Why do people do what they do?

[shiva]

In another thread a person was asking about the cause of a person pursuing a certain path even when that person had heard many arguments against following that path.

 

 

A lot to digest. Thank you Shakti Fan. I am still curious to why devotees who have heard this and are experienced still turn to sahjiyaism. What is the pyschology involved?

 

What is the "pyschology" of someone who has had faith in and practiced sadhana bhakti for many years and then loses faith in bhakti? or vedanta? or become christians or wiccans or muslims or moonies or atheists? What you are really asking is, why do people accept any type of philosophy as true or false, or even, why do people do what they do?

 

People believe according to what their destiny dictates. It's in God's hands. If you want to get into the details of how every person rationalizes what they believe, you first need to understand that no one is independent of the guidance and control of paramatma. Regardless of what a person may think is his motive or rationale for accepting one path over another, for doing one thing or another, the reality is that everyone is being controlled at all times and all are forced to act in a way so that they can experience what their karma dictates. That is until the time of their attaining to the stage of jivan-mukta, until they are completely free from maya and can relate with the Lord as a liberated person. Even at that stage where karma and the path of purification is not the cause of one's destiny, there is still no independence. There is never independence for the jiva because the jiva's inherent nature is dependence.

 

To try and make this easily understood, consider how we function as intelligent people. We are consciousness. We are the consciousness which experiences the world through our senses, and we listen to and interact with the mind. We are consciousness and we are different from the mind, we "hear" the mind i.e. you are hearing the inner voice which is speaking these words to you as you read these words. As you read these words you can "hear" these words being spoken, that voice is the mind, that which hears the voice is you.

 

Those who are under the influece of maya identify this voice they hear while they read this, as under their control, or even as themself. But in fact this voice they hear is not under their control. To prove this point, while you read these words, try to read them and also try to stop the voice which is speaking these words in your mind. You will see that it is not possible.

 

In reality the voice you hear while reading these words, is not under your control. Instead this voice is what controls you. This voice is paramatma, God.

 

In the Bhagavatam Kapiladev states

 

 

yad vidur hy aniruddhakhyam

hrsikanam adhisvaram

saradendivara-syamam

samradhyam yogibhih sanaih

 

The mind of the living entity is known by the name of Lord Aniruddha, the supreme ruler of the senses. He possesses a bluish-black form resembling a lotus flower growing in the autumn. He is found slowly by the yogīs.

 

When the jiva is free from ahankara/maya then he finds the Lord existing at the heart of the mind.

 

 

premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena

santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti

yaḿ śyāmasundaram acintya-guṇa-svarūpam

govindam ādi-puruṣaḿ tam ahaḿ bhajāmi

 

I worship Govinda, the primeval Lord, who is Śyāmasundara, Kṛṣṇa Himself with inconceivable innumerable attributes, whom the pure devotees see in their heart of hearts with the eye of devotion tinged with the salve of love

 

Therefore Kapila says

 

 

muktāśrayaḿ yarhi nirviṣayaḿ viraktam

nirvāṇam ṛcchati manaḥ sahasā yathārcih

ātmānam atra puruṣo ‘vyavadhānam ekam

anvīkṣate pratinivṛtta-guṇa-pravāhah

 

When the mind is thus completely freed from all material contamination and detached from material objectives, it is just like the flame of a lamp. At that time the mind is actually dovetailed with that of the Supreme Lord and is experienced as one with Him because it is freed from the interactive flow of the material qualities

 

Purport

 

....When the mind is completely purified in love of Godhead, the mind becomes the mind of the Supreme Personality of Godhead....

 

 

 

so ‘py etayā caramayā manaso nivṛttyā

tasmin mahimny avasitaḥ sukha-duḥkha-bāhye

hetutvam apy asati kartari duḥkhayor yat

svātman vidhatta upalabdha-parātma-kāṣṭhah

 

Thus situated in the highest transcendental stage, the mind ceases from all material reaction and becomes situated in its own glory, transcendental to all material conceptions of happiness and distress. At that time the yogī realizes the truth of his relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He discovers that pleasure and pain as well as their interactions, which he attributed to his own self, are actually due to the false ego, which is a product of ignorance.

