How can a vaishnava be offended? This doesn't make sense at all

[Redsox]

Dear Beggar,

The quotations you provided basically put me under more confusion, where I cannot understand how Krishna who controls every aspect of living entity's modes of actions can ever get offended by it.

Anyway, I understand it as how bhaktajan says it, basically that Krishna acts only to reciprocate the pure devotee's desires. In that sense too then even when you consider it a lila, and if krishna is sincerely only pleasing his devotee by acting "angry" , then too the pure devotee according to Bhagavad Gita cannot think badly about anyone... then krishna also doesn't get offended because his devotee doesn't get offended.

So my question is how krishna can get offended (EDIT: with our without) any intent of offense from the living entity that is solely in His control. Unless ofcourse, that living entity is bhisma and its the soul's desire to see lord in an "angry" form.

[Beggar]

 

Dear Beggar,

So my question is how krishna can get offended without any intent of offense from the living entity that is solely in His control.

Generally intent is everything but Srila Rupa Goswami's bhajan was so high that even an unintentional offense created an interruption in his samadhi. Also we can look at it as an instructional lila arranged by Krsna Himself.

[Redsox]

 

all krishnaleela my friend:-)

 

Krishna is never deluded and ever-aware of His play (or the play of prakrithi) ... but so long as we cannot spot Him, we will talk of offense and punishment for we have identified atma (or is that Krishna?) with the material-modes. Krishna can never be offended (ps. i don't really know Krishna:-) but if you play the part of Hiranyakasipu you know what happens next !! Call it punishment or Grace or just the fruits of actions.

 

Yea, thats what I think too. You said "play the part of Hiranyakasipu", which makes me wonder whether possibly everyone is just a devotee in this material creation , and is only playing a role to ultimately please krishna.

[Beggar]

 

Yea, thats what I think too. You said "play the part of Hiranyakasipu", which makes me wonder whether possibly everyone is just a devotee in this material creation , and is only playing a role to ultimately please krishna.

 

Then what would be the difference between the living entities in samsara and the eternal inhabitants of the Vaikunthas?

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Perspective?

 

 

Then what would be the difference between the living entities in samsara and the eternal inhabitants of the Vaikunthas?

[Redsox]

 

Perspective?

 

Is this prabhupada meant then? Do what you are supposed to do in life. If you are a teacher, teach... if you are a doctor then heal with the best of your ability etc, but do it in the mindset that you are acting for the Lord, hence quickly rise to the spiritual world because of that mindset?

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Is this prabhupada meant then? Do what you are supposed to do in life. If you are a teacher, teach... if you are a doctor then heal with the best of your ability etc, but do it in the mindset that you are acting for the Lord, hence quickly rise to the spiritual world because of that mindset?

I believe so. That, and, as krishnaleela suggested, see everything coming to us as being the Grace (or mercy) of the Lord.

 

Of course, it is said that we don't rise, but rather, we are lifted.

[Redsox]

Wow, this indeed has been a good discussion. Thank you

[Beggar]

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.167

From the PURPORT

The criterion is that a devotee must know what Kṛṣṇa wants him to do. This understanding can be achieved through the medium of a spiritual master who is a bona fide representative of Kṛṣṇa. Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī advises, ādau gurv-āśrayam. One who is serious in wanting to render pure devotional service to the Lord must take shelter of a spiritual master who comes in the disciplic succession from Kṛṣṇa. Evaḿ paramparā-prāptam imaḿ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. Without accepting a bona fide spiritual master coming in the disciplic succession, one cannot find out the real purpose of devotional service. Therefore one has to accept the shelter of a bona fide spiritual master and agree to be directed by him. The first business of a pure devotee is to satisfy his spiritual master, whose only business is to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And if one can satisfy the spiritual master, Kṛṣṇa is automatically satisfied — yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ **. This is the success of devotional service. This is the meaning of the word ānukūlyena — that is, favorable devotional service to the Lord. A pure devotee has no plans other than those for the Lord's service. He is not interested in attaining success in mundane activities. He simply wants success in the progress of devotional service. For a devotee, there cannot be worship of others or demigod worship. A pure devotee does not engage himself in such pseudo devotional service. He is interested only in satisfying Kṛṣṇa. If one lives only for the satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa, it does not matter whether he belongs to this order of life or that order of life. One's only business should be to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. This process is completely manifest in the activities of the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It has been actually proved that the entire world can accept devotional service without failure. One simply has to follow the instructions of the representative of Kṛṣṇa.

