Hindu Pujari, Hindu Cook

[theist]

Who are our anscestors? The person born in India today may have born in Kenya or Europe in last birth and he may be desitined for Mexico in his next. Souls are coming and going from one species to another, from one country to another, from heaven to hell and this has been going on for millions of births. So again I ask who are our anscestors?

 

Only a matrerially conditioned mind will seriously occupy itself with such a frivolous question. The transcendentalists knows his source is One and the Vaisnava knows that One as Krsna the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

What is the value of any other so-called anscestor?

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam

 

If a personality no less then Arjun is worried about the ancestors who am I to question its value?

 

With the destruction of the family, the eternal family traditions are destroyed, and immorality prevails due to the destruction of family traditions. (1.40)

 

And when immorality prevails, O Krishna, the women of the family become corrupted; when women are corrupted, social problems arise. (1.41)

 

This brings the family and the slayers of the family to hell, because the spirits of their ancestors are degraded when deprived of ceremonial offerings of rice-ball and water. (1.42)

 

I can only speak of my ancestors and those who upheld that Hindu Dharma, in the land of Bharat, under extreme difficulties. It source is no less than the supreme lord from whom the Vedas were revealed, I am born in that tradition of those rishis to whom the Vedas were revealed , if I am fortunate to constantly occupy my self in thinking of those noble souls I consider my self fortunate and if I were to emulate their success, than my supreme goal is reached.That is the value of tradition, walk the path of dharma.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

 

 

 

[theist]

Gangaprasad, You present Arjuna's doubts when he was bewildered as to his duty. You have to look past this stage and to the answers that Krsna gives him to resolve his doubts. It is those answers which take us from the worldly plane of false attachments and establishes us in the trancendent self.

 

We should not stop short of the goal thinking "my ancestorsyour ancestors". There is only one common source for all living beings. This is a basic understanding of Krsna consciousness, a foundation point which cannot be neglected.

[indulekhadasi]

 

There are many examples establishing varna was by birth only.

 

Karna lied to Parashurama about his varna as Parashurama hated Kshatriyas. He told him he was a Brahmin. How did Prashurama determine his varna? It was by ancestry...not through an aptitude test taken by Karna. After the bee incident again Karna's varna is correctly established by his birth. Traditional temples in India which have been existing since long ago identify Brahmins by gotra and other details which are not available to one who has converted unless he is making up a false id.

 

It is possible that some recent religious factions may think they understand the varna system better than Parashurama and better than what Indians have followed for thousands of years. Like some people think without evidence christians were meant to to be vegetarians though in practice christians have not been vegetarians for 2000 years.

 

The best thing to do is to ignore such radical views.

 

Not true. Karna was being bitten by a scorpion but did not budge because his teacher was taking rest. When Parshuram found out then he understood Karna was a ksatriya due to his immense power of tolerating.

 

There is no value in being a smarta brahmana. Even I am a descendent of Sandilya Muni, but there is no value in that. Character matters. Maharaja Yudhisthira said so himself. Since I have the mentality of a sudra, how can I be called a brahmana?

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam

 

 

Gangaprasad, You present Arjuna's doubts when he was bewildered as to his duty. You have to look past this stage and to the answers that Krsna gives him to resolve his doubts. It is those answers which take us from the worldly plane of false attachments and establishes us in the trancendent self.

 

We should not stop short of the goal thinking "my ancestorsyour ancestors". There is only one common source for all living beings. This is a basic understanding of Krsna consciousness, a foundation point which cannot be neglected.

 

Sure but these were not Arjuns doubts he was stating facts, which Krishna did not refute, besides my stating of those verse were only in response to your statement (What is the value of any other so-called anscestor?)

 

I come from a culture were we respect our parents for they are our first guru what they learned from their folks and it goes back all the way.

They laid down the path for us to follow. The social fabric of any society breaks down without the culture.

It is easy to state the final goal, which is well understood but very hard act to follow, unless the foundation laid is strong, following the path of dharma.

Offering prayers and performing rights to ancestors are very much a duty in Vedic culture. We follow those ancestors of ours who trod the path of Dharma,

Lord Krishna confirms this.

evam jnatva krtam karma

purvair api mumuksubhih

kuru karmaiva tasmat tvam

purvaih purvataram krtam

 

The ancient seekers of liberation also performed their duties with this understanding. Therefore, you should do your duty as the ancients did. (4.15).

 

Jai Shree Krishna

[theist]

OK worship the ancestors of your present birth.

 

I choose to focus on the fact that I have no birth, in any land, and that my only source is Krsna.

 

Hare Krsna

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam

 

I respect your choice and I hope your focus remain firm and reach Krishna the source.

 

Unfortunately I can not pretend I have no birth, until such time I realised that fact I hope I can do justice to my ancestors, offer my respect and tread the same path of dharma they laid to reach the same source.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

[Guest]

Very true. I too agree with you thiest.

[raghu]

 

There are many examples establishing varna was by birth only.

 

Not birth only. One must have the birth, and one must have the right conduct, to be considered to belong to a specific varna. Otherwise, one's classification as belonging to this or that varna is in name only.

 

There are rare examples of one being converted to a varna that is different than the one of his birth. These are unusual. The wholesale conversion of mlecchas into "brahmin" caste in iskcon is a relatively new phenomenon.

[matarisvan]

 

Not birth only. One must have the birth, and one must have the right conduct, to be considered to belong to a specific varna. Otherwise, one's classification as belonging to this or that varna is in name only.

 

There are rare examples of one being converted to a varna that is different than the one of his birth. These are unusual. The wholesale conversion of mlecchas into "brahmin" caste in iskcon is a relatively new phenomenon.

 

Right conduct is not easy to ascertain. Even if some Brahmin is found wanting of Brahmin qualities there is no tradition of taking away his thread and transferring him to a different Varna. Traditionally, good or bad, the Varna we are born into is our Varna through life. Take the example of the fallen iskcon gurus. They showed enough promise initially to convince Prabhupada that they could take over the origanization and then what happened?

 

We can offer due respect to a non-brahmin who displays brahmin qualities and condemn a brahmin for not sizing up but that will not result in changing varnas.

 

It is funny that for someone like the gaudiyas who claim to be on a transcendaental level above Hinduism and everything else to be hung up on labels like Vaishnava and Brahmin. To me they are engaging in hypocrital doublespeak.

[raghu]

 

Right conduct is not easy to ascertain.

I would not say that. The dharma-shastras are very clear on what is and is not proper conduct.

 

 

Even if some Brahmin is found wanting of Brahmin qualities there is no tradition of taking away his thread and transferring him to a different Varna.

I agree, or at least I am not aware of such a tradition.

 

 

Traditionally, good or bad, the Varna we are born into is our Varna through life.

In most cases, this has historically been the case. Arjuna was not allowed to leave the battlefield. Sri Krishna instructed him that it is better to do his own duty improperly than to adopt the duties of another.

 

 

Take the example of the fallen iskcon gurus. They showed enough promise initially to convince Prabhupada that they could take over the origanization and then what happened?

What to speak of the ones who are still in the organization and looking the other way when all sorts of bogus ideas are being promoted...

 

 

It is funny that for someone like the gaudiyas who claim to be on a transcendaental level above Hinduism and everything else to be hung up on labels like Vaishnava and Brahmin. To me they are engaging in hypocrital doublespeak.

 

Ultimately it does not matter whether they are "Hindu" or not. I look past the labels and see if they practice what they preach. When you hear all this talk about "bona fide parampara" and "passing down the teachings unchanged" you get a hint of authenticity. But then you see them making up fables about Jesus, Mohammed, etc then their deviation becomes obvious.