 

So the point I am making is that because the mind, the voice you hear while reading these words, or at anytime, is really not you nor under your control, therefore you are not independent in your actions. When the jiva is conditioned he is unaware of the true nature of the mind, he is intent on being the controller of his world, so the Lord provides the jiva with ahankara, the false ego, which convinces the jiva that the mind is under his control, causing the jiva to identify with the mind in order for the jiva to be convinced that he is in control. Therefore Kapiladev says

 

 

sahasra-śirasaḿ sākṣād

yam anantaḿ pracakṣate

sańkarṣaṇākhyaḿ puruṣam

bhūtendriya-manomayam

 

The threefold ahańkāra, the source of the gross elements, the senses and the mind, is identical with them because it is their cause. It is known by the name of Sańkarṣaṇa, who is directly Lord Ananta with a thousand heads.

 

Here we are told that ahankara is essentially creating our material existence. When one is under the influence of ahankara one misidentifies reality, thus creating the material world, material senses, and material mind. But in reality ahankara is the Lord. The Lord provides us with the illusion of being in control, which causes our material existence. Therefore the material existence we experience is really only tentative for the jiva, it is contingent upon our perception of ourselves and of our environment. The mind, the senses and the world are seen in one way when you are conditioned, but in a different way when you are liberated.

 

Srila Prabhupada wrote the following in a purport to the Bhagavatam (verse 4.9.7 ) which may illuminate what Kapiladev is trying to convey:

 

 

Dhruva Maharaja realized that the Supreme Absolute Truth, the Personality of Godhead, acts through His different energies, not that He becomes void or impersonal and thus becomes all-pervading. The Mayavadi philosopher thinks that the Absolute Truth, being spread throughout the cosmic manifestation, has no personal form. But here Dhruva Maharaja, upon realization of the Vedic conclusion, says, “You are spread all over the cosmic manifestation by Your energy.” This energy is basically spiritual, but because it acts in the material world temporarily, it is called maya, or illusory energy. In other words, for everyone but the devotees the Lord’s energy acts as external energy. Dhruva Maharaja could understand this fact very nicely, and he could understand also that the energy and the energetic are one and the same. The energy cannot be separated from the energetic .

 

The basic idea which Kapiladev is trying to impart is that the “material” world exists for those whose consciousness is affected by ahankara. What he is saying is what Srila Prabhupada mentions in the above i.e. that the “material world” exists as a condition of the conditioned soul. For the person who is free from illusion, or the enlightened devotee, for them, the external energy of the Lord, or the “material” world, no longer exists. They exist in the spiritual world no matter where they are.

 

An example would be the concept of prasadam. If we take an item which may seem to be comprised of material energy, like an apple, then offer that apple to the Lord, it becomes spiritual energy. The apple does not change it’s actual composition, it is still comprised of the same substance, what changes is the consciousness of those who see the apple as transcendental after it is offered to the Lord. So what Kapila and Prabhupada are saying is that the material world is “caused” by ahankara, or the material world exists as such by the perception of those under the influence of ahankara.

 

Those who are free from ahankara understand that because everything is the energy of the Lord, and that the energy and the energetic are one, that they are “one and the same”, therefore the “material energy” no longer exists for them. If your life is not lived as an offering in service to the Lord then you exist in the “material world”, like food not offered to the Lord remains “material”, but when offered becomes “spiritual”.

 

From Caitanya Caritamrta

 

 

manuṣyāṇāḿ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye

yatatām api siddhānāḿ kaścin māḿ vetti tattvatah

 

“Out of many thousands among men, one may endeavor for perfection, and of those who have achieved perfection, hardly one knows Me in truth.”

 

The word siddhaye indicates liberation. Only after being liberated from material conditioning can one understand Kṛṣṇa. When one can understand Kṛṣṇa as He is (tattvataḥ), one actually lives in the spiritual world, although apparently living within the material body. This technical science can be understood when one is actually spiritually advanced.

 

In his Bhakti-rasāmṛta-sindhu (1.2.187), Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī says:

 

īhā yasya harer dāsye karmaṇā manasā girā

nikhilāsv apy avasthāsu jīvan-muktaḥ sa ucyate

 

When a person in this material world desires only to serve Kṛṣṇa with love and devotion, he is liberated, even though functioning within this material world. As the Bhagavad-gītā (14.26) confirms:

 

māḿ ca yo ‘vyabhicāreṇa bhakti-yogena sevate

sa guṇān samatītyaitān brahma-bhūyāya kalpate

 

“One who engages in full devotional service, unfailing in all circumstances, at once transcends the modes of material nature and thus comes to the level of Brahman.”