[Redsox]

 

Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 19.167

From the PURPORT

The criterion is that a devotee must know what Kṛṣṇa wants him to do. This understanding can be achieved through the medium of a spiritual master who is a bona fide representative of Kṛṣṇa. Śrīla Rūpa Gosvāmī advises, ādau gurv-āśrayam. One who is serious in wanting to render pure devotional service to the Lord must take shelter of a spiritual master who comes in the disciplic succession from Kṛṣṇa. Evaḿ paramparā-prāptam imaḿ rājarṣayo viduḥ [Bg. 4.2]. Without accepting a bona fide spiritual master coming in the disciplic succession, one cannot find out the real purpose of devotional service. Therefore one has to accept the shelter of a bona fide spiritual master and agree to be directed by him. The first business of a pure devotee is to satisfy his spiritual master, whose only business is to spread Kṛṣṇa consciousness. And if one can satisfy the spiritual master, Kṛṣṇa is automatically satisfied — yasya prasādād bhagavat-prasādaḥ **. This is the success of devotional service. This is the meaning of the word ānukūlyena — that is, favorable devotional service to the Lord. A pure devotee has no plans other than those for the Lord's service. He is not interested in attaining success in mundane activities. He simply wants success in the progress of devotional service. For a devotee, there cannot be worship of others or demigod worship. A pure devotee does not engage himself in such pseudo devotional service. He is interested only in satisfying Kṛṣṇa. If one lives only for the satisfaction of Kṛṣṇa, it does not matter whether he belongs to this order of life or that order of life. One's only business should be to satisfy Kṛṣṇa. This process is completely manifest in the activities of the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. It has been actually proved that the entire world can accept devotional service without failure. One simply has to follow the instructions of the representative of Kṛṣṇa.

 

This begs another question, isn't krishna already self-satisfied? Are we then only satisfying ourselves by going after krishna?

[Shakti-Fan]

 

 

anyabhilasita-sunyam

jnana-karmady-anavrtam

anukulyena krsnanu-

silanam bhaktir uttama

[CC Madhya 19.167]

 

 

Sripad Premaprayojana Prabhu: Gurudeva has ordered me to give just the outline of this verse composed by Srila Rupa Gosvami by the inspiration of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. In his Bhakti Rasamrta Sindhu he is giving the most excellent definition of uttama-bhakti, transcendental bhakti. It is the continuous unbroken cultivation of all the endeavors of your body, mind, words, and internal spiritual sentiments, which are meant exclusively for the pleasure of Krsna, totally devoid of any desires other than the desire to serve Krsna, not covered or mixed with karma, jnana, dry renunciation, yoga, astrology, and all other kinds of philosophies which are not conducive to bhakti.

 

 

Such endeavors should be like honey flowing from a jar. When we pour honey from a jar it does not come out in drops. It comes out in one think steam. When citta-vrtti, the tendency of the heart, along with the activities of the body, mind, and words, are flowing without any break in the service of Krsna, this is called uttama-bhakti.

 

 

 

Syamarani didi: Sripad Premaprayojana Prabhu mentioned, this verse is written in Srila Rupa Gosvami's Bhakti Rasamrta Sindhu, but where did he first get it? He heard it from Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu Himself. Mahaprabhu had given him instructions for ten days at Prayaga. Uttama-bhakti is the uninterrupted flow of all activities performed with the body, mind, intelligence, all the activities of the senses, and the spiritualized sentiments towards Krsna. It is only for the purpose of pleasing Krsna, without knowledge aimed at impersonal liberation, and without being covered by the desire to enjoy the fruit of our activities.

 

 

Karma must be there, activities must be there, but those activities should be under the influence of bhakti - not covering bhakti. In aropa-siddha bhakti, karma covers bhakti: "I like arts and crafts, I like to make pretty clothing. I worship the Deity so that I can be satisfied with the way in which I am designing clothing." This is not pure bhakti, because the devotee has some personal desire. He is superimposing the word bhakti on an activity that he wants to do for his own happiness.

 

 

Srila Rupa Gosvami and Caitanya Mahaprabhu are saying, 'jnana karmadi anavrtam.' Avrtam means covered. Bhakti should be uncovered. It should be the controller of our karma and our jnana. Even jnana, the knowledge that Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, gradually has to be changed to some relationship with Krsna in one of the five rasas - like that of the residents of Vrndavana - in order to come to the highest platform of uttama-bhakti.

 

 

Lord Brahma, the creator of the universe and the first spiritual master in our line, has stated that ultimately one has to give up jnana, the knowledge that Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, by hearing about His sweet pastimes from a pure devotee who has realized Krsna.

