HerServant Posted January 25, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 No, the topic was raised because certain individuals with less-than-ethical motives continue to propagate a falsehood about Jesus' identity for the sole purpose of winning Western converts and increasing their sect's numbers. It is only because the claims are so utterly devoid of logic and reason that their proponents must resort to accusations of hatred and bigotry in order to conceal their tracks from those who question them. This is a rather shocking comment raghu. It is certainly offensive to the Lord unless you in fact are a perfectly realized soul or the Lord Himself. Your first sentence "No the topic was raised because certain individuals with less-than-ethical motives ..." is directed at me since I was the person who started this thread. Can you see in my heart? You know my motives? The Witness of the human heart is God Himself. I have posted over 300 times here and I would like you to show a single reference that I am trying to convert anyone. (It seems odd that you have posted here only 45 times or so, yet have been a member since 2003 ..) I express my experiences of the Vaisnava literatures from a Christian perspective because that is my background. I share what I know and try not to speculate. I always try to present my realizations respectfully and have never criticized (to my recollection) anyone on this forum. I even love those with different views because I see that God cannot be bound by the limited speculation of a human mind. His Glories are unlimited and no person can comprehend them all. Therefore, I am not exactly sure why you are so angry?. The sun is shining. God is love. I hope you have a nice day. Om Shanti. Hare Krsna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 I do not see you as a dog, but if you see yourself as one I have no objects and I doubt anyone else will object. But yes the caravan keeps rolling in spite if your immature assertions and your bow-wows. You and your little buddy have been saying the same thing over and over on several threads ad nauseum now for weeks. And you are hardly the first Indian Hindus who have taken on the role of "protecting the Hindu dharma" from us low class people found outside of India. There seems to be a regular flow. But you can see how boring it all must be for us. For all the time here neither you or ragu have said anything directly spiritual or inspiring anyone to seek God. It is perfectly fine that you don't accept Jesus in the way many of us do. That is your business. But to proseltyze your point of view in the face oif those that have expressed a desire to not agree with you shows what immature and fanatical people you are. We don't tolerate Christian or Muslim fanatics here well either. A Christian or Muslim who blasphemes Krsna is shown the door post haste. Did you not see the sign posted at the door no fanatics allowed. Now on the opposite extreme perhaps you have noticed our nice new Buddhist friend who while holding different philosophical views from us has made himself by his advanced qualities in discourse a most welcome addition to Audarya Fellowship. Try his approach next time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matarisvan Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 You and your little buddy have been saying the same thing over and over on several threads ad nauseum now for weeks.... ..which is nothing considering you and your little buddies have been blowing the "Jesus was a Vaishnava/Vaishnavas are not Hindus" horn for years. And you are hardly the first Indian Hindus who have taken on the role of "protecting the Hindu dharma" from us low class people found outside of India. There seems to be a regular flow. But you can see how boring it all must be for us... Well...we are not here to entertain you and can do nothing about your boredom. We are here simply because people like yourself make distorted and incorrect claims of Hinduism and Vaishnavism with an arrogant tone. We are clearing up the false web you have ben spinning by providing objective evidence to support our corrections. Too bad for you that your little barks and other condescending remarks did not deter us as you hoped. Now on the opposite extreme perhaps you have noticed our nice new Buddhist friend who while holding different philosophical views from us has made himself by his advanced qualities in discourse a most welcome addition to Audarya Fellowship. And once again you are kidding yourself. Try saying the following things to your buddhist friend and see how he responds back. 1. The Buddha was in reality a Vaishnava 2. The Buddha was a Vishnu avatar who came to preach false philosophy 3. Buddhism is not a real religion as it is a combination of several different beliefs (you tried this little ploy with Hinduism) 4. Buddhists are atheists atheists are demons..therefore Buddhists are demons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 Read the thread. Everyone is quite candid about our differences yet we remain respectful. Anyway to be honest I have no desire to talk with you or your little buddy. Bye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raghu Posted January 26, 2008 Report Share Posted January 26, 2008 This is a rather shocking comment raghu. It's not shocking. It's just true. It is certainly offensive to the Lord