 

Simply by engaging in the loving service of the Lord one can attain liberation. As stated in the Bhagavad-gītā (18.54), brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāńkṣati. A person who is highly advanced in spiritual knowledge and who has attained the brahma-bhūta stage neither laments nor hankers for anything material. That is the stage of spiritual realization.

 

Śrīla Bhaktivinoda Ṭhākura considers the brahma-bhūta stage in two divisions — svarūpa-gata and vastu-gata. One who has understood Kṛṣṇa in truth but is still maintaining some material connection is known to be situated in his svarūpa, his original consciousness. When that original consciousness is completely spiritual, it is called Kṛṣṇa consciousness. One who lives in such consciousness is actually living in Vṛndāvana. He may live anywhere; material location doesn’t mat ter. When by the grace of Kṛṣṇa one thus advances, he becomes completely uncontaminated by the material body and mind and at that time factually lives in Vṛndāvana.

 

So what does this have to do with understanding how we function and have no independence? We are not the mind, we do not control the mind, the mind determines what we know or think we know, and determines what we do. We act according to the dictate of the mind. Krishna tells us

 

sarvasya caham hrdi sannivisto

mattah smrtir jnanam apohanam ca

I am seated in everyone’s heart, and from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness

 

The heart in this context means "the seat of the mind". Because we are not the mind and have no control over the mind, all knowledge we think we possess, which is supplied by the mind, is being supplied by Krishna as paramatma. Everything we think we know, where we are, who we are, what day it is, what year it is, how to speak a language, how to do or understand anything, is being supplied by the Lord as "memory" or knowledge. Everything the mind is doing is actually the action of paramatma. Knowing this at all times is what is experienced by the liberated soul. For him, paramatma, which you are listening to right now as it speaks these words in your mind, reveals it's true nature as the Lord. For the conditioned soul who desires to be the controller, the mind is seen through the influence of ahankara, and the mind is seen as under the control of the conditioned soul. But that is just an illusion the Lord creates for those souls who desire to be in control.

 

But in reality no jiva is free from control, the mind controls the jiva. The conditioned jiva identifies with and thinks he controls the mind, whereas the liberated jiva develops his relationship with the Lord through the mind. The conditioned jiva hears these words spoken in his mind, but he does not see the Lord as the one speaking these words in his mind, whereas the liberated jiva is always aware of the truth of the voice which is speaking as his mind, he never identifies with this voice, and he understands that he does not control it. With this understanding the devotee develops a personal realtionship with the Lord, directly, and free from all speculations.

 

So to answer your question, the people who take up some type of sahajiya practice, do so because that is their karma. They do what they are forced to do. From Srila Prabhupada's Bhagavad Gita, here are two relevant verses and purports.

 

 

prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni

guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśah

ahańkāra-vimūḍhātmā

kartāham iti manyate

 

The spirit soul bewildered by the influence of false ego thinks himself the doer of activities that are in actuality carried out by the three modes of material nature.

 

PURPORT

 

Two persons, one in Kṛṣṇa consciousness and the other in material consciousness, working on the same level, may appear to be working on the same platform, but there is a wide gulf of difference in their respective positions. The person in material consciousness is convinced by false ego that he is the doer of everything. He does not know that the mechanism of the body is produced by material nature, which works under the supervision of the Supreme Lord. The materialistic person has no knowledge that ultimately he is under the control of Kṛṣṇa. The person in false ego takes all credit for doing everything independently, and that is the symptom of his nescience. He does not know that this gross and subtle body is the creation of material nature, under the order of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and as such his bodily and mental activities should be engaged in the service of Kṛṣṇa, in Kṛṣṇa consciousness. The ignorant man forgets that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is known as Hṛṣīkeśa, or the master of the senses of the material body, for due to his long misuse of the senses in sense gratification, he is factually bewildered by the false ego, which makes him forget his eternal relationship with Kṛṣṇa.

 

 

prakṛtyaiva ca karmāṇi

kriyamāṇāni sarvaśah

yaḥ paśyati tathātmānam

akartāraḿ sa paśyati

 

One who can see that all activities are performed by the body, which is created of material nature, and sees that the self does nothing, actually sees.

 

PURPORT

 

This body is made by material nature under the direction of the Supersoul, and whatever activities are going on in respect to one's body are not his doing. Whatever one is supposed to do, either for happiness or for distress, one is forced to do because of the bodily constitution. The self, however, is outside all these bodily activities. This body is given according to one's past desires. To fulfill desires, one is given the body, with which he acts accordingly. Practically speaking, the body is a machine, designed by the Supreme Lord, to fulfill desires. Because of desires, one is put into difficult circumstances to suffer or to enjoy. This transcendental vision of the living entity, when developed, makes one separate from bodily activities. One who has such a vision is an actual seer.

