Vaisnava Bible Study - Is Jesus Vaisnava?

[raghu]

 

Okay... well, could you please point out where Jesus' message is corrupt? Not Yahweh's message, not the disciples' messages, but Jesus' message. Please, I beg you to point out something he says that is corrupt.

 

Is English not your first language? I said that his message had been "corrupted" - meaning, interpolated, adulterated, tainted, etc by the unauthorized interventions by other individuals down the ages. This is an undisputed fact, and even the iskcon intellgentsia on this very thread agreed with it.

 

QED the Bible is not a valid pramana and any religion based on such invalid pramanas is also invalid.

[raghu]

 

Does it occur to the Christians on this thread that their beliefs flow in the opposite direction?

 

You start with a self created image of God and using that as the baseline you are working your way backwards into the bible. Take this self created image and compare it with each reference to God in the bible. If the two are compatible, then it is the real message of God. If incompatible, then it is written by man and it is incorrect. Ultimately you are selectively interpreting the bible to pick what you like and reducing everything else as the words of man. What is the value in that?

 

Is Truth a function of personal preferences as the Christians here are making it out to be?

 

As you can see, Theist did not understand the real "purport" of your question. If my experience is any indication, no one else here will get it either, and they will just repeat more or less what Theist just wrote.

 

The problem is that they don't have any standard of determining valid knowledge - it's whatever they want it to be. They will even quote pramanas out of context that seem to support this "selective pick and choose" mentality. Actually, Theist just did that too.

[gHari]

The teachings of Jesus are not meant for the jnanis. His words are only for those who can hear them. The jnanis must choose another path.

 

Try the tattvavadis if it is your mind that you worship. They enjoy that sort of thing.

[raghu]

 

As you can see, Theist did not understand the real "purport" of your question. If my experience is any indication, no one else here will get it either, and they will just repeat more or less what Theist just wrote.

 

The problem is that they don't have any standard of determining valid knowledge - it's whatever they want it to be. They will even quote pramanas out of context that seem to support this "selective pick and choose" mentality. Actually, Theist just did that too.

 

And of course, someone who is comparably clueless will inevitably chime in with the "jnani" remark. This may sound odd to you, but they see that as an insult of sorts. To them, "jnani" means "mayavadi."

 

So, in essence, you and I are going to be called mayavadis because we have pointed out their inconsistency on determining correct knowledge from a given source. The corollary being that if you simply pick and choose what you want to be correct, and that too from a source of information you acknowledge to have been adulterated over the years, then you are a Vaishnava and not a mayavadi.

 

I know it doesn't make sense to you. Try standing upside down and then see how it looks.

[gHari]

The tattvavadis are the antithesis of mayavadis.

[gHari]

 

Okay... well, could you please point out where Jesus' message is corrupt? Not Yahweh's message, not the disciples' messages, but Jesus' message. Please, I beg you to point out something he says that is corrupt.

They do not know what Christ's message is. They have no integrity.

 

Even if they knew, they couldn't understand - just as they can't understand Krsna's message.

 

They will be stuck in their spinning minds for lifetimes, never being able to take the first step, constantly consumed with doubt.

[theist]

 

Is English not your first language? I said that his message had been "corrupted" - meaning, interpolated, adulterated, tainted, etc by the unauthorized interventions by other individuals down the ages. This is an undisputed fact, and even the iskcon intellgentsia on this very thread agreed with it.

 

QED the Bible is not a valid pramana and any religion based on such invalid pramanas is also invalid.

 

Dodge. Interpolation or corruption adulteration, tainted etc. still you must present the evidence for your statement schoolboy ("Is English not your first language?")

 

We are waiting with baited breath.

[LoveroftheBhagavata]

 

They have no integrity.

 

 

On the other hand, you seem to think that you're a paragon of integrity. So much for trnad api sunicena.

 

Just to quote your own guru, HDG A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami:

 

"The sastras of the yavanas, or meat-eaters, are not eternal scriptures. They have been fashioned recently, and sometimes they contradict one another. The scriptures of the yavanas are three: the Old Testament, the New Testament and the Koran. Their compilation has a history; they are not eternal like the Vedic knowledge. Therefore although they have their arguments and reasoning, they are not very sound and transcendental. As such, modern people advanced in science and philosophy deem these scriptures unacceptable.”

 

I'm sure you must've come across this statement many a time before. And yes, if you want to know true pramana, go read Srila Jiva Gosvamipada's Sri Tattva-sandarbha for a masterpiece of devotional and scholarly exposition of this subject matter.

