Vaisnava Bible Study - Is Jesus Vaisnava?

matarisvan · February 1, 2008

notice how fast this thread fell off the front page .. we are still waiting for the response

hs and yours.

No one responded because it fell off the front page. Raghu will answer for himself.

Here is a link to learn about Sri Vaishnavism or Vishishtadvaitam

http://www.ramanuja.org/

Here is a link for Sad Vaishnavism also known as Tattvavada or Dvaita

http://www.dvaita.org

Vishishtadvaitam, Dvaita and Advaita are two of the three major traditions of Vedanta alive to this day. The first two are Vaishnava traditions and the latter is a Smarta tradition.

bhaktajan · February 1, 2008

Originally Posted by matarisvan
Vishishtadvaitam, Dvaita and Advaita are two of the three major traditions of Vedanta alive to this day. The first two are Vaishnava traditions and the latter is a Smarta tradition.

Please compose a micro-outline of the difference; do a compact business-card sized break-down.

Could you do the same for the different Vaisnava maths/Samdayas?

ys,

Bhaktajan.

What about Christ's opinions on: diet/meditation/observances of ekadasi fasts/metaphysics/nature of the soul/nature of death/celestrial vs. terrestrial vs. transcendental abodes/yamaraja & pergatory/baby making/education/work in devotion to Godhead/Mysteries yet to be revealed/health & hygene/agarian economics ?

HerServant · February 1, 2008

No one responded because it fell off the front page. Raghu will answer for himself.

Here is a link to learn about Sri Vaishnavism or Vishishtadvaitam

http://www.ramanuja.org/

Here is a link for Sad Vaishnavism also known as Tattvavada or Dvaita

http://www.dvaita.org

Vishishtadvaitam, Dvaita and Advaita are two of the three major traditions of Vedanta alive to this day. The first two are Vaishnava traditions and the latter is a Smarta tradition.

Thank you for these references to these sites. There are "hundreds" of positive references about Jesus on this site and He is clearly accepted as "Vaisnava", though not in a cultural and religion sense.

The content of these sites clearly indicates that Raghu is not in their lineage or is not following their philosophy and teachings. The quotes below are from ramanuja.org and dvaita.org :

Jesus is very clearly "fully God". This is the position of all
Christian churches, except for the Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses.

God is perceived in orthodox Christianity as a Trinity -- He is threefold,

yet at the same time, One God. There is the "Father who is in Heaven",

the Son (Jesus, the incarnation), and the Holy Spirit, the essence of

God that guides people's hearts. Notice the parallelism between the

Srivaishnava concept of the Paravaasudeva, the Vibhava avataara (Rama,

Krishna, etc), and the haarda (the incarnation of the Lord in the

heart).

-- Mani Varadarajan

Re: Jesus being God

Well, in the end, a quotation here and there from the Bible

do not really matter in this discussion, since Christianity

has as its *fundamental* tenet that Jesus was "fully God" as

well as "fully human". Sound contradictory? It may on the

face of it, but much theological discussion on this topic

has occurred over the past two millenia, so what may seem

contradictory to outsiders seems as clear as day to orthodox

Christians.

Nevertheless, here are some quotations. The most obvious

examples of Jesus's divinity occur in the Gospel according

to John, found in the New Testament. Here, Jesus as the Son

is represented in Greek as the Logos, which translates to

"Word". But the Word is the same as God.

John 1:1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was

with God, and the Word was God.

1:3: All things were made by him; and without him was not

any thing made that was made.

Furthermore, in the Jewish tradition, the only person who

can absolve humans of sins is God himself. Jesus very clearly

takes on this role, and declares himself as the redeemer. The

Jewish people of his time react to this as an implicit claim

that he is equal to God. We have to view the Bible and the

story of Jesus from the cultural perspective of the Jews of

that time. I would ask you look at passages such as Mark 2:7,

"And who can forgive sins but God only?"

There is a file on the network for about this question, directed

mainly at people who are not familiar with the Bible. The difficult

thing for non-Christians to understand is the Trinity concept of

Christianity, where there are three persons in God, but they are

of one essence. Therefore, Jesus is not simply God; he is more

properly the *incarnation* of God, since, unlike in our religion,

the Incarnation is a unique, one-time special occurrence.

It is very hard to properly convey Christian ideas about the

nature of God in so short a manner, but trust me on this one:

their entire religion is based upon Christ being the redeemer,

Christ being God, and Christ having died to absolve us of our

sins.

Re: The Painful death of Christ -- why?

This is another difficult question for non-Christians to understand,

but let us go back to the time of the early Jews, where it was

thought that any digression from "the Law" of God (equivalent to

Dharma-Sastras) was considered a great offense. The Law included

minute details (equivalent to "aachaaram") of observance, and they

believed that God was appeased through regular sacrifices, etc.

This was the so-called "Old Covenant", a contract of sorts between

the Jews and God.

So, all the while they are waiting for the Savior, who will restore

them to righteousness, lead the out of slavery, etc. The

exact nature of what constituted the Savior was in great debate

at that time. Anyway, according to Christian belief, Jesus came as

the Incarnation of God to show people the "new way", the New Covenant

that God wanted to strike between people and the Lord. But, again

according to Christian belief, the wonderful paradox which shows

the great condescension of the Lord is that he incarnated in a way

that made him "fully human" -- he was perfect, no doubt, and "fully

divine", but fully human in that he was flesh and blood. (This is

a very deep theological issue which I do not properly understand).

To perform the last sacrifice necessary to redeem all people,

Jesus underwent great suffering in the name of the Lord. This is a sign

of his great mercy. Jesus is therefore seen as the "Lamb of God",

sacrificed to absolve all sins of the people if they simply put their

faith and surrender to him. The mystery of Christ is that three days

after his crucifixion, he was resurrected -- this is the heart of

Christian belief, that if we believe in Christ, we are granted everlasting

life in heaven and we shall not die in an inert way or go to hell, or

any such thing. Salvation is attained.

Just as westerners find it hard to understand our belief system since

they do not come from our cultural perspective, we will find it hard

to accept all these beliefs since we do not understand the basis of

Christianity. This is in fact why Indian Christianity is in many ways

more like a bhakti movement than like Western Christianity.

The designations like Hindu, Christian, European,

Indian, Chinese etc. are bodily designations and don't

apply to the soul.

First we must try to answer the question - "who am I?"

Am I this body or am I something else. From the Vedic

literature we get full information about who we really

are.

We are spirit souls inhabiting this physical body. We

are not matter. I am not this body, but my body is my

property. Just as I go to a shop and buy a car and I

own the car, similarly I have "bought" this body of

mine by my karmas done in my previous life. My karmas

have determined what type of body I have acquired in

this life.