[suchandra]

 

In reality the voice you hear while reading these words, is not under your control. Instead this voice is what controls you. This voice is paramatma, God.

 

 

 

Good points, I bow down to that King of Gurus! :pray::pray:

[sanatan]

 

In another thread a person was asking about the cause of a person pursuing a certain path even when that person had heard many arguments against following that path. ...

 

 

 

The basic idea which Kapiladev is trying to impart is that the “material” world exists for those whose consciousness is affected by ahankara. What he is saying is what Srila Prabhupada mentions in the above i.e. that the “material world” exists as a condition of the conditioned soul. For the person who is free from illusion, or the enlightened devotee, for them, the external energy of the Lord, or the “material” world, no longer exists. They exist in the spiritual world no matter where they are. ...

 

 

So to answer your question, the people who take up some type of sahajiya practice, do so because that is their karma. They do what they are forced to do. ...

 

If the effect of offenseless chanting of the Hare Krishna maha-mantra is the reduction to zero of all karmic influences and liberation from control of subtle material influences, including the mind, then the continued influence of such karma must be the result of long-unresolved or ongoing offense.

[Kulapavana]

Why do people do what they do?

 

Mostly because they like it.

 

Shiva-ji says: "So to answer your question, the people who take up some type of sahajiya practice, do so because that is their karma. They do what they are forced to do."

 

If you look still deeper, you will see that karma is a result of our desires. That voice within tells us how to fulfill them. We desire things we like, or think we would like.

 

Ultimately, at the very bottom of the cause-and-effect pile is our desire.

[theist]

 

Why do people do what they do?

 

Mostly because they like it.

 

Shiva-ji says: "So to answer your question, the people who take up some type of sahajiya practice, do so because that is their karma. They do what they are forced to do."

 

If you look still deeper, you will see that karma is a result of our desires. That voice within tells us how to fulfill them. We desire things we like, or think we would like.

 

Ultimately, at the very bottom of the cause-and-effect pile is our desire.

 

I was about to make the same point. Paramatma responds to our desires.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

So, does this all mean that we ought not to worry about who is a sahajiya (besides ourselves) and what they believe and why they believe it?

[Kulapavana]

 

So, does this all mean that we ought not to worry about who is a sahajiya (besides ourselves) and what they believe and why they believe it?

 

I worry that the word sahajiya is used in our movement as a weapon, without any regard for it's actual meaning. This process started long ago, but I believe we should go back to the original sense of this term. Outside the Saraswata parivar nobody is using this word in that way.

 

To me, imitating higher devotional sentiments has nothing to do with being a sahajiya. Devotee who prematurely thinks of himself as a gopi is a fool and a pretender, but he is not a sahajiya. There is a very, very fine line between imitation and striving to reach a higher platform.

 

As to real sahajiyas - there is simply no room for them in our parivar. They are much better off among their own people, at least if they are sincere in their desire for purification and admittance to Krsna lila. But if they are just lusty materialists looking for cheap kicks, they should drop all pretenses and join ranks with the rest of the sex crazed population instead of pretending to be spiritualists.

[sreeram]

 

Mostly because they like it.

 

 

 

If you look still deeper, you will see that karma is a result of our desires. That voice within tells us how to fulfill them. We desire things we like, or think we would like.

 

Why did arjuna killed karna. He was his brother. Why did arjuna killed bhishma and bhima killed kauravas.

They were doing their karma. So people are doing their karma. they are forced to do beacuse of thier sins from the past life or present life.

[Kulapavana]

 

Why did arjuna killed karna. He was his brother. Why did arjuna killed bhishma and bhima killed kauravas.

They were doing their karma. So people are doing their karma. they are forced to do beacuse of thier sins from the past life or present life.

 

Arjuna killed Karna because he liked the idea of justice and serving God in the execution of his social duties. It was a deliberate and free decision.

[krsna]

Is it DESIRE the only thing the jiva soul in this world can "do"?

 

That is to say, the minute particle of independnce afforded by KRSNA is either to accept the shelter of the internal pleasure giving potency of KRSNA or remain under the stringent laws, shackles of Maya. Choose!