[theist]

 

As you can see, Theist did not understand the real "purport" of your question. If my experience is any indication, no one else here will get it either, and they will just repeat more or less what Theist just wrote.

 

Actually I was trying to say his question was absurd on it's face in a polite way.

 

And it is obvious that you missed the point of the teaching the avadhuta was giving from his position as the disciple of the bee in the SB quote.

 

Here is a lesson from my life about my guru the drunken bum on the sidewalk.

 

As I was walking down the center of San Francisco one day I saw a Christian preacher bending down and talking to a drunk who was sitting on the sidewalk clearly too drunk to walk.

 

In my mind I mocked the Christian for wasting his time talking to such a wasted man who wouldn't remember a thing he said anyway. I saw myself as so much more than either of them.

 

As I got closely the Christian stood up and continued on his way. The drunk looked up at me and I was prepared for him to ask me for some money for his wine. What he did was look me straight in the eye as he said in a strong voice with conviction, "God is spirit!"

I recognized and accepted his statement as Absolute Truth. I felt deep shame for my self righteous attitude that I had carried towards him at the instant I heard those words because I knew the truth of that statement came from the Lord in His heart..the same Lord that inhabits mine. In that moment and for that moment he was my siksa guru as I heard the Lord's voice in his voice.

 

Get it? I didn't think so. Go back and read some more schoolboy, someday you will.

[gHari]

I'm afraid if we're going to obliterate the teachings, speculating that nothing actually remains of them, then we must just as easily destroy even the words of the Vedic sages and incarnations. How do you prove any of it is original? I'm sure a clever fellow like you could destroy everyone's faith in Vedic scripture and its God and gods quite easily. Wouldn't that be a feather in your cap!

 

Armed only with the mind, there is no hope. Haven't you ever tried to follow the words you play with?

[gHari]

It seems someone quoted AC Bhaktivedanta because it seemed to serve their purpose, so it would appear fair to quote some more:

 

"So KRSNa says, yatatAm api siddhAnAm: [bg. 7.3] "Those who have become perfect, out of many millions of them, one can understand what I am." It is not so easy to understand God. But if you take the process as is recommended in the zAstras by saintly person, then it is easy. Otherwise it is not easy. If you speculate to understand God, that is not possible. Then you go on and many, many years speculating. You will never understand God. Either you take the shelter of Lord Jesus Christ or KRSNa, if you follow his instruction--this is the way of understanding--then you will understand. But if you don't care for his instruction, then you will never understand. This is the process. "

 

 

.................

 

 

Guest (1): Would you say something about Christ and his relation to KRSNa consciousness? Christ? Jesus Christ?

 

 

PrabhupAda: Christ is KRSNa conscious. That's all. You become like Christ, KRSNa conscious. Don't you understand Christ, that he is fully KRSNa conscious? You don't understand it? Then you become like Christ, fully KRSNa conscious.

 

 

..................

 

 

PrabhupAda: KRSNa, Christ... Of course, this question was several times put to me. Christ says that "I am son of God." And KRSNa says "I am God." So there is no difference. Son of God and God, we respect everyone. If I respect your father, I respect you also. Do you mean to say if I disrespect your father, you'll be pleased upon me? No. That is our philosophy. So Caitanya MahAprabhu says that I am servant of the servant of the servant of the servant of the servant of KRSNa [Cc. Madhya 13.80].

 

 

So if anyone loves KRSNa, he must love Lord Jesus Christ also. And if one perfectly loves Jesus Christ he must love KRSNa. If he says, "Why shall I love KRSNa? I shall love Jesus Christ," then he has no knowledge. And if one says, "Why shall I love Jesus Christ? I shall love...", then he also has no knowledge.

 

 

If one understands KRSNa, then he will understand Jesus Christ. If one understands Jesus Christ, you'll understand KRSNa.

 

[LoveroftheBhagavata]

Perhaps you got the maha-mantra from the bible, otherwise there is no purpose to be served here. All that this proves is that if you can quote HDG to defend the truth of mleccha-dharma, others can do likewise to support the opposite viewpoint. As I said, for a systematic and methodical delineation of sabda pramana, take a look at the Tattva-sandarbha.

[theist]

 

Perhaps you got the maha-mantra from the bible, otherwise there is no purpose to be served here. All that this proves is that if you can quote HDG to defend the truth of mleccha-dharma, others can do likewise to support the opposite viewpoint. As I said, for a systematic and methodical delineation of sabda pramana, take a look at the Tattva-sandarbha.

The quotes said nothing of "mleccha-dharma". Jesus Christ is a person. Try to stay focused "otherwise there is no purpose to be served here" by you.

