciates from their own angle.

[mahak]

very nice depiction of madonna and child, quite profound as well as accurate. I was kinda hit on my funny bone when the writer asked if we should go back to tilling the earth with pointed sticks. This is the common perception of ancient times, by those who think we are advancing. However, why is it that the puranic histories, dating thousands of years ago, depict this very planet as a globe, when the euros thought they would fall off the flat earth just 600 years ago. Anthropologists have affirmed that there have beeen great scientific and technological advancement in some of these ancient cultures, some things have been built then that cannot even be made into our present computed generated models. The ancient kingdom of Mali was cruising around in naval vessels, wearing gold chains, their women greatly honored, when the european was still walking around like apes, having spent centuries in caves due to the effects of the great Thera explosions that Plato attributes for the destruction of the northern hemisphere.

 

Because there is destruction of all evidence of these past cultures, we are reduced to wondering. But, according to our own philosophy, we can understand that all these human beings also have the full presence of Lord Nityananda Prabhu in their hearts, that Krsna always reveals himself to those who are sincerely trying to please the Supreme Person.

 

There is great prejudice, a natural human frailty, to think that our culture is the best, that no one has made such advancement. To close oneself to the wonders of historical record is not wisdom. Such attitude is called fundamentalism, and is the bane of the world. We are not the best there has ever been, we are just what we are, both great mixed with absurdity. Just as they were. They had great advances, but could not stop Pompeii, Thera, Gilgamesh. Nor can we stop demolishment by solar ejecta (predicted very soon, BTW, by credible astro-physicists, not a conspiracy theory that Vikrama would surely accuse me of if he were still here and didnt get so worked up as to harass folks on PM function), annihilation of culture is the only real fact of life on this planet of death.

 

So we dont really know the devotional advancement of the Mdoggonne, the builders of the oldest cities of the world, Timbuktoo, Bhagdad, or other such glorious cultural centers. Everything, ioncluding the records of their very existance, is all comet dust. But so is our culture as well. What happened after Kuruksetra or the fratracidal war that annihilated the Yadu Dynasty. My own studies indicate that everyone who survived did so in caves for 1,000 or so years, crawled out and gravitated to where they found pyramids already in ruins. I dont have a veda base for this, so leave it alone, but Srila Prabhupada once indicated that the jews were descendents of the survivors of the Yadu Dynasty, maybe someone else can verify this very informal discussion.

 

Anyway, I have no need to study the religions of the ancients, my guru maharaja has given me the yuga dharma. But he has also given us histories of other glorious world cultures when the world was quite different, where humans lived for 100,000 years where everyone lived like gods. This age was called satya yuga. Then came treta yuga, and 10,000 years age was normal. Then dwarapa yuga, when humans lived to be 1,000 years old. Now we are in Kali Yuga, and we are unfortunate and short lived, 100 years max, and the world is stupid, unintelligent, living in squalor, and everyone here thinks they have the most advanced, liberal, and enlightened way of life ever.

 

But the study of history is awesome, there are great thinkers out there (like velikovski, hancock, and our own Mr. Cremo) that spark our inquisitive natures. If I can appreciate the Seattle Mariners and their prowess on the baseball diamond, what harm can come to me if I appreciate the beauty of the ancient Nubians and Abyssinians and the great reggae music that those who care like. I have freedom to like maui and pele while listening to gabby pahanui, too.

 

hare krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[theist]

 

I dont have a veda base for this, so leave it alone, but Srila Prabhupada once indicated that the jews were descendents of the survivors of the Yadu Dynasty, maybe someone else can verify this very informal discussion.

 

 

This statement that the Jews were descendants of the Yadu dynasty used to be commonly accepted in Iskcon by I also have no ready refference for it.

 

It could be that something else was said and by the time it trickled down to me it had changed meanings so until I can hear it or read it in some archive conversations or something I can't say for sure either.

[Kulapavana]

 

This statement that the Jews were descendants of the Yadu dynasty used to be commonly accepted in Iskcon by I also have no ready refference for it.