 

Yes KRSNA, I'll serve you with love and devotion !

or No KRSNA I'll serve your maya in illusion, a slave to lust, anger, greed, etc... The choce is ours and simple...KRSNA or MAYA! Yes or No! The rest is all in KRSNA"s Hands...

[mahak]

cmon, sahajiyas are people, too. In fact, Srila Prabhupada taught me that to make offenses to sahajiyas is vaisnava aparadha.

 

We dont associate with em, but we dont slam em either, because they chant, and therefore, are engaged in yuga dharma.

[mahak]

oh to answer, because we want to. Compelled.

[sreeram]

 

Arjuna killed Karna because he liked the idea of justice and serving God in the execution of his social duties. It was a deliberate and free decision.

 

 

Then no one can blaim the alquaida and Taliban terrorists. They believe they are promoting terrorism (Jihad) for the sake of Allah.. and killing innocent people.

Yes in kurukshetra also a lot of innocents were killed.

Does this sounds like people are taking or involving god to justify their sins.

[Kulapavana]

 

Then no one can blaim the alquaida and Taliban terrorists. They believe they are promoting terrorism (Jihad) for the sake of Allah.. and killing innocent people.

Yes in kurukshetra also a lot of innocents were killed.

Does this sounds like people are taking or involving god to justify their sins.

 

There were no "innocents" killed at Kurukshetra. Name some for us. They were all professional soldiers tho took up positions on both sides without being forced by anyone. That makes them willing participants in the war.

 

Do not compare killing civilians who never wanted to be part of any war to the battle of Kurukshetra.

[sreeram]

Soldiers are also human beings. They participated in the war because they are forced to do that. A lot of people lost their son, husband, brother, and father in that war.

Don’t you think these people were innocents those who lost their beloved in this war.

[Kulapavana]

 

Soldiers are also human beings. They participated in the war because they are forced to do that. A lot of people lost their son, husband, brother, and father in that war.

Don’t you think these people were innocents those who lost their beloved in this war.

 

Nobody who willingly enters the battlefield as a soldier is "innocent". When you enter the battlefield with a weapon in and you are ready to kill and be killed.

 

Name one person in that story who was forced to fight. Before the battle it was customary among Aryans to call for all who do not want to fight to withdraw and leave the field.

 

Only barbaric people kill civilians or persons unwilling to fight. None of such things happened at Kurukshetra. The worst/lowest thing that happened there was killing of sleeping soldiers in the Pandava camp by Asvatthama and Kripa. Still, they only killed soldiers.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

 

IS GOD BAD?

 

 

Badger, CA USA, May 5, 2001

Tridandisvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja

 

First, I want to explain that dusanga, bad association, is very dangerous for any devotee. In that bad association so many varieties of doubts will come - doubts about devotees, about bhakti, and about Krsna and Mahaprabhu. They are bound to come if you are not in good association. Thus, gradually, you will go very far, far, far away from bhakti and you will be ruined. I want to caution you so that you will be aware of all these dangers.

Once, with all His queens, sons, daughters and all other relatives, Krsna came to Kuruksetra before the Mahabharata battle. So many emperors and kings from all over India assembled in Kuruksetra with their entire families, because at that time Kuruksetra was the prominent tirtha-sthali, holy place, of India. It is the place where Parasurama had performed many sacrifices, and the place where Prthu Maharaja delivered his father, King Vena, from his sinful reactions. All were assembled there, including the Pandavas, Mother Kunti, Draupadi, and Subhadra, and also including Bhisma-pitama and Duryodhana and all his relatives.

Somehow Nanda Baba heard that his dear son was going to Kuruksetra, and he therefore quickly announced to the Vrajabasis, "Tomorrow we will go by bullock cart with all our relatives. Only some old persons will remain behind to look after Vraja, and the rest of us should go." Thus all the gopis, Mother Yasoda, and everyone else went to Kuruksetra. After taking bath during the solar eclipse, everyone met with each other there, and all the pilgrims were donating whatever they had - golden ornaments, garments, and wealth.

After this Draupadi, Kunti, and others came to meet Vasudeva, the father of Krsna. Kunti was weeping very much and telling her brother, "Brother, why did you become so cruel? My sons were given poison, they were attacked by fire, and we were forced to go to the forest and give up our whole kingdom. We were all dying, but you never came to us. Why did you become so cruel?" Vasudeva Maharaja also began to weep, saying, "My dear sister, we were at that time in prison, and our six sons were killed there. This cruel Kamsa killed our sons and he was torturing us so greatly. How could we have come? We were bound under lock and key. At that time we sent Krsna to Gokula in order to save Him, when He was like a baby.

