fighting destiny

[nitesh]

Hare Krishna

If everything is prewritten meaning whatever meant to happen will happen then whats karma and fruits of karma ? If someone is destined to be killed by the hands of some other person how come that becomes the sin for the murderer as it was already written in his destiny. Please clarify.

[shvu]

 

Hare Krishna

If everything is prewritten meaning whatever meant to happen will happen then whats karma and fruits of karma ? If someone is destined to be killed by the hands of some other person how come that becomes the sin for the murderer as it was already written in his destiny. Please clarify.

 

Yeah....the million dollar question and I am afraid there is no answer to that question.

 

Krishna says what you do not wish to do you will do in spite of yourself...I am sitting in your heart and controlling your actions meaning Arjuna has no choice in the matter. On the other hand he also engages in a long lecture to prod Arjuna to act implying Arjuna has a choice.

 

So does Arjuna and in general anyone have a choice to shape the future or is it all predetermined?

 

You will find support for both positions in the BG because (my opinion) the author pulled up information from 2 different sources and put them together which he should not have. or he just did not know how to present the topic. Anyway, what is done is done and you can read it whichever way you want.

 

I am inclined towards the "no choice" approach. The older I get, I think freewill is only apparent and we are on automatic moving in some random fashion. If you sit back and think , how much of your life is really under your control? The way I see it, it is a very small fraction. A good example is driving' for me to drive home from work, I pass a thousand cars or more. The event of me arriving safely is not just dependant on me driving correctly; all the thousand other drivers should drive correctly too. If you analyze this way, there are a million things that can go wrong each day. For all these million to not go wrong is weird and yet it happens implying life is on automatic.

 

I think the BG author may have had something like this in mind (Krishna telling Arjuna that all these people have already been killed...), but the difference is he mapped this to religion and I cannot do that because I cannot prove any of it - even to myself.

 

Enough rambling...have a nice day!

 

Cheers

[yogesh]

 

Hare Krishna

If everything is prewritten meaning whatever meant to happen will happen then whats karma and fruits of karma ? If someone is destined to be killed by the hands of some other person how come that becomes the sin for the murderer as it was already written in his destiny. Please clarify.

Yes question on destiny is very complex as shvu indicates.

 

As I understand From the Bagavad Gita, we have been given free will or "independence". What does the "independence/freedom of choice" mean??

 

Well as I understand from the Gita we have only 2 "Freedom of choice"

 

One is that we can let ourself be fully controlled by Prakriti (material modes of nature/Maya)

 

The other is to surrender to the will/guidance of Krsna.

 

Then we add to this mix our destiny/karma.

 

In the Gita it is written that Karma is not permanent. We can reduce the impact of certain karmic reactions by taking Guidance of various instruments of guidance made available by Lord Krsna/Sriman Mahaprabhu.

 

But the "Choice" is still ours how eager are you???? To have a positive impact on your destiny. We are not mindless Automated Robots. We have been given inteligence To make a positive impact on destiny!!!!

 

It is in your hands!!!!!!

 

You have to make the first step. You have already made an impact on your destiny by joining this forum and reading what all the devotees have to say and by using your inteligence make that change!!!!!

 

Use your "independence" wisely:idea:

 

Hare Krsna/Krishna

 

Jay Sirla Prabhupada

[nitesh]

Hare Krishna,

 

I'm still confused. There has to be a specific answer, afterall ours is the oldest religion in the world.

 

I believe there are a few things in life which are pre determined but again a lot of events occur because of our present karmas.

 

Its hard to believe that each and everything is pre determined otherwise there would be no karmas. So, I think a person's life is mixed with some pre determined events (probably based on previous life's karmas) and results of present life's karmas.

 

Thats just my thinking, I maybe totally wrongs. Still looking for a solid answer.

 

Hare Krishna

[theist]

Of course there is an answer. The problem is our capacity to understand that answer. The intricacies of the interplay between prarabdha-karma (destiny) and our free will is taking place but in a way that is beyond our grasp.

 

Picture an ant eating the sugar from a fallen fruit on the ground. What does he know of the processes that caused that fruit to appear there at that time as well as himself. The genesis of the tree from a seed to the flowering of the tree and then the fruit appearing and falling along with all his own wanderings from here to there is totally unfathomable to him.