 

It could be that something else was said and by the time it trickled down to me it had changed meanings so until I can hear it or read it in some archive conversations or something I can't say for sure either.

 

Actually Prabhupada rejected any such notions:

 

Letter to: Nayanabhirama

--

London

22 August, 1971

71-08-22

Philadelphia

 

My Dear Nayana Bhirama,

 

Please accept my blessings. I beg to acknowledge receipt of your letter dated 16th August, 1971 and have noted the contents carefully. Also I have received your check for $25.00 and I thank you very much for the same. Yes, if it is approved by the GBC then I have no objection if you and your wife go to Israel to help out there. Philadelphia temple has improved nicely under your supervision. So for the time being continue to develop it nicely. Nothing should be done hastily or haphazardly. Then when the temple is very firmly situated I have no objection for your going. So do the needful and ask Krishna to help you.

 

Because there is some similarity of the word Jew and Yadu so some historian or scholar, so called, created this notion. I have read it also in some paper. But even it is true, we have nothing to do with it. Lord Krishna killed his own dynasty under His personal supervision. So certainly Krishna didn't like the idea that future dynasties would be able to identify having Krishna's blood. Krishna has no material blood; neither He is different from His body. The example is given that Malayan sandalwood is famous as grown in Malaya but the fact is that sandalwood can grow anywhere. Nowadays in Malaya there are only rubber trees but still in the market the sandalwood is known as Malayan sandalwood. Similarly a family may become famous for Krishna taking birth in that family but Krishna is independent and can appear anywhere and everywhere, where His devotees are.

 

Hoping this will meet you in good health.

Your ever well-wisher,

A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

[Kulapavana]

 

I was kinda hit on my funny bone when the writer asked if we should go back to tilling the earth with pointed sticks. This is the common perception of ancient times, by those who think we are advancing. However, why is it that the puranic histories, dating thousands of years ago, depict this very planet as a globe, when the euros thought they would fall off the flat earth just 600 years ago.

 

My point was that when you talk to a guy who makes an argument we all came from African hominids and that is why we should study african religions, they are not ready to accept the Puranic view of history. but since they can appreciate the value of evolution, you can speak about the evolution of religion.

 

As to tilling the earth with a pointed stick - some primitive people still do that today and it used to be far more common in the past.

[theist]

 

Actually Prabhupada rejected any such notions:

 

Thanks Kulapavana that letter clarfiies it. But it should be noted that Prabhupada did not reject the notion as you say, nor did he confirm it. He rejected the importance of it saying, "But even it is true, we have nothing to do with it."

 

Such as it is with rumours. Makes me wonder how many other ones I have picked up in the same way. Never trust rumours seems to be the lesson here.

[Kulapavana]

 

But it should be noted that Prabhupada did not reject the notion as you say, nor did he confirm it. He rejected the importance of it saying, "But even it is true, we have nothing to do with it."

 

"Lord Krishna killed his own dynasty under His personal supervision. So certainly Krishna didn't like the idea that future dynasties would be able to identify having Krishna's blood."

 

How is that anything other then obvious rejection of the idea that there is any connection between Krsna's family and the Jewish race?

 

Historicaly speaking and in mundane scholarship sense, Krsna's family was a part of the Yadu dynasty (a branch of this family). Other Yadu branches were identified as well, but they have no connection with Krsna.

[theist]

 

"Lord Krishna killed his own dynasty under His personal supervision. So certainly Krishna didn't like the idea that future dynasties would be able to identify having Krishna's blood."

 

How is that anything other then obvious rejection of the idea that there is any connection between Krsna's family and the Jewish race?

 

Historicaly speaking and in mundane scholarship sense, Krsna's family was a part of the Yadu dynasty (a branch of this family). Other Yadu branches were identified as well, but they have no connection with Krsna.

 

Gawd, why does every little thing have to become a debate?

 

Here is the whole sentence.