"Don't be worried about all these mishaps. We could not do anything. We were bound to tolerate all of these sufferings. My dear sister, try to realise this fact. We are puppets in the hands of Krsna. Although to some extent we are svatantra, independent to do anything new, we are bound to enjoy the fruits of our bad and good activities - we are bound to. Don't blame the supreme God or us."

We may think that Hitler was very cruel for putting so many Jews in jail. They were tortured so much - so much - and so many were killed. If God was there, why did He become cruel? Why didn't He stop that cruelty? A doubt may come as to why He allowed this to happen? So many doubts may come. If God was there, why did He become neutral? He should not have become so hard-hearted. If you are in any bad association, they will raise all these points and say, "There is no God at all. He is not merciful. He cannot do anything because He has no form, no hands, and no mind to think. He is nirguna, He is avyakta, He is nothing - zero. What, then, is the need of worshipping Him or accepting Him? We don't want to accept Him. Why could He not have stopped Hitler?"

All these questions have been answered in our scriptures. Why could Krsna not have stopped Him if He wished? Everything could have been totally stopped. We cannot do anything. As I said, we are like puppets. You can see this in Gita (18.61):

 

isvarah sarva-bhutanam

hrd-dese arjuna tisthati

bramayan sarva-bhutani

yantrarudhani mayaya

 

["The Supreme Lord is situated in everyone's heart, O Arjuna, and is directing the wanderings of all living entities who are seated as on a machine made of the material energy."]

Isvara, in the form of Paramatma, as a saksi, witness, is here. The jivas are standing on their karma-cakra. Just as a clay pot maker is spinning a wheel with a stick and so many pots are being made, we are all sitting on the results of the bad or good activities we have done in the past. That has become our karma-cakra.

Krsna is doing nothing. He is only witnessing. Whatever we are suffering and tasting is our own fault. It is due to our good and bad activities. Krsna is not responsible for our sufferings.

If someone kills a person in America, is the president of America, Mr. Bush, responsible for that murder or not? He has made rules and regulations against murder, and he has announced to everyone that they should not kill anyone. However, if someone does not obey, the police and the court are there to punish that person. In the same way, Krsna has announced in the Vedas, in sastra, and through devotees, that you should not do certain activities. If you do so anyway, you will be pulled onto the karma-cakra and you will have to suffer for your actions. Krsna is not responsible because He has warned you. The jivas have some independence to do what they like, but they are bound to enjoy the fruits of their activities.

Now you can take a look at the situation more clearly. Why was the father of the Supreme Lord Krsna suffering? We should try to understand why he was suffering. He is one of the associates of Krsna, and he has come with Him to this world to give many teachings. He was playing as an actor in Krsna's pastimes to establish dharma. Secondly, if someone is a bhagavad-bhakta, a devotee, he should have tolerance. If one is a devotee but has no tolerance, then he is not a pure devotee. One must be like Sri Haridasa Thakura, like Sri Prahlada Maharaja, and like Vasudeva Maharaja. They came as examples to show the whole world how to be tolerant.

Why did Vasudeva Maharaja tolerate so many difficulties? There are many reasons. When the voice from the sky announced that the eighth child of the womb of Devaki would kill Kamsa, he became upset and he wanted to kill Devaki - from whose womb the eighth child would come. He was in a dilemma. He heard the aerial voice and he believed that the eighth son would come and kill him, but still he wanted to make the prediction false. He thought, "I will kill Devaki, and thus there will be no womb to produce Him." He wanted to kill Devaki, but Vasudeva Maharaja had strong faith in Krsna and in what this aerial voice had said. He believed that Kamsa could not kill Devaki, that the eighth child would surely come, and that this eighth child would kill Kamsa.

As Vasudeva Maharaja had firm belief in this and was very confident, we too should be confident. If anyone will chant the name, hear the pastimes of Krsna, and do any service, he will never be able to be killed by anyone. We should have confidence like Vasudeva and learn this lesson.

There is something more to be said in this regard. Who were the six sons of Devaki? They were previously the sons of Marici Muni, who was a very high-class realised muni. His sons were in the council of Brahma, and they once criticised Brahma, who was a maha-bhagavata. For this offence, they had to come in the womb of the wife of Kalanemi, the grandson of Hiranyakasipu. By the fruit of their offence to a maha-bhagavata, Hiranyakasipu cursed them that they would be killed by their own father. After that Kalanemi became Kamsa and the six sons became the sons of Vasudeva, and they had to suffer at the hands of Kansa. We are not seeing that their suffering is coming from their past lives' offense. We are only seeing the events externally.