 

Know this. What we sow we must also reap. We have all sown didn't karmic seeds and are reaping different harvests therefore we must have use of free will or why are there different karmas.

 

We must leave the details to God and those who serve Him by arranging these universal affairs.

[bhaktajan]

 

If everything is prewritten meaning whatever meant to happen will happen then whats karma and fruits of karma ? If someone is destined to be killed by the hands of some other person how come that becomes the sin for the murderer as it was already written in his destiny. Please clarify. — nitesh

a) Where is it prewritten? Where is the scriptural verses describing all the mundane future destinies of every individual?

The future is designed in the present:

Future airplane schedules.

Future college courses.

Future wedding invitations.

Future football contests.

Future morning constitutions.

Future ending of a symphony concert.

These are predictable future occurrences.

All of these require everyone to perform their allotted duties (dharmas) in sync with one another. 'It's not weather you win or lose but how you play the game'.

What is happening is that Kali-yuga is twisting the intelligence of thought-full people. The lexicon of society is filled with such oxymoronic terminology—advertising shows foolish and dreadfulness as a means to attract business; newspapers sell when scandals are on the front page; a firemen gains sustenance from the Sunday barbeque of carcasses; doctors sell drugs; teachers teach avidya; scientists propagate lust for mis-using nature . . . all of these are examples of ugra-karma (nasty karmic re-actions)

 

Krsna and Arjuna's pastimes are above and beyond the ordinary course of actions.

If a policeman sees a criminal in the midst of a crime the policeman may think, 'the victim is suffering their karmic-reaction to a past deed' yet, it is not the dharma of the policeman to hesitate in saving the victim and arresting the criminal, or else the policeman is negligent in performing his duty.

Arjuna, on the battlefield, was on the verge of neglecting his duty so Krsna [who wouldn't have miss the action for all the world] advised Arjuna. Thus, we are compelled to do as Krsna advises in the Gita 13.8-12, to attain knowledge and detachment so as to become a gentleman.

 

ys,

bhaktajan

[sopatel]

I would say that our lives are to an extent predetermined by our karmas. In this life we were born with a clean slate for our current image but what about the centuries of crap we probably pulled. I understand what your trying to ask because some people say that life is predetermined and then there is the law of karma. As far as how you will die and who you will run into is destiny but the destiny made by your own past deeds. In this life you do have a choice. Some persons, event, and problems are unavoidable because God wants you to pay for them and go back to him. But tomorrows destiny is written by you.

We use the Bhagvad Gita as many of the examples on this board, it is said that all those who took part in that war had death predestined but thats not the important part. It was where there mind and soul was. For example we have Bishmapitah who was obligated to fight the oposition but in the end attained liberation simply because he accepted the glory of the Lord and his mind and blessing followed the path of truth.

This question is a catch 22 type of inquiry, its hard for our beginners minds to comprehend.

 

Hope this helps a bit.

 

Jai Shri Krishna

[theist]

 

But tomorrows destiny is written by you.

Yes! Our futures are being written and rewritten at every moment....like this one.

[shvu]

 

Of course there is an answer. The problem is our capacity to understand that answer. The intricacies of the interplay between prarabdha-karma (destiny) and our free will is taking place but in a way that is beyond our grasp.

 

If you will forgive me for saying this, you sound like a proselytizer ought to win some popularity votes.

 

A: "Pray to the Lord my child"

B: "I did, but they are not answered"

A: "Pray harder..you are not doing it right"

B: "I did, but they are still not answered"

A: "Try harder..you are not being sincere"

B: "I did, but they are still not answered"

A: "Its your own fault..."

 

Back to the topic, it has been thousands of years now and the free-will/God's will paradox has never been addressed by any religious author or thinker. It has always been left to the imagination of the questioner. If an answer to that question was possible, we would have had it now. There is no reason why it has to be kept in suspense. Hence, there is no answer to that question and will never be.

 

Being bound by your own duty born of nature, O son of Kunti, you, being helpless, will verily do that which you do not wish to do owing to indiscrimination. - BG 18.60 (18.61 in some texts)

 

O Arjuna, the Lord resides in the region of the heart of all creatures, revolving through Maya all the creatures (as though) mounted on a machine! - BG 18.61 (18.62 in some)

 

That says it all. If you are mounted on a machine, what scope do you have for your own will?

