Question on the gunas

[Sean McHugh]

I wonder if you can add anything to this. Gita 2:45 of course says 'be without the three gunas', these being the three basic forms or tendencies of relative, material nature.

 

However once we are established in divine consciousness, separated from the realm of the gunas doing its own thing beneath us, our thought and action comes from Nature- which is expressed by the gunas.

 

My understanding is that the distinction here is between an affected and unaffected relation with the gunas, perhaps either maya or one-pointedness. 4:20 speaks of even in the midst of activity 'he does not act at all'- ie being on the level of the gunas of Nature action is necessarily perfect, but if the Self is attached to the senses and lost in their objects, we need to 'be without' the gunas.

[AncientMariner]

 

I wonder if you can add anything to this. Gita 2:45 of course says 'be without the three gunas', these being the three basic forms or tendencies of relative, material nature.

 

However once we are established in divine consciousness, separated from the realm of the gunas doing its own thing beneath us, our thought and action comes from Nature- which is expressed by the gunas.

 

My understanding is that the distinction here is between an affected and unaffected relation with the gunas, perhaps either maya or one-pointedness. 4:20 speaks of even in the midst of activity 'he does not act at all'- ie being on the level of the gunas of Nature action is necessarily perfect, but if the Self is attached to the senses and lost in their objects, we need to 'be without' the gunas.

 

 

Don't know for sure but I think if you get the favor of Krishna like Jesus and Arjuna did you are essentially supernatural and unaffected by the onslaught of material nature. The Bhagavad Gita aims at getting people beyond the onslaught of material nature and into supernatural contact with Krishna.

[matarisvan]

 

I wonder if you can add anything to this. Gita 2:45 of course says 'be without the three gunas', these being the three basic forms or tendencies of relative, material nature.

However once we are established in divine consciousness, separated from the realm of the gunas doing its own thing beneath us, our thought and action comes from Nature- which is expressed by the gunas.

My understanding is that the distinction here is between an affected and unaffected relation with the gunas, perhaps either maya or one-pointedness. 4:20 speaks of even in the midst of activity 'he does not act at all'- ie being on the level of the gunas of Nature action is necessarily perfect, but if the Self is attached to the senses and lost in their objects, we need to 'be without' the gunas.

 

traigunyavishayaa vedaa nistraigunyo bhavaarjuna

nirdvandvo nityasattvastho niryogakshema aatmavaan

 

This is Gita 2.45. As noted by many commentators this verse has some confusing language. It tells Arjuna to be free of the three Gunas and simulatenously tells hims to be established in sattva guna. The usage of traiguna in relation to the veda is interpreted not literally as three gunas but as material life led according to vedic injunctions where all the three gunas are present. Krishna tells Arjuna to go beyond this and situate himself in only Sattva Guna which is freedom from material ties. It is not to be interpreted as Krishna telling Arjuna to be free from all the three Gunas.

[Beggar]

SRIMAD BHAGAVAD-GITA The Hidden Treasure of the Sweet Absolute Srimad Bhakti Raksaka Sridhara Deva Goswami Maharaja,

2.45) O Arjuna, when defining nondevotional paths based on action and knowledge, the Vedas deal with the three modes of material nature. Foolish men, whose intelligence is covered by exploitation and renunciation, engage themselves in the cultivation of action and knowledge. Thus, they remain in ignorance of the principal object aimed at by the Vedas, which is transcendence beyond the three modes of material nature. But Arjuna, you be free from duality, live in the association of My eternal devotees, and give up all pursuits for gain and preservation. Then by buddhi-yoga, dedicating your intelligence to Me, reach that plane which is free from material qualities, and situate yourself in that transcendence which is the object of the Vedas. In other words, withdrawing yourself from the cultivation of action and knowledge, engage exclusively in the path of devotion as commanded by the Vedas.

[AncientMariner]

 

traigunyavishayaa vedaa nistraigunyo bhavaarjuna

nirdvandvo nityasattvastho niryogakshema aatmavaan

 

This is Gita 2.45. As noted by many commentators this verse has some confusing language. It tells Arjuna to be free of the three Gunas and simulatenously tells hims to be established in sattva guna. The usage of traiguna in relation to the veda is interpreted not literally as three gunas but as material life led according to vedic injunctions where all the three gunas are present. Krishna tells Arjuna to go beyond this and situate himself in only Sattva Guna which is freedom from material ties. It is not to be interpreted as Krishna telling Arjuna to be free from all the three Gunas.

 

 

What you wrote doesn't seem to jive with my understanding of Prabhupadas books.

[Shakti-Fan]

Srimad Bhagavad-Gita

Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja,

2.45) O Arjuna, rise above the modes described in the

Vedas and become established in nirguna-tattva. Be

free from all dualities such as honour and dishonour,

and do not worry about profit and loss. Become situated

in suddha-sattva by using the intelligence awarded by Me.