 

 

Our Guru Maharaja, Srila Prabhupada, has said that there are three stages. The first is 'under-knowledge'; less than knowledge, and that is atheism and mayavadism. Then there is the 'knowledge' that Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. When I have that faith by the association of a self realized soul, then I gradually come to the stage 'above knowledge', the stage where I realize my relationship with Krsna as my friend, as my master, as my son, or my beloved.

 

 

Anyabhilasita-sunyam jnana-karmady-anavrtam anukulyena krsnanu-silanam bhaktir uttama. Anusilanam means cultivation - of the physical, mental, intellectual, and sentimental activities - only for the pleasure of Krsna. Canura, and Mustika, the wrestlers in Mathura, were giving Krsna pleasure, because by their fighting they were giving Him a sense of heroism, and that made Him happy. But their activities were not bhakti. They wanted to kill Krsna. Bhakti depends on the motivation. In uttama-bhakti, not only does Krsna get pleasure, but the motivation is to give Krsna pleasure. The wrestlers gave Krsna pleasure, and mother Yasoda made Krsna cry, but she is the topmost uttama-bhakta. Why? Because her motive is, "I should punish Krsna so He won't be a thief and steal everyone's butter, and so that He'll grow up to have very good character."

 

 

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja: Has anyone any question about this? Have you understood the meaning?

 

 

Devotee: In krsna-lila, when the cowherd boys were in the forest fire and they asked Krsna, "O Krsna, Krsna save us, Balarama save us." was this just their lila? Is this going against uttama-bhakti?

 

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja: No, they are beyond uttama-bhakti. You cannot imagine their position. They are beyond uttama-bhakti. They are manifestations of Krsna Himself, and they are eternal associates. They came to this world only to fulfill the desires of Krsna. They are playing like ordinary boys to teach us. They are above our consideration.

 

 

The gopis, gopas, and all the associates of Goloka Vrndavana are above our consideration. They are like Krsna.

 

 

Devotee: If a person is on the neophyte platform, and he is cultivating devotional service in practice and trying his best even though he is full of desires, is that considered in the class of uttama-bhakti? Or, does he have to be on the spontaneous level to be classified as an uttama-bhakta?

 

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja: This question is wrong. Uttama-bhakti is not for general persons. It is beyond the calculation of kanistha-adhikaris. You are not even qualified to ask this question. Better to hear and serve gurudeva. By continually hearing, the proper questions will come. I request you to hear more and more, and first have an idea about bhakti - and then uttama-bhakti.

 

 

In bhakti, whatever you do is done for Krsna. This is simple. This is bhakti, but not uttama-bhakti. When the two symptoms, anyabhilasita sunyam and anakulyena krsnanusilanam are present, it is pure bhakti; otherwise not.

 

 

You should try with all your senses and all your activities to please gurudeva, but gurudeva should be bona fide. You should continually hear, as Pariksit Maharaja heard from Sukadeva Gosvami. In this age you should especially try to follow Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura in a practical way. You should read Jaiva Dharma from the beginning, from the first chapter, and especially the second part. Be like Brajanatha and Vijaya Kumara. Follow those who are really hearing everything from their gurudeva and are following. All questions are conclusively answered there in Jaiva Dharma.

 

 

We should not follow our uncontrolled mind. We should try to follow Brajanatha and Vijaya Kumara - how they were hearing and how they were totally engaged. Transcendental realization was coming into their hearts. If you are not fully hearing from your gurudeva, and you are engaged in so many speculations, you cannot follow bhakti. You must hear first what the two disciples heard from their gurudeva.

 

[Redsox]

The lady who wanted to make new costumes for the deities, how can we judge her for her desire to please krishna in that way when that desire has been placed there by krishna Himself? Also, if you try to listen and hear , listen and hear , and not think about or ask questions about krishna so that you can be an Uttama Bhaktha then are you doing this for krishna's pleasure or your pleasure to be an Uttama Bhakta? Or is this the wrong question to ask?

[Beggar]

 

The lady who wanted to make new costumes for the deities, how can we judge her for her desire to please krishna in that way when that desire has been placed there by krishna Himself?

 

If that was the case, but I don't think that is what she's talking about. Suppose that I am a musician that plays the guitar and I want to play for Krsna. The desire to play the guitar may be primary. What if my gurudeva sees that I am too attached to the guitar and says that, "I want you to learn to play the harmonium and do sweet bhajans like Bhaja Hare Mana by Govinda das." If my desire is to please gurudeva then I will do it. If not maybe I'll avoid gurudeva from that point on and then just play my guitar [for Krsna, at least in my mind].

