krsna Posted January 19, 2008 Report Share Posted January 19, 2008 Srila Prabhupada: Simply we have to desire to please Him, and not desire anything for ourselves, then we become simply instruments for His will. This is the important esence of Krsna consciousness. :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murali_Mohan_das Posted January 21, 2008 Report Share Posted January 21, 2008 Yes!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarva gattah Posted January 21, 2008 Report Share Posted January 21, 2008 Srila Prabhupada: Simply we have to desire to please Him, and not desire anything for ourselves, then we become simply instruments for His will. This is the important esence of Krsna consciousness. :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray: In all humility, this comment by Prabhupada must be properly understood. Over the years in ISKCON there has been an ‘impersonal mood’ attached to this comment by some devotees that denies one credit where credit is due. Devotee's have used those comments wrongly. If you have success in a preaching project, they say 'oh that is lord Krishna’s credit, he is working through you, its not yours'. This ‘impersonal comment’ was Ramai Swamis favourite saying to anyone who achieved anything, he could not see the 'personal' surrender of the devotee that allowed Krishna to work through them AND HELP themdo Krishna's work. In 1978 at a Gaudiya math Temple I visited they tried to say that Prabhupada’s success was not his doing, not his credit and that it was Krishna's - they were actually jealous of Prabhupada's achievements. In the beginning many of his Godbrothers laughed when he first went to America however, when he was successful they said – "Oh that is not the doing of Bhaktivedanta Swami, that is Krishna's doing, it is not Swamiji's credit" It is all Prabhupada’s credit because he chose to surrender to his Spiritual Master and the will of Krishna!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krsna Posted January 22, 2008 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 It is all Prabhupada’s credit because he chose to surrender to his Spiritual Master and the will of Krishna!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 Sripad B.G. Narasingha Maharaja, When the good ship Jaladutta was crossing the Atlantic Ocean en route to Boston Harbor on Sept. 13, 1965, Srila Prabhupada composed a beautiful prayer in his native Bengali language. The refrain appeals to Sri Krsna, who is bound by Radharani's love. krsna taba punya habe bhai e-punya koribe jabe radharani khusi habe dhruva ati boli toma tai Commenting on Srila Prabhupada's poem, Srila Sridhara Maharaja once said, "I consider him to be a saktyavesa-avatara and this is confirmed in his writings on his spiritual journey through the Atlantic. How he arrived in America, the nature of his beginning the movement, his intense degree of dependence and dedication to Krsna, and how much he made himself empty of any other desire than the order of his gurudeva corroborate that Krsna came down to help him. In his poem Prayer to the Lotus Feet of Krsna , we find him pleading with Krsna, 'My dear brother, your good fortune will come to you only when Srimati Radharani becomes pleased with you.' Seeing his gurudeva, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura, as Radharani's delegation and his order as her divine service, he humbly submitted that he did not feel himself worthy or fit to discharge the divine service, so he enlisted Krsna in the service of his guru. He had completely dedicated himself to the purpose; he was so earnest in his prayer to Krsna that divine force came down to help him. Otherwise, it is impossible. It is not an ordinary thing that anyone can do, rather the highest thing was extensively taken down to the lowest position, to the fallen souls. It cannot but be the divine power, embodied and in a great intensity and magnitude! So, saktyavesa-avatara, I cannot but take him to be so." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 March 5, 2002, Vol. IV, No. 4 Saktyavesa and Nitya-siddha Q & A with Swami B. V. Tripurari “This is the subjective reality that overrides the objective reality. When we can take the objective view and discuss it without losing faith, our faith is firm and well-founded. This is possible for an advanced devotee. He can take an objective position for the sake of discussion without the risk of falling from his subjective reality.” Q. I heard that there are seven types of saktyavesa-avataras (empowered by different saktis). What are these seven types? Also, in a recent Sanga (Vol. 3.31) you mentioned that Srila Sridhara Maharaja described A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada as saktyavesa of Nityananda, Lord Caitanya's principal associate. Prabhupada's guru, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, has sometimes been described as saktyavesa as well. Could you please elaborate on this and tell us more about the meaning of saktyavesa? A. According to scripture the term saktyavesa-avatara usually refers to one who is empowered by a particular aspect of God for a particular purpose. This term may refer to a jiva (individual soul) or God himself. However, Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu also tells Sanatana Goswami that there are unlimited saktyavesa avataras of Krsna, saktyavesavatara krsnera asankhya ganana. He instructs Sri Sanatana further, distinguishing two divisions of saktyavesa: direct (mukhya) and indirect (gauna), saktyavesa dui-rupa-'mukhya' 'gauna' dekhi. He describes these two divisions as “avataras” who are directly empowered and others who represent God indirectly by possessing a vibhuti, or power of his, or his special blessing, saksat-saktye 'avatara,' abhase 'vibhuti' likhi. The examples given by Mahaprabhu of the first type refer to God himself. His examples of the second type involve jiva (individual) souls