SÄRÄRTHA-VARSHINI

“Becoming detached from the means to attain catur-varga

(dharma, artha, käma and moksa), only take shelter of bhakti yoga.

” Sri Bhagavän is speaking this sloka beginning with the

word traigunya, because the predominant subject matters of

the Vedas illuminate karma, jïäna, etc., which are under the

gunas. The meaning of the word traigunya is formed with the

suffix ‘syan’. Since, in the Vedas, there are excessive descriptions

of karma and jïäna, according to the logic of bhümnä

vyapadesä bhavanti (wherein the title is based on the predominating

composition), the Vedas are called traigunya (pertaining

to the three modes of nature). Only bhakti, however, can

take one to Sri Bhagavän. This is the verdict of the Mathara-

Sruti. The Svetsavatara Upaniñad states: yasya deve parä bhaktir

yathä deve tathä gurau. “The meaning of the Vedas can only

be revealed to one who has the same transcendental bhakti to

both Sri Bhagavän and his gurudeva.”

Nirguna-bhakti is the only subject matter of the smrtis, such

as the Pancarätra and the Upanisads, including the

Gitopanisad and Gopäla-tapani Upanisad. If it is accepted

that bhakti is not described in the Vedas, bhakti will become

unauthoritative. Therefore, Krsna directs Arjuna to become

free from the Vedic injunctions of jnäna and karma, which

are under the influence of the gunas. He tells him not to

perform them, but to always follow the process for achieving

bhakti as stated in the Vedas. It is mentioned in Brahmayämala Puräna, “The pretentious display of exclusive haribhakti,

neglecting the process of païcarätra recommended in

sruti, smrti and the Puränas, etc., results only in eventual

disturbance.” This mistake or fault is inexcusable.

Those subject matters of the Vedas, that pertain to the gunas

(saguna) and those that are beyond the gunas (gunätéta) are

called respectively traigunya (with the three gunas) and

nistraigunya (free from the three gunas). Sri Krsna says, “Of

the two, pursue only nistraigunya. Become free from the three

gunas by the influence of My nirguna-bhakti. Only then will

you become free from dualities such as honour and dishonour.

Therefore, remain exclusively in the association of My bhaktas

who are always situated in nitya-sattva.”

Here, the explanation of how to become situated in visuddha

(nitya) sattva-guna will contradict the explanation on becoming

free from the gunas. To achieve that which is lacking is

called yoga, and to protect that which one possesses is called

kñema. By the word niryoga-ksema, Sri Bhagavän is telling

Arjuna to become free from the concern for both yoga and

ksema. “Upon becoming overpowered by the taste for My

bhakti-rasa, yoga and ksema will not be a cause for concern.”

When Sri Bhagavän states in Gitä (9.22), “I personally carry

yoga and ksema,” He is displaying His affection for His bhaktas

by stating, “Because I carry their burden of maintenance there

is no need for them to separately endeavour for it.” Ätmavän

means ‘become a person endowed with intelligence granted

by Me.’

Now the words nistraigunya and traigunya are being discussed

In Srimad-Bhägavatam (11.25.23-29) it is said:

Know that niskäma-karma offered to Sri Bhagavän is in sattvaguna.

That action which is performed with a desire for the fruit

is in rajo-guna, while action performed with violence or envy is

in tamo-guna.

Read the rest in .pdf at:

http://bvml.org/SBNM/books/index.html

[gHari]

Bhagavad-gita As It Is 2.45:

 

<center>

trai-guNya-viSayA vedA

nistrai-guNyo bhavArjuna

nirdvandvo nitya-sattva-stho

niryoga-kSema AtmavAn

</center>

trai-guNya--pertaining to the three modes of material nature; viSayAH--on the subject matter; vedAH--Vedic literatures; nistrai-guNyaH--transcendental to the three modes of material nature; bhava--be; arjuna--O Arjuna; nirdvandvaH--without duality; nitya-sattva-sthaH--in a pure state of spiritual existence; niryoga-kSemaH--free from ideas of gain and protection; Atma-vAn--established in the self.

The Vedas deal mainly with the subject of the three modes of material nature. O Arjuna, become transcendental to these three modes. Be free from all dualities and from all anxieties for gain and safety, and be established in the self.

