Kalki Avatar?

[kimfelix]

Kalki is mentioned in the Mahabharata (though there he is not noted as an avatar) and in various Puranas, including the Vishnu Purana (4.24.18). It says that he will be the destroyer of the mlecchas and thieves who are reigning as kings at the end of Kaliyuga. There is no mention there of his white horse.

 

My understanding is that the transition from Kali to Krita Yuga is an automatic progression of time and is not caused by Kalki. He just comes to sort out the residual problems of Kaliyuga by delivering the righteous from the clutches of wicked rulers.

[shambu]

 

Kalki is mentioned in the Mahabharata (though there he is not noted as an avatar) and in various Puranas, including the Vishnu Purana (4.24.18). It says that he will be the destroyer of the mlecchas and thieves who are reigning as kings at the end of Kaliyuga. There is no mention there of his white horse.

 

My understanding is that the transition from Kali to Krita Yuga is an automatic progression of time and is not caused by Kalki. He just comes to sort out the residual problems of Kaliyuga by delivering the righteous from the clutches of wicked rulers.

The problem here seems to me that at the end of Kali Yuga there will be hardly any righteous people left, according to scripture. So why take the trouble to cut all the degenerates' heads?

 

Prabhupada said Kalki especially comes to kill all the demons at the end of Kali Yuga, so that's why I am asking this.

 

Here's a 18th century image of Kalki, with sword and horse:

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f3/Kalki1.jpg

[kimfelix]

There is not much detail given in the Puranic accounts, but they seem to indicate that he will overthrow the rulers of the world rather than engaging in wholesale massacre of the population.

[AncientMariner]

<TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD>Canto 12: The Age of Deterioration</TD><TD class=m>Chapter 2: The Symptoms of Kali-yuga</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 12.2.12-16

 

kṣīyamāṇeṣu deheṣu

dehināḿ kali-doṣataḥ

varṇāśramavatāḿ dharme

naṣṭe veda-pathe nṛṇām

pāṣaṇḍa-pracure dharme

dasyu-prāyeṣu rājasu

cauryānṛta-vṛthā-hiḿsā-

nānā-vṛttiṣu vai nṛṣu

śūdra-prāyeṣu varṇeṣu

cchāga-prāyāsu dhenuṣu

gṛha-prāyeṣv āśrameṣu

yauna-prāyeṣu bandhuṣu

aṇu-prāyāsv oṣadhīṣu

śamī-prāyeṣu sthāsnuṣu

vidyut-prāyeṣu megheṣu

śūnya-prāyeṣu sadmasu

itthaḿ kalau gata-prāye

janeṣu khara-dharmiṣu

dharma-trāṇāya sattvena

bhagavān avatariṣyati

 

SYNONYMS

kṣīyamāṇeṣu — having become smaller; deheṣu — the bodies; dehinām — of all living entities; kali-doṣataḥ — by the contamination of the age of Kali; varṇa-āśrama-vatām — of the members of varṇāśrama society; dharme — when their religious principles; naṣṭe — have been destroyed; veda-pathe — the path of the Vedas; nṛṇām — for all men; pāṣaṇḍa-pracure — mostly atheism; dharme — religion; dasyu-prāyeṣu — mostly thieves; rājasu — the kings; caurya — banditry; anṛta — lying; vṛthā-hiḿsā — useless slaughter; nānā — various; vṛttiṣu — their occupations; vai — indeed; nṛṣu — when men; śūdra-prāyeṣu — mostly low-class śūdras; varṇeṣu — the so-called social orders; chāga-prāyāsu — no better than goats; dhenuṣu — the cows; gṛha-prāyeṣu — just like materialistic homes; āśrameṣu — the spiritual hermitages; yauna-prāyeṣu — extending no further than marriage; bandhuṣu — family ties; aṇu-prāyāsu — mostly very small; oṣadhīṣu — plants and herbs; śamī-prāyeṣu — just like śamī trees; sthāsnuṣu — all the trees; vidyut-prāyeṣu — always manifesting lightning; megheṣu — the clouds; śūnya-prāyeṣu — devoid of religious life; sadmasu — the homes; ittham — thus; kalau — when the age of Kali; gata-prāye — is almost finished; janeṣu — the people; khara-dharmiṣu — when they have assumed the characteristics of asses; dharma-trāṇāya — for the deliverance of religion; sattvena — in the pure mode of goodness; bhagavān — the Supreme Personality of Godhead; avatariṣyati — will descend.