By doing good actions and dedicating them to the lotus

feet of Vishnu (GOD), I can free myself from the

reactions of Karmas and go to the ETERNAL kingdom of

God, from where there is no return. There I will live

with God forever. In the Vedic literature this eternal

abode is called VAIKUNTHA.

Of course you can continue to remain a christian and

enter the same celestial abode as us Hindus.

Lord Krsna says in the Bhagavad Gita - "Aham bija

prada pita" (I am the seed giving father).

Therefore God is my father as well as yours. He

bestows his grace equally on all with no

discrimination.

We just have to shelter under his lotus feet, whether

we are inhabiting a Hindu body or christian body.

Jesus himself praised his father(GOD) in the bible by

saying "Hallowed be thy name!". Therefore we have to

chant his holy name always. The Lord's holy name is

called Hari-nama.

There is a great power in Hari-nama or the name of

God.

Hope this helps.

Thanks,

rohit

bhaktajan · February 1, 2008

A)

Originally Posted by ?? (herservant cites this in Posting #78) . . . God is perceived in orthodox Christianity as a Trinity -- He is threefold, yet at the same time, One God. There is the "Father who is in Heaven", the Son (Jesus, the incarnation), and the Holy Spirit, the essence of God that guides people's hearts. Notice the parallelism between . . .

As per the Hindu Trinity, Godhead is*:

I— Bhagavan (God Personage as "He who alone Possesses of all Six Opulences"—all wealth, all strength, all beauty, all intelligence, all fame & most renounced).

II—Paramatma (God as the life-force localized within the nucleus of each and every animate and inanimate particle of the Creation).

III—Brahman (God as the omnipresent/omniscient vacant space, which is occupied by all the animate and inanimate particles that compose the Creation).

[*NOTE: All of Creation is accounted for in these three categories, beyond these three categories no additional separate entities exists, all things are accounted for in this Hindu Trinity—as revealed in the Vedic literatures].

………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

B)

Originally Posted by ?? (herservant cites this in Posting #78)
. . . There I will live with God forever. In the Vedic literature this eternal abode is called VAIKUNTHA.

. . . Of course you can continue to remain a christian and

enter the same celestial abode as us Hindus. — Rohit

Bhagavad-gita 3.26:

So as not to disrupt the minds of ignorant men attached to the fruitive results of prescribed duties, a learned person should not induce them to stop work. Rather, by working in the spirit of devotion, he should engage them in all sorts of activities [for the gradual development of Krsna consciousness].

Purport:

. . . All rituals, all performances of sacrifices, and everything that is put into the Vedas, including all direction for material activities, are meant for understanding Krsna, who is the ultimate goal of life.

But because the conditioned souls do not know anything beyond sense gratification, they study the Vedas to that end.

But through fruitive activities and sense gratification regulated by the Vedic rituals one is gradually elevated to Krsna consciousness.

Therefore a realized soul in Krsna consciousness should not disturb others in their activities or understanding, but he should act by showing how the results of all work can be dedicated to the service of Krsna.

The learned Krsna conscious person may act in such a way that the ignorant person working for sense gratification may learn how to act and how to behave. Although the ignorant man is not to be disturbed in his activities . . .

[bhaktajan's Note: herein above the word 'ignorant' denote a non-seeker's knowledge which is bereft of the Vedic scriptural understanding of the nature of:

□ The soul,

□ material energy (prakriti),

□ karma vs. vikarma vs. akarma

□ Time and its constituent properties/perview.

□ Isvara—God as: Controller/Source of Sacrifice/Possessor of all Opulences/Mysterious Personality of Godhead revealed as Krishna.

HerServant · February 1, 2008

A)

As per the Hindu Trinity, Godhead is*:

I— Bhagavan (God Personage as "He who alone Possesses of all Six Opulences"—all wealth, all strength, all beauty, all intelligence, all fame & most renounced).

II—Paramatma (God as the life-force localized within the nucleus of each and every animate and inanimate particle of the Creation).

III—Brahman (God as the omnipresent/omniscient vacant space, which is occupied by all the animate and inanimate particles that compose the Creation).

[*NOTE: All of Creation is accounted for in these three categories, beyond these three categories no additional separate entities exists, all things are accounted for in this Hindu Trinity—as revealed in the Vedic literatures].

………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

B)

Bhagavad-gita 3.26:

So as not to disrupt the minds of ignorant men attached to the fruitive results of prescribed duties, a learned person should not induce them to stop work. Rather, by working in the spirit of devotion, he should engage them in all sorts of activities [for the gradual development of Krsna consciousness].

Purport:

. . . All rituals, all performances of sacrifices, and everything that is put into the Vedas, including all direction for material activities, are meant for understanding Krsna, who is the ultimate goal of life.

But because the conditioned souls do not know anything beyond sense gratification, they study the Vedas to that end.

But through fruitive activities and sense gratification regulated by the Vedic rituals one is gradually elevated to Krsna consciousness.

Therefore a realized soul in Krsna consciousness should not disturb others in their activities or understanding, but he should act by showing how the results of all work can be dedicated to the service of Krsna.

The learned Krsna conscious person may act in such a way that the ignorant person working for sense gratification may learn how to act and how to behave. Although the ignorant man is not to be disturbed in his activities . . .

[bhaktajan's Note: herein above the word 'ignorant' denote a non-seeker's knowledge which is bereft of the Vedic scriptural understanding of the nature of:

? The soul,

? material energy (prakriti),

? karma vs. vikarma vs. akarma

? Time and its constituent properties/perview.

? Isvara—God as: Controller/Source of Sacrifice/Possessor of all Opulences/Mysterious Personality of Godhead revealed as Krishna.

Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya! Thank you Bhaktajan :pray:

All very nice references! Reminds me of this quote:

“Preach the Gospel always and if necessary use words.” - St. Francis of Assisi

Lord, make me an instrument of your peace;
Where there is hatred, let me sow love;

Where there is injury, pardon;

Where there is doubt, faith;

Where there is despair, hope;

Where there is darkness, light;

Where there is sadness, joy;

Grant that I may not so much seek

To be consoled as to console;

To be understood as to understand;

To be loved as to love;

For it is in giving that we receive;

It is in forgiving that we are forgiven;

and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life. - St. Francis of Assisi

Hare Krsna!

bhaktajan · February 1, 2008

Various Triads that seem to be parallel to each other:

Karanadakasayi-Visnu

“MahaVisnu”

Supersoul of Material Cosmos

.