unless you in fact are a perfectly realized soul or the Lord Himself. You iskcon types claim that everything is offensive to the Lord when it disagrees with your quaint theories. You insist that someone must be a "perfectly realized soul" in order to dare to disagree with you, and yet despite not being a "perfectly realized soul" yourself you continue to manufacture one fairy tale after another. Your first sentence "No the topic was raised because certain individuals with less-than-ethical motives ..." is directed at me since I was the person who started this thread. Yes, it was directed to you, because in your desperation to conceal the fact that you are propagating a lie, you resorted to baseless accusations of hatred. Can you see in my heart? You know my motives? The Witness of the human heart is God Himself. Unlike you, I don't have to care about your motives. The bottom line is that your Jesus theories are just "mental speculation" with not even a hint of evidence to support them. No amount of crying is going to change that, and if you had even a modicum of intellectual honesty, you would stop trying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murali_Mohan_das Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 Unlike you, I don't have to care about your motives. The bottom line is that your Jesus theories are just "mental speculation" with not even a hint of evidence to support them. No amount of crying is going to change that, and if you had even a modicum of intellectual honesty, you would stop trying. Ruff!!! Ruffff!!! Scratch, scratch. Sniff butt. Do you also claim that Srila Prabhupada was a mental speculator? It's a shame you are not more taken by Vaishnavism, raghu. It's a shame you act like just another gunda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HerServant Posted January 29, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 No, the topic was raised because certain individuals with less-than-ethical motives continue to propagate a falsehood about Jesus' identity for the sole purpose of winning Western converts and increasing their sect's numbers. It is only because the claims are so utterly devoid of logic and reason that their proponents must resort to accusations of hatred and bigotry in order to conceal their tracks from those who question them. Afraid of "Western conversions" (to Jesus)? Afraid of Jesus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shvu Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 Ruff!!! Ruffff!!! Scratch, scratch. Sniff butt. First theist, now you. What is with this canine behavior that has been on display recently by our distinguished members? Would it have anything to do with the unusually cold weather in CA recently? Perhaps a quick vacation to Cancun or Cozumel will fix you up. Do you also claim that Srila Prabhupada was a mental speculator? Common sense says making tall claims without evidence to back them up would qualify one as a mental speculator. Of course, this should be obvious by now after over a hundred posts on the subject. I am surprised that you are raising this question at this point. Where were thou hiding all this time? It's a shame you are not more taken by Vaishnavism, raghu. It's a shame you act like just another gunda. And the alternate dictionary grows in size by the day! Its a damn shame alright. First you distort the meaning of the term Vaishnava and now it appears you are ought to redefine the term Gunda. New meaning of Gunda: Anyone who does not agree with the new meaning of Vaishnava coined by Prabhupada and his supporters of Christian backgrounds. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raghu Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 Afraid of "Western conversions" (to Jesus)? Trouble writing in complete sentences (Her Servant)? Given up claiming that anyone who disagrees with you is ipso facto "offensive to the Lord?" Afraid of Jesus? History has shown that one man with an idea, even a misguided man with a wrong idea, can inspire millions to destroy in his name. So yes, when I see his followers writing derogatory commentaries on our scriptures that form the basis of academic Indology, lobbying for the right to legally steal money from Hindu temples and use it to fund hate-propaganda against Hindus, and auctioning off sacred Vaishnava sites of pilgrimmage for the purpose of building churches, I have to admit that I'm a bit concerned about it. But I suppose you would white-wash this sort of cultural destruction as a "conversion" to a simpler form of Vaishnavism, now wouldn't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 So it was about money. That's why you never even tried to understand what Christ's message was. Integrity can be purchased. Cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HerServant Posted January 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 Trouble writing in complete sentences (Her Servant)? Given up claiming that anyone who disagrees with you is ipso facto "offensive to the Lord?" And where did I make such a claim? History has shown that one man with an idea, even a misguided man with a wrong idea, can inspire millions to destroy in his name. So yes, when I see his followers writing derogatory commentaries on our scriptures that form the basis of academic Indology, lobbying for the right to legally steal money from Hindu temples and use