 

TRANSLATION

By the time the age of Kali ends, the bodies of all creatures will be greatly reduced in size, and the religious principles of followers of varṇāśrama will be ruined. The path of the Vedas will be completely forgotten in human society, and so-called religion will be mostly atheistic. The kings will mostly be thieves, the occupations of men will be stealing, lying and needless violence, and all the social classes will be reduced to the lowest level of śūdras. Cows will be like goats, spiritual hermitages will be no different from mundane houses, and family ties will extend no further than the immediate bonds of marriage. Most plants and herbs will be tiny, and all trees will appear like dwarf śamī trees. Clouds will be full of lightning, homes will be devoid of piety, and all human beings will have become like asses. At that time, the Supreme Personality of Godhead will appear on the earth. Acting with the power of pure spiritual goodness, He will rescue eternal religion.

 

PURPORT

Significantly, these verses point out that most so-called religions in this age will be atheistic (pāsaṇḍa-pracure dharme). In confirmation of the Bhāgavatam's prediction, the United States Supreme Court has recently ruled that to be considered a religion a system of belief need not recognize a supreme being. Also, many atheistic, voidistic belief systems, often imported from the Orient, have attracted the attention of modern atheistic scientists, who expound on the similarities between Eastern and Western voidism in fashionable, esoteric books.

These verses vividly describe many unsavory symptoms of the age of Kali. Ultimately, at the end of this age, Lord Kṛṣṇa will descend as Kalki and remove the thoroughly demonic persons from the face of the earth.

[AncientMariner]

<TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD>Canto 12: The Age of Deterioration</TD><TD class=m>Chapter 2: The Symptoms of Kali-yuga</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 12.2.19-20

 

aśvam āśu-gam āruhya

devadattaḿ jagat-patiḥ

asināsādhu-damanam

aṣṭaiśvarya-guṇānvitaḥ

vicarann āśunā kṣauṇyāḿ

hayenāpratima-dyutiḥ

nṛpa-lińga-cchado dasyūn

koṭiśo nihaniṣyati

 

SYNONYMS

aśvam — His horse; āśu-gam — swift-traveling; āruhya — mounting; devadattam — named Devadatta; jagat-patiḥ — the Lord of the universe; asinā — with His sword; asādhu-damanam — (the horse who) subdues the unholy; aṣṭa — with eight; aiśvarya — mystic opulences; guṇa — and transcendental qualities of the Personality of Godhead; anvitaḥ — endowed; vicaran — traveling about; āśunā — swift; kṣauṇyām — upon the earth; hayena — by His horse; apratima — unrivaled; dyutiḥ — whose effulgence; nṛpa-lińga — with the dress of kings; chadaḥ — disguising themselves; dasyūn — thieves; koṭiśaḥ — by the millions; nihaniṣyati — He will slaughter.

 

TRANSLATION

Lord Kalki, the Lord of the universe, will mount His swift horse Devadatta and, sword in hand, travel over the earth exhibiting His eight mystic opulences and eight special qualities of Godhead. Displaying His unequaled effulgence and riding with great speed, He will kill by the millions those thieves who have dared dress as kings.

 

PURPORT

These verses describe the thrilling pastimes of Lord Kalki. Anyone would be attracted by the sight of a powerful, beautiful man riding on a wonderful horse at lightning speed, chastising and devastating cruel, demonic people with the sword in His hand.