Paramesvara

Mind

Contemplation

Attachment

Desire

Lust

.

Miseries caused by the mind and body

.

(adhyatmika)

.

Thinking

Internal energy

“Yoga-Maya”

.

Bhagavan

Adhi-yajna

Visnu

.

Sattva-guna

Bhakti

Brahma-Sabda

.

Sat

<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com

Om</st1:place>

.

Guru

Kala

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Garbhodakasayi-Visnu

Supersoul of the Bhahmanda

.

Hrisikesa

Senses

Desire

Fear

Greed

.

Miseries inflicted by other living entities

.

(adhibhautika)

.

Feeling

Marginal energy

“Jiva-atmas”

(tatastha-sakti) (ksetrajna-sakti)

.

Brahman

Adhi-bhuta

Shiva

.

Tamas-guna

Karma

Sense-perception

.

Chitta

Tat

.

Sadhu

Desha

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Ksirodakasayi-Visnu

Supersoul of the Jiva-atmas

.

Suhridam-sarva-bhutanam

Intelligence—[Gita 5.28]

Anger—[Gita 2.62]

Anger —[Gita 4.10]

Anger —[Gita 5.28]

Anger—[Gita 16.21]

.

Miseries are concerned, these are natural disasters that originate with the demigods

.

(adhidaivika)

.

Willing

External energy

“Maha-Maya”

(bahiranga-sakti)

<Durga>

.

Paramatma

Adhi-daiva

Brahma

.

Rajas-guna

Dhyana

Inference

.

Ananda

Sat

.

Sastra

Patra

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HerServant · February 1, 2008

Krsnadaasa Kaviraja lists the following twenty-six good qualities of a Vaisnava:

(1) He is very kind to everyone.

(2) He does not make anyone his enemy.

(3) He is truthful.

(4) He is equal to everyone.

(5) No one can find any fault in him.

(6) He is magnanimous.

(7) He is mild.

(8) He is always clean.

(9) He is without possessions.

(10) He works for everyone's benefit.

(11) He is very peaceful.

(12) He is always surrendered to Krsna.

(13) He has no material desires.

(14) He is very meek.

(15) He is steady.

(16) He controls his senses.

(17) He does not eat more than required.

(18) He is not influenced by the Lord's illusory energy.

(19) He offers respect to everyone.

(20) He does not desire any respect for himself.

(21) He is very grave.

(22) He is merciful.

(23) He is friendly.

(24) He is poetic.

(25) He is expert.

(26) He is silent." [srimad-Bhagavatam 5.18.12 Purport]

Hare Krsna! Jesu Ki Jaya!

Murali_Mohan_das · February 1, 2008

There's no way I'm a Vaishnava, then.

I guess my body is pretty clean most of the time, but my house is a mess. That's as close as I get.

Of course, these qualities all remind me of Srila Gurudev. Maybe they'll start to rub off on me.

Krsnadaasa Kaviraja lists the following twenty-six good qualities of a Vaisnava:

(1) He is very kind to everyone.

(2) He does not make anyone his enemy.

(3) He is truthful.

(4) He is equal to everyone.

(5) No one can find any fault in him.

(6) He is magnanimous.

(7) He is mild.

(8) He is always clean.

(9) He is without possessions.

(10) He works for everyone's benefit.

(11) He is very peaceful.

(12) He is always surrendered to Krsna.

(13) He has no material desires.

(14) He is very meek.

(15) He is steady.

(16) He controls his senses.

(17) He does not eat more than required.

(18) He is not influenced by the Lord's illusory energy.

(19) He offers respect to everyone.

(20) He does not desire any respect for himself.

(21) He is very grave.

(22) He is merciful.

(23) He is friendly.

(24) He is poetic.

(25) He is expert.

(26) He is silent." [srimad-Bhagavatam 5.18.12 Purport]

Hare Krsna! Jesu Ki Jaya!

RadheRade1657 · February 2, 2008

The god of the Bible is a "jealous god," as he himself states in the Old Testament: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me, for I the Lord am a jealous god...."
The god of the Old Testament is partial to some races over others. He favors the Hebrews (for no obvious reason - many still doubt him throughout Exodus) over the Egyptians.

The god of the Hebrews/Christians is partial and cruel. According to Exodus, he makes pharaoh stubborn in the face of Moses' demands that the Hebrews be released, just so he can attack the people of Egypt with plagues, locusts, etc. He even strikes down their first-born children just to make a point! This sounds like rakshasa behavior.

We're talking about Jesus, not Yahweh. In many lost gospels, Jesus talks bad about Yahweh and the rule of the Old Testament. The Gnostic Christians didn't believe in Yahweh, and would definitely agree with you that he was a demon or rakshasa. They actually believed in multiple gods and incarnations of God, since they didn't believe in Yahweh's rule, for example, Mother Mary, the Virgin Sophia, and (in Manichean sects) the Buddha, along with Jesus. They thought that the Father that Jesus talked about was someone completely different from Yahweh. I tend to follow their teaching, since I don't like the message of the Old Testament, but I do like the message of Jesus.

As devious as our rakshasa friend was, however, he could not help but be disappointed with the Hebrews. After all, there were limits to their desires for expansion - they were content to have escaped Egyptian slavery. These were not the violent and dominating race he was secretly hoping for, and so the rakshasa arranged for a new variation of the religion - Christianity - which was forged under the violent tutelage of Roman persecution. So well had the Christians learned the lesson of violent persecution that they were quick to take up those reins once the Roman Empire fell out of power, inaugurating centuries of religious suppression and intersectarian conflict that rage throughout Europe even to this day.

So, just because someone does something bad in someone else's name (without that person asking them to) makes the person whose name they're doing it in bad? Jesus said things like "Treat others as you would like to be treated.", "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. No one has greater love than this, to lay one's life down for one's friends.", "Why do you see the speck in your neighbor's eye, but do not notice the beam in your own eye? Or how can you say to your neighbor, 'Friend, let me take the speck out of your eye," when you yourself do not see the beam in your own eye? You who do this are hypocritical. First, take the beam out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of the eye of your neighbor.", and "Let anyone who is among you that is without sin cast the first stone at her." This is the law of Jesus. The men of the Spanish and Roman Inquisitions didn't follow these laws. They were just trying to increase their power and hid behind religion and superstition in order to do it. It wasn't Jesus or Jesus' message that committed these atrocities. It was men hiding behind religion and their greed.