[Redsox]

 

If my desire is to please gurudeva then I will do it. If not maybe I'll avoid gurudeva from that point on and then just play my guitar [for Krsna, at least in my mind].

 

And also the choice of option 1 or option 2 is also dependent on krishna.

[Beggar]

 

And also the choice of option 1 or option 2 is also dependent on krishna.

The jiva souls have minute free will and also our eternal nature is jive swaupa haya nitya krsna dasa, that we are eternal servants of Krsna. Anyway discussions are good but we need to hear from someone who has actually realized these things in their heart otherwise it is like empiric knowledge. I'm parroting nitya krsna dasa but I am really go-dasa or servant of my senses.

[Redsox]

 

The jiva souls have minute free will and also our eternal nature is jive swaupa haya nitya krsna dasa, that we are eternal servants of Krsna. Anyway discussions are good but we need to hear from someone who has actually realized these things in their heart otherwise it is like empiric knowledge. I'm parroting nitya krsna dasa but I am really go-dasa or servant of my senses.

 

I understand what you are saying, but I don't think surrendering to a guru is for me. I have already surrendered to the guru in my heart, so i will just wait for Him to arrive as kalki, if that takes millions of extra births , so be it.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

The quotations you provided basically put me under more confusion, where I cannot understand how Krishna who controls every aspect of living entity's modes of actions can ever get offended by it.

 

All actions are physically carried out by the modes of material nature, so the living entity really does no physical action. But the living entity creates the desire to perform the action, which triggers the modes of nature to perform the action. Thus the living entities are responsible for all actions, even though they don't physically perform them.

 

To give a rough example, I want to raise my arm and my arm raises. I think I was the doer and I raised my hand. In reality, I (the soul in the heart) had the desire to raise "my" hand. The paramatma checks our desire with our karma. If the two align, then he sanctions the nature (three modes) to raise your hand. Since there is no visible gap between our desire and the action (our arm raising) we come to think that we have done it - kartaham it manyate, "we think we are the doer". The reality is that all actions were carried out by the modes of material nature.

 

The living entity has the power to choose and create desires for action. And those desires are manifested in this imaginary world through the workings of the three modes of material nature. The living entity still is the one behind the scenes activating the modes through remote control using his desires. Thus he is held accountable for his "actions" even though he did not physically perform the actions. The point is that the modes of nature are never under the control of the living entity even though it appears so, but the living entity is actually under their control and entangled in this net of maya through his desires.

 

When someone says that Krishna is responsible for all bad actions since it is the modes of nature that are performing all actions, they are not seeing the root cause which is the desire created by the living entity. The living entity is ultimately responsible for all actions as the creator of the desire.

[shiva]

A liberated soul knows that everthing is being done under the control of paramatma. Therefore he takes no offense at anything because he sees the action of paramatma in everyone's actions. So what to make of the conception of aparadha?

 

We must understand that in the conditioned state people cannot see the control of paramatma in their lives, neither in the actions of others, nor in their own actions. They see people in control of what they do.

 

Just like on this forum, even though we can show countless verses from sastra which tell us that we are not in control of anything, still due to being conditioned souls almost everyone on this forum believes that they are controlling what they write, and that the other writers are also controlling what they write. This is seen to be true by how people relate to each other i.e. people are either constantly taking offense for being criticized, or are criticizing others as if they are controlling what they write.

 

This is all the sign of being conditioned by the illusion of control. People think they control what is going on in their mind, so they think they control what they write. They think others control what is going on in their minds, and so believe that those others control what they write as well. Even though many people on this forum have heard and believe in the teaching that we are not in control of anything, including the mind, still due to conditioning they cannot stop identifying with being controllers and believing others to be controllers. From this delusion people then take offense. A person who is free from conditioned consciousness is not under the illusion of being a controller, nor does he believe any other jiva is a controller. Therefore he takes no offense for himself nor is he offended on other people's behalf. He knows that everything going on is outside of the control of the jiva. So how can he take offense at that which has the sanction of and being guided by the Lord? He doesn't. Neither does the Lord. How can the Lord take offense at something he is controlling? He doesn't.

 

So what is the deal with aparadha? We must understand that the conditioned soul is constantly bewildered and cannot properly discern reality from unreality from moment to moment. Sometimes he may have a clarity of vision and see the Lord in control of everything , the next moment he is totally deluded and sees himself or so many different controllers of what he experiences. In this way the conditioned soul exists in a reality that is unreal. The path of bhakti is designed to elevate the conditioned soul to the transcendental plane, to take the jiva from constant unreality to permanent reality. Along the way the bhakta will go through stages where sometimes he will have clarity of vision, and other times deluded vision. When he is deluded he will take offense for himself or for others due to not seeing the true nature of reality ( i.e. that God is always in control of and has planned out what you will experience). One method Krishna has created in which to use the deluded vision of the bhakta for his own good, is the concept of vaisnava aparadha, or other types of spiritual aparadha.

