What is wrong with the sahajiya viewpoint?

[Murali_Mohan_das]

This is getting tedious ("If you can't beat 'em with brains...")

 

I don't apologize for expressing that Sri Guru is above all social standards (even if he demonstrates a perfect example of following rules and regulations), but I apologize to you for having expressed that idea in such a distasteful manner.

[theist]

"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink."

 

It stands to reason that if Guru can have sex with his disciples "for Krsna" and Krsna is thus pleased by such an act then Guru can also eat meat for Krsna and Krsna will be pleased with that also.

 

There is no limit to the various hells this line of thinking will lead one into.

 

The obvious flaw in this line of thought is that if a guru is still desiring to enjoy sex and meat he is not a guru in the first place. This is grade one subject matter but just see what happens if it gets tossed out along the way to hearing about rasa-lila.

 

The sage like advice not to try to jump into the Tenth Canto subject matter prematurely has never been more evident then right in this thread.

[Beggar]

 

This is getting tedious ("If you can't beat 'em with brains...")

 

I don't apologize for expressing that Sri Guru is above all social standards (even if he demonstrates a perfect example of following rules and regulations), but I apologize to you for having expressed that idea in such a distasteful manner.

I accept your apology on the taste/distaste aspect. But still you will have to give more explanation about how "Sri Guru is above all social standards." Actually the term, "Sri Guru" imples akhanda guru tattva or the universal aspect of guru tattva. So we might be more accurate if we say that guru (an individual guru) is above all social standards. But, what social standards are you talking about? Generally "social standards" for Vaisnavas means varnasrama dharma (the daiva type). If that is true then we could logically assume that you mean a real guru is above all the rules and regulations of daiva varnasrama dharma. Unmarried sex is prohibited amongst all four varnas and asramas. So then the next logical assumption is that since a bonafide guru is beyond all of these DVD constraints he/she can engage in illicit sex. Now we know that no camps that we know of actually believe this (yes even the prakrta sahajiyas), so where are we? The only possibility is from Quote 1,

 

 

If the acharya is truly on the plane of Raganuga (spontaneous) bhakti, and is performing every action in a mood of service to the Lord, who is to say that such an acharya is wrong to engage in intimacy with a disciple? Perhaps the Lord is enjoying via His pure servant? Who are we to say?

Now we have again arrive at the most classic conception and actual basis of the prakrta sahajiya philosophy.

So now we remain wondering how a bonafide guru is beyond the social restrictions of varnasrama dharma? We know that the sannyasa asram is the fourth asrama and that the sannyasi is the guru of the other three asramas. Babaji is not an asrama and it was considered by Srila Saraswati Thakur the position for paramahamsas. He gave sannyasa so that such young (in the 1920s-30s) sannyasi preachers would not overestimate their position and keep the position of the paramahamsas high above their heads. matala hari jana kirtana range/pujala raga patha gaurava bhange.

Also in the very era that Srila Saraswati Thakur established triadandi sannyasa for his Gaudiya Math, there were abuses of the position of babaji taking place. So called babajis were smoking ganja and having sex with their female disciples and because of this the very name of Gaudiya Vaisnavism was scoffed at by the Western educated class in Bengal. And this was the very class targeted by both Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakur and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur in their preaching mission of Sankirtana. They had the vision that if the British educated Indians would take to the Sankirtan Movement of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, that it could be then spread to the English speaking world.

As a disciple of Srila Govinda Maharaj in the line of Srila Sridhar Maharaj, you have heard or read these things at least dozens of times. Then you try to say that,

 

 

If Srila Prabhupada had, hypothetically-speaking, had an intimate relationship with one of his lady disciples, I would not think of him as any less than what he is--a pure, cent-per-cent dedicated devotee of the Lord.

 

and give the justification that you were only, "expressing that Sri Guru is above all social standards"? Or that,

 

 

The Supreme Lord can enjoy with whomever He pleases at whatever moment He chooses.

Or that,

 

 

...I'm saying it's wrong for us to *judge* the acharya, whatever our imperfect senses suggest to us he/she may be doing.

The first two books of Srila Sridhar Maharaj provided to the Western world in the early eighties were, "Search for Sri Krsna, Reality the Beautiful" and then "Sri Guru and His Grace. One time Srila Govinda Maharaj remarked that although Sripad Goswami Maharaj had done such a great service by providing these books and the others in the series from The Guardian of Devotion Press, that the second book should have been on the subject of how to be a disciple rather than how to be a guru. I think this illustrates how much of what Srila Sridhar Maharaj was giving to Srila Prabhupada's disciples (who were struggling to maintain ISKCON in Prabhupada's physical absence) in the early and mid-eighties was from the viewpoint of the teacher rather than the student. Of course, Srila Sridhar Maharaj would also admonish, "we are all students", which was a statement of caution.