Jugg · February 2, 2008

OP, which one are you going to follow? Please don't answer by simply saying, "both." How can you learn both at the same time? After you learn one completely, then you can learn the other...

raghu · February 2, 2008

The Old Testament (Exodus 7.2-5) also describes how "God" will punish the people of Egypt. He states that he will make Pharaoh refuse to listen to Moses, thus prompting he (God) to punish the people of Egypt in various ways.

You shall speak all that I command you, and your brother Aaron shall tell Pharaoh to let the people of Israel go out of his land. But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt, Pharaoh will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and bring my hosts, my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great acts of judgment. The Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring out the people of Israel from among them." Moses and Aaron did so; they did just as the LORD commanded them. Now Moses was eighty years old, and Aaron eighty-three years old, when they spoke to Pharaoh.

The punishments were as follows - turning the waters of the Nile into blood, the plague of frogs, gnats, flies, killing the Egyptian livestock, the plague of boils, hail, locusts, darkness, and then tops it off by killing all of the first-born children of Egypt.

In each case, the texts make it clear that it was the people of Egypt who had to suffer from all of these punishments because Pharaoh's heart was hardened. It was also mentioned numerous times that the "Lord" himself hardened Pharaoh's heart, resulting in the various punishments up to and including the atrocity of killing the first-born children of Egypt.

Does this "god" behave the way Sri Hari does? Does Sri Krishna manipulate people into defying Him so that He can send plagues into their houses and kill their children? Again, don't take my word for it - just read the text yourself.

Another statement that illustrates the principle that the Judeo-Christian god is partial and cruel is this passage from Exodus 10.1-2:

Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I dealt harshly with the Egyptians and how I performed my signs among them, and that you may know that I am the LORD."

Essentially, the Judeo-Christian "God" is telling Moses once again that he manipulated the will of the Egyptian leaders so that he could torture the people of Egypt.

Once again, let us be clear on the relationships -

- "God" sends Moses to demand the Israelites' release from Pharaoh

- "God" hardens Pharaoh's heart so that Pharaoh will not listen to Moses

- "God" then sends a plague which terrorizes the people of Egypt

- "God" again sends Moses to demand the Israelites' release from Pharaoh

- "God" again hardens Pharaoh's heart so that Pharaoh will not listen to Moses

- "God" again sends another plague which again terrorizes the people of Egypt

... ad nauseum

"God" sends Moses -- "God" makes Pharaoh refuse Moses -- "God" indiscriminately kills Egyptian women and children (but never Pharaoh)

Does this sound like the same para Brahman Sri Krishna who Himself became the chariot driver of Arjuna, or who released Gajendra from the grip of the crocodile, or who greeted the lowly Sudhama Brahmana like a friend with tears of divine joy?

As always, deliberate on the points objectively. Feel free also to consult the original text for fuller appreciation of the Biblical context.

raghu · February 2, 2008

Another statement that illustrates the principle that the Judeo-Christian god is partial and cruel is this passage from Exodus 10.1-2:

Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I dealt harshly with the Egyptians and how I performed my signs among them, and that you may know that I am the LORD."

Essentially, the Judeo-Christian "God" is telling Moses once again that he manipulated the will of the Egyptian leaders so that he could torture the people of Egypt.

Once again, let us be clear on the relationships -

- "God" sends Moses to demand the Israelites' release from Pharaoh

- "God" hardens Pharaoh's heart so that Pharaoh will not listen to Moses

- "God" then sends a plague which terrorizes the people of Egypt

- "God" again sends Moses to demand the Israelites' release from Pharaoh

- "God" again hardens Pharaoh's heart so that Pharaoh will not listen to Moses

- "God" again sends another plague which again terrorizes the people of Egypt

... ad nauseum

"God" sends Moses -- "God" makes Pharaoh refuse Moses -- "God" indiscriminately kills Egyptian women and children (but never Pharaoh)

Does this sound like the same para Brahman Sri Krishna who Himself became the chariot driver of Arjuna, or who released Gajendra from the grip of the crocodile, or who greeted the lowly Sudhama Brahmana like a friend with tears of divine joy?

As always, deliberate on the points objectively. Feel free also to consult the original text for fuller appreciation of the Biblical context.

And once again, to illustrate the principle of the Judeo-Christian "God's" partiality, we have this passage from Exodus 11.4-8:

So Moses said, "This is what the LORD says: 'About midnight I will go throughout Egypt. Every firstborn son in Egypt will die, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sits on the throne, to the firstborn son of the slave girl, who is at her hand mill, and all the firstborn of the cattle as well. There will be loud wailing throughout Egypt—worse than there has ever been or ever will be again. But among the Israelites not a dog will bark at any man or animal.' Then you will know that the LORD makes a distinction between Egypt and Israel.

Does Sri Vishnu play racial or ethnic favorites?

Please feel free to consult the original text for better appreciation of the context.

pauliztarza · February 2, 2008

I remember in 1973 we first went to Tassi and Gopikantha was being harassed by Jesus fundamentalists, he just wanted to distributed Prabhupadas books remembering that if you talk to Christians nut cases, you will just become one. So he acted dumb saying he never heard of the bloke, asking them which team does he play for and what position does he play in. Eventually these nut cases gave up and he was able to distribute Prabhupada's books without any interuptions. I had one talking in tonges around me, that is until we got the Mrdunga drum and cartels and stated chanting Hare Krishna.

Footnote - I have the uttmost respect for Jesus, after all, it was him I prayed to in the Cathedral in Melbourne who I believe answered my prayers by sending me to Srila Prabhupada and Lord Caitanya, on Lord Caitanya's appearance day 1972, the day I 'shaved up'

The fact is Jesus has passed the batton on to a new generation, a new Religion to the West. There is no need to read the Bible anymore now that we have the Srimad Bhagavatam etc

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare

You remember Prabhupad's encounter with othodox priest when Prabhupad told him that Indian people mean Krista, Krista when they are chanting Krishna Krishna, because sanskrit root is Krista ?

RadheRade1657 · February 2, 2008

And once again, to illustrate the principle of the Judeo-Christian "God's" partiality, we have this passage from Exodus 11.4-8:

So Moses said, "This is what the LORD says: 'About midnight I will go throughout Egypt. Every firstborn son in Egypt will die, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sits on the throne, to the firstborn son of the slave girl, who is at her hand mill, and all the firstborn of the cattle as well. There will be loud wailing throughout Egypt—worse than there has ever been or ever will be again. But among the Israelites not a dog will bark at any man or animal.' Then you will know that the LORD makes a distinction between Egypt and Israel.

Does Sri Vishnu play racial or ethnic favorites?

Please feel free to consult the original text for better appreciation of the context.

This discussion is about Jesus, not Yahweh.