Of course, fanatical materialists may argue that this picture of Lord Kalki is a mere anthropomorphic creation of the human mind — a mythological deity created by people who need to believe in some superior being. But this argument is not logical, nor does it prove anything. It is merely the opinion of certain people. We need water, but that does not mean man creates water. We also need food, oxygen and many other things that we do not create. Since our general experience is that our needs correspond to available objects existing in the external world, that we appear to need a Supreme Lord would tend to indicate that in fact there is a Supreme Lord. In other words, nature endows us with a sense of need for things that actually exist and that are in fact necessary for our well-being. Similarly, we experience a need for God because we are in fact part of God and cannot live without Him. At the end of Kali-yuga this same God will appear as the mighty Kalki avatāra and beat the pollution out of the demons.

[shambu]

 

He will kill by the millions those thieves who have dared dress as kings.

 

Is this to be taken literally? "Millions of kings" sounds illogical, so does it refer to "haughty persons" in general?

[Kulapavana]

More on symptoms of Kali-yuga:

 

 

 

Envisioning a World Without Men

 

Scientist Says Female-Only Reproduction Is Only a Few Years Away

 

By NICK WATT

 

LONDON, April 28, 2008—

 

Imagine a world without men: Lauren Bacall but no Bogie, Hillary Clinton but no Bill, no Starsky or Hutch.

This isn't just an unlikely sci-fi scenario. This could be reality, according to Bryan Sykes, an eminent professor of genetics at Oxford University and author of "Adam's Curse: A Future Without Men."

"The Y chromosome is deteriorating and will, in my belief, disappear," Sykes told me. A world-renowned authority on genetic material, Sykes is called upon to investigate DNA evidence from crime scenes. His team of researchers is currently compiling a DNA family tree for our species.

 

Y Chromosome 'Fatally Flawed'

 

The Y chromosome is passed from father to son, it's what makes babies into boys. Basically the human template is a female: the Y chromosome kicks in a few weeks after conception and makes a boy. "Men are genetically modified women," explained Sykes. But unlike other chromosomes, the Y chromosome can't repair itself and will, says Sykes, disappear altogether in about 125,000 years.

"Every generation one percent of men will have a mutation which reduces their fertility by 10 percent," explained Sykes. Unlike most chromosomes, the Y does not travel through the generation in pairs, so can never repair itself from a mirror. Flaws are never repaired. "So if that goes on for generation after generation," Sykes argued, "eventually there are no functioning Y chromosomes left."

So no more men & sparsely populated sports bars, Ferrari would lose the lion's share of its business, and Hooters would probably go out of business.

It's a long time, 125,000 years. But we men have a far more immediate problem: sperm counts have fallen by an incredible 20 percent in the past 50 years. Stress? Alcohol? Environmental pollution? Who knows, but it's deeply concerning for those of us with a vested interest in the survival of the male.

Sykes has received hate mail. "To seem to be saying that men will become extinct, which is what I am saying," he mused. "I've had all kinds of messages from male groups saying, 'how can you betray your gender?'"

But would the absence of men make the world a better place? There would be far fewer wars without men on the planet, and the U.S. prison population would drop a colossal 97 percent. Road deaths in the U.S. would fall 70 percent. The Olympics would be half as long, which some people might view as a good thing.

 

Female-Only Reproduction

 

But surely, flawed Y chromosome or not, bad behavior or not, we are needed for procreation. Women can't have babies without us & right? I'm afraid, pretty soon they won't need our sperm, our chromosomes, our anything.

Until now, female-only reproduction has been limited to the plant and animal kingdom. So-called parthenogenesis, observed in the Cape Honey Bee, the Kimono Dragon and the hammerhead shark. In humans: confined to 1950s B movies. But Sykes says the technology for women to procreate without us is just around the corner.

"Within the next few years you will get two women having a child who is the biological child of both of them," Sykes said. "And entirely normal in every respect, but always female."

<!-- page -->

They've already done it with mice. Two mothers: the genetic material from one used to fertilize the egg of the other.