 

""But even it is true, we have nothing to do with it." Lord Krishna killed his own dynasty under His personal supervision. So certainly Krishna didn't like the idea that future dynasties would be able to identify having Krishna's blood. Krishna has no material blood; neither He is different from His body."

The first five words in the first sentence explain the stance he took on the subject. The last three sentences explain why the idea has no credence to the Vaisnava rather true or not. Because Krsna is a transcendental person He has no blood line nor is He a part of one.

 

It is a stance transcendental to accepting or rejecting the notion. He is clearly saying that it doesn't deserve the time for consideration due to Krsna being a transcendental person.

 

That is his stance on the question. The impression that he doesn't accept the idea may be there also but it is not his stance. Therefore his disciples should not teach it as a reality but for reasons higher then simple rejection of the notion.

 

I am well aware of your anti-jewish bias Kulapavana from your past posts o World Review so I doubt you will accept what I say and I have no intention on having a prolonged exchange on this so have the last word and that will end it.

[Kulapavana]

 

I am well aware of your anti-jewish bias Kulapavana from your past posts o World Review so I doubt you will accept what I say and I have no intention on having a prolonged exchange on this so have the last word and that will end it.

 

My bias is mostly directed towards distortions of the facts and truth in general, as in the above posted exchange. You may chose to read anything you like from my posts, just like you may chose to read anything you like from Prabhupada's letter above.

 

Btw. Altough Lord Krsna is a transcendental person, He had offspring while here on Earth thus the issue of blood line is perfectly legitimate. Because Krsna did not want ANYBODY to make claims of connection to that blood line, He destroyed all of His kin. Those who claim otherwise are either misinformed, or are lying. This is how I read shastra on this subject, and this is what Prabhupada is saying.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

I have Jewish blood in my body from my mother's side, and *I'm* horrified by some the stances taken by Zionists. The bombing of the King David Hotel seems to have been a clear act of terrorism which was commemorated 12 years ago or so by the state of Israel.

 

They claimed it was a "mistake", though the ship was clearly marked, but Israeli fighters killed U.S. servicemen on the U.S.S. Liberty.

 

Go ahead. Call me a "Jew-hating Jew", theist.

 

 

My bias is mostly directed towards distortions of the facts and truth in general, as in the above posted exchange. You may chose to read anything you like from my posts, just like you may chose to read anything you like from Prabhupada's letter above.

 

Btw. Altough Lord Krsna is a transcendental person, He had offspring while here on Earth thus the issue of blood line is perfectly legitimate. Because Krsna did not want ANYBODY to make claims of connection to that blood line, He destroyed all of His kin. Those who claim otherwise are either misinformed, or are lying. This is how I read shastra on this subject, and this is what Prabhupada is saying.

[suchandra]

 

Hare Krishna, and excuse me if someone posted this in another section of this website.

When discussing Krishna consciousness with some blacks or African Americans, many of an Afrocentrist bent posit that since humans originated in Africa, at least according to contemporary anthropologists, mankind should study ancient African religions instead of the Vedic philosophy. Other than affirming that Bhagavad Gita means Song of God, what is a good response to this argument without resorting to a long dissertation on the length of the four yugas and/or the notion of civilization spreading from India outward?

Thank you.

Haribol

People are often puzzled about the realy old traditions of so many African tribes (Africa’s population was estimated at 868 million inhabitants in 2004). Like the Red Indians they're considered as close to nature and experienced in naturopathic treatment. However, when we examine how Africans treat the cow it becomes evident that their culture cannot be very advanced.

Many African tribes live as depending upon their cowherds, but do you find any vedic understanding of cow protection in their ancient tradition (Fossilized remains of the earliest ancestors to the human species, discovered in Ethiopia, have been assigned dates as long ago as 5.9 million years)? So far we see the typical symptoms of a godless civilization, huge parts like Egypt, whole North Africa turned into a desert and scarcity of rain in many other parts of Africa.