PURPORT

 

All material activities involve actions and reactions in the three modes of material nature. They are meant for fruitive results, which cause bondage in the material world. The Vedas deal mostly with fruitive activities to gradually elevate the general public from the field of sense gratification to a position on the transcendental plane. Arjuna, as a student and friend of Lord KRSNa, is advised to raise himself to the transcendental position of VedAnta philosophy where, in the beginning, there is brahma-jijJAsA, or questions on the supreme transcendence. All the living entities who are in the material world are struggling very hard for existence. For them the Lord, after creation of the material world, gave the Vedic wisdom advising how to live and get rid of the material entanglement. When the activities for sense gratification, namely the karma-kANDa chapter, are finished, then the chance for spiritual realization is offered in the form of the UpaniSads, which are part of different Vedas, as the Bhagavad-gItA is a part of the fifth Veda, namely the MahAbhArata. The UpaniSads mark the beginning of transcendental life.

 

 

As long as the material body exists, there are actions and reactions in the material modes. One has to learn tolerance in the face of dualities such as happiness and distress, or cold and warmth, and by tolerating such dualities become free from anxieties regarding gain and loss. This transcendental position is achieved in full KRSNa consciousness when one is fully dependent on the good will of KRSNa.

 

 

 

Bhagavad-gita As It Is 4.20:

 

<center>

tyaktvA karma-phalAsaGgaM

nitya-tRpto nirAzrayaH

karmaNy abhipravRtto 'pi

naiva kiJcit karoti saH

</center>

tyaktvA--having given up; karma-phala-AsaGgam--attachment for fruitive results; nitya--always; tRptaH--being satisfied; nirAzrayaH--without any shelter; karmaNi--in activity; abhipravRttaH--being fully engaged; api--in spite of; na--does not; eva--certainly; kiJcit--anything; karoti--do; saH--he.

Abandoning all attachment to the results of his activities, ever satisfied and independent, he performs no fruitive action, although engaged in all kinds of undertakings.

PURPORT

 

This freedom from the bondage of actions is possible only in KRSNa consciousness, when one is doing everything for KRSNa. A KRSNa conscious person acts out of pure love for the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and therefore he has no attraction for the results of the action. He is not even attached to his personal maintenance, for everything is left to KRSNa. Nor is he anxious to secure things, nor to protect things already in his possession. He does his duty to the best of his ability and leaves everything to KRSNa. Such an unattached person is always free from the resultant reactions of good and bad; it is as though he were not doing anything. This is the sign of akarma, or actions without fruitive reactions. Any other action, therefore, devoid of KRSNa consciousness, is binding upon the worker, and that is the real aspect of vikarma, as explained hereinbefore.

 

 

[gHari]

"our thought and action comes from Nature- which is expressed by the gunas."

 

That doesn't sound right to me somehow. The divine flows from Krsna as Paramatma thru the atma thru the intelligence thru the mind thru the senses. Krsna describes it as <a href=http://vedabase.net/bg/10/10/en target=new>buddhi-yogam</a>.

 

The Vedas speak of the body as being like a chariot that is drawn by the horse senses controlled by the mechanism of the mind reins and driven by the intelligence. When the reins are in the hands of Sri Krsna, then the horses are nicely controlled.

[matarisvan]

Sattva is one of the three gunas and has to be explained in that context. If this is not taken into account when commenting on this verse then the commentary is inaccurate. The advice to Arjuna is not to give up the three gunas but to give up the two lesser Gunas only.

 

Ramanujacharya's comments on this verse (translated by Dr Sankaranarayan)

 

2.45 The word Traigunya means the three Gunas --- Sattva, Rajas and Tamas. Here the term Traigunya denotes persons in whom Sattva, Rajas and Tamas are in abundance. The Vedas in prescribing desire-oriented rituals (Kamya-karmas) have such persons in view. Because of their great love, the Vedas teach what is good to those in whom Tamas, Rajas and Sattva preponderate. If the Vedas had not explained to these persons the means for the attainment of heaven etc., according to the Gunas, then those persons who are not interested in liberation owing to absence of Sattva and preponderance of Rajas and Tamas in them, would get completely lost amidst what should not be resorted to, without knowing the means for attaining the results they desire. Hence the Vedas are concerned with the Gunas. Be you free from the three Gunas. Try to acquire Sattva in abundance; increase that alone. The purport is: do not nurse the preponderance of the three Gunas in their state of inter-mixture; do not cultivate such preponderance. Be free from the pairs of opposites; be free from all the characteristics of worldly life. Abide in pure Sattva; be established in Sattva, in its state of purity without the admixture of the other two Gunas. If it is questioned how that is possible, the reply is as follows. Never care to acquire things nor protect what has been acquired. While abandoning the acquisition of what is not required for self-realisation, abandon also the conservation of such things already acquired. You can thus be established in self-control and thereby become an aspirant after the essentail nature of the self. 'Yoga' is acquisition of what has not been acquired; 'Ksema' is preservation of things already acquired. Abandoning these is a must for an aspirant after the essential nature of the self. If you conduct yourself in this way, the preponderance of Rajas and Tamas will be annihilated, and pure Sattva will develop. Besides, all that is taught in the Vedas is not fit to be utilised by all

