krishnadasa Posted January 17, 2008 Report Share Posted January 17, 2008 A very good thread after a long time.. I should congratulate Raghu prabhu for this. I m not biased here w.r.t to western devotees, who have strived so hard to bring forth the real essence of what Sri krishna chaitanya and Srila prabhupada taught. A BIG DHANYAVAD FOR THAT. Neverthless, there are many times, kind of bond created between Abrahamic and vedic relgions, which is not healthy, however this is a very tricky issue as most of the white devotees when join ISKCON, bring also a big history of Karma which they performed being a christian/jew etc. And the reactions of these karma exist even after joining ISKCON and this always raises kinda confusion. This confusion turns out into making kinda a bond b/w sanatana and abrahamic religions. I am pretty sure that eventually, when the truth is revealed, they shall know what raghu is trying to tell here.. until then there is absolutely no point in debating on this issse.. However one debates, one cant get rid of the reaction of past deeds,, on the other hand they might increase by offending each other.. think over it.. Hari bol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raghu Posted January 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2008 And what is the fruit of Hare Krsna's in America? We have all been benefited but how many of us are there? And after just a couple decades it has been declining. So trying to compare the Hare Krsna movement's effects on the world since the 1960's and the influence of Christ (not christianity (the idiots amongst us will not be able to see a difference) over the last two thousand years makes little sense. Raghu your arguments are without merit in IMO. Ahem, but *I* am not claiming anything about iskcon/hare krishna movement's effect on the world. I have not said anything about it one way or another. I am only using the logic of the iskcon people (e.g. that their philosophy is a "higher philosophy") to show how it is inconsistent with their idea that Jesus is a Vishnu-bhakta who was propagating some limited, scaled-down Vaishnava dharma to people unqualified to hear full Hari-katha. The argument that Jesus is a Vaishnava cannot be supported by a dispassionate review of the available evidence. It can certainly be argued that today's Christianity is not the same as the Christianity propagated by Jesus. But then here is no evidence of what that "original" Christianity is, beyond the wishful thinking of (surprise, surprise) christian people who converted to iskcon Vaishnavism. There is also no evidence in any classical Vaishnava sampradaya of any positive recognition of the status of Jesus or other non-Hindu "prophets" even well after these other religions were introduced to India. What to speak of other Vaishnava sampradayas, there is not even one single statement about the supposed greatness of Jesus or Mohammed in the Gaudiya Vaishnava sampradaya prior to iskcon and iskcon's guru's guru! So far as I can tell, the sole reason iskcon would have for presenting Jesus or Mohammed as Vaishnavas/empowered preachers/shaktiaveshas is to get followers from members of those religions who would otherwise be unable to relate. It is no different from any other Hindu organization making laudatory or accepting statements about other religions and their prophets. Vivekananda did it. Sai Baba did it. Whether one says that Jesus is another form of Brahman or a "pure devotee of Krishna" is immateral; the bottom line is that he is just making something up. "kishnadasa" writes that there is absolutely no point in debating this issue. I agree, in as much as a debate usually occurs when the conclusion is not already obvious, and each side has an intelligent reason to believe as he does. What intelligent rationale can one offer for the idea that Jesus and Mohammed are actually Vaishnavas in disguise preaching different but valid "mleccha-dharmas" to unqualified people? On the contrary, there are innumerable reasons why any intelligent person will reject such an outrageous hypothesis: - No evidence in the writings of your sampradaya acharyas to support it - No evidence in shastra to support it - No conclusive evidence in the teachings of these other religions that can be indisputably traced to any Vaishnava tradition - Many ideas in these other religions (i.e. meat-eating, razing the temples of idol-worshippers, go to this prophet only or go to hell forever, only one lifetime, no concept of karma) that are actually incompatible or offensive to Vaishnavism - Followers of Christianity and Islam both did and continue to do irreparable harm to Vaishnava culture, so why would Sri Vishnu send His servants to create such "bona fide" religions when they just end up attacking Vaishnavism? - Inconsistency in saying that ancient Palestinians and Arabians were unqualified to hear full Vaishnavism due to being degraded, and yet even more highly degraded modern audience is not so restricted from hearing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted January 17, 2008 Report Share Posted January 17, 2008 The voice of another spiritsoul that is convinced he is a Hindu. There is also no evidence in any classical Vaishnava sampradaya of any positive recognition of the status of Jesus or other non-Hindu "prophets" even well after these other religions were introduced to India. What to speak of other Vaishnava sampradayas, there is not even one