We should understand that those whom Hitler killed had performed many bad activities. They also must have killed many persons in some horrible way, and thus they took birth as Jews. Why were all Jews not killed? Many were killed, but others escaped and were saved. Why did everything happen in this way? Those who were killed were guilty for their own past activities. We are so foolish. We cannot imagine what they had done in their past lives. As a saksi, however, Krsna knows, and He thus arranged all these events because they had to be killed.

Now we are seeing that many cows in India and other countries are being slaughtered. Why? In a previous birth, as humans, they had eaten meat themselves, and now they are tasting the results of their bad activities. If one keeps bad association, one may think that all this killing is going on without reason. One may doubt God's fairness, and we should be very careful about this. Don't associate with those who have no bhakti. In Gita (4.40) it has also been said: samsayatma vinasyati. Those who have any doubt in Krsna, in His associates, and in bhakti will be destroyed very soon. We should be very, very careful about this.

Now I am coming to the main subject of my class. I want to speak about the glorification of Srila Haridasa Thakura. He was born as a Muslim, but in reality he was both Brahma and Prahlada Maharaja. They both wanted to come and serve Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and so they came by the wish of Krsna. Though Haridasa Thakura was a Muslim, still he had so much faith in harinama. He was chanting the name from the beginning of his life.

Who was his gurudeva? He really did not have a gurudeva, but his gurudeva was Advaita Acarya - Maha-Visnu, because He is superior to Brahma. When Haridasa Thakura was in his native place, everyone was very much attracted to him. He was renounced, wearing only dor kopin and nothing else, and he was always chanting harinama. From the beginning he was chanting three lakhas of names. Some names he chanted loudly, some he chanted very softly so that only he himself could hear, and some he chanted by mind. Sometimes he chanted without a mala, dancing and rolling down on the earth, day and night, and in this way he would complete three lakhas of names daily. All common persons became very attracted to him. In fact, they used to give him so much respect that the king of that place, Ramacandra Khana, became upset.

The king thought, "I am the king of this place, but no one respects me as they do him. He is a Muslim, and yet everyone is honoring him." He called a very beautiful teenage prostitute and said, "I will give you half my kingdom and wealth if you can deviate that Haridasa Thakura."

The prostitute replied, "Oh, don't worry. In a moment I can entice him. Give me some time. He is chaste, but as soon as he sees me, his chastity will go away. So give me time."

Thus, one night, she went to Haridasa Thakura's kutira. He was alone in the night. It was purnima and there was a cool breeze on the bank of the Ganges. He had a Tulasi plant which he used to worship daily, and he used to chant harinama the whole day in his cave under the shelter of that Tulasi. Being half-naked, sometimes revealing even more, and alluring him with so many poses, the prostitute tried very intently to attract Haridasa Thakura. He told that prostitute, "I will obey you. I will fulfill your desire, but let me finish my task to chant one crore harinama -10 million names."

Some say he was chanting 3 lakhs, but actually, since he was chanting the whole day and night, he must have been doing 4 or 5 lakhs. He said, "I have taken a vow for this. You should wait. Sit here, and when I finish I must obey you. I must fulfill your desire."

The prostitute sat down and waited, but when the morning came she returned to the king. He asked, "Have you been successful?"

"I must be successful," she replied, "Today he has promised to serve me."

She came again the next evening and stayed throughout the whole night. Haridasa Thakura said, "Oh, you should wait a little. Very soon I am going to complete my chanting."

Thus, when the third night came, she was totally changed by hearing suddha-name from a high-class devotee. At once she fell flat at the lotus feet of Haridasa Thakura and said, "I came by the order of the king. He is a very bad person. He is envious and does not want anyone else to be honored. That is why I came to you, but I have been changed now. I am offensive. I was so lusty, but now I want to take the shelter of your lotus feet."

Then Haridasa Thakura told her, "At once return to your home, and, whatever money you have collected from your work as a prostitute, distribute to the greedy brahmanas. Kali-yuga brahmanas will gladly take these things."