 

Try also to understand that the unlimited Lord has unlimited names and the waves of His avatars both Visnu-tattva and jiva-tattva appear in the material world in numbers like waves appearing on a river bank.

[matarisvan]

 

On the other hand, you seem to think that you're a paragon of integrity. So much for trnad api sunicena.

Just to quote your own guru, HDG A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami:

"The sastras of the yavanas, or meat-eaters, are not eternal scriptures. They have been fashioned recently, and sometimes they contradict one another. The scriptures of the yavanas are three: the Old Testament, the New Testament and the Koran. Their compilation has a history; they are not eternal like the Vedic knowledge. Therefore although they have their arguments and reasoning, they are not very sound and transcendental. As such, modern people advanced in science and philosophy deem these scriptures unacceptable.”

I'm sure you must've come across this statement many a time before. And yes, if you want to know true pramana, go read Srila Jiva Gosvamipada's Sri Tattva-sandarbha for a masterpiece of devotional and scholarly exposition of this subject matter.

Prabhupada's quotes in this regard are without merit. He is the reason why Christians on this forum have a false understanding of Vaishnavism.

Only a blatant hypocrite will selectively interpret the bible. Will they accept selective interpration of the Gita or the Bhagavatam? If you say the Gita was authored by a divinely empowered soul then the same claim is made by Christians about the bible. The bible has merit to the christians because it was written by empowered souls and not just anyone. No Christian will say parts the bible were written by divine direction and other parts were wholly human created. When Jesus said worship the Lord in heaven it was Yahweh and no one else.

This goes back to the careless, ignorant view of scriptures taught to them in iskcon. Their misinterpretation of the varna system is another example. The varna system of the Hindus is controlled by Krishna who assign the appropriate varna to a soul at the time of birth which remains the jiva's varna till death. The individual should perform duties prescribed for his varna for sportiual advancement.

Now consider Prabhupada's misinterpretation of the system. Prabhupada incorrectly imagined himself to be qualified enough to play the role of Krishna by assigning Varnas to people. He thought he was capable determine a persona's varna not by birth but by externally displayed qualities.He assigned Brahmin varnas to mlechchas who eventualy turned out to be pedophiles and worse. Such a blunder by Prabhupada and yet you find iskcon people in their ignorance thinking varna can be determined by characterestics. So what was the character of a pedophile disciple of Prabhupada? He was a shudra before he met Prabhupada, then he became a Brahmana, then he became a shudra again. How many varnas does not one go through in a life by this logic? One can change varna on a daily basis acording to iskcon!

This kind of confusion is rampant in that organization and I doubt they have the ability to see things clearly. Eve nif they did sometimes, I highly doubt they have the courage to accept it. We have seem Ghari and friends avoid incriminating questions and take resort to abuse on these threads over and over. The saying “if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch” is perfect in this context.

 

[gHari]

Well, there we have it. We have cut to the chase and found the underlying fault.

 

We interpret Bhagavad-gita to mean something about varna, abandoning trivial concepts like bhakti (10.10) and saranagata (18.66). That is why we can't understand the teachings of Jesus as the essence of religion. But then, we don't even know what Jesus preached. How is it that we have so many opinions about who he was, without even knowing this basic starting point?

 

How is it that Parasurama personally killed millions at a time with His axe? Over and over again? What was their fault?

 

 

Jesus did not preach karma-kanda - was that a fault? What is the highest path taught by Lord Krishna on Kuruksetra?

 

Sorry, but I don't see any "incriminating questions". I only see bigotry and irrational mental speculation with no tinge of contact with God. I see no religion, no bhakti - only self-aggrandizement. I see jihad in the guise of Hindu intellectualism. I see words not connected in the least with Krsna, Paramatma. I see people ridiculing a teaching that they don't even know - a teaching which has apparently remained incomprehensible to them even from the lips of Sri Krsna Himself. I see nothing.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Hear, hear!! gHari hits the bulls-eye (again)!

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Only a blatant hypocrite will selectively interpret the bible.

 

Of course, this is the view of all fundamentalists, Hindu or otherwise.

 

The Vaishnavas are called Paramahamsas for a reason.

[raghu]

A lot of tangential and frankly irrelevant postings here...

 

The basic point that no one addressed is that a given scripture's validity cannot be established by the "pick and choose" mentality of the christian-vaishnava syncretists. Either the scripture is beyond all flaws, and is thus independently authoritative, or it has some corruptions/adulterations/flaws in which case all of it is at least suspect.