 

Shankaras comments on this verse (translation: Gambhirananda)

 

2.45 To those who are thus devoid of discriminating wisdom, who indulge in pleasure, [Here Ast. adds 'yat phalam tad aha, what result accrues, that the Lord states:'-Tr.] O Arjuna, vedah, the Vedas; traigunya-visayah, have the three qualities as their object, have the three gunas, [Traigunya means the collection of the three qualities, viz sattva (purity), rajas (energy) and tamas (darkness); i.e. the collection of virtuous, vicious and mixed activities, as also their results. In this derivative sense traigunya means the worldly life.] i.e. the worldly life, as the object to be revealed. But you bhava, become; nistraigunyah, free from the three qualities, i.e. be free from desires. [There is a seeming conflict between the advices to be free from the three qualities and to be ever-poised in the quality of sattva. Hence, the Commentator takes the phrase nistraigunya to mean niskama, free from desires.] (Be) nirdvandvah, free from the pairs of duality -- by the word dvandva, duality, are meant the conflicting pairs [Of heat and cold, etc.] which are the causes of happiness and sorrow; you become free from them. [From heat, cold, etc. That is, forbear them.] You become nitya-sattvasthah, ever-poised in the quality of sattva; (and) so also niryoga-ksemah, without (desire for) acquisition and protection. Yoga means acquisition of what one has not, and ksema means the protection of what one has. For one who as 'acquisition and protection' foremost in his mind, it is difficult to seek Liberation. Hence, you be free from acquisition and protection. And also be atmavan, self-collected, vigilant. This is the advice given to you while you are engaged in your own duty. [And not from the point of view of seeking Liberation.]

 

Both Ramanujacharya and and Shankara concur that Arjuna should give up Rajas, Tamas and develop Sattva. The context should be considered too by checking the previous instructions that lead to this instruction.

[gHari]

<center>akarma</center>

akarma-kṛt — without doing something; BG 3.5

akarma — inaction; BG 4.16

akarma — inaction; BG 4.18

akarma-hetum — the cause of the end of fruitive activities; SB 5.6.14

akarma-kṛt — without performing action; SB 6.1.44

akarma-kṛt — without doing anything; SB 6.1.53

akarma — freedom from fruitive results; SB 8.1.14

akarma — failure to perform such duties; SB 11.3.43

akarma — nonperformance of prescribed duties; SB 11.7.8

[Shakti-Fan]

 

be established in Sattva, in its state of purity without the admixture of the other two Gunas. If it is questioned how that is possible, the reply is as follows. Never care to acquire things nor protect what has been acquired. While abandoning the acquisition of what is not required for self-realisation, abandon also the conservation of such things already acquired. You can thus be established in self-control and thereby become an aspirant after the essentail nature of the self. 'Yoga' is acquisition of what has not been acquired; 'Ksema' is preservation of things already acquired. Abandoning these is a must for an aspirant after the essential nature of the self. If you conduct yourself in this way, the preponderance of Rajas and Tamas will be annihilated, and pure Sattva will develop. Besides, all that is taught in the Vedas is not fit to be utilised by all

 

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja's Gita,

 

...pursue only nistraigunya... Become free from the three

gunas by the influence of My nirguna-bhakti. Only then will

you become free from dualities such as honour and dishonour.

Therefore, remain exclusively in the association of My bhaktas

who are always situated in nitya-sattva.”

Here, the explanation of how to become situated in visuddha

(nitya) sattva-guna will contradict the explanation on becoming

free from the gunas. To achieve that which is lacking is

called yoga, and to protect that which one possesses is called

kñema. By the word niryoga-ksema, Sri Bhagavän is telling

Arjuna to become free from the concern for both yoga and

ksema. “Upon becoming overpowered by the taste for My

bhakti-rasa, yoga and ksema will not be a cause for concern.”

When Sri Bhagavän states in Gitä (9.22), “I personally carry

yoga and ksema,” He is displaying His affection for His bhaktas

by stating, “Because I carry their burden of maintenance there

is no need for them to separately endeavour for it.” Ätmavän

means ‘become a person endowed with intelligence granted

by Me.’

 

 

THE BHÄVÄNUVÄDA OF THE SÄRÄRTHA-VARSINI TIKÄ

The Innermost Intention of The Shower of Essential Meanings

BY SRILA VISVANÄTHA CAKRAVARTI THÄKURA

[shvu]

 

What you wrote doesn't seem to jive with my understanding of Prabhupadas books

 

Sattva is one of the three gunas and has to be explained in that context. If this is not taken into account when commenting on this verse then the commentary is inaccurate. The advice to Arjuna is not give up the three gunas but to give up the two lesser Gunas only.