it to fund hate-propaganda against Hindus, and auctioning off sacred Vaishnava sites of pilgrimmage for the purpose of building churches, I have to admit that I'm a bit concerned about it. But I suppose you would white-wash this sort of cultural destruction as a "conversion" to a simpler form of Vaishnavism, now wouldn't you? I'm not concerned because I have faith in God and God has a plan. I've always believed in respect of others tradition and cultures. I started this threads as a means to discuss Christian perspective on Vedic scripture and investigate Vaisnava opinion on "Jesus as Vaisnava". For quite some time, one may find many books where Hindus have commented on Jesus, the Bible and the Gospels: http://www.amazon.com/Sermon-Mount-According-Vedanta-Prabhavananda/dp/0874810507 https://www.srfbooks.com/Item.asp?id=3238 The Yoga of Jesus - https://www.srfbooks.com/Item.asp?id=3446 CHRIST THE SAVIOUR AND CHRIST MYTH (A CRITICAL STUDY) - http://www.ramakrishnavedantamath.org/puli2.html Woman: How do you explain the fact that Jesus said that “I am the way, the truth, and the light,” and that “No man comes to the father but by me”? Prabhup?da: What is that? Hm? Madhudvi?a: She’s asking how can we explain that Jesus said he is the only way? Prabhup?da: Yes, he is the only way. We also admit. Because he is the representative of God, so if you want to approach God, you must approach through His representative. That is His version. “I am the only representative of God,” then you have to reach God through him, that is fact --- - 740701LE.MEL So I am merely soliciting sincere Vaisnava perspective on the topic for a "Spiritual Discussion" .. the main subject of this Forum. Sorry you are so angry about my thread. Maybe you could put a socio-political thread in the "Main Forums" section to discuss cultural identity issues. Have a nice day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 The only way to stop the offenses of the Christians is to make them good Christians. Then I guess it follows that the only way to stop the offenses of the Vaishnavas is to make them good Vaishnavas. Somehow we have to get them all beyond the words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suchandra Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 The Hidden Story of Jesus <small>Submitted by kmdasa on January 25, 2008 - 2:59pm.</small> by Kripamoya das Dear Vaishnavas, Hare Krishna! Perhaps you missed this piece of thought-provoking television on Christmas Day, but here's a second opportunity to watch it. Channel 4 broadcast an extended documentary about the life of Jesus and how his life is viewed by other faith traditions, including ours. The researchers came to our Radha-Krishna temple in central London and were given lots of information and contact details of other expert sources to interview, both at the OCHS in Oxford and in Vrindavan, India. <embed flashvars="" src=" http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=-7956238808750388174&hl=en" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" id="VideoPlayback" style="width: 400px; height: 326px;"> Aired: December 25, 2007 on Channel 4 Duration: 1:40:53 Info: Theologian Dr Robert Beckford investigates amazing parallels to the Christ story in other faiths, some of them predating Christianity by thousands of years. The Hindu god, Krishna, was conceived by a virgin, and his birth was attended by angels, wise men, and shepherds. Buddha was also the result of a miraculous birth and visited by wise men bearing gifts. Beckford attempts to unravel the mystery of why there are so many versions of the Christ story across the world and asks which is the real one. Source: Link Personally, I think they treated Vaishnavism and devotion to Krishna with great sensitivity and the scenes of Vrindavan, kirtans and temples certainly contributed a sparkle to the film's first fifteen minutes. And for this to be shown on Christmas Day in the evening was definitely an exercise in adventurous and courageous programming. The narrator / interviewer of the film is himself a Christian, so the sub-text of the film, which we should also be aware of, is that Jesus Christ is such a figure that all the world's religions have some sort of an opinion on him. There is an attempt to highlight the commonality between all the faith traditions, something which is helpful in today's climate. Everything considered, this film will have helped some people to understand many helpful messages and perhaps, for some people, it will have been their very first exposure to kirtan and the Krishna tradition. At the very least, we must wonder at the phenomenon of Hare Krishna kirtan being broadcast to millions of homes in England on Christmas Day! Yours, Kripamoya das Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HerServant Posted January 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya! Thank you gHari and Suchandra May Krsna, the Loving Father of every living entity, through the Mercy of Balarama continue to bless you now and forever. Hare Krsna! Jesu Ki Jaya! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raghu Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 And where did I make such a claim? Short-term memory problems today? Let me jog your memory: <!