 

Bhaktas laboring under the delusion of control can be aided in their bhakti development by emotional attachments to devotional ethics. For example, when Mahaprabhu showed anger due to Nityananda being attacked, or any other display of anger by Krishna, or that of any other avatar in their lilas, the reality is that God is not really angry. God is controlling what everyone does, so there is no question of God ever being angry at what people do. In the material realm people are controlled by paramatma to fulfill their karmic destiny, everything they do is their destiny, planned out and guided by paramatma. In the liberated realm also people are controlled, but instead of being led by paramatma to fulfill karmic destiny, they are controlled by yogamaya, which performs the role of paramatma in the spiritual world i.e. plans out everything and guides everyone to enhance rasa. Either way God is always 100% in full control of everything at all times. So God cannot be angry. But there are displays of anger which serve the purpose of aiding in devotional sentiment, to enhance rasa. But the anger is not real, it is an illusion designed to create a particular devotional mood in order to enhance rasa with the devotees in those lilas. The devotees in those lilas where anger is shown (or fear, or other delusional sentiments) due to the influence of yogamaya, are led to believe that Krishna or some other avatar or devotee can be hurt in some way. Therefore that fear of their beloved coming to harm adds something to the rasa in those lilas.

 

So in the same way for the bhaktas who are not in lila, but who are on the progressive path, the path of bhakti, the concept of aparadha is used to create emotional development of the bhakta. Devotees can and do get angry when they see their beloved guru or devotee friend "offended" in some way, they can and do get angry if they see Krishna or the sastra or bhakti "offended" in some way. While these are all delusions due to not being steady in their vision of seeing the control of the Lord in all circumstances in all actions, still these concepts of aparadha serve the purpose of developing a certain devotional mood of the bhakta, not totally unlike the anger of the liberated associates of the Lord in lila under the control of yogamaya.

 

So even though the concept of aparadha is based on a delusional understanding of reality, still it has been designed to aid those under delusion in the development of devotional sentiments. Still we are advised to rise above the delusional platform, to come to the vision of reality which is free from all illusions:

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 11.13.24

 

manasā vacasā dṛṣṭyā

gṛhyate 'nyair apīndriyaih

aham eva na matto 'nyad

iti budhyadhvam añjasā

 

SYNONYMS

 

manasā — by the mind; vacasā — by speech; dṛṣṭyā — by sight; gṛhyate — is perceived and thus accepted; anyaiḥ — by others; api — even; indriyaiḥ — senses; aham — I; eva — indeed; na — not; mattaḥ — besides Me; anyat — anything else; iti — thus; budhyadhvam — you should all understand; añjasā — by straightforward analysis of the facts.

 

TRANSLATION

 

Within this world, whatever is perceived by the mind, speech, eyes or other senses is Me alone and nothing besides Me. All of you please understand this by a straightforward analysis of the facts.

[Redsox]

 

The point is that the modes of nature are never under the control of the living entity even though it appears so, but the living entity is actually under their control and entangled in this net of maya through his desires.

 

When someone says that Krishna is responsible for all bad actions since it is the modes of nature that are performing all actions, they are not seeing the root cause which is the desire created by the living entity. The living entity is ultimately responsible for all actions as the creator of the desire.

 

I agree. The karma from the living entity's desire has to have a result and it needs to enjoy the good or bad results it reaps.

[Redsox]

 

So in the same way for the bhaktas who are not in lila, but who are on the progressive path, the path of bhakti, the concept of aparadha is used to create emotional development of the bhakta. Devotees can and do get angry when they see their beloved guru or devotee friend "offended" in some way, they can and do get angry if they see Krishna or the sastra or bhakti "offended" in some way. While these are all delusions due to not being steady in their vision of seeing the control of the Lord in all circumstances in all actions, still these concepts of aparadha serve the purpose of developing a certain devotional mood of the bhakta, not totally unlike the anger of the liberated associates of the Lord in lila under the control of yogamaya.

 

So even though the concept of aparadha is based on a delusional understanding of reality, still it has been designed to aid those under delusion in the development of devotional sentiments. Still we are advised to rise above the delusional platform, to come to the vision of reality which is free from all illusions

 

Amazing! thank you. haha:P