 

Matarisvan is correct in this context. Ancient mariner is correct too - but out of context.

 

One should be clear about the two levels of preaching in the Gita, though one does flow into the other eventually. At one level Krishna is counseling Arjuna (and indirectly the world) to perform his duty by fighting the war. This context is within the material frame. At the other level Krishna is counseling the world about how to free onself up from material bondage. I say one flows into the other as performing one's prescribed duties is a path to freedom from material bondage. In the first level, Arjuna is still bound by Gunas and has to move into Sattva Guna as that is the best of the three. After one trascends the material plane (second level), then the three gunas are not relevant anymore which is what ancientmariner is alluding to.

 

2.45 is in the context of the first level and therefore the advice is not to give up all 3 gunas but only 2 gunas.

 

And if someone can post Madhva's commentary, that may say the same thing

 

Cheers

[Sean McHugh]

Many many thanks for those details replies, which I've read with much interest.

 

An attachment to the ebb and flow of the relative material world is a mistake and instead, operation from a transcendent position is needed.

 

However my question is this- that liberated operation has a logic, indeed is based on absolute truth, not discursively understandable or perspicuous truth but a truth concerned with more intuitive movement and necessary rightness.

 

And this movement is the movement of the gunas, unless I'm mistaken. For instance if someone is cold or sad, you will intuitively try to warm or cheer them: needless to say we do not rise to a position beyond the dualities of the relative world altogether- we are still in it, just not of it.

 

We act under the gunas of nature but perfectly, because our relation with them is now transcendental and not fruitive: we don't help the person because of any reason, except that they need help.

 

So we can say that divine action is based on the gunas, or nature, or the logic or dynamic of the Self? Yes?

[gHari]

<a href=http://vedabase.net/sb/1/2/19/en target=new>Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.2.19-20</a>:

 

<center>

tadA rajas-tamo-bhAvAH

kAma-lobhAdayaz ca ye

ceta etair anAviddhaM

sthitaM sattve prasIdati

</center>

tadA--at that time; rajaH--in the mode of passion; tamaH--the mode of ignorance; bhAvAH--the situation; kAma--lust and desire; lobha--hankering; AdayaH--others; ca--and; ye--whatever they are; cetaH--the mind; etaiH--by these; anAviddham--without being affected; sthitam--being fixed; sattve--in the mode of goodness; prasIdati--thus becomes fully satisfied.

As soon as irrevocable loving service is established in the heart, the effects of nature's modes of passion and ignorance, such as lust, desire and hankering, disappear from the heart. Then the devotee is established in goodness, and he becomes completely happy.

PURPORT

 

A living being in his normal constitutional position is fully satisfied in spiritual bliss. This state of existence is called brahma-bhUta [sB 4.30.20] or AtmA-nandI, or the state of self-satisfaction. This self-satisfaction is not like the satisfaction of the inactive fool. The inactive fool is in the state of foolish ignorance, whereas the self-satisfied AtmAnandI is transcendental to the material state of existence. This stage of perfection is attained as soon as one is fixed in irrevocable devotional service. Devotional service is not inactivity, but the unalloyed activity of the soul.

 

 

The soul's activity becomes adulterated in contact with matter, and as such the diseased activities are expressed in the form of lust, desire, hankering, inactivity, foolishness and sleep.

The effect of devotional service becomes manifest by complete elimination of these effects of passion and ignorance. The devotee is fixed at once in the mode of goodness, and he makes further progress to rise to the position of VAsudeva, or the state of unmixed sattva, or zuddha-sattva. Only in this zuddha-sattva state can one always see KRSNa eye to eye by dint of pure affection for the Lord.

 

 

A devotee is always in the mode of unalloyed goodness; therefore he harms no one. But the nondevotee, however educated he may be, is always harmful. A devotee is neither foolish nor passionate. The harmful, foolish and passionate cannot be devotees of the Lord, however they may advertise themselves as devotees by outward dress. A devotee is always qualified with all the good qualities of God. Quantitatively such qualifications may be different, but qualitatively both the Lord and His devotee are one and the same.

 

 

 

<center>

evaM prasanna-manaso

bhagavad-bhakti-yogataH

bhagavat-tattva-vijJAnaM

mukta-saGgasya jAyate

</center>

evam--thus; prasanna--enlivened; manasaH--of the mind; bhagavat-bhakti--the devotional service of the Lord; yogataH--by contact of; bhagavat--regarding the Personality of Godhead; tattva--knowledge; vijJAnam--scientific; mukta--liberated; saGgasya--of the association; jAyate--becomes effective.

