My problems with the philosophy of Srila Prabhupada

[LoveroftheBhagavata]

It is true that the term demigod is an unsatisfactory rendering of the Sanskrit word Deva. I myself translate it as god, with a little g, just to differentiate the Devas from Bhagavan. However, Krishna tells Arjuna unequivocally that His worship is topmost, so in the end it matters not that much I suppose. However, the Devatas and Devis are direct, confidential associates and servants of Lord Hari, and holding Them in high regard is essential for any serious sadhaka. This is something about which many modern Vaishnavas, especially those who draw their knowledge from ISKCON and to a lesser extent the Gaudiya Matha, are sorely lacking in. Traditional/non-Sarasvata Gaudiya Vaishnavas undoubtedly fare way better in this regard.

 

For instance, the Bhagavatam tells us that Lord Shiva is the greatest Vaishnava, but the shameful lack of respect with which He is talked about by many a disciple of Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada is simply revolting. Some will even twist and turn facts and quotes and go to any extent to show that Christ was a true divine envoy, but they lack the requisite qualities to appreciate a direct scriptural statement from the Bhagavata (our primary shastra), concerning the exalted nature of Mahadeva. Kulapavanaji's post above is especially commendable in this connection, coming from an ISKCON member. Haribol Prabhu!

[suchandra]

 

 

For instance, the Bhagavatam tells us that Lord Shiva is the greatest Vaishnava, but the shameful lack of respect with which He is talked about by many a disciple of Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada is simply revolting.

Thanks for posting LoveroftheBhagavata, could rather be that Prabhupada's knowledge is so voluminous that we cannot expect that anyone is fully capable to know in detail what is being taught. Below Prabhupada says the same in 1975, vaisnavānām yathā śambhuḥ:

 

Prabhupāda: No, vaisnavānām yathā śambhuḥ: “Amongst the Vaiṣṇavas, Śaṁbhu, Lord Śiva, is the greatest Vaisnava.” So we worship Lord Śiva as Vaiṣṇava. We gives respect to Vaiṣṇavas. So why not Lord Śiva? Lord Śiva is a big Vaisnava. But generally, the devotees of Lord Śiva, they take Lord Śiva is independent God. That is offensive. If you know that Lord Śiva is also a devotee, you can give more respect to Lord Śiva. Krishna will be pleased.

Devotee (3): Śrīla Prabhupāda, he does not chant Hare Krishna, he chants oṁ śivāya namaḥ.

Prabhupāda: That’s all right.

Devotee (3): It’s all right?

Prabhupāda: He will gradually become devotee. When God, Lord Śiva, will be pleased upon him, he will advise to worship.

 

Room Conversation

after Press Conference

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

July 9, 1975, Chicago

http://causelessmercy.com/t/t/750709rc.chi.htm

 

 

Prabhupāda: No, there are devotees. Just like we, we offer all respect to Lord Śiva. We consider Śiva as the best of the Vaisnavas. Vaisnavānām yathā śambhu. And we have got sampradāya from Śiva. He is considered one of the authority of Vaisnavism.

 

Conversation with

Professor Hopkins

His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

July 13, 1975, Philadelphia

http://causelessmercy.com/t/t/750713rc.phi.htm

 

 

33. Causelessmercy - Ebook - Srimad-Bhagavatam - Canto 4 - 4.1

It is stated, vaiṣṇavānāṁ yathā śambhuḥ. Śambhu, Lord Śiva, is the greatest of all devotees of Lord Viṣṇu. In the previous verses, Satī has described that Lord

<small>http://causelessmercy.com/SB4.4.1.htm

</small>

34. Causelessmercy - Ebook - Srimad-Bhagavatam - Canto 4 - 2

It is also stated, vaiṣṇavānāṁ yathā śambhuḥ: Śambhu, Lord Śiva, is the greatest of all Vaiṣṇavas. On one hand he is the worshipable object of the dull demons,

<small>http://causelessmercy.com/SB4.2.htm

</small>46. Causelessmercy - Ebook - Srimad-Bhagavatam - Canto 3 - 23

Vaiṣṇavānāṁ yathā śambhuḥ: Śambhu, or Lord Śiva, is the ideal Vaiṣṇava. He constantly meditates upon Lord Rāma and chants Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma,