single statement about the supposed greatness of Jesus or Mohammed in the Gaudiya Vaishnava sampradaya prior to iskcon and iskcon's guru's guru! You choose to ignore the statements of SP and SBST. That is your business. But by ignoring them no one here will accept that you are competent to speak on Gaudiya Vaisnavism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baobabtree Posted January 17, 2008 Report Share Posted January 17, 2008 The voice of another spiritsoul that is convinced he is a Hindu. Namaste Theist If you don't mind me asking, what is your objection to this person identifying themselves as Hindu? (not christianity (the idiots amongst us will not be able to see a difference) To be fair, modern Christianity, both contains the basic teachings and spirit of Jesus, and contains a very strong moral message which has influenced mos of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 Namaste Theist If you don't mind me asking, what is your objection to this person identifying themselves as Hindu? No one is a hindu or christian or is;amist. Such are sectarian designations that only divide people into warring camps. We are all spiritsoul. To be fair, modern Christianity, both contains the basic teachings and spirit of Jesus, and contains a very strong moral message which has influenced mos of the world. Yes you are more generous that I. A temendous amount of goof influence is there. But on this board when someone speaks of jesus some nutjob will always pop up and talk about the Crusades or some other atrocity as if Jesus was there leading the charge.It was to them that I directed my remarks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krishnadasa Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 But on this board when someone speaks of jesus some nutjob will always pop up and talk about the Crusades or some other atrocity as if Jesus was there leading the charge.It was to them that I directed my remarks. One of my anscestors ran with a Nrsimhadeva idol from Goa, so he wouldnt become Baptised.. Indeed the book on which they were trying to do this was the same that u are referring to correlate Christianity with viashnawism..You see what I mean...I am not trying to offend here, but presenting a point , I mean SPB has in many instances given signal of how, a vaishnawa is against Islam eg: when he was talking about Nehru, who was more near to Mohamdeens than vaishnawas... hari bol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HerServant Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 One of my anscestors ran with a Nrsimhadeva idol from Goa, so he wouldnt become Baptised.. Indeed the book on which they were trying to do this was the same that u are referring to correlate Christianity with viashnawism..You see what I mean...I am not trying to offend here, but presenting a point , I mean SPB has in many instances given signal of how, a vaishnawa is against Islam eg: when he was talking about Nehru, who was more near to Mohamdeens than vaishnawas... hari bol I respect your position. Here is the "tricky" issue as I see it: If a "Christian" seeker on the path to find God, but has some faith in Jesus already ... if this person encounters a holy Vaisnava or the Vaisnava scriptures, this person will be intitially confused. This is because, what little faith this person already has in Jesus will be challenged. Should I worship Jesus? Is Jesus God? or Should I worship Krsna ? It becomes confusing. But this phenomenon should not frighten us, but rather challenge us to strive to be a better more sincere devotee. Wasn't one of Sri Chaitanya's followers absorbed in the worship of Rama, so much so, that "he must have been Hanuman in a previous life"? So someone in the presence of Sri Chaitanya exhibited the same tendency .. to run around Goa with the Nrsimhadeva idol so Jesus could catch him. Think about it. But to your point... we have to really work hard to cultivate our faith. For me, I am a servant of Jesus. I pray I am never removed from His feet. Reading Srimad Bhagavatam only brings me closer to Him. That is how it is for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 The book of mormon says that this Jesus Parampara was broken after the demise of the Apostles and was reestablished with the Book of mormon and Joseph Smith. It is said that Joseph Smith was wondering when was a child, where are the saints of Lord Jesus? and a Angel cameto meet Him and explain him all this things, it is very interesting. this time when the parampara was broken is called apostasy, anyway I don't believe in the Mormoniac Church, but I belive in the book of mormon Smith and a few other Freemasons created their church on the order from their Lodge. That book is fake, just like their completely man made religion. They all actually serve the Masonic Order, just like Opus Dei does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raghu Posted January 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 The voice of another spiritsoul that is convinced he is a Hindu. You choose to ignore the statements of SP and SBST. That is your business. But by ignoring them no one here will accept that you are competent to speak on Gaudiya Vaisnavism. Given your inability to comprehend basic facts and stick to the subject, I don't see any evidence that you are competent to speak on Gaudiya Vaishnavism. Why should I care what you think about my qualification? I did acknowledge that SP