Jesus said:

"Treat others as you would like to be treated.", "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. No one has greater love than this, to lay one's life down for one's friends.", "Why do you see the speck in your neighbor's eye, but do not notice the beam in your own eye? Or how can you say to your neighbor, 'Friend, let me take the speck out of your eye,' when you yourself do not see the beam in your own eye? You who do this are hypocritical. First, take the beam out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of the eye of your neighbor.", and "Let anyone who is among you that is without sin cast the first stone at her."

And his followers said:

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

Jesus' message was completely different from Yahweh's. Use quotes from Jesus that show that he was racist or whatever else you want to claim. Jesus wasn't Yahweh, and he didn't preach Yahweh's message.

theist · February 2, 2008

What the negative section never seems to realize is that the Old Testament was written by Hebrews from a Hebrew-centric viewpoint and with all it's accompaning prejudices that we held by the writter.

I don't for one second believe everything that says "Thus saith the Lord" was actually spoken by the Lord. The atrocities upon other peoples that are written down as being done under the will of Yahweh have more in common with Al-Qaida and ilk like Bin-Laden then they do of transcendental scripture.

Anybody can write anything and claim it was told to them by God. Only fools follow such people. And only fools try to hold God responsible for the actions done "in His name" by such illusioned fanatics.

raghu · February 2, 2008

The title of this thread is "Vaisnava Bible Study - Is Jesus Vaisnava?" Accordingly, we will discuss both subjects, namely the study of the Bible from a Vaishnava perspective as well as the matter of Jesus's alleged identity as a "Vaishnava."

Many points have already been brought up refuting the latter, and beyond the usual ad hominem attacks and sentimental reasoning, no substantial reasoning or evidence has been provided by the new-age/iskcon purva-pakshins to support it. I will therefore revisit that subject after discussing the first matter - namely the Bible from a Vaishnava perspective, and more specifically the Biblical "God" from a Vaishnava perspective. I will continue to provide exact references with due regard to context in the Bible (including the Old Testament) that show how this "God" behaves in ways that are completely out of character for a devotee of Vishnu or even Sri Vishnu Himself.

Another example of this occurs in Exodus 32.27-35. It is explained here how the Israelites finally reach Mt Sinai, and becoming impatient with Moses' long absence, they fashion an icon of a golden calf and start worshipping it. God threatens to kill all of them for this behavior and only relents when Moses convince him to. Then we have the following:

Then he said to them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.' "The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. Then Moses said, "You have been set apart to the LORD today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day."

The next day Moses said to the people, "You have committed a great sin. But now I will go up to the LORD; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin."

So Moses went back to the LORD and said, "Oh, what a great sin these people have committed! They have made themselves gods of gold. But now, please forgive their sin—but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written."

The LORD replied to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book. Now go, lead the people to the place I spoke of, and my angel will go before you. However, when the time comes for me to punish, I will punish them for their sin." And the LORD struck the people with a plague because of what they did with the calf Aaron had made.

From the above, we can clearly see that the Biblical "God" uses wanton violence to ensure purity of his religious teachings, which forbid idol (or icon) worship of any kind. Some misinformed iskconites may try to compare this to Sri Krishna ordering Arjuna to fight in the Battle of Kurukshetra, but this comparison is not valid for the following reasons:

1 - The people who died in Kurukshetra war were kshatriyas - fighting for them was a matter of duty and they were required to fight on behalf of their leige. By contrast, the Israelites were non-combatants and former slaves who had followed Moses on the promise that their "God" would free the from captivity.

2 - The Kurukshetra war was being fought to uproot a corrupt king who was guilty of usurping the throne, attempted murder, and conspiracy to commit rape. Many warriors lost their lives in the ensuing battle, but there is no record of any civilians or non-combatants being targetted. Even those warriors who were slain all got liberation (if you believe the testimony of the Bhagavata). By contrast, the slaughter of 3000 Hebrews was ordered by the Biblical "God" because the Hebrews lost faith in their "God" and turned to "idol worship." And this "God" does not grant them salvation; he vindictively writes them out of his plan for the Israelites.

3 - While Sri Krishna clearly does not agree with anya-deva worship, He does not command anyone to take up arms against someone solely because they are not His devotees. Why should He, when He is very clear that anya-devata worship leads to different results? But the Biblical "God" is very jealous of his position and will not co-exist with any other religious beliefs, right or wrong.

HerServant · February 2, 2008

The title of this thread is "Vaisnava Bible Study - Is Jesus Vaisnava?" Accordingly, we will discuss both subjects, namely the study of the Bible from a Vaishnava perspective as well as the matter of Jesus's alleged identity as a "Vaishnava." ... ....

Krsnadaasa Kaviraja lists the following twenty-six good qualities of a Vaisnava:

(1) He is very kind to everyone.

(2) He does not make anyone his enemy.

(3) He is truthful.

(4) He is equal to everyone.

(5) No one can find any fault in him.

(6) He is magnanimous.

(7) He is mild.

(8) He is always clean.

(9) He is without possessions.

(10) He works for everyone's benefit.

(11) He is very peaceful.

(12) He is always surrendered to Krsna.

(13) He has no material desires.

(14) He is very meek.

(15) He is steady.

(16) He controls his senses.

(17) He does not eat more than required.

(18) He is not influenced by the Lord's illusory energy.

(19) He offers respect to everyone.

(20) He does not desire any respect for himself.

(21) He is very grave.

(22) He is merciful.

(23) He is friendly.

(24) He is poetic.

(25) He is expert.

(26) He is silent." [srimad-Bhagavatam 5.18.12 Purport]

Hare Krsna! Jesu Ki Jaya!

HerServant · February 2, 2008

The title of this thread is "Vaisnava Bible Study - Is Jesus Vaisnava?" Accordingly, we will discuss both subjects, namely the study of the Bible from a Vaishnava perspective as well as the matter of Jesus's alleged identity as a "Vaishnava.

Hmmm .. on another thread you posted:

Krishna Consciousness is Consciousness of Krishna!

I am ready to accept your initiation now.

- Source: http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/spiritual-discussions/445271-what-krishna-consciousness-3.html

This implies you are not an initiated Vaisnava. Are you?

raghu · February 2, 2008

Hmmm .. on another thread you posted:

- Source: http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/spiritual-discussions/445271-what-krishna-consciousness-3.html

This implies you are not an initiated Vaisnava. Are you?

I am initiated, and that post was obviously a light-hearted jab. I'm not sure how it implies that I am not initiated, but then again like gHari's I find your thought process rather disconnected and difficult to follow.