<small>http://causelessmercy.com/SB3.23.htm

</small>TRANSLATION

Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.3.20

 

Lord Brahmā, Bhagavān Nārada, Lord Śiva, the four Kumāras, Lord Kapila [the son of Devahūti], Svāyambhuva Manu, Prahlāda Mahārāja, Janaka Mahārāja, Grandfather Bhīṣma, Bali Mahārāja, Śukadeva Gosvāmī and I myself know the real religious principle. My dear servants, this transcendental religious principle, which is known as bhāgavata-dharma, or surrender unto the Supreme Lord and love for Him, is uncontaminated by the material modes of nature. It is very confidential and difficult for ordinary human beings to understand, but if by chance one fortunately understands it, he is immediately liberated, and thus he returns home, back to Godhead.

 

PURPORT

In Bhagavad-gītā Lord Kṛṣṇa refers to bhāgavata-dharma as the most confidential religious principle (sarva-guhyatamam, guhyād guhyataram). Kṛṣṇa says to Arjuna, "Because you are My very dear friend, I am explaining to you the most confidential religion." Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaḿ śaraṇaḿ vraja: [Bg. 18.66] "Give up all other duties and surrender unto Me." One may ask, "If this principle is very rarely understood, what is the use of it?" In answer, Yamarāja states herein that this religious principle is understandable if one follows the paramparā system of Lord Brahmā, Lord Śiva, the four Kumāras and the other standard authorities.

 

 

There are four lines of disciplic succession: one from Lord Brahmā, one from Lord Śiva, one from Lakṣmī, the goddess of fortune, and one from the Kumāras. The disciplic succession from Lord Brahmā is called the Brahma-sampradāya, the succession from Lord Śiva (Sambhu<layer id="google-toolbar-hilite-0" style="background-color: Yellow; color: black;"></layer>) is called the Rudra-sampradāya, the one from the goddess of fortune, Lakṣmījī, is called the Śrī-sampradāya, and the one from the Kumāras is called the Kumāra-sampradāya. One must take shelter of one of these four sampradāyas in order to understand the most confidential religious system. In the Padma Purāṇa it is said, sampradāya-vihīnā ye mantrās te niṣphalā matāḥ: if one does not follow the four recognized disciplic successions, his mantra or initiation is useless. In the present day there are many apasampradāyas, or sampradāyas which are not bona fide, which have no link to authorities like Lord Brahmā, Lord Śiva, the Kumāras or Lakṣmī. People are misguided by such sampradāyas. The śāstras say that being initiated in such a sampradāya is a useless waste of time, for it will never enable one to understand the real religious principles.

[Tantrayoga]

 

Haribol all!

 

As I had mentioned in another thread I don't think the philosophy or works of Srila Prabhupada are without flaw. I'd like to outline my problems with his philosophical ideas here, and give a chance for any of his followers to address these problems I have.

 

First and foremost is the demi-god concept (a concept I see in not just ISKCON, but Vaishnavism all together). Amongst the so-called demigods are Indra, and Yamaraj. However in RigVeda 1:164:46 we find This would contradict the idea held by ISKCON that these deities are seperate from Vishnu and inferior compared to him, seeming to indicate that rather they are other facets or forms of Vishnu.

 

There's more to come, but unfortunatley I have to run at the moment.

 

Hairbol all!

 

OMG Baobad man!!! Now you just put your hand in the beehive!! Now all the Hare Krsna who preach that gyana and scriptural flowery words are not above simple hearted pure bhakti will impound you with the various scriptural jugglery and their gaudiya shloka philosophy prowess!!!

 

As JN das clearly stated that The Gaudiya system is in direct contradiction to Hinduism, Brahm and advaita, there is no use arguing or expecting any debate!!! The Hare Krsna world in categprized into two segments - Vaishnavas (essentially Gaudiya Vaishnavas as the supreme) and non Vaishnavas or the - Karmis, Mayavadis, etc. etc. If you are under the Gaudiya Umbrella, then you are safe talking! Otherwise not!!