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->"This is a rather shocking comment raghu. It is certainly offensive to the Lord unless you in fact are a perfectly realized soul or the Lord Himself." As I have pointed out in the past, invoking the term "offensive" is a favored ploy of iskcon cultists to discourage scrutiny of their views. And in regards to the organized attempts to wipe out Vaishnava and Hindu culture, you had this to say: I'm not concerned because I have faith in God and God has a plan. "All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing." And of course, to give excuses for why they choose to do nothing. I started this threads as a means to discuss Christian perspective on Vedic scripture and investigate Vaisnava opinion on "Jesus as Vaisnava". You've already received the opinion. "Jesus as Vaisnava" (sic) is not a feature of mainstream Vaishnavism. The only Vaishnavas who say that are iskcon Vaishnavas, and even their predecessors don't say that. Otherwise, Sri Vaishnavas don't say that. Tattvavadis don't say that, pre-Prabhupada, pre-Bhaktisiddhanta Gaudiya Vaishnavas don't say that, pushti-marg followers don't say that, etc etc. When you ask someone for their opinion, you should be prepared to hear it without flinging baseless accusations of prejudice when that opinion does not meet with your liking. Aside from Prabhupada, you quoted a few other Hindu sources on Jesus, but none of these are Vaishnava. All of them have in the common the same reason why Prabhupada said nice things about Jesus - they were all looking for converts from the Western world and wanted to say things that could enable Westerners to relate to whatever version of Hinduism they were propagating. One can hardly be considered objective in representing one's religion when one is willing to manufacture ideas for the sole purpose of enticing others to convert. Another way of saying this is "being honest is good, telling lies is bad." You can rail at me all you want, but at the end of the day the following remain indisputable facts: 1) There is no conclusive historical evidence that Jesus worshipped Vishnu or any known form of Vishnu. 2) There is no sastric evidence that attests to the identity of Jesus as a Vaishnava. 3) Christanity as we know it today bears no resemblance to any form of Vaishnavism. 4) The claim that today's Christianity is different from the so-called "real Christianity" is hampered by the lack of any historical evidence testifying as to what the real Christianity is. 5) The "God" of the Judeo-Christian tradition is, by their own accounts, a wrathful, mercurial, and jealous god. He has all personality traits that make him completely unlike Sr Vishnu. QED he is not Vishnu, but some other entity who was wrongly deified as a form of Vishnu. Sorry you are so angry about my thread. Maybe you could put a socio-political thread in the "Main Forums" section to discuss cultural identity issues. I admire your persistent (if not pathetic) attempts to come across as condescending to me. Suggestion - it is generally a good idea not to post snobby remarks at the very end of a post that is rife with flaky ideas and wishy-washy thinking. You want to at least come across as intelligent before you try to make someone feel bad. But that is just a suggestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 Good Sir, you wag your tongue, yet know not what Jesus taught. Is this not hypocrisy? First show me that you know what you are talking about, then maybe I will correct your drivel for you. You do not deserve to hold an opinion. A wise man knows when he is not qualified. A fool speaks loudly like a drunk in total illusion. Even the most naive Christian can see that you are a fool - will they accept Vishnu too as a fool? Or hopefully will they think "this man has nothing to do with Vishnu"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raghu Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 The Old Testament (specifically the Book of Exodus 4:24-26) describes how "God" arbitrarily decided to kill the son of Moses, changing his mind only when the boy's mother circumcised him on the spot with a piece of flint and no anesthesia (ouch!). At a lodging place on the way the LORD met him and sought to put him to death. Then Zipporah took a flint and cut off her son’s foreskin and touched Moses’ feet with it and said, "Surely you are a bridegroom of blood to me!" So he let him alone. It was then that she said, "A bridegroom of blood," because of the circumcision. This is the "god" that our iskcon friends would have us believe is another form of Sri Vishnu. Does Sri Krishna behave in such cruel and whimsical ways? To me, this is just one of many Biblical examples about the personality of the Biblical god that make it hard to believe that he is the same as Lord Krishna. I am providing this for your information only. Feel free to examine the evidence and draw your own conclusions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 If you are honest you will find many similar events in the Vedas which seem cruel from a mundane perspective. What is His ontological position as established by Yahweh? What is His ontological position as established by Christ? What is the ontological position established by Krishna? What did Jesus teach? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AncientMariner Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 If you are honest you will find many similar events in the Vedas which seem cruel from a mundane perspective. What did Jesus teach? Jesus changed the abrahamic peoples view of God into a loving father from a pissed off hierarch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raghu Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 The Old Testament (Exodus 7.2-5) also describes how "God" will punish the people of Egypt. He states that he will make Pharaoh refuse to listen to Moses, thus prompting he (God) to punish the people of Egypt in various ways. You shall speak all that I command you, and your brother Aaron shall tell Pharaoh to let the people of Israel go out of his land. But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt, Pharaoh will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and bring my hosts, my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great acts of judgment. The Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring out the people of Israel from among them." Moses and Aaron did so; they did just as the LORD commanded them. Now Moses was eighty years old, and Aaron eighty-three years old, when they spoke to Pharaoh. The punishments were as follows - turning the waters of the Nile into blood, the plague of frogs, gnats, flies, killing the Egyptian livestock, the plague of boils, hail, locusts, darkness, and then tops it off by killing all of the first-born children of Egypt. In each case, the texts make it clear that it was the people of Egypt who had to suffer from all of these punishments because Pharaoh's heart was hardened. It was also mentioned numerous times that the "Lord" himself hardened Pharaoh's heart, resulting in the various punishments up to and including the atrocity of killing the first-born children of Egypt. Does this "god" behave the way Sri Hari does? Does Sri Krishna manipulate people into defying Him so that He can send plagues into their houses and kill their children? Again, don't take my word for it - just read the text yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gHari Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 God ultimately arranges the fall of Kings into the bodies of worms in pig stool. Sickness, death, and a host of unpleasantness are required from time to time to perfect the soul. This world is no place for a gentleman. Are we to blame God for free will and the law of karma? Why do we sometimes remember Him and sometimes our hearts are hardened into forgetfulness? BG 15.15: <center> sarvasya cAhaM hRdi sanniviSTo mattaH smRtir jJAnam apohanaM ca vedaiz ca sarvair aham eva vedyo vedAnta-kRd veda-vid eva cAham </center> sarvasya--of all living beings; ca--and; aham--I; hRdi--in the heart; sanniviSTaH--situated; mattaH--from Me; smRtiH--remembrance; jJAnam--knowledge; apohanam--forgetfulness; ca--and; vedaiH--by the Vedas; ca--also; sarvaiH--all; aham--I am; eva--certainly; vedyaH--knowable; vedAnta-kRt--the compiler of the VedAnta; veda-vit--the knower of the Vedas; eva--certainly; ca--and; aham--I. I am seated in everyone's heart, and from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness. By all the Vedas, I am to be known. Indeed, I am the compiler of VedAnta, and I am the knower of the Vedas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raghu Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 Did Sri Krishna make Duryodhana refuse to give back the kingdom to Pandavas, and then send in the Pandavas to massacre women and children just to prove His superiority over all? Read for understanding and compare. "If you are honest you will find many similar events in the Vedas which seem cruel from a mundane perspective. Jihad sites are a good source" - local Vaishnava preacher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HerServant Posted January 31, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 You've already received the opinion. "Jesus as Vaisnava" (sic) is not a feature of mainstream Vaishnavism. OK. Now I understand. YOU must be a Vaisnava and one having knowledge of Christ's teachings, Vaisnava teachings, and comparisons between both. Can you tell us what branch of Vaisnavism you follow? Can you publish a link to your math or give us the name of your guru? Since I am a spiritual seeker, I would like to read about your guru and his lineage, and their spiritual writings. Please publish this so we can be fully enlightened. Thank you for sharing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AncientMariner Posted January 31, 2008 Report Share Posted January 31, 2008 OK. Now I understand. YOU must be a Vaisnava and one having knowledge of Christ's teachings, Vaisnava teachings, and comparisons between both. Can you tell us what branch of Vaisnavism you follow? Can you publish a link to your math or give us the name of your guru? Since I am a spiritual seeker, I would like to read about your guru and his lineage, and their spiritual writings. Please publish this so we can be fully enlightened. Thank you for sharing. Gotta admit I am curious for the same information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HerServant Posted February 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2008 Gotta admit I am curious for the same information. notice how fast this thread fell off the front page .. we are still waiting for the response hs and yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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