She went home and then, with only one ordinary white cloth, she returned to the lotus feet of Haridasa Thakura. He said, "I knew what was going on, but I remained here three days for you. I would have gone, but only to purify you I stayed here. I am giving you my asrama, my Tulasi plant, and my cottage on the bank of the Ganges. You should stay here. Don't go anywhere. Many people will come and offer you so many donations, so many kinds of preparations of prasadam, and other things. You should not accept these. Accept only what you need to maintain your life, and nothing else. Stay here, and everything will come to you."

Many high-class Vaisnavas began to come there, to see how this prostitute had now been transformed. She had become like a maha-bhagavata by her association with Haridasa Thakura, who was a very high-class devotee. He was Brahma plus Prahlada Maharaja, and he came as an associate of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. In our next class we will glorify him further. So many teachings are found in his life, and an entire Mahabharata can be written about him - a large Mahabharata.

Now you should prepare for the drama.

Devotee: You said earlier that so many people were put to death by Hitler. They were put to death because of their past activities. But a personality like Hitler, who was inflicting the punishment, did he create bad karma for his activities?

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Yes, he was punished at once. He commited sucide.

Devotee: Also, for so many lives he will have to suffer.

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Yes, so many - for them.

Devotee: Who is the istadeva of Haridasa Thakura?

Srila Narayana Maharaja: The worshipful Deity of Brahma is Garbodakasayi Visnu.

[sreeram]

God has the power to distroy or kill enything, Then why this much people involved in this war. Why only psandavas and asvathama only left alive after the war.

[Kulapavana]

 

God has the power to distroy or kill enything, Then why this much people involved in this war. Why only psandavas and asvathama only left alive after the war.

 

Read this thread from the top.

[sreeram]

That is waht I was saying

They were doing their karma. So people are doing their karma. they are forced to do beacuse of thier sins from the past life or present life.

 

No one can change that even god..

[Kulapavana]

Karma is merely a result of our desires and taste (likes and dislikes).

[Beggar]

 

That is waht I was saying

 

No one can change that even god..

 

Krsna Book Chapt. 24

 

With this purpose in mind, Krsna began to talk as if He were an atheist supporting the philosophy of Karma-mImamsa. Advocates of this philosophy do not accept the supreme authority of the Personality of Godhead. They put forward the argument that if anyone works nicely, the result is sure to come. Their opinion is that even if there is a God who gives man the result of his fruitive activities, there is no need to worship Him because unless man works He cannot bestow any good result. They say that instead of worshiping a demigod or God, people should give attention to their own duties, and thus the good result will surely come. Lord Krsna began to speak to His father according to these principles of the Karma-mImamsa philosophy. “My dear father,” He said, “I don’t think you need to worship any demigod for the successful performance of your agricultural activities. Every living being is born according to his past karma and leaves this life simply taking the result of his present karma. Everyone is born in different types or species of life according to his past activities, and he gets his next birth according to the activities of this life. Different grades of material happiness and distress, comforts and disadvantages of life, are different results of different kinds of activities, from either the past or present life.”

 

Krsna Book Chapt. 87

 

One class of philosophers, known as Mimamsakas, represented by sages such as Jaimini, have concluded that everyone should be engaged in pious activities or prescribed duties and that such activities will lead one to the highest perfection. But this is contradicted in the Ninth Chapter of Bhagavad-gita, where Lord Krsna says that by pious activities one may be elevated to the heavenly planets, but as soon as one's accumulation of pious activities is used up, one has to leave the enjoyment of a higher standard of material prosperity in the heavenly planets and immediately come down again to these lower planets, where the duration of life is very short and where the standard of material happiness is of a lower grade. The exact words used in the Gita are ksine punye martya-lokam visanti. Therefore the conclusion of the Mimamsaka philosophers, that pious activities will lead one to the Absolute Truth, is not valid. Although a pure devotee is by nature inclined to pious activities, no one can attain the favor of the Supreme Personality of Godhead by pious activities alone. Pious activities may purify one of the contamination caused by ignorance and passion, but this is automatically attained by a devotee who is constantly engaged in hearing the transcendental message of Godhead in the form of the Bhagavad-gita, Srimad-Bhagavatam or similar scriptures. From the Bhagavad-gita we understand that even a person who is not up to the standard of pious activities but who is absolutely engaged in devotional service is to be considered well situated on the path of spiritual perfection. It is also said in the Bhagavad-gita that a person who is engaged in devotional service with love and faith is guided from within by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The Lord Himself as Paramatma, or the spiritual master sitting within one's heart, gives the devotee exact directions by which he can gradually go back to Godhead. The conclusion of the Mimamsaka philosophers is not actually the truth which can lead one to real understanding.