who are empowered by God for a particular purpose. The principal empowerments are sevenfold: (1) empowerment for the personal service of God (sva-sevana-sakti), (2) empowerment to support the world (bhu-dharana-sakti), (3) empowerment to create (srsti-sakti), (4) Catuhsana, or the Kumaras, specifically empowered to distribute transcendental knowledge (jnana-sakti), (5) empowerment to distribute bhakti (bhakti-sakti), (6) empowerment to rule and maintain (palana-sakti) and (7) empowerment to deal with the demoniac (dusta-damana-sakti). Divine absorption (bhagavad-avesa) is also sometimes classified as saktyavesa, and as Mahaprabhu instructs Sanatana Goswami, divine empowerment is unlimited in its variety. In support of this he refers to the Bhagavad-gita, wherein many prominent aspects of nature are referred to as empowered representations of God. Srila Rupa Goswami has explained in Laghu-bhagavatamrta: jnana-sakty-adi-kala ya yatravisto janardanah/ ta avesa nigadyante jiva eva mahattamah// “Whenever the Lord is present in someone by portions of his various potencies (the seven mentioned above), that living entity is invested with special power and is a great soul.” So the term can be used loosely or it can be more specific with reference to the seven principal types of empowerment. I am not aware of any specific explanation or discussion of the nature of the empowerment (avesa) of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura. However, we could consider him empowered to distribute bhakti (bhakti-sakti). It was the opinion of Pujyapada Sridhara Maharaja that my Guru Maharaja, Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, was specifically empowered—by an aspect of Nityananda Prabhu's power—to distribute bhakti when he was crossing the ocean to come to the West for the first time. He knew Prabhupada before he went, and he met him afterward as well and noticed the difference. After analyzing Prabhupada's contribution and the nature of his campaign, Sridhara Maharaja came to this conclusion. Some others outside of the Gaudiya Saraswata sampradaya also reached this conclusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarva gattah Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 It is all Prabhupada’s credit because he chose to surrender to his Spiritual Master and the will of Krishna!! To put it in context, I was referring to the preaching by Prabhupada that his Godbrothers minimized by 'impersonally' saying - "Oh that is not the doing of Bhaktivedanta Swami, that is Krishna's doing, it is not Swamiji's credit" Today devotee's success is credited by their surrender to Prabhupada that allows Prabhupada to work through us! As I have already explained, it was also the ‘impersonal stereotype comment’ that Ramai Swami' also would say to anyone who achieved anything, -"that is not your doing it is Prabhupada's and Krishna's doing, it is not your credit". Ramai could not see the 'personal' surrender of the devotee that allows Krishna AND PRABHUPADA to work through them AND HELP them do PRABHUPADA'S and Krishna's work. Our ISKCON movement is one of 'personal service' to Prabhupada, our founder. Service to Prabhupada is not impersonal 'All of them as they surrender unto me I reward according' We are not impersonal puppets (although some in ISKCON still are) It is ones 'personal' surrender of the devotee that allows Krishna AND PRABHUPADA to work through them AND HELP them do PRABHUPADA'S and Krishna's work. The following is the real meaning and understanding of this verse Srila Prabhupada: Simply we have to desire to please Him, and not desire anything for ourselves, then we become simply instruments for His will. This is the important esence of Krsna Conclusion - It is ones 'personal' surrender that allows Krishna AND PRABHUPADA's mercy to work through them AND HELP's the devotee do PRABHUPADA'S and Krishna's work. This is the example set when Prabhupada decided to do something by going to America in 1965, while his Godbrothers sat in their Temples satsfied with a few disciples and prasadam We also have chooses that allows Prabhupada to work through us that depends on OUR level of surrender. We are not mindless programmed robot servants in Vaikuntha. You know, this imitating surrender IS the reason for ISKCON'S past troubles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realist Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 Srila Prabhupada: Simply we have to desire to please Him, and not desire anything for ourselves, then we become simply instruments for His will. This is the important esence of Krsna Conclusion - It is ones 'personal' surrender that allows Krishna AND PRABHUPADA's mercy to work through them AND HELP's the devotee do PRABHUPADA'S and Krishna's work. This is the example set when Prabhupada decided to do something by going to America in 1965, while his Godbrothers sat in their Temples satsfied with a few disciples and prasadam We also have chooses that allows Prabhupada to work through us that depends on OUR level of surrender. Yes this is the real essence that lays the foundation for one to become Krsna Conscious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murali_Mohan_das Posted January 23, 2008 Report Share Posted January 23, 2008 What was Srila Prabhupada's mood? Did *he* take credit for his surrender and is enormous preaching success? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarva gattah Posted January 23, 2008 Report Share Posted January 23, 2008 What was Srila Prabhupada's mood? Did *he* take credit for his surrender and is enormous preaching success? No he didn't. The point I'm trying to make is having a sense of self worth, a devotee does not want credit, but some take advantage of that and destroy ones self esteem and self expression under the heading of 'surrender' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yogesh Posted January 24, 2008 Report Share Posted January 24, 2008 What was Srila Prabhupada's mood? Did *he* take credit for his surrender and is enormous preaching success? reading somewhere (maybe some devotees on this forum knows) that when Sirla Prabhupada was praised for his achievements he would always say that all credit belongs to his spiritual master who sent him on this preaching mission. Hare Krsna/Krishna Jay Sirla Prabhupada Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarva gattah Posted January 24, 2008 Report Share Posted January 24, 2008 reading somewhere (maybe some devotees on this forum knows) that when Sirla Prabhupada was praised for his achievements he would always say that all credit belongs to his spiritual master who sent him on this preaching mission. Hare Krsna/Krishna Jay Sirla Prabhupada Exactly! We also have choices like Prabhupada did that allows Prabhupada (or ones own Spiritual Master) to work through us that depends on ones level of surrender, then we ALSO become simply instruments for HIS will and not the ego centric goals of some over ambitious so called guru's, sanyasis and managers who just want to ‘use you’ to be their 'yes clone’ under the heading of ‘surrender prabhooo’ that has been so widespread in ISKCON over the years This is the point I am trying to make, one has to be vigilant and careful and not blindly take to Spiritual life Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted January 24, 2008 Report Share Posted January 24, 2008 What was Srila Prabhupada's mood? Did *he* take credit for his surrender and is enormous preaching success? you be the judge: "The Krishna consciousness movement is being propagated according to this principle, and therefore our preaching work is going on successfully, in spite of the many impediments offered by antagonistic demons, because we are getting positive help from our previous acaryas. One must judge the action by its result. The members of the self-appointed acaryas party who occupied the property of the Gaudiya Math are satisfied, but they could make no progress in preaching. Therefore by the result of their actions one should know that they are asara, or useless, whereas the success of the ISKCON party, the International Society for Krishna Consciousness, which strictly follows Guru and Guranga, is increasing daily all over the world. Srila Bhaktsiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura wanted to print as many books as possible and distribute them all over the world. We have tried our best in this connection, and we are getting results beyond our expectations."(CC Adi 12.8) "This example given by Krsnadas Kaviraj Goswami is very appropriate. In the case of the Gaudiya Math members, one can apply a similar process. There are many disciples of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, but to judge who is actually his disciple, to divide the useful from the usless, one must measure the activities of such disciples in executing the will of the spiritual master. Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura tried his best to spread the cult of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu to countries outside India. When he was present he patronized the disciples to go outside India to preach the cult of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, but they were unsuccessful because within their minds they were not actually serious about preaching His cult in foreign countries; they simply wanted to take credit for having gone to foreign lands and utilize this recognition in India by advertising themselves as repatriated preachers. MANY svamis have adopted this hypocritical means of preaching for the last eighty years or more, but no one could preach the real cult of Krsna consciousness all over the world. They merely came back to India falsely advertising that they had converted all the foreigners to the ideas of Vedanta or Krsna consciousness,, and then they collected funds in India and lived satisfied lives of material comfort. As one fans paddy to separate the real paddy from useless straw, by accepting the criterion recommended by Krsnadas Kaviraja Goswami one can very easily understand who is a genuine world-preacher and who is useless." (Cc. Adi lila Ch. 12 Text 12 Purport) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted January 24, 2008 Report Share Posted January 24, 2008 Srila Sridhar Maharaj told that these kinds of statements by Srila Prabhupada are an example of acarya abhiman, literally the "ego of the acarya". He explained that it is the duty of the acarya to "collect the faith" of the neophytes. So if it helped them to think that Srila Prabhupada was the only acarya, then so be it, at that time, place and circumstance. All statements such as the one you quoted should be viewed as taking place with kala, desha, patra and harmonized with opposite statements concering his godbrothers such as, Even amongst our godbrothers we have misunderstanding, but none of us is astray from the service of Krsna. My Guru Maharaja ordered us to execute his mission combinedly. Unfortunately, we are now separated. But none of us have stopped preaching Krsna consciousness. Even there was misunderstanding amongst the godbrothers of my Guru Maharaja, none of them deviated from the transcendental loving service of Krsna. (SP Ltr. Brahmananda, November 18, 1967)The disciples of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Goswami are all godbrothers, and although there are some differences of opinion and we are not acting conjointly, every one of us is spreading this Krsna consciousness movement according to his capacity and producing many disciples to spread it all over the world. ( Bhag. 4.28.31) So far as your question about controversy amongst the disciples of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Goswami Maharaja, that is a fact. But this controversy is not material. Just like in a national program, different political parties are sometimes