 

Two Mommies

 

The picture that Professor Sykes is painting is of a nuclear family without a man in sight. We went in search of what could be the template for the survival of our species. Laura and Natalie are a lovely couple who live in South London with their 13-month-old daughter Sanne. They agreed to let our all-male crew take a peek into their lives. Natalie actually gave birth to Sanne. The sperm came from an anonymous donor. She's raised by two moms.

"That the child will be well balanced with just two moms: Well, that's been proven back in the 40s," explained Natalie, who is also a child psychologist. "It's the care giving and the relationship between the care-giver and the infant that is the important part."

Laura, who right now is the bread winner, thinks any family will work as long as the child is, "getting the attention, the affection, the discipline." Looking at her very contented daughter, Laura told me, "She's obviously confident. She's very stable and secure. So I think so far we're doing okay."

Laura attended both the dads' and the moms' prenatal classes. I asked Natalie if having Laura as the partner was better than having a man? "I had actually a couple of mothers saying, 'Well, at least Laura's a woman she will understand better.'" Natalie told me. "And I said, 'no.' & She was exactly the same as the dads!"

Could Laura mount a defense? "I would like to think that I separate from the dads in that I'm not hooked on the ball games and things like that," she explained. And I must say, she was knee-deep in diaper changing and feeding time while we were hanging out.

So judging by this family, two moms aren't necessarily better, but can be just as good. But surely they must need a burly man for some things? I offered to put up some shelves, or change some light bulbs. "Actually, Laura is very, very handy," Natalie told me, trying not to hurt my feelings.

"My father's a mechanic, so there's nothing about a car that disturbs me," explained Laura. "I've also & I renovated a house. So, I'm really not concerned about that either."

Maybe our only hope as men is that women decide to keep us alive for their own amusement. For the pop music, perhaps, or maybe the dancing. We can be good at that.

[RadheyRadhey108]

 

Is this to be taken literally? "Millions of kings" sounds illogical, so does it refer to "haughty persons" in general?

Maybe it's also including governers, mayors... presidents of boy-band fan clubs ...

[shambu]

 

Maybe it's also including governers, mayors... presidents of boy-band fan clubs ...

 

Yes, certainly. Also including some school headmasters and the owners of certain websites I suppose...

[RadheyRadhey108]

 

Yes, certainly. Also including some school headmasters and the owners of certain websites I suppose...

But of course

[GODSEED]

SHREERÄDHÄKRSHNACHAITANYÄY NAMAH

GURU SHREECHAITANYA MAHÄPRABHAVE NAMAH

SHREENITYÄNANDA PRABHAVE NAMAH

SHREE SHIVASHIVÄYA NAMAH

JAY JAY SHREE BHAKTA VRINDA...

 

 

 

They are descended from Ramanuja in terms of sampradaya but they regard Swaminarayan as an avatar of Vishnu. That is why they worship his murti in the temple; it is not that different to Gaudiya Vaishnavas worshipping Chaitanya Mahaprabhu as avatar.

 

 

an avatar is not decided/recognized on anybody's whims and sentimentalism, the avatar should have been clearly mentioned in the Vedic Shästras,

 

dont talk just anything without having any information, dont be kiddish!

 

the eternal Devotees and the Gaudiya Vaishnavas dont declare Lord Chaitanya out of thier whim or mere realization or just on account of ShreeChaitanya Charitämrita or Shree Chaitanya Bhägavata,

dare not compare anyone with Lord Chaitanya!

 

both the Ägama and the Nigama Shästras clearly and at umpteen places, mention that Lord ShreeChaitanya Mahäprabhujee is the SelfSame, Pürna Purushottma Bhagavän ShreeKrshna and Shreematee Rädhikämätä!

 

this svaminiaryana guys are foolishly imposing on other foolish people, without any evidence they keep clamouring about their guru as god avatar!

 

and this is expected in kaliyuga!

 

i give due respect to svaminaraya, but, dont even dare try to compare them or any one in the whole creation with Lord ShreeVishnu! and/or Lord ShreeShambhu!

 

i'm sure even that svaminarayan must not be happy about such bogus proclamation!