and maybe SBST think that Jesus is a Vaishnava. I just pointed out the uncomfortable truth that none of their predecessors *ever* made such a claim in their writings. This makes their claim nothing more than a recent fabrication - an add-on to the GV theology just for the purpose of making it more appealing to Westerners. Flaming me isn't going to change history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matarisvan Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 Vaishnava is an ancient word with a clear meaning and cannot be changed to accomodate your fantasies. To solve your problem it would make more sense to say Jesus was a Hare Krishna. The usage of Hare Krishna to specify a category of Krishna worshippers is new and as you own the patent you are free to include everyone you like under this label. It does not matter if that person never heard of Vishnu or Krishna in his life as was the case with Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 I have found that reason and logic are completely ineffective when dealing with people's sentiments. People will see what they want to see, and they will find enough arguments to support their claim. Ultimately who cares if bhakta X considers the God of Old Testament to be Lord Vishnu? To me it is a bizzare claim, but if it keeps bhakta X inspired, what is the harm? If acharyas make clear distinction between Lord Shiva and Lord Vishnu, and between Vaishnavas and Shivaites, the claim that Christians are Vaishnavas is 100% bogus because Christian God is the God of Old Testament, and there is no way any serious Vaishnava scholar would claim that it is Lord Vishnu. It may a smart preaching tactic to call Christians "Vaishnavas" - like Prabhupada did, but it is not consistent with our teachings. There I go with more reason and logic.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HerServant Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 Vaishnava is an ancient word with a clear meaning and cannot be changed to accomodate your fantasies. To solve your problem it would make more sense to say Jesus was a Hare Krishna. The usage of Hare Krishna to specify a category of Krishna worshippers is new and as you own the patent you are free to include everyone you like under this label. It does not matter if that person never heard of Vishnu or Krishna in his life as was the case with Jesus. The oldest historical and archeological reference of Visnu, and Krsna Baladeva worship are biblical. I can't help the fact that sectarianists (on both sides) will HATE this fact. But the facts are as they are: The inscription on the above column reads: ""This Garuda-column of Vasudeva (Visnu), the god of gods, was erected here by Heliodorus, a worshipper of Visnu, the son of Dion, and an inhabitant of Taxila, who came as Greek ambassador from the Great King Antialkidas to King Kasiputra Bhagabhadra, the Savior, then reigning prosperously in the fourteenth year of his kingship." see: - http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/vedic-upanisads/vedic-archeology.html IN THE BIBLE in 2 Machabees Chapter 3. Heliodorus is sent by king Seleucus to take away the treasures deposited in the temple. He is struck down by God who appears in the form of Kalki, Krsna and Baladeva. At the request of his followers he is healed by the prayers of the high priest. Heliodorus then takes a solemn vow at the temple to proclaim the glories of God everywhere. 2 Machabees Chapter 23-36 But Heliodorus executed that which he had resolved on, himself being present in the same place with his guard about the treasury. But the spirit of the Almighty God gave a great evidence of his presence, so that all that had presumed to obey him, falling down by the power of God, were struck with fainting and dread. For there appeared to them a horse, with a terrible rider upon him, adorned with a very rich covering: and he ran fiercely and struck Heliodorus with his fore feet, and he that sat upon him seemed to have armour of gold. Moreover there appeared two other young men, beautiful and strong, bright and glorious, and in comely apparel: who stood by him, on either side, and scourged him without ceasing with many stripes. And Heliodorus suddenly fell to the ground, and they took him up, covered with great darkness, and having put him into a litter, they carried him out. So he that came with many servants, and all his guard, into the aforesaid treasury, was carried out, no one being able to help him, the manifest power of God being known. And he indeed, by the power of God, lay speechless, and without all hope of recovery. But they praised the Lord, because he had glorified his place: and the temple, that a little before was full of fear and trouble, when the Almighty Lord appeared, was filled with joy and gladness. Then some of the friends of Heliodorus forthwith begged of Onias, that he would call upon the Most High to grant him his life, who was ready to give up the ghost. So the high priest, considering that the king might perhaps suspect that some mischief had been done to Heliodorus by the Jews, offered a sacrifice of health for the recovery of the man. And when the high priest was praying, the same young men in the same clothing stood by Heliodorus, and said to him: Give thanks to Onias the priest: because for his sake the Lord hath granted thee life. And thou having been scourged by God, declare unto all men the great works and the power of God. And