Personally I do not think that the senior persons in the Western section of SCSM understand that much of what they are giving is really the second installment and that it is going right over the heads of those who do not have a basic education in Krsna Conscious philosophy. It is very easy to misapply the concepts of the second installment without having the proper foundation. Perhaps this is what has happened here.

[Beggar]

 

The sage like advice not to try to jump into the Tenth Canto subject matter prematurely has never been more evident then right in this thread.

 

Yes, definitely and I expounded upon this in my last post. But this is not exactly from focusing too much on the rasa lila and other parikiya pastimes per se but rather confusing the very concepts of parakiya, raganuga and the Supremely independent position of the Lord. Other concepts which are cloudy here are what it means to be as good as God, or what did Cakravarti Thakur mean when he wrote saksad-hari, that Sri Guru is directly Hari? And such persons have the gall to believe that practically all Gaudiya-Saraswats outside their Math are imitationists and sahajiyas?

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Personally I do not think that the senior persons in the Western section of SCSM understand that much of what they are giving is really the second installment and that it is going right over the heads of those who do not have a basic education in Krsna Conscious philosophy. It is very easy to misapply the concepts of the second installment without having the proper foundation. Perhaps this is what has happened here.

 

Since you know better than they do, why not start the Beggar Sampradaya?

 

The whole point of the statement regarding Sri Nityananda (which was inexplicably deleted in its most recent incarnation on this thread) is that external appearances are simply external appearances. What appears to be sense-enjoyment to us might, in reality, be preaching. It's not for us to say.

[theist]

 

Yes, definitely and I expounded upon this in my last post. But this is not exactly from focusing too much on the rasa lila and other parikiya pastimes per se but rather confusing the very concepts of parakiya, raganuga and the Supremely independent position of the Lord. Other concepts which are cloudy here are what it means to be as good as God, or what did Cakravarti Thakur mean when he wrote saksad-hari, that Sri Guru is directly Hari? And such persons have the gall to believe that practically all Gaudiya-Saraswats outside their Math are imitationists and sahajiyas?

 

Prematurely meaning without that preliminary understanding of the relationships you describe.

 

Also I see a problem with our tendancy to mistake intellectual advancement of concepts with that of actual spiritual advancement via realization. We get way out ahead of ourselves this way and when our actual desires can't keep pace with those concepts we end up making compromises between the two. This is a major mistake because spiritual life is not open to compromising with our material desires. We take spiritual realization on it's terms alone or we don't take it at all.

[Beggar]

 

The whole point of the statement regarding Sri Nityananda (which was inexplicably deleted in its most recent incarnation on this thread) is that external appearances are simply external appearances. What appears to be sense-enjoyment to us might, in reality, be preaching. It's not for us to say.

But you are applying most of the concepts in a improper and incorrect manner!

You can't pretend and rationalize that you did not write,

 

Quote 1,

 

If Srila Prabhupada had, hypothetically-speaking, had an intimate relationship with one of his lady disciples, I would not think of him as any less than what he is--a pure, cent-per-cent dedicated devotee of the Lord.

Or

Quote 2,

 

If the acharya is truly on the plane of Raganuga (spontaneous) bhakti, and is performing every action in a mood of service to the Lord, who is to say that such an acharya is wrong to engage in intimacy with a disciple? Perhaps the Lord is enjoying via His pure servant? Who are we to say?

 

The saying that one should not judge Lord Nityananda even if they see him coming out of a wine shop with a lady is not relevant to what you "theoretically" said about Srila Prabhupada in Quote 1 as I have showed previously.

 

You have also stated that you may be influenced by your birth father's sahajiya leanings.

 

It is one thing to think these things, another to say it, still, another to write it. And it is even another thing make a campaign of first defending your position and then when cornered trying to rationalize your statements with further misapplications of siddhantic concepts. Now it is time to come clean and I humbly implore you to apologize to the members and guests of Audarya - Spiritual Discussions, especially Srila Prabhupada's disciples and followers. Then go before the dieties and your guru's Vyasasana and ask for forgiveness. Then go before Srila Prabhupada's picture in the temple room and ask him for forgiveness. In the end this all that I can tell you.