 

again, dont dare compare svaminarayan with Lord Chaitanya, dont be foolish

 

u better stand accountable to what u write here, this is not a time-pass blogging portal!

 

SHREENITÄIGAURAPREMÄNANDE...SHREEGAURAHARIBOL

[Bishadi]

 

He is on the way. Just kidding.

It will take around 300000 more years. I am not sure with exact figuer. It is there in Srimad bhagavata

No need to kid about what many are seeking; note the thread, many are contemplating and the compassion towards seeking the knowledge to understanding is quite beautiful.

 

Apparently Jesus has pretty much already provided concrete evidence of an afterlife with his resurrection but that doesn't seem to have cured all the ills of the Kali-yuga. Apparently the Kalki-avatar is going to cure all the ills of the Kali-yuga by killing off the corrupted kings of the Earth at the time but who knows for sure. Regardless Srimad Bhagavatam is an interesting and beautiful explanation of our existence.

The final chapter is the knowledge to understand existence. When the consciousness of existence, upon mass (mankind) can comprehend existence; the pinnacle of mans evolution.

By this the sciences will have a paradigm shift as then all realities of physical knowledge combine.

The medical field will cross that impasse within chemistry; health, medicine and longevity will all have the knowledge to further.

All of Srimad Bhagavatam doesn't make any sense if Lord Chaitanya was the Kalki-Avatar. Lord Caitanya was especially merciful to the fallen souls of the Kali-yuga because he gave them the maha mantra but the Kalki-Avatar apparently is going to be a killing machine right from the get go in other words he is not going to be asking any questions but apparently even those that get killed by the Kalki-avatar will be liberated from birth and death so its not like the Kalki-Avatar is going to be some mundane madman.

<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->If both the killed and the ones left alive will be liberated, then I fail to see the point of his incarnation again.

the war is not of kalki although the truth that seeds the minds of men will enable the judgments to those of corrupt intent (the self).

The beast defeated is the power of the self. Each are capable but it is the beliefs and failed knowledge that birth(s) the isolations of mankind from the total (nature/god).

I agree with Godseed.

Guru is very important but is not God!

A pure contributor to knowledge is of godhead even when often misguided by existing ideas. It is when the teacher humbles to see the truth is when the godhead stands firm with integrity versus a self remaining complacent to the old.

 

there can only be ThreeGuru(s)...

ShreeKrshna, ShreeNityänandajee and ShreeShambu!

all others are merely repeating Their divine Teachings...

and well, u might be aware of the sorry state of svaminarayan sect today, i mean those scandals and what not...

actually, the scientific and devotion oriendted teachings are time-proof!

awe, then to know each generation contributes for the next then the evolution and ‘divinity’ is not so much the words as the choice to pursue them and recognize true realities rather than any omnipotence, magic or phenomenon to be the defining description.

Just like the Teachings of the Vedas, anyone who sincerely follows has to succeed, even in the last lag of Kaliyuga.

but non-scintific (unVedic) followers have to fall apart!

Beautiful.

so far as having guru deity in temple is concerned, certainly, that is on! its absolutely Vedic!

The physical entity should be noted a vehicle to life, but the compassionate gifts left (knowledge) is the life personified withstanding time, developing ‘life to continue’.

 

The original topic was how Kalki would be able to cut all demon's heads while riding a horse. I would advice some administrative intervention.

for each to know ‘truth’ of reality in the pure form, then each lie begins to fade at that moment. The truth can exist in each as then the beasts of ill conception fade to extinction.

 

He just comes to sort out the residual problems of Kaliyuga by delivering the righteous from the clutches of wicked rulers.

No ruler exists when knowledge defines enabling equality which allows the collective conscious to live within all mankind.

The war is true but not of a person but the divisions of mankind seeking proprietary for the self. As the dust settle, the judgments continue; the remaining will be the children of Peace.

As for which continent was the birth from; of course from the west, where it was only a choice that made the difference.

And that promise will be kept my friends!