Thus established in the mode of unalloyed goodness, the man whose mind has been enlivened by contact with devotional service to the Lord gains positive scientific knowledge of the Personality of Godhead in the stage of liberation from all material association.

PURPORT

 

In the Bhagavad-gItA (7.3) it is said that out of many thousands of ordinary men, one fortunate man endeavors for perfection in life. Mostly men are conducted by the modes of passion and ignorance, and thus they are engaged always in lust, desire, hankerings, ignorance and sleep. Out of many such manlike animals, there is actually a man who knows the responsibility of human life and thus tries to make life perfect by following the prescribed duties. And out of many thousands of such persons who have thus attained success in human life, one may know scientifically about the Personality of Godhead SrI KRSNa. In the same Bhagavad-gItA (18.55) it is also said that scientific knowledge of SrI KRSNa is understood only by the process of devotional service (bhakti-yoga).

 

 

The very same thing is confirmed herein in the above words. No ordinary man, or even one who has attained success in human life, can know scientifically or perfectly the Personality of Godhead. Perfection of human life is attained when one can understand that he is not the product of matter but is in fact spirit. And as soon as one understands that he has nothing to do with matter, he at once ceases his material hankerings and becomes enlivened as a spiritual being. This attainment of success is possible when one is above the modes of passion and ignorance, or, in other words, when one is actually a brAhmaNa by qualification.

 

 

A brAhmaNa is the symbol of sattva-guNa, or the mode of goodness. And others, who are not in the mode of goodness, are either kSatriyas, vaizyas, zUdras or less than the zUdras. The brahminical stage is the highest stage of human life because of its good qualities. So one cannot be a devotee unless one at least qualifies as a brAhmaNa. The devotee is already a brAhmaNa by action. But that is not the end of it. As referred to above, such a brAhmaNa has to become a VaiSNava in fact to be actually in the transcendental stage. A pure VaiSNava is a liberated soul and is transcendental even to the position of a brAhmaNa. In the material stage even a brAhmaNa is also a conditioned soul because although in the brahminical stage the conception of Brahman or transcendence is realized, scientific knowledge of the Supreme Lord is lacking. One has to surpass the brahminical stage and reach the vasudeva stage to understand the Personality of Godhead KRSNa.

 

 

The science of the Personality of Godhead is the subject matter for study by the postgraduate students in the spiritual line. Foolish men, or men with a poor fund of knowledge, do not understand the Supreme Lord, and they interpret KRSNa according to their respective whims.

The fact is, however, that one cannot understand the science of the Personality of Godhead unless one is freed from the contamination of the material modes, even up to the stage of a brAhmaNa. When a qualified brAhmaNa factually becomes a VaiSNava, in the enlivened state of liberation he can know what is actually the Personality of Godhead.

 

[shiva]

 

Many many thanks for those details replies, which I've read with much interest.

 

An attachment to the ebb and flow of the relative material world is a mistake and instead, operation from a transcendent position is needed.

 

However my question is this- that liberated operation has a logic, indeed is based on absolute truth, not discursively understandable or perspicuous truth but a truth concerned with more intuitive movement and necessary rightness.

 

And this movement is the movement of the gunas, unless I'm mistaken. For instance if someone is cold or sad, you will intuitively try to warm or cheer them: needless to say we do not rise to a position beyond the dualities of the relative world altogether- we are still in it, just not of it.

 

We act under the gunas of nature but perfectly, because our relation with them is now transcendental and not fruitive: we don't help the person because of any reason, except that they need help.

 

So we can say that divine action is based on the gunas, or nature, or the logic or dynamic of the Self? Yes?

 

 

What Krishna is saying in 2.45 needs to be understood within the context of the previous verses:

 

 

 

BG 2.39: Thus far I have described this knowledge to you through analytical study. Now listen as I explain it in terms of working without fruitive results. O son of Pṛthā, when you act in such knowledge you can free yourself from the bondage of works.

 

BG 2.40: In this endeavor there is no loss or diminution, and a little advancement on this path can protect one from the most dangerous type of fear.

 

BG 2.41: Those who are on this path are resolute in purpose, and their aim is one. O beloved child of the Kurus, the intelligence of those who are irresolute is many-branched.

 

BG 2.42-43: Men of small knowledge are very much attached to the flowery words of the Vedas, which recommend various fruitive activities for elevation to heavenly planets, resultant good birth, power, and so forth. Being desirous of sense gratification and opulent life, they say that there is nothing more than this.

 

BG 2.44: In the minds of those who are too attached to sense enjoyment and material opulence, and who are bewildered by such things, the resolute determination for devotional service to the Supreme Lord does not take place

 

BG 2.45: The Vedas deal mainly with the subject of the three modes of material nature. O Arjuna, become transcendental to these three modes. Be free from all dualities and from all anxieties for gain and safety, and be established in the self.