RadheRade1657 · February 2, 2008

What the negative section never seems to realize is that the Old Testament was written by Hebrews from a Hebrew-centric viewpoint and with all it's accompaning prejudices that we held by the writter.

I don't for one second believe everything that says "Thus saith the Lord" was actually spoken by the Lord. The atrocities upon other peoples that are written down as being done under the will of Yahweh have more in common with Al-Qaida and ilk like Bin-Laden then they do of transcendental scripture.

Anybody can write anything and claim it was told to them by God. Only fools follow such people. And only fools try to hold God responsible for the actions done "in His name" by such illusioned fanatics.

That's exactly what I've been saying! Notice that he hasn't replied to either of my posts yet?

Hare Krsna!

theist · February 2, 2008

That's exactly what I've been saying! Notice that he hasn't replied to either of my posts yet?
Hare Krsna!

Sorry, I haven't been keeping up on this thread very closely. Glad to see we are on the same page.

Those books of the Old Testament where authored at different times by different men and can not be seen as a whole although there is a common theme.

In Genesis we read that mankind was given a VEGAN diet by the ELOHIM, translated as God. Then in another book it specifies what animals can be killed for food and which ones not to touch.

In one book there are detailed proscriptions on animal sacrifice and another book it says killing an ox is the same as killing a man and that animal sacrifices are not an abomination to God.

And they all claim "Thus saith the Lord".

This guy ragu is simply a disturbance. He only wants to argue.

RadheRade1657 · February 3, 2008

Sorry, I haven't been keeping up on this thread very closely. Glad to see we are on the same page.

Those books of the Old Testament where authored at different times by different men and can not be seen as a whole although there is a common theme.

In Genesis we read that mankind was given a VEGAN diet by the ELOHIM, translated as God. Then in another book it specifies what animals can be killed for food and which ones not to touch.

In one book there are detailed proscriptions on animal sacrifice and another book it says killing an ox is the same as killing a man and that animal sacrifices are not an abomination to God.

And they all claim "Thus saith the Lord".

This guy ragu is simply a disturbance. He only wants to argue.

I totally agree. I've read the Bible... Jesus' message is completely different from Yahweh's. Have you ever heard of the Gnostic Christians? They believed in Jesus, but they didn't believe in Yahweh. I especially like the sect called the Manichaens (mostly b/c they honored the Buddha, and I have such great respect for Him).

Radhe Radhe!

gHari · February 3, 2008

The Srimad-Bhagavatam glorifies the incarnation of Parasurama:

2.7.22

kSatraM kSayAya vidhinopabhRtaM mahAtmA

brahma-dhrug ujjhita-pathaM narakArti-lipsu

uddhanty asAv avanikaNTakam ugra-vIryas

triH-sapta-kRtva urudhAra-parazvadhena

</center>

kSatram--the royal order; kSayAya--for the sake of diminishing; vidhinA--by destination; upabhRtam--increased in proportion; mahAtmA--the Lord in the form of the great sage ParazurAma; brahma-dhruk--the ultimate truth in Brahman; ujjhita-patham--those who have given up the path of the Absolute Truth; naraka-Arti-lipsu--desirous to suffer pain in hell; uddhanti--exacts; asau--all those; avanikaNTakam--thorns of the world; ugra-vIryaH--awfully powerful; triH-sapta--thrice seven times; kRtvaH--performed; urudhAra--very sharp; parazvadhena--by the great chopper.

When the ruling administrators, who are known as the kSatriyas, turned astray from the path of the Absolute Truth, being desirous to suffer in hell, the Lord, in His incarnation as the sage ParazurAma, uprooted those unwanted kings, who appeared as the thorns of the earth. Thus He thrice seven times uprooted the kSatriyas with His keenly sharpened chopper.

9.15.14

yam Ahur vAsudevAMzaM

haihayAnAM kulAntakam

triH-sapta-kRtvo ya imAM

cakre niHkSatriyAM mahIm

</center>

yam--whom (ParazurAma); AhuH--all the learned scholars say; vAsudeva-aMzam--an incarnation of VAsudeva, the Supreme Personality of Godhead; haihayAnAm--of the Haihayas; kula-antakam--the annihilator of the dynasty; triH-sapta-kRtvaH--twenty-one times; yaH--who (ParazurAma); imAm--this; cakre--made; niHkSatriyAm--devoid of kSatriyas; mahIm--the earth.

Learned scholars accept this ParazurAma as the celebrated incarnation of VAsudeva who annihilated the dynasty of KArtavIrya. ParazurAma killed all the kSatriyas on earth twenty-one times.

9.15.15

dRptaM kSatraM bhuvo bhAram

abrahmaNyam anInazat

rajas-tamo-vRtam ahan

phalguny api kRte 'Mhasi

</center>

dRptam--very proud; kSatram--the kSatriyas, the ruling class; bhuvaH--of the earth; bhAram--burden; abrahmaNyam--sinful, not caring for the religious principles enunciated by the brAhmaNas; anInazat--drove away or annihilated; rajaH-tamaH--by the qualities of passion and ignorance; vRtam--covered; ahan--he killed; phalguni--not very great; api--although; kRte--had been committed; aMhasi--an offense.

When the royal dynasty, being excessively proud because of the material modes of passion and ignorance, became irreligious and ceased to care for the laws enacted by the brAhmaNas, ParazurAma killed them. Although their offense was not very severe, he killed them to lessen the burden of the world.

9.15.16

kiM tad aMho bhagavato

rAjanyair ajitAtmabhiH

kRtaM yena kulaM naSTaM

kSatriyANAm abhIkSNazaH

</center>

zrI-rAjA uvAca--MahArAja ParIkSit inquired; kim--what; tat aMhaH--that offense; bhagavataH--unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead; rAjanyaiH--by the royal family; ajita-AtmabhiH--who could not control their senses and thus were degraded; kRtam--which had been done; yena--by which; kulam--the dynasty; naSTam--was annihilated; kSatriyANAm--of the royal family; abhIkSNazaH--again and again.

King ParIkSit inquired from Sukadeva GosvAmI: What was the offense that the kSatriyas who could not control their senses committed before Lord ParazurAma, the incarnation of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, for which the Lord annihilated the kSatriya dynasty again and again?