in conflict and make propaganda against each other, but their central point is always service to the country. Similarly, amongst the disciples of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati there may be some controversy, but the central point is how to preach the mission of His Divine Grace. (SP Ltr. Mandali Bhadra, July 28, 1969) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted January 24, 2008 Report Share Posted January 24, 2008 Srila Sridhar Maharaj told that these kinds of statements by Srila Prabhupada are an example of acarya abhiman, literally the "ego of the acarya". He explained that it is the duty of the acarya to "collect the faith" of the neophytes. So if it helped them to think that Srila Prabhupada was the only acarya, then so be it, at that time, place and circumstance. Sridhara Maharaja was one of the kindest Vaishnavas I can think of. He also did not want to damage the faith of the neophytes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakti-Fan Posted January 24, 2008 Report Share Posted January 24, 2008 Sridhara Maharaja was one of the kindest Vaishnavas I can think of. He also did not want to damage the faith of the neophytes. One day Srila Narayana Maharaja was telling the class, "I am the real acarya of Iskcon and nobody else". The next day he told one man, "I don't even think that I am a madhyama adhikari (second class devotee)." The first statement must have been this "guru abhiman". The second was a manifestation of his humble devotional mood. When this got back to Iskcon they wrote articles saying that he cannot be the acarya of Iskcon or anything because he admits that he is not even a madhyama adhkirari. They have no idea of the different moods of the guru. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted January 24, 2008 Report Share Posted January 24, 2008 One day Srila Narayana Maharaja was telling the class, "I am the real acarya of Iskcon and nobody else". The next day he told one man, "I don't even think that I am a madhyama adhikari (second class devotee)." The first statement must have been this "guru abhiman". The second was a manifestation of his humble devotional mood. When this got back to Iskcon they wrote articles saying that he cannot be the acarya of Iskcon or anything because he admits that he is not even a madhyama adhkirari. They have no idea of the different moods of the guru. I have not yet seen any examples of "guru abhiman" displayed by Srila Sridhara Maharaja. I am not sure that mood is helpful. It seems to lead to very serious divisions and disagreements among disciples of various gurus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted January 24, 2008 Report Share Posted January 24, 2008 I have not yet seen any examples of "guru abhiman" displayed by Srila Sridhara Maharaja. I am not sure that mood is helpful. It seems to lead to very serious divisions and disagreements among disciples of various gurus. Just wearing the vesa of triadandi sannyasa is a manifestation of the abhiman of a preacher (a kind of siksa guru). This is why Srila Saraswati Thakur introduced it into his line and used triadandi sannyasa as way to collect honor for Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's movement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted January 24, 2008 Report Share Posted January 24, 2008 Just wearing the vesa of triadandi sannyasa is a manifestation of the abhiman of a preacher (a kind of siksa guru). This is why Srila Saraswati Thakur introduced it into his line and used triadandi sannyasa as way to collect honor for Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's movement. Good point, but that is not what I had in mind. I was refering to statements made by gurus, such as those above, which instill a certain unhealthy mood in their less discriminating disciples. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted January 24, 2008 Report Share Posted January 24, 2008 Good point, but that is not what I had in mind. I was refering to statements made by gurus, such as those above, which instill a certain unhealthy mood in their less discriminating disciples. Sometimes it is said that only the guru should correct anyone else. In a way, preaching is correcting the thoughts of others. So this is why only one on the level of attainment can preach on their own, or in essence be a kind of guru. Since we are always dealing with the absolute conception and it's relative application in this world, then any stance we take will entail some risk. When giving the philosophy the guru always takes the risk of not explaining too much while not explaining too little (and visa versa). Sometimes there is the reaction to the misunderstanding but a true devotee and guru will be personally protected by the Lord because his only intent is to glorify the Lord. Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 1.5.11 tad-vāg-visargo janatāgha-viplavo yasmin prati-ślokam abaddhavaty api nāmāny anantasya yaśo 'ńkitāni yat śṛṇvanti gāyanti gṛṇanti sādhavaḥ TRANSLATION On the other hand, that literature which is full of descriptions of the transcendental glories of the name, fame, forms, pastimes, etc., of the unlimited Supreme Lord is a different creation, full of transcendental words directed toward bringing about a revolution in the impious lives of this world's misdirected civilization. Such transcendental literatures, even though imperfectly composed, are heard, sung and accepted by purified men who are thoroughly honest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murali_Mohan_das Posted January 25, 2008 Report Share Posted January 25, 2008 Thanks for the thoughtful and informative replies to my question. Truly, all credit and thanks are due to Sri Guru for whatever fortune we receive and whatever service we are able to perform. Jai Gurudev!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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