 

This has always been my experience. And I talk from experience. Not just "purports" of someone else!!! I know this message will be taken as "offensive" on a pro hare Krsna forum. But i'm tired of being pseudo humble and saying sorry, when none of the Hare Krsna's say sorry for putting down Shri Shankaracharya, the vedic rishis, Lord Shiva as a mere "demi-God", saying Shiva worship is done by people of low intelligence when Krishna himself extensively worshipped Shiva becoming a Shaiva!! The Gaudiya philosophy is a one sided view of spiritual life, is very rigid and does not entertain any other view point. It does accept that God has many possibilities, but it does not find it acceptable to accept those possibilities, forms or ways to reach him. Everything has a double standard sadly.

[theist]

Many people seem to think that unless you agree to give equal status to everything and everyone then you are being offensive and narrow minded. I consider this very lazy and weak minded thinking.

 

There simply are varying levels of consciousness available for the living entity to suffer or enjoy. It should be obvious. For instance the pleasure derived by the pig eating freshly laid stool and the pleasure of the denizens in heaven are not o the same level although at the time and due to maya's influence the pig may disagree thinking fresh stoolis a heavenly delight.

 

The pleasure derived in heaven is still mixed to a degree with ignorance and passion and the soul is still subject to samsara so brahman realization is considered higher when both are compared from a neutral viewpoint.

 

Brahman realization or sayuja-mukti is further seen as pale in comparison to having an active rasa with Krsna in seritude, friendship, parental or conjugal mood. Which means that those who teach simple absorbtion in to the Absolute are teaching a lesser realization than those that teach a loving exchange (rasa) with the Absolute as the person He is.

 

Simple truth. There are gradations of ananda in life. If someone says they don't believe that and it is ultimately all one experience then we can ask them why they are trying to raise their own consciousness and are not satisfied with what they have now.

 

They are trying to raise their consciousness to experience a higher state of ananda.

 

Even within the four rasa's mention there are gradations of intimacy between them. Friendship will contain servitude by servitude may not contain friendship. And both may be found with within conjugal but conjugal may not be in them.

 

Variety is the spice of life and that means spiritual life as well.

 

I can respect Lord Buddha Sankaracarya and even Lao Tsu and Rumi without being a follower of them or wanting to achieve the goal of life as they describe it.

 

Yes Gaudiya vaisnavas think their way is the best. That is why they follow that path and are known a Gaudiya Vaisnava's. Other Vaisnava's think their angle on Vaisnavism is best. The Advaitins think the Vaisnavas are all sentimentalists. To each his own.

 

We are not under any obligation to accept anything and everything as being equal. Likewise not every teacher is equal in the siddhanta they teach or the way they live that siddhanta out in their personal lives.

 

So make your choice in who to follow and good luck to you. If you don't like the choice I have made so what? It's simply none of your business anyway and your opinion means nothing to me. I don't seek out your places of association and then go there to criticize your guru so why do you come here? What is your motive.

 

Honest questions are encouraged and disagreements and doubts are there in all of us. But this mocking tone is childish and disruptive.

 

Just one soul's opinion.

[Tantrayoga]

 

Many people seem to think that unless you agree to give equal status to everything and everyone then you are being offensive and narrow minded. I consider this very lazy and weak minded thinking.

 

There simply are varying levels of consciousness available for the living entity to suffer or enjoy. It should be obvious. For instance the pleasure derived by the pig eating freshly laid stool and the pleasure of the denizens in heaven are not o the same level although at the time and due to maya's influence the pig may disagree thinking fresh stoolis a heavenly delight.

 

The pleasure derived in heaven is still mixed to a degree with ignorance and passion and the soul is still subject to samsara so brahman realization is considered higher when both are compared from a neutral viewpoint.

 

Brahman realization or sayuja-mukti is further seen as pale in comparison to having an active rasa with Krsna in seritude, friendship, parental or conjugal mood. Which means that those who teach simple absorbtion in to the Absolute are teaching a lesser realization than those that teach a loving exchange (rasa) with the Absolute as the person He is.

 

Simple truth. There are gradations of ananda in life. If someone says they don't believe that and it is ultimately all one experience then we can ask them why they are trying to raise their own consciousness and are not satisfied with what they have now.

 

They are trying to raise their consciousness to experience a higher state of ananda.

 

Even within the four rasa's mention there are gradations of intimacy between them. Friendship will contain servitude by servitude may not contain friendship. And both may be found with within conjugal but conjugal may not be in them.

 

Variety is the spice of life and that means spiritual life as well.