[Beggar]

Srila Sridhar Maharaj

 

Srila Jiva Goswami says, after receiving the spiritual sound from Gurudeva, and concentrating on the Holy Name, then, there is a stage of transcendental waiting. How the effects of the spiritual sound will come down to us? We shall go on counting the beads with such expectant attitude. We shall never feel ourselves down in this mundane world, but rather expecting some new transcendental experience at every moment. Then the colour will completely come, the rupa – the form will come – from rupa will come guna, the quality. These will come down from above, from the plane of Paramatma. The ordinary plane of experience, the mental plane, the plane of reason, the plane of soul, the plane of Supersoul – in this way the planes from gross to subtle are there. So, it will come down: it will have to come with my expectant attention.

For example, a particular kind of bird always expects rain – the Cataka. They do not take any water from the ground – neither river nor lake – nothing of the kind. Only rainwater will they take. Similarly, our attitude should be like that. Always in expectation for some transcendental experience, we shall go on searching. First, the sound, from the sound comes form, from the form comes quality; from that relativity, the paraphernalia will come. Then the pastimes will come and we shall find ourselves as a unit in that plane. It is not this mundane self, but my soul has got a serving position in there – in that plane. In this way, we are to be reinstated in our original spiritual position. So, the mind cannot be allowed to engage in its own speculative line in this case.

The line of service is always given in this way: do your service direction from the higher agents and you will be benefited. It is said that raw materials in the hand of an expert can produce miracles. Otherwise, raw materials are useless. So, you have got raw materials – spiritually unrefined – and you want spiritual growth. The higher and proper utilization of those assets is necessary and that guidance can come from the transcendental arena. As much as higher direction will come, we shall be prepared to surrender at their disposal. We shall be more benefited in this super-scientific line. Whatever is done under the direction of the devotees that has got transcendental value – that will be progressive within me. I am leading myself by following the order of a Vaisnava.

 

 

 

http://www.bvml.org/SBRSM/saranagati.html

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Now it is time to come clean and I humbly implore you to apologize to the members and guests of Audarya - Spiritual Discussions, especially Srila Prabhupada's disciples and followers. Then go before the dieties and your guru's Vyasasana and ask for forgiveness. Then go before Srila Prabhupada's picture in the temple room and ask him for forgiveness. In the end this all that I can tell you.

 

I was there Sunday night begging forgiveness from Sri Sri Guru-Gauranga Gandharvika Giridhari-jiu.

 

Regardless of whether you feel the leadership of Sri Chaitanya Saraswata Math and its affiliated centers are preaching at a level appropriate for the attendees of their programs, it is a fact that those leaders are inspiring many souls disaffected with material life to engage in practical service and sadhana bhakti.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

I was there Sunday night begging forgiveness from Sri Sri Guru-Gauranga Gandharvika Giridhari-jiu.

I noticed that you (and your kids) were *not* up at the Ashram (unless you were cutting vegetables in the kitchen the whole time and I missed you).

 

Surely, you had something better to do. Some pressing service, perhaps?

 

Do you still cook for Their Lordships once a week? Truly, that is admirable.

[Beggar]

 

...it is a fact that those leaders are inspiring many souls disaffected with material life to engage in practical service and sadhana bhakti.

Yes I agree. If one is a very simple person the style of program that is in place at the Seva Asrama if effective. It is also effective if one with an intellectual, inquiring mind is a self-starter and reads the basic Gaudiya Vaisnava literatures on their own. From what I have observed new persons who have inquiring minds and just depend on the program there will not get enough of the "first installment" so that they have a chance at digesting the "second installment". This is my observation from what I've seen over the last 16 years. There were two men who are your godbrothers at the asrama when Srila Govinda Maharaj was there who live at the ISKCON farm in Mississsippi. I noticed that the one I know is now much more educated in the basic philosophy than he was before. Clearly this comes from attending the classes there and reading Srila Prabhupada's books.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

There were two men who are your godbrothers at the asrama when Srila Govinda Maharaj was there who live at the ISKCON farm in Mississsippi. I noticed that the one I know is now much more educated in the basic philosophy than he was before. Clearly this comes from attending the classes there and reading Srila Prabhupada's books.

 

It's from their own endeavors, is it? It has nothing to do with Sri Guru and his Grace?

 

Sorry to be challenging, when you are being concilliatory. Surely, I am a wicked, evil-hearted demon.

[Beggar]

 

It's from their own endeavors, is it? It has nothing to do with Sri Guru and his Grace?

 

Still there must be some endeavor on the practitioner's part otherwise there would be no practice. Then when Krsna and guru are pleased with the endeavor they may bestow their mercy. Some rare persons may attain an honorary degree, but generally it takes 120 units with at least a C average.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

At least a C average? No degree for me, I suppose.

[Beggar]

 

At least a C average? No degree for me, I suppose.

That's the exact point where the analogy fails.