having spoken thus, they appeared no more. So Heliodorus, after he had offered a sacrifice to God, and made great vows to him, that had granted him life, and given thanks to Onias, taking his troops with him, returned to the king. And he testified to all men the works of the great God, which he had seen with his own eyes. The (Jewish) Temple of Jerusalem was a Vishnu Temple and Heliodorus was given the mission of preaching His Glories "to all men" by the Lord Himself appearing as " two other young men, beautiful and strong, bright and glorious, and in comely apparel" Ahh ha hahahha ahahah ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krishnadasa Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 I respect your position. Here is the "tricky" issue as I see it: If a "Christian" seeker on the path to find God, but has some faith in Jesus already ... if this person encounters a holy Vaisnava or the Vaisnava scriptures, this person will be intitially confused. This is because, what little faith this person already has in Jesus will be challenged. Should I worship Jesus? Is Jesus God? or Should I worship Krsna ? It becomes confusing. But this phenomenon should not frighten us, but rather challenge us to strive to be a better more sincere devotee. Wasn't one of Sri Chaitanya's followers absorbed in the worship of Rama, so much so, that "he must have been Hanuman in a previous life"? So someone in the presence of Sri Chaitanya exhibited the same tendency .. to run around Goa with the Nrsimhadeva idol so Jesus could catch him. Think about it. But to your point... we have to really work hard to cultivate our faith. For me, I am a servant of Jesus. I pray I am never removed from His feet. Reading Srimad Bhagavatam only brings me closer to Him. That is how it is for me. I am with you , indeed i wrote similar point in one of my posts in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 The (Jewish) Temple of Jerusalem was a Vishnu Temple and Heliodorus was given the mission of preaching His Glories "to all men" by the Lord Himself appearing as " two other young men, beautiful and strong, bright and glorious, and in comely apparel" Ahh ha hahahha ahahah ! AHAHAH! indeed... Heliodorus From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia <!-- start content -->Several persons named Heliodorus are known to us from ancient times, the best known of which is Heliodorus of Emesa, author of the novel Aethiopica. Heliodorus a minister of Seleucus IV Philopator ca. 175 BC Heliodorus a Greek ambassador who erected famous votive Heliodorus pillar near Vidisha, Madhya Pradesh, India Heliodorus of Athens ancient author who wrote fifteen books on the Acropolis of Athens, possibly about 150 BC. Heliodorus a metrist in the 1st century AD who did work on the comedies of Aristophanes Heliodorus a surgeon, probably from Egypt, and mentioned in the Satires of Juvenal Heliodorus (philosopher) the author of a work entitled Commentary (564 AD) Heliodorus a Mesopotamian bishop and martyr Heliodorus a legendary character from Catania ------------- just stick to what you know for a fact, do not make up anymore fairytales that already circulate among the devotees Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HerServant Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 ignore what you want .. and if you like cling to sectarianism .. but there is only one Heliodorus of the same rank and time period of the Heliodorus mentioned in connection with the Garuda column and the book of Maccabees. Only one Heliodorus whom God appeared as Two Beautiful , Glorious Youths, and told him to "proclaim God's Glories to all men" AND the oldest written, archeologically verifiable record of such a Heliodorus is there in the book of the bible. HS and yours Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HerServant Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 AHAHAH! indeed... Heliodorus From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia <!-- start content -->Several persons named Heliodorus are known to us from ancient times, the best known of which is Heliodorus of Emesa, author of the novel Aethiopica. Heliodorus a minister of Seleucus IV Philopator ca. 175 BC Heliodorus a Greek ambassador who erected famous votive Heliodorus pillar near Vidisha,The above two are the only in the same time period.. the below are not Madhya Pradesh, India Heliodorus of Athens ancient author who wrote fifteen books on the Acropolis of Athens, possibly about 150 BC. Heliodorus a metrist in the 1st century AD who did work on the comedies of Aristophanes Heliodorus a surgeon, probably from Egypt, and mentioned in the Satires of Juvenal Heliodorus (philosopher) the author of a work entitled Commentary (564 AD) Heliodorus a Mesopotamian bishop and martyr Heliodorus a legendary character from Catania ------------- just stick to what you know for a fact, do not make up anymore fairytales that already circulate among the devotees Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matarisvan Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 The oldest historical and archeological reference of Visnu, and Krsna Baladeva worship are biblical.... I do not see Vishnu or Krishna in your post. You appear to have some compulsive need to post incorrect material over and over again. Did you not post that genesis = Ganesha sometime back? That says it all. It is a waste of everyone's time. You and your partner theist can