 

The context of these teachings are the 4 purusharthas which are taught in the Vedas - Dharma, Artha, Kama and Moksha. These 4 aims of life are what the Vedas teach. The Vedas are a vast body of literature which teach on all subject matters having to do with human society, both material and spiritual. What Krishna is saying is that the Vedas mostly are about subjects that have to do with goals for people who are heavily influenced by the 3 gunas i.e dharma, artha, and kama. The Vedas teach different paths of action which will be attractive to people influenced in different ways by the 3 gunas. For those who are mostly influenced by tamo guna they will be mostly attracted to the sections of the Vedas which promise kama, material enjoyment. For those mostly influenced by rajo guna they will be mostly attracted by the teachings on artha, material prosperity. For those most influenced by sattva guna they will be mostly attracted to the teachings on dharma, material duty. All of these teachings in the vedas are arranged for the gradual upliftment of people and society to higher levels of consciousness.

 

Krishna is telling Arjuna that these goals are inferior to the true purpose of the Vedas, which is moksha, liberation.

 

BG 2.46: All purposes served by a small well can at once be served by a great reservoir of water. Similarly, all the purposes of the Vedas can be served to one who knows the purpose behind them.

 

What Krishna is saying is that even though the Vedas give so many different instructions on how to live your life, the real purpose of the Vedas is to liberate people from material consciousness, to elevate people to God consciousness. So Krishna is saying give up all the lesser teachings of the Vedas ,which are seen as worthy goals by those under the influence of the 3 modes of nature, rise to the plane of of God consciousness, act solely for Krishna's purpose. All the purposes of the Vedas are served by that purpose because the Vedas really only serve a single purpose, moksha. By following Krishna's instructions you have attained the purpose of the Vedas, you are liberated. Moksha is not some abstract substanceless reality, it is realization of the true nature of reality and our relationship with it. Understanding that reality the liberated person acts free from the influence of the 3 modes, under the divine guidance and protection of Krishna.

 

Bhagavad Gita 18.64-66

 

 

sarva-guhyatamaḿ bhūyah

śṛṇu me paramaḿ vacah

iṣṭo 'si me dṛḍham iti

tato vakṣyāmi te hitam

 

SYNONYMS

 

sarva-guhya-tamam — the most confidential of all; bhūyaḥ — again; śṛṇu — just hear; me — from Me; paramam — the supreme; vacaḥ — instruction; iṣṭaḥ asi — you are dear; me — to Me; dṛḍham — very; iti — thus; tataḥ — therefore; vakṣyāmi — I am speaking; te — for your; hitam — benefit.

 

TRANSLATION

 

Because you are My very dear friend, I am speaking to you My supreme instruction, the most confidential knowledge of all. Hear this from Me, for it is for your benefit.

 

man-manā bhava mad-bhakto

mad-yājī māḿ namaskuru

mām evaiṣyasi satyaḿ te

pratijāne priyo 'si me

 

SYNONYMS

 

mat-manāḥ — thinking of Me; bhava — just become; mat-bhaktaḥ — My devotee; mat-yājī — My worshiper; mām — unto Me; namaskuru — offer your obeisances; mām — unto Me; eva — certainly; eṣyasi — you will come; satyam — truly; te — to you; pratijāne — I promise; priyaḥ — dear; asi — you are; me — to Me.

 

TRANSLATION

 

Always think of Me, become My devotee, worship Me and offer your homage unto Me. Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend.

 

sarva-dharmān parityajya

mām ekaḿ śaraṇaḿ vraja

ahaḿ tvāḿ sarva-pāpebhyo

mokṣayiṣyāmi mā śucah

 

SYNONYMS

 

sarva-dharmān — all varieties of religion; parityajya — abandoning; mām — unto Me; ekam — only; śaraṇam — for surrender; vraja — go; aham — I; tvām — you; sarva — all; pāpebhyaḥ — from sinful reactions; mokṣayiṣyāmi — will deliver; mā — do not; śucaḥ — worry.

 

TRANSLATION

 

Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reactions. Do not fear.

[Sean McHugh]

Great stuff you folks.

 

I notice there's plenty of Prabhupada's rather literal Gita commentary cited here. I'd always draw attention to the Maharishi equivalent, which only extends through chapters 1-6 but which is surely the most poetic, ravishingly beautiful and hence faithful translation...

[matarisvan]

 

Great stuff you folks.

 

I notice there's plenty of Prabhupada's rather literal Gita commentary cited here. I'd always draw attention to the Maharishi equivalent, which only extends through chapters 1-6 but which is surely the most poetic, ravishingly beautiful and hence faithful translation...

 

You are saying Prabhupadas translation is literal and Maharishis translation is poetic, but the poetic translation is more faithful than the literal translation? How is that?