 

I can respect Lord Buddha Sankaracarya and even Lao Tsu and Rumi without being a follower of them or wanting to achieve the goal of life as they describe it.

 

Yes Gaudiya vaisnavas think their way is the best. That is why they follow that path and are known a Gaudiya Vaisnava's. Other Vaisnava's think their angle on Vaisnavism is best. The Advaitins think the Vaisnavas are all sentimentalists. To each his own.

 

We are not under any obligation to accept anything and everything as being equal. Likewise not every teacher is equal in the siddhanta they teach or the way they live that siddhanta out in their personal lives.

 

So make your choice in who to follow and good luck to you. If you don't like the choice I have made so what? It's simply none of your business anyway and your opinion means nothing to me. I don't seek out your places of association and then go there to criticize your guru so why do you come here? What is your motive.

 

Honest questions are encouraged and disagreements and doubts are there in all of us. But this mocking tone is childish and disruptive.

 

Just one soul's opinion.

 

Another common Hare Krishna MISCONCEPTION about mukti and Brahm!!

The Hare Krsna's think that ONLY Gaudiya Vaishnava has it all. All the Rasa!!

The highest stage of rasa is Nirvikalpa samadhi. Its impossible without rasa. The bhakti elements of highest order are present in yogis and bhakti happily is not a monopoly of Gaudiya sampradaya indeed. So what's new? The loving relation between God and devotee is pure ananda. And the good thing about it is that its available to the mundane and those able to reach the higher levels of consciousness and rasa!

But then as I said, the Hare Krsna narrow world is divided into two - Hare Krsna devotees and the rest of the world!! ;-)

You said you "don't seek "our/my" places of association so why I / we come here? Wrong!!! You are everywhere - malls, airports, streets, approaching houses everywhere! When your Guru criticized everybody around, he should have been ready to receive some of it back? Law of Karma eh?

No. I'm not here to criticize anybody really. That's not the motive!! If my opinion meant "nothing" to you, you wouldn't have cared to reply to my post that wasn't addressing you.

 

We all share the common society, the world. Its fine - to each his own faith. The HK has every right to believe they are the best!! But you evoke confrontation by confronting. Simple. You don't remain happy simply worshipping!! That would've been attractive!! You don't simply say you believe in your line of philosophy. No. You go beyond that. Advaitins, impersonalists, yogis, sages, saints and everybody else are "Fools and Rascals" and people with "lower intelligence"!!! That's where you go into other people's business!!! You are not just minding your own business dude!! That's the reason of "mocking tone"! Its not childish. You want to remain aloof everybody posing "Maharaj" calling them fools n rascals n putting down and if they react they are "childish" Nice.

Let me disagree with your philosophy and see the garb of humbleness come off in a jiffy!! I've seen it a million times in the past 25 years!! And then I seek one truly humble loving Vaishnava! And he becomes my best friend!

Gaudiya label or not!! I do not care!!! The Soul is not "Gaudiya" or non Gaudiya!! Nor is Krishna!!!

Hare Krsna!!

[raghu]

Dear Tantra guy,

 

You obviously have some issues with Hare Krishna people. That, and you can't seem to keep your fingers off the exclamation mark key. I am not a Gaudiya Vaishnava, so I am not going to get into all of that. All I want to know is, when you make statements like this -

 

 

The highest stage of rasa is Nirvikalpa samadhi.

 

 

... on what pramana are you basing it? Is it merely your own opinion, and you want to us to accept it on that basis? Or is there some other evidence to substantiate this?

[Beggar]

 

And then I seek one truly humble loving Vaishnava! And he becomes my best friend!

 

Maybe your not looking hard enough.

[Tantrayoga]

 

Dear Tantra guy,

 

You obviously have some issues with Hare Krishna people. That, and you can't seem to keep your fingers off the exclamation mark key. I am not a Gaudiya Vaishnava, so I am not going to get into all of that. All I want to know is, when you make statements like this -

 

... on what pramana are you basing it? Is it merely your own opinion, and you want to us to accept it on that basis? Or is there some other evidence to substantiate this?

 

Raghu ji,

 

Namaskar.

 

Well, yog is not essentially a topic for vedantic debate. Its more experiential.

rasa is experiential. Thus yoga. Bhakti is also yoga as its experience based. To give "pramana" of taste and rasa is to talk of explaining the taste of rajbhog to someone who never taster sugar or anything sweet. I am not talking this personally in terms of you. I'm making a general statement.