9.15.30

acodayad dhasti-rathAzva-pattibhir

gadAsi-bANarSTi-zataghni-zaktibhiH

akSauhiNIH sapta-dazAtibhISaNAs

tA rAma eko bhagavAn asUdayat

</center>

acodayat--he sent for fighting; hasti--with elephants; ratha--with chariots; azva--with horses; pattibhiH--and with infantry; gadA--with clubs; asi--with swords; bANa--with arrows; RSTi--with the weapons called RSTis; zataghni--with weapons called zataghnis; zaktibhiH--with weapons called zaktis; akSauhiNIH--whole groups of akSauhiNIs, military phalanx consisting of 21,870 chariots and elephants, 109,350 infantry soldiers and 65,610 horses; sapta-daza--seventeen; ati-bhISaNAH--very fierce; tAH--all of them; rAmaH--Lord ParazurAma; ekaH--alone; bhagavAn--the Supreme Personality of Godhead; asUdayat--killed.

Upon seeing ParazurAma, KArtavIryArjuna immediately feared him and sent many elephants, chariots, horses and infantry soldiers equipped with clubs, swords, arrows, RSTis, zataghnis, zaktis, and many similar weapons to fight against him. KArtavIryArjuna sent seventeen full akSauhiNIs of soldiers to check ParazurAma. But Lord ParazurAma alone killed all of them.

9.15.31

yato yato 'sau praharat-parazvadho

mano-'nilaujAH para-cakra-sUdanaH

tatas tataz chinna-bhujoru-kandharA

nipetur urvyAM hata-sUta-vAhanAH

</center>

yataH--wherever; yataH--wherever; asau--Lord ParazurAma; praharat--slashing; parazvadhaH--being expert in using his weapon, the parazu, or chopper; manaH--like the mind; anila--like the wind; ojAH--being forceful; para-cakra--of the enemies' military strength; sUdanaH--killer; tataH--there; tataH--and there; chinna--scattered and cut off; bhuja--arms; Uru--legs; kandharAH--shoulders; nipetuH--fell down; urvyAm--on the ground; hata--killed; sUta--chariot drivers; vAhanAH--carrier horses and elephants.

Lord ParazurAma, being expert in killing the military strength of the enemy, worked with the speed of the mind and the wind, slicing his enemies with his chopper [parazu]. Wherever he went, the enemies fell, their legs, arms and shoulders being severed, their chariot drivers killed, and their carriers, the elephants and horses all annihilated.

9.15.32

dRSTvA sva-sainyaM rudhiraugha-kardame

raNAjire rAma-kuThAra-sAyakaiH

vivRkNa-varma-dhvaja-cApa-vigrahaM

nipAtitaM haihaya Apatad ruSA

</center>

dRSTvA--by seeing; sva-sainyam--his own soldiers; rudhira-ogha-kardame--which had become muddy due to the flow of blood; raNa-ajire--on the battlefield; rAma-kuThAra--by the axe of Lord ParazurAma; sAyakaiH--and by the arrows; vivRkNa--scattered; varma--the shields; dhvaja--the flags; cApa--bows; vigraham--the bodies; nipAtitam--fallen; haihayaH--KArtavIryArjuna; Apatat--forcefully came there; ruSA--being very angry.

By manipulating his axe and arrows, Lord ParazurAma cut to pieces the shields, flags, bows and bodies of KArtavIryArjuna's soldiers, who fell on the battlefield, muddying the ground with their blood. Seeing these reverses, KArtavIryArjuna, infuriated, rushed to the battlefield.

9.16.17

gatvA mAhiSmatIM rAmo

brahma-ghna-vihata-zriyam

teSAM sa zIrSabhI rAjan

madhye cakre mahA-girim

</center>

gatvA--going; mAhiSmatIm--to the place known as MAhiSmatI; rAmaH--Lord ParazurAma; brahma-ghna--because of the killing of a brAhmaNa; vihata-zriyam--doomed, bereft of all opulences; teSAm--of all of them (the sons of KArtavIryArjuna and the other kSatriya inhabitants); saH--he, Lord ParazurAma; zIrSabhiH--by the heads cut off from their bodies; rAjan--O MahArAja ParIkSit; madhye--within the jurisdiction of MAhiSmatI; cakre--made; mahA-girim--a great mountain.

O King, Lord ParazurAma then went to MAhiSmatI, which was already doomed by the sinful killing of a brAhmaNa. In the midst of that city he made a mountain of heads, severed from the bodies of the sons of KArtavIryArjuna.

9.18-19

tad-raktena nadIM ghorAm

abrahmaNya-bhayAvahAm

hetuM kRtvA pitR-vadhaM

kSatre 'maGgala-kAriNi

triH-sapta-kRtvaH pRthivIM

kRtvA niHkSatriyAM prabhuH

samanta-paJcake cakre

zoNitodAn hradAn nava

</center>

tat-raktena--by the blood of the sons of KArtavIryArjuna; nadIm--a river; ghorAm--fierce; abrahmaNya-bhaya-AvahAm--causing fear to the kings who had no respect for brahminical culture; hetum--cause; kRtvA--accepting; pitR-vadham--the killing of his father; kSatre--when the whole royal class; amaGgala-kAriNi--was acting very inauspiciously; triH-sapta-kRtvaH--twenty-one times; pRthivIm--the entire world; kRtvA--making; niHkSatriyAm--without a kSatriya dynasty; prabhuH--the Supreme Lord, ParazurAma; samanta-paJcake--at the place known as Samanta-paJcaka; cakre--he made; zoNita-udAn--filled with blood instead of water; hradAn--lakes; nava--nine.

With the blood of the bodies of these sons, Lord ParazurAma created a ghastly river, which brought great fear to the kings who had no respect for brahminical culture. Because the kSatriyas, the men of power in government, were performing sinful activities, Lord ParazurAma, on the plea of retaliating for the murder of his father, rid all the kSatriyas from the face of the earth twenty-one times. Indeed, in the place known as Samanta-paJcaka he created nine lakes filled with their blood.

9.16.26

Aste 'dyApi mahendrAdrau

nyasta-daNDaH prazAnta-dhIH

upagIyamAna-caritaH

siddha-gandharva-cAraNaiH

</center>

Aste--is still existing; adya api--even now; mahendra-adrau--in the hilly country known as Mahendra; nyasta-daNDaH--having given up the weapons of a kSatriya (the bow, arrows and axe); prazAnta--now fully satisfied as a brAhmaNa; dhIH--in such intelligence; upagIyamAna-caritaH--being worshiped and adored for his exalted character and activities; siddha-gandharva-cAraNaiH--by such celestial persons as the inhabitants of Gandharvaloka, Siddhaloka and CAraNaloka.

Lord ParazurAma still lives as an intelligent brAhmaNa in the mountainous country known as Mahendra. Completely satisfied, having given up all the weapons of a kSatriya, he is always worshiped, adored and offered prayers for his exalted character and activities by such celestial beings as the Siddhas, CAraNas and Gandharvas.