 

A literal translation has a better chance of being faithful.

[Sarva gattah]

 

I wonder if you can add anything to this. Gita 2:45 of course says 'be without the three gunas', these being the three basic forms or tendencies of relative, material nature.

 

However once we are established in divine consciousness, separated from the realm of the gunas doing its own thing beneath us, our thought and action comes from Nature- which is expressed by the gunas.

 

My understanding is that the distinction here is between an affected and unaffected relation with the gunas, perhaps either maya or one-pointedness. 4:20 speaks of even in the midst of activity 'he does not act at all'- ie being on the level of the gunas of Nature action is necessarily perfect, but if the Self is attached to the senses and lost in their objects, we need to 'be without' the gunas.

 

Shiva's post inspired the following -

 

The contexts of these teachings are the 4 purusharthas, which are taught in the Vedas Dharma (Religion or righteousness), Artha (adoration profit, distinction), Kama (lust) and Moksha (liberation).

The Vedas teach us about subjects that have to do with goals for people who are heavily influenced by the 3 gunas i.e. dharma, Artha, and Kama. Artha is considered to be a noble goal as long as it follows the dictates of Vedic morality. The concept includes achieving widespread fame, garnering wealth and having an elevated social standing, however this can bind one to the mode of material goodness and therefore ones consciousness remains ‘dreaming’ in the material creation within ones ethereal or subtle material vessel and its extended biological material covering

The Vedas teach diverse paths of action which will be eye-catching to people influenced in different ways by the 3 gunas. For those who are mostly influenced by tamo guna they will be mostly attracted to the sections of the Vedas, which promise Kama (lust), material enjoyment.

For those mostly influenced by rajo guna they will be mostly attracted by the teachings on Artha, material prosperity. For those most influenced by sattva guna they will be mostly attracted to the teachings on dharma, material duty. All of these teachings in the Vedas are arranged for the gradual upliftment of people and society to higher levels of consciousness so one can eventually transcend the material creation of Maha-Vishnu and go back home back to Vaikuntha.

Krishna is telling Arjuna that these goals are inferior to the true purpose of the Vedas, which is Moksha, liberation.

BG 2.46: All purposes served by a small well can at once be served by a great reservoir of water. Similarly, all the purposes of the Vedas can be served to one who knows the purpose behind them.

Krishna is saying is that the Vedas gives so many different instructions on how to live your life, however, the real purpose of the Vedas is to liberate people from material consciousness and elevate souls to Krsna consciousness and get out of this material world.

So Krishna is saying give up all the lesser teachings of the Vedas, which are seen as worthy goals by those under the influence of the 3 modes of nature and rise to the plane of Krsna consciousness, act solely for Krishna's purpose.

All the purposes of the Vedas are served by that purpose because the Vedas really only serve a single purpose, Moksha or liberation which means get out of this material world and realize ones true identity or eternal ‘svarupa’ in Vaikuntha.

By following Krishna's instructions you have attained the purpose of the Vedas by going back home, back to Krishna’s eternal abode, you are liberated, this is the real meaning of Moksha

It is not some abstract impersonal reality; it is realization of the true nature of reality and our eternal relationship with Krishna outside of the material decaying creation.

Accepting that ones full natural propensity is always in Vaikuntha, the liberated soul acts free from the covering restrictions of ethereal and biological vessels that are controlled by the 3 modes of material nature. The 3 gunas - Dharma (Religion or righteousness), Artha (adoration profit, distinction), Kama (lust) and Moksha (liberation), plus the vessels the ethereal and biological jiva possess, are created by Maha-Vishnu and make up His inferior mahat-tattva or material creation.

 

We therefore have to understand that non of this in the material world is our real home.

 

Our perpetual home and bodily form is only regained in Vaikuntha or Goloka

Always think of Me, become My devotee, worship Me and offer your homage unto Me. Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend. Bhagavad Gita 18.65

Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reactions. Do not fear Bhagavad Gita 18.66

[Sean McHugh]

 

You are saying Prabhupadas translation is literal and

A literal translation has a better chance of being faithful.

 

Of course it doesn't. Art and aesthetics is next to divinity, whereas intellectual transparency is next to rationality and outward, superficial understanding.

[AncientMariner]

 

Great stuff you folks.

 

I notice there's plenty of Prabhupada's rather literal Gita commentary cited here. I'd always draw attention to the Maharishi equivalent, which only extends through chapters 1-6 but which is surely the most poetic, ravishingly beautiful and hence faithful translation...

 

 

I read the Maharishi version of Mahabharata and Bhagavad Gita and I really enjoyed. His commentary was very long and beautiful, it was a pleasure to read in my opinion. I like when these great souls give nice long commentaries because I am such a dummy.