[Laulyam]

TEXT 99

kali-yuge lilavatara na kare bhagavan

ataeva 'tri-yuga' kari' kahi tara nama

SYNONYMS

kali-yuge--in this Age of Kali; lila-avatara--a pastime incarnation; na--not; kare--does; bhagavan--the Supreme Personality of Godhead; ataeva--therefore; tri-yuga--of the name Triyuga (manifested in three yugas); kari'--accepting; kahi--I say; tara nama--His holy name.

TRANSLATION

"In this Age of Kali there is no lila-avatara of the Supreme Personality of Godhead; therefore He is known as Triyuga. That is one of His holy names."

PURPORT

A lila-avatara is an incarnation of the Lord who performs a variety of activities without making any special endeavor. He always has one pastime after another, all full of transcendental pleasure, and these pastimes are fully controlled by the Supreme Person. The Supreme Person is totally independent of all others in these pastimes. While teaching Sanatana Gosvami (Cc. Madhya 20.296-298), Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu pointed out that one cannot count the number of lila-avataras:

lilavatara krsnera na yaya ganana

pradhana kariya kahi dig-darasana

"However," the Lord told Sanatana, "I shall explain the chief lila-avataras."

matsya, kurma, raghunatha, nrsimha, vamana

varahadi----lekha yanra na yaya ganana

Thus the Lord's incarnations were enumerated, including Matsya, the fish incarnation; Kurma, the tortoise; Lord Ramacandra; Nrsimhadeva; Vamanadeva; and Varaha, the boar incarnation. Thus there are innumerable lila-avataras, and all of these exhibit wonderful pastimes. Lord Varaha, the boar incarnation, lifted the entire planet earth from the depths of the Garbhodaka Ocean. The tortoise incarnation, Lord Kurma, became a pivot for the emulsification of the whole sea, and Lord Nrsimhadeva appeared as half-man, half-lion. These are some of the wonderful and uncommon features of lila-avataras.

In his book Laghu-bhagavatamrta, Srila Rupa Gosvami has enumerated the following twenty-five lila-avataras: Catuh-sana, Narada, Varaha, Matsya, Yajna, Nara-Narayana, Kapila, Dattatreya, Hayasirsa (Hayagriva), Hamsa, Prsnigarbha, Rsabha, Prthu, Nrsimha, Kurma, Dhanvantari, Mohini, Vamana, Parasurama, Raghavendra, Vyasa, Balarama, Krsna, Buddha and Kalki.

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is not mentioned as a lila-avatara because He is an incarnation in disguise (channa-avatara). In this Age of Kali there are no lila-avataras, but there is an incarnation of the Lord manifested in the body of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. This has been explained in Srimad-Bhagavatam.

[Bishadi]

in each sect of theology there are many representations of what was written, spoken of the suggested incarnations and affects.

 

In observing the 'Triyuga' or how many in the West might suggest trinity.

 

Body, mind, soul ...... or in a literal sense of trinity; mass, energy, time; One.

 

For body, mind and soul to realize existence in form representing the key truths of understanding, then knowledge is the combining frame offering the balance between the three to be realized within each.

 

It is by equality and premise of truth to return to the fixed aspects of knowledge with which to describe the experience of existence. In descriptions the words combine each person to the truth of the experience.

 

since descriptions currently leave much to be desired where opinions spread the field of understanding to separate practitioners within each culture, it is by words and the precept of equality that sustains the evolution of knowledge to over come complacency of teachings.

 

That final chapter for peace to exist is by the combining of knowledge and that knowledge brings all cultures together based on physical truths bringing medicine, food and Peace within the Understanding of Light!

[kimfelix]

Godseed, this is probably not the right thread for this discussion but I am not aware of any verses in shastra that refer to Chaitanya Mahaprabhu as an avatar. You make a very strong distinction between Chaitanya and Swaminarayan, but I don't think there is the textual evidence to support this view. I am not trying to give any offence but the ascription of avatar status to Chaitanya and Swaminarayan always struck me as being rather similar and as lacking in support from Mahabharata or Puranas.