9.16.27

evaM bhRguSu vizvAtmA

bhagavAn harir IzvaraH

avatIrya paraM bhAraM

bhuvo 'han bahuzo nRpAn

</center>

evam--in this way; bhRguSu--in the dynasty of BhRgu; vizva-AtmA--the soul of the universe, the Supersoul; bhagavAn--the Supreme Personality of Godhead; hariH--the Lord; IzvaraH--the supreme controller; avatIrya--appearing as an incarnation; param--great; bhAram--the burden; bhuvaH--of the world; ahan--killed; bahuzaH--many times; nRpAn--kings.

In this way the supreme soul, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the Lord and the supreme controller, descended as an incarnation in the BhRgu dynasty and released the universe from the burden of undesirable kings by killing them many times.

Jahnava Nitai Das · February 3, 2008

In one book there are detailed proscriptions on animal sacrifice and another book it says killing an ox is the same as killing a man and that animal sacrifices are not an abomination to God.

"He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man..."

This is a very misquoted verse among devotees. I'm not sure who started it, but I saw a booklet printed by Rohini Kumar (ex-swami) around 1986 to 1990 where he took verses from the bible that were against meat eating, and in there he had this quote. He may have gotten it from Hansadutta, because he was into the bible and wanted to write a commentary on it.

The entire verse reads as follows, and if one reads it logically and in context it doesnt say anything against killing animals:

"Thus says the LORD, "Heaven is My throne and the earth is My footstool. Where then is a house you could build for Me? And where is a place that I may rest?

"For My hand made all these things, Thus all these things came into being," declares the LORD. "But to this one I will look, To him who is humble and contrite of spirit, and who trembles at My word.

"He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog's neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine's blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. So I will choose their punishments And will bring on them what they dread. Because I called, but no one answered; I spoke, but they did not listen. And they did evil in My sight And chose that in which I did not delight."

To me the verse doesnt say killing an ox is wrong, anymore than it says burning incense is wrong. It is spoken against those who offer sacrifices to God while not having faith in him. The sacrifice of ox, lamb, incense and oblations were fully accepted by the God of the bible, but if you didnt have faith then your offering of incense, an ox, or a lamb was sinful. So it all had to do with whether you had proper faith in God.

These same sacrifices which God is now condemning were ordained by God himself (in the bible). And later (in many places) he advises his people to offer flesh sacrifices to him. So this verse really has nothing to do with whether or not it is wrong to kill an ox.

As far as the old testiment, when reading it I don't see much sign of transcendental knowledge. This is just my opinion and everyone has the right to believe what they like. But to me it reads like some tribal people with a lot of hatred against other races and tribes. Such books can be found in any culture. In Kali yuga people hate each other, discriminate against each other and fight amongst each other, usually while invoking the name of "God" to justify their actions. The losers in history did the same thing (such as other pagan religions in europe). If they had won the wars their religion would have similar stories of God ordering them to kill the non believers and of God punishing their enemies.

I also don't see any reason to consider the bible to be the word of God. It was manipulated and more or less written by corrupt popes and fallible men. They borrowed some good things from Jesus, and thats why there is some hint of humanity in the teachings today. The teachings of Jesus were completely different from what God taught in the old testiment. The hatred was gone and there was a new message of love and compassion. The corrupt popes hijacked this popular teaching and then created something they called the bible, while selling tickets to heaven and becoming rich. I don't see anything transcendental or spiritual in their history with the exception of Jesus and a few rare saintly people.

The bible was more or less a product of corrupt leaders. So I don't consider it the word of God, even though there are probably some spiritual things they have stolen from saintly people and included in the mix.

Regardless of its validity, the bible and Christianity has created some of the most civilized and humanitarian people in modern times, something we don't find much of in India even with the greatest philosophy. So for that I have a lot of respect for them. In India and other third world places like Africa, people getting burnt alive, hacked to death, etc., are daily occurences by the hundreds and thousands. There is a lack of respect for human life, and there is a lot of inner hatred towards fellow man. In modern (usually Christian) countries, such things don't occur because people are more civilized and have respect for human life. There are so many other faults in western civilization (like animal slaughter), but I see some things that we can learn from them as well. And over all I dont see a practicing utopia anywhere in the world, in any of the religions being taught.

Ashvatama · February 3, 2008

"As far as the old testiment, when reading it I don't see much sign of transcendental knowledge. This is just my opinion and everyone has the right to believe what they like. But to me it reads like some tribal people with a lot of hatred against other races and tribes. Such books can be found in any culture. In Kali yuga people hate each other, discriminate against each other and fight amongst each other, usually while invoking the name of "God" to justify their actions. The losers in history did the same thing (such as other pagan religions in europe). If they had won the wars their religion would have similar stories of God ordering them to kill the non believers and of God punishing their enemies..

All primitive cultures are coming up from the evolutionary process on this material gross planet, where the soul eventually again receives human form. Because it is inherent in human nature (because ALL living entities are in there baddha-jivas condition of forgettful consciousness while in the material creation of Maha-Vishnu), these human tribes, coming up through the lower biological species or life, develop their own speculative beliefs in a God when they attain the earthly human primitive body.

On the other hand there is Knowledge (Veda) that comes down to this planet from the demigods from the celestial levels of material existence (the sub-space heavenly planets). Even still a part of the material universes, the Veda has been passed down like this to our planet.

The beginning of Kali-yuga is where the human tribes, born from coming up from the lower species and the celestial beings who came down from the heavenly planets who followed the Vedas, crossed paths.

This was only possible due to the Dvapara-yuga being degraded into the beginning of Kali-yuga that allowed the lowly 'planet tribes' to invade and be eventually be influenced by of the 'more celestial beings that followed the Vedas. This is why Sanskrit Is the language of the demigods.

Also Satya-yuga. Tretta-yuga and the most of the Dvapara, even though on this planet, were more celestial than earthly and existed in the sky of this planet on not on the surface. There were mystical powers, huge cities floating in the air at the same time the biological evolutionary process was going on the floor of the planet that the 'celestials Vedic universal travellers' left alone.

This is why no evidence is found of the Satya, Tretta or Dvapara-yuga’s (except towards the end of Dvapara when it has virtually been degraded down to the planets surface).

Then Krishna came right at the very end of Dvapara-yuga, then after the battle at Kurukshetra the Kali-yuga began and the invasion of the annoying primitive animal like barbaric human tribes had evolved enough to plunder the remanets of what was left from the Vedic culture and in the process adapting to many practises, from cooking to prayer that gradually influenced many 'wordly' primitive cultures.

Vaisnava Bible Study - Is Jesus Vaisnava?

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