 

It's not a question of being a paramahamsa. It's a question of what is pramana and how you know that something is correct. This is a simple and elementary point, but once again the confusion resulting from your (possibly deliberate) attempts to obfuscate the issue do nothing to help these people shed their misconceptions.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

One doesn't "know" anything. Only a fool thinks he "knows" something. Our only strength and solace is our faith. Everything else is "tangential".

 

The acharya tries to pass on without coloration what he/she heard submissively from the Lord in the form of his/her Gurudev.

 

 

A lot of tangential and frankly irrelevant postings here...

 

The basic point that no one addressed is that a given scripture's validity cannot be established by the "pick and choose" mentality of the christian-vaishnava syncretists. Either the scripture is beyond all flaws, and is thus independently authoritative, or it has some corruptions/adulterations/flaws in which case all of it is at least suspect.

 

It's not a question of being a paramahamsa. It's a question of what is pramana and how you know that something is correct. This is a simple and elementary point, but once again the confusion resulting from your (possibly deliberate) attempts to obfuscate the issue do nothing to help these people shed their misconceptions.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Either the scripture is beyond all flaws, and is thus independently authoritative, or it has some corruptions/adulterations/flaws in which case all of it is at least suspect.

 

Didn't Vedavyas admit that his works were imperfect? Does that make those works "suspect"?

[raghu]

 

Dodge. Interpolation or corruption adulteration, tainted etc. still you must present the evidence for your statement schoolboy

 

Here is an example of why some individuals really need to be more compliant with their attention-deficit medication before they presume to post.

 

Theist earlier wrote in this very same thread, and I quote:

 

"The Bible while containing many God conscious passages is also heavily mixed with much specualtion. I had a Jehovah witness lady last week show me a verse from the Old Testament that clearly stated that at death there is no after life until the Lord comes to bring people back to life for the Judgment. This was her answer to my belief in reincarnation.

 

As the saying goes, "too many cooks spoil the broth", and the Bible has too many authors or more precisely too many authors offering differing and unenlightened speculations on such topics as the self etc."

 

As in, he just clearly stated that the Bible has been corrupted over the years by the adulterations of other individuals.

 

But when I say the same thing, he wants proof?

 

Some people are just hopelessly confused, but despite that, they just have to argue and disagree, not because they have something intelligent to contribute, but just for the sake of arguing.

[raghu]

 

Didn't Vedavyas admit that his works were imperfect? Does that make those works "suspect"?

 

Do you want to provide evidence for your statement, or are we supposed to draw conclusions based on hearsay?

[raghu]

 

One doesn't "know" anything. Only a fool thinks he "knows" something.

 

How strange. You seem to "know" that I am a bigot and that what I say is wrong.

 

I guess what you mean is that if *you* believe in something, then you "know" it, but those of us who disagree with you can't "know" anything in reality, right?

[Murali_Mohan_das]

You should know that anecdotal evidence is not the same as empiric evidence.

 

To prove that the Bible has been altered and adulterated, you need an "original" copy (whose authenticity can be verified) to compare with current editions. Lacking that, all you have is blustering assertions.

 

As always, your "reasoning" can be equally applied to Vedic scriptures. Do you have Lord Brahma's copy of the Vedas and Upanishads? How do you know the shastras as we know them have not been polluted over the years? You don't, do you?

 

 

Here is an example of why some individuals really need to be more compliant with their attention-deficit medication before they presume to post.

 

Theist earlier wrote in this very same thread, and I quote:

 

"The Bible while containing many God conscious passages is also heavily mixed with much specualtion. I had a Jehovah witness lady last week show me a verse from the Old Testament that clearly stated that at death there is no after life until the Lord comes to bring people back to life for the Judgment. This was her answer to my belief in reincarnation.

 

As the saying goes, "too many cooks spoil the broth", and the Bible has too many authors or more precisely too many authors offering differing and unenlightened speculations on such topics as the self etc."

 

As in, he just clearly stated that the Bible has been corrupted over the years by the adulterations of other individuals.

 

But when I say the same thing, he wants proof?

 

Some people are just hopelessly confused, but despite that, they just have to argue and disagree, not because they have something intelligent to contribute, but just for the sake of arguing.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Do you want to provide evidence for your statement, or are we supposed to draw conclusions based on hearsay?

 

http://vedabase.net/sb/1/5/en

 

 

SB 1.5.11: On the other hand, that literature which is full of descriptions of the transcendental glories of the name, fame, forms, pastimes, etc., of the unlimited Supreme Lord is a different creation, full of transcendental words directed toward bringing about a revolution in the impious lives of this world's misdirected civilization. Such transcendental literatures, even though imperfectly composed, are heard, sung and accepted by purified men who are thoroughly honest.

 

Are you thoroughly honest?