 

Maasai tending cows

 

"That’s a fact. So if you do not care for your father, then the result will be nature will reduce supply. Reduce supply. Nature will not allow to the demons to flourish. No. That is not allowed. Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān kṣipāmy ajasram andha-yoniṣu. The demons are always liable to be punished. Some big, big demons like Rāvaṇa, Hiraṇyakaśipu, the Lord personally comes to punish them. Otherwise, the ordinary demons, they are punished by the laws of nature. Krishna does not require to come to punish these petty demons. But when there is big, big demons like Rāvaṇa, like Hiraṇyakaśipu, like Kaṁsa, then Krishna, or Lord Rāmacandra, They come to punish them."

 

Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 3.25.11

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

Bombay, November 11, 1974

741111SB.BOM

[HerServant]

 

Their points are legitimate. If one is in tune with scientific techtonics and geology, then there is valid evidence that all land masses move away from Africa. There is also evidence of a super-continent, a truely one world situation where all the land was one, surrounded by ocean. There is also puranic evidence pointing to the same fact, with bharatavarsa being the entire world, surrounded by the oceans to the north, south, east and west (Ramayana).

....

 

If one studies the culture of the Mdoggonnes, one will discover a very vedic culture, BTW.

 

I agree with bro Mahak maharaja. In fact it has been scientifically proven that various people in India, Mongolia, Alaska, contain DNA strands traced from the oldest known "human" skeletons found in Africa.

 

One of the oldest languages in the world is Yoruba, and the word for God in Yoruban is OLU. It can be shown that the semites took their world ELI from OLU.

 

In fact OLU, ELI, ALI, ARI, URI, ORI, SOLE, HELI are all dialect expression of (H)ARI / (H)ARE

 

The oldest (from scientific perspective) is the Yoruban OLU.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Interesting stuff, Suchandra. I'd really like to read "Forbidden Archeology" some day.

 

In the meanwhile, I discuss things with meat-eaters. They bring up archeological evidence of meat-eating going way back. I point out that many vegetarian cultures cremate their dead and/or dismember the bodies and leave them for carrion-eaters--they don't bury them, hence, there isn't much of a fossil record to represent those cultures.

 

Also, archeologists seem to prefer working in deserts, where excavation isn't as difficult as in the jungle (not saying they avoid the jungle altogether). Also, it's a lot easier to be a vegetarian in a tropical climate than in the extreme climates of the far North.

 

It seems clear that, in Africa (and perhaps many other places on Earth) humans have contributed to a process of desertification by living in a disharmonious and unsustainable manner.

 

 

People are often puzzled about the realy old traditions of so many African tribes (Africa’s population was estimated at 868 million inhabitants in 2004). Like the Red Indians they're considered as close to nature and experienced in naturopathic treatment. However, when we examine how Africans treat the cow it becomes evident that their culture cannot be very advanced.

Many African tribes live as depending upon their cowherds, but do you find any vedic understanding of cow protection in their ancient tradition (Fossilized remains of the earliest ancestors to the human species, discovered in Ethiopia, have been assigned dates as long ago as 5.9 million years)? So far we see the typical symptoms of a godless civilization, huge parts like Egypt, whole North Africa turned into a desert and scarcity of rain in many other parts of Africa.

 

Maasai tending cows

 

"That’s a fact. So if you do not care for your father, then the result will be nature will reduce supply. Reduce supply. Nature will not allow to the demons to flourish. No. That is not allowed. Tān ahaṁ dviṣataḥ krūrān kṣipāmy ajasram andha-yoniṣu. The demons are always liable to be punished. Some big, big demons like Rāvaṇa, Hiraṇyakaśipu, the Lord personally comes to punish them. Otherwise, the ordinary demons, they are punished by the laws of nature. Krishna does not require to come to punish these petty demons. But when there is big, big demons like Rāvaṇa, like Hiraṇyakaśipu, like Kaṁsa, then Krishna, or Lord Rāmacandra, They come to punish them."

 

Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 3.25.11

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

Bombay, November 11, 1974

741111SB.BOM