continue to push your brand of christian vaishnavism if you can find someone who takes you seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HerServant Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 I do not see Vishnu or Krishna in your post. You appear to have some compulsive need to post incorrect material over and over again. Did you not post that genesis = Ganesha sometime back? That says it all. It is a waste of everyone's time. You and your partner theist can continue to push your brand of christian vaishnavism if you can find someone who takes you seriously. tell her Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 ignore what you want .. and if you like cling to sectarianism .. but there is only one Heliodorus of the same rank and time period of the Heliodorus mentioned in connection with the Garuda column and the book of Maccabees. Please! take time and do even the most rudimentary research on the subject before you come up with such theories. Heliodorus used to be quite a popular name and everything we know about these two Heliodoruses indicates they were completely different people. As to being sectarian... I can only laugh at that. I feel connected to so many traditions - from Gaudiya Vaishnavism to monism, from Christainity to "pagan" shamanism, from mystic yoga to tantra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HerServant Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 I did the research .. you don't have to like it. I am not preaching authoratively on Heliodorus .. hence the "ha aahha hha " is exclamitory. In fact, I am glad you challenge .. more research is definitely required .. on both sides Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krishnaleela Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 AHAHAH! indeed... Hi Kulapavana, other Hindus, etc. please read that article in HerServant's link carefully. Its purpose, etc is very much in our favour and written exactly to counter this nonsense. The guy was a Greek ambassador who erected the column in Beshanagar India. Nothing "biblical" to the column. Quote: "while Megasthenes had only written about Krishna and Vaisnavism, Heliodorus had found them so attractive that he had adopted the practice of Vaisnavism for his own spiritual advancement!" Anyway read the article completely. Good work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HerServant Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 Hi Kulapavana, other Hindus, etc. please read that article in HerServant's link carefully. Its purpose, etc is very much in our favour and written exactly to counter this nonsense. The guy was a Greek ambassador who erected the column in Beshanagar India. Nothing "biblical" to the column. Quote: "while Megasthenes had only written about Krishna and Vaisnavism, Heliodorus had found them so attractive that he had adopted the practice of Vaisnavism for his own spiritual advancement!" Anyway read the article completely. Good work. Yes, I referenced that link by design. Why do the authors not make a single mention or reference to the Heliodorus of the Bible and refute my position? Because they can't! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 Yes, I referenced that link by design. Why do the authors not make a single mention or reference to the Heliodorus of the Bible and refute my position? Because they can't! LOL! no, because NOBODY in the academic circles believes these two Heliodoruses are the same person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HerServant Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 really? http://www.wikimirror.com/Heliodorus "Heliodorus was a minister of Seleucus IV Philopator ca. 175 BC , and is said to have assassinated Seleucus. 2 Maccabees reports that he entered the Temple in Jerusalem in order to take its treasure, but was turned back by three forms of God . Possibly the same Heliodorus as the previous one (living in the same time period and having the same rank) erected famous votive Heliodorus pillar near Vidisha , Madhya Pradesh , India with an inscription: "This Garuda -column of Vasudeva (Visnu ), the god of gods, was erected here by Heliodorus, a worshiper of Visnu, the son of Dion, and an inhabitant of Taxila , who came as Greek ambassador from the Great King Antialkidas (Antialcidas ) to King Kasiputra Bhagabhadra, the savior, then reigning prosperously in the fourteenth year of his kingship." (Transliteration and translation of this ancient Brahmi inscription was published in the Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society (London: JRAS, Pub., 1909, pp. 1053-54.)" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 Hi Kulapavana, other Hindus, etc. please read that article in HerServant's link carefully. Its purpose, etc is very much in our favour and written exactly to counter this nonsense. The guy was a Greek ambassador who erected the column in Beshanagar India. Nothing "biblical" to the column. I know that article and I know the subject matter from various angles (Heliodorus column). The Hare Christian cross-breeds create "reality" out of their wishful thinking, disregarding reason, logic, and very solid research done on both sides of that issue. When one challenges their pet theories, they attack him for being "sectarian"... There is no science in their approach, just pure sentiment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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