 

Cheers

[Beggar]

 

Back to the topic, it has been thousands of years now and the free-will/God's will paradox has never been addressed by any religious author or thinker. It has always been left to the imagination of the questioner. If an answer to that question was possible, we would have had it now. There is no reason why it has to be kept in suspense.

 

God acts in mysterious ways.

[shvu]

 

God acts in mysterious ways.

 

or there is no answer to the question.

 

Cheers

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

or there is no answer to the question.

 

Cheers

 

None that will satisfy the rationalist/materialist.

 

There are plenty of answers for the surrendered/faithful.

[theist]

Yes shvu, just because you don't know no one can know. You must think yourself seated on the pinnacle of the tower of wisdom.

 

What I said is that we as humans are not capable of understanding the intricacies of the answer. But there are far greater intellects then humans in the universe who can understand the interplay of karma and free will. Does that surprise you for some reason? Seems so.

[shvu]

 

Yes shvu, just because you don't know no one can know. You must think yourself seated on the pinnacle of the tower of wisdom.

 

I have no objections to that. Sometimes these discussions give me the feeling my presence on this earth is solely to educate the Hare Krishnas to think for themselves instead of turning their brains off and acting as repeaters. It sounds pompous, but I see that as a good thing to show you guys the light. Besides, I do not have to wear the cloak of humility as I do not have religious goals in life.

 

 

What I said is that we as humans are not capable of understanding the intricacies of the answer. But there are far greater intellects then humans in the universe who can understand the interplay of karma and free will. Does that surprise you for some reason? Seems so.

 

Completely out of scope. The people discussing on this forum are humans and their source of information is from other humans. Non-human entities who may know more or not are of no relevance here and to be honest even if one assumes the existence of such entities, you have no way of knowing if they know the answer to that or any other question.

 

The point is simple. None of the leading literature like the Gita, Bible, Koran, etc., address the difference between God's will/free will.

 

I for sometime have been thinking there is no freewill. Strangely, this morning I stumble upon this article which appears to corroborate the idea. It is the tattavada interpretation of Gita 5.14 and 5.15. I had goosebumps reading it.

 

http://www.dvaita.org/shaastra/gita/bg514.html

 

Cheers

[theist]

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by theist

Yes shvu, just because you don't know no one can know. You must think yourself seated on the pinnacle of the tower of wisdom.

</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

I have no objections to that. Sometimes these discussions give me the feeling my presence on this earth is solely to educate the Hare Krishnas to think for themselves instead of turning their brains off and acting as repeaters. It sounds pompous, but I see that as a good thing to show you guys the light. Besides, I do not have to wear the cloak of humility as I do not have religious goals in life.

 

 

 

 

 

The Fool in the Hole thinks himself the Fool on the Hill.

[nitesh]

 

None that will satisfy the rationalist/materialist.

 

There are plenty of answers for the surrendered/faithful.

 

Asking a question to know about something doesn't make someone materialist. Thats not important what you are asking whats important in why you are asking. If God has given you the knowledge and if you are surrendered you must have plenty of answers including answer to this question. I may not be the surrendered one yet but I read each and every post with a very open mind.

 

What you said was right but only for those people who ask questions not for their knowledge but to criticise or to play word games.

 

I would love to see the answer from you as I am having a feeling that you know it but you didn't posted it thinking that I wouldn't understand as I'm not a surrendered soul.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Well, you asked for a specific answer. I don't see the answer as being yes/no--we do have free will or we don't.

 

There are lots of useful analogies, though. I like the analogy of the cell in the body. The cell is somewhat independent, but it is part of an organic whole. A blood cell can exist for a short while outside of the body before dying--it can exist for a long while if it is frozen.

 

If a cell is not serving the body, then it is struggling futilely. If a cell becomes cancerous, the white blood cells will neutralize it.

 

We have infinitessimal free will. That means that it so small as to be almost insignificant. We are so conditioned by so many lifetimes of mundane experience. We are subject to so many mundane forces. Still, regardless, we ought to use our small bit of free will wisely.

 

There is also the "butterfly's wings" phenomena. It is said that a butterfly flapping its wings in China can cause a Hurricane in the Western Atlantic. Sometimes, a very small action has a tremendous and unexpected effect, so, even though we are small, it behooves us to be mindful about what we say and do.

 

That's not much, I know, but I hope it helps.

 

 

Asking a question to know about something doesn't make someone materialist. Thats not important what you are asking whats important in why you are asking. If God has given you the knowledge and if you are surrendered you must have plenty of answers including answer to this question. I may not be the surrendered one yet but I read each and every post with a very open mind.

 

What you said was right but only for those people who ask questions not for their knowledge but to criticise or to play word games.

 

I would love to see the answer from you as I am having a feeling that you know it but you didn't posted it thinking that I wouldn't understand as I'm not a surrendered soul.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

One more little bit...

 

The "time" factor. "Destiny" only has any meaning when we look at time as being linear.

 

In the "eternal present", how can we talk of destiny?

[Beggar]

 

One more little bit...

 

The "time" factor. "Destiny" only has any meaning when we look at time as being linear.

 

In the "eternal present", how can we talk of destiny?

 

This should show Sarva gattah that he does not have a monopoly on the "eternal present" concept.

[nitesh]

 

There are lots of useful analogies, though. I like the analogy of the cell in the body. The cell is somewhat independent, but it is part of an organic whole. A blood cell can exist for a short while outside of the body before dying--it can exist for a long while if it is frozen.

 

If a cell is not serving the body, then it is struggling futilely. If a cell becomes cancerous, the white blood cells will neutralize it.

 

We have infinitessimal free will. That means that it so small as to be almost insignificant. We are so conditioned by so many lifetimes of mundane experience. We are subject to so many mundane forces. Still, regardless, we ought to use our small bit of free will wisely.

 

There is also the "butterfly's wings" phenomena. It is said that a butterfly flapping its wings in China can cause a Hurricane in the Western Atlantic. Sometimes, a very small action has a tremendous and unexpected effect, so, even though we are small, it behooves us to be mindful about what we say and do.

 

That's not much, I know, but I hope it helps.

 

I get your point but when you think practically considering present day activities its a bit hard to absorb. I'll give you a practical example. Few years ago when I was in India, studying, a lot of astrologers told me a few things like I'll settle in abroad, I'll work in electonic field (thats when I was in India) and during the course of time I was told like when will I get married etc. and those things came out to be true. Now if that was meant to happen what control do I have on my karmas or what difference does it make that what type of karmas do i do.

 

This was only related to me. Take another example. Say I was driving and a small pup came under the tyres of my car and died. Was that his destiny or I did a bad karma? If that was his destiny, I shouldn't be punished, but does that happen?

 

For some bad karmas its pretty straight forward answer like say if you steal and get caught, you'll be punished. So there you get the fruits of your karmas but if you a leading a normal life with normal everyday activities like going to work, shopping etc., what future are you building on the basis of those karmas? But when I look at my life, you are building a future, there is a future already built, I don't know on the basis of what, maybe previous life karmas. If its built on previous life karmas then I'm even more confused because I've heard and read that after death the soul goes to heaven or hell and get the fruits of its deeds.

 

Hare Krishna

[BhaktiK]

 

Hare Krishna

If everything is prewritten meaning whatever meant to happen will happen then whats karma and fruits of karma ? If someone is destined to be killed by the hands of some other person how come that becomes the sin for the murderer as it was already written in his destiny. Please clarify.

 

 

Bhagavad Gita Chapter 18, Verse 13-14.

O mighty-armed Arjuna, learn from Me of the five factors which bring about the accomplishment of all action. These are declared in sankhya philosophy to be the place of action, the performer, the senses, the endeavor, and ultimately Destiny (Daivam - Fate, Destiny or Nature).

 

Bhagavad Gita Chapter 18, Verse 15.

Whatever right or wrong action a man performs by body, mind or speech is caused by these five factors.

 

Bhagavad Gita Chapter 18, Verse 16.

Therefore one who thinks himself the only doer, not considering the five factors, is certainly not very intelligent and cannot see things as they are.

 

 

People are not entirely responsible for what goes on in their life. It is not that the karma from our past completely shapes our present life. Five factors affect what happens to a person and the performer (the person) is only one part of the jigsaw puzzle. The person is locked in to a system where he is affected by the place (environment), the senses (including the desires he feeels, etc), and the endeavour (cestah).

 

A person may be doing something that is apparently bad but if his endeavour is good then he will get a different result from someone who is endeavouring for material purposes. As for instance when the sage Parasara was journeying across the Ganga and saw that if he made a baby with the girl driving his boat then the child born of that union would be a great sage (Vyasa was born of that union).