 

I cant seem to keep my finger off the exclamation key? Is that a problem?

Yes I'm expressive!

 

Of course my statements are not based solely on my own opinion. And I'm not implying that all of you have to accept it. Gaudiyas are good accepting their own versions of stories and milk curd, Shiva 87% etc. theories. No problem. Problem is with the put down of others! (here goes the exclamation mark).

[Tantrayoga]

 

Maybe your not looking hard enough.

Dear Beggar, Of course I have met many good people amongst the Gaudiyas / Iskconites. But the general tendency and preaching is thus. Usually the humble ones don't have much scriptural knowledge. I've met some of the 'servants' of highly perched Gurus more humble and nice than the Gurus themselves, who are busy basking in their own glory.

[theist]

 

If my opinion meant "nothing" to you, you wouldn't have cared to reply to my post that wasn't addressing you.

 

 

I didn't address my post to you sir. Feeling overly defensive is often a sign of being sub-conciously aware of having been offensive. Maybe not for you. Perhaps the shoe just fit and because my post followed yours you assumed to be targeted. But actually this is a phenomena that is years old and was meant for many.

[Tantrayoga]

 

Prabhupāda: Yes. Don’t dictate God. The demigod worshipers, they dictate, dhanaṁ dehi, rūpaṁ dehi, yaśo de… This dehi, dehi, dehi. Therefore they are condemned. In the Bhagavad-gītā they have been condemned. Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ prapadyante [Bg. 7.20]. He is so kāmuka, he is ordering God. Kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ. But that order cannot be carried by God, but the demigods, they sometimes become flattered and give this benediction. So Krishna said, tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām: “This kind of flattering the demigods and take some benediction,” antavat tu phalaṁ teṣāṁ tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām. Order… You cannot order God, but you can flatter these demigods. And therefore people are very much fond of flattering these demigods because…

Indian man (1): Just to get material wealth. Material happiness.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that’s it. Tad bhavaty alpa-medhasām. Antavat tu phalaṁ teṣām. All this material happiness, you may get it, but it will be finished with your body. Krishna says that teṣāṁ satata-yuktānāṁ bhajatāṁ prīti-pūrvakam, dadāmi buddhi-yoga [Bg. 10.10]. He says, “I will give intelligence. There is no question of asking. If you become a devotee, sincere devotee, I’ll give you everything without your asking.” You understand, follow? So you qualify yourself. That is wanted. That qualification is sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇam [Bg. 18.66]. He is always prepared to give you light. Just like sunlight is open always, but if you keep yourself in the dark room, how you can take benefit of the sunlight? Your business is to come before the sun; then everything will be all right. [break] …used to sing like that, sab ke sampatti de bhagavān. Raghupati rāghava rāja… You know? Sab ke sampatti de bhagavān. De bhagavān? What is this nonsense? He’s asking, de bhagavān.

Tamāla Krishna: What does that mean, “de bhagavān?”

Guḍākeśa: “Give me.”

Prabhupāda: Give him. Sab ke sampatti de bhagavān.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: That’s for the demigods.

Prabhupāda: No, he has no sense what is God. This is going on.

 

Morning Walks

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

January 22-23, 1976, Māyāpura

 

Asking Gods for material gains is shastra sammat! Where does Krishna say in Bhagwad Gita don't ask anything? Asking is not "ordering"!! Prabhupada twisted sanskrit word of "Dehi" to ordering! If its an order, then its not flattery!! (I know some people don't like exclamation marks in my posts) And here in lies the double standard. Double standards don't work in spiritual life. Gods are not flattered. You may burn a thousand lamps of ghee and make all prasadam and keep selling mahaprasadam at higher prices. This flatery doesn't work in pleasing the Gods. Gods don't help unless you are sincere.

When Krishna wanted to please Lord Shiva he had to do rigorous Pashupat sadhna. So did Arjuna approach Indra and Shiva and probably did say "dehi" to fulfill his aim of getting divine weapons. So this doesn't go in line with the Vedic culture. The Vedic culture doesn't preach to live a life of poverty. But it does teach non attachment to the riches and not falling from spiritual life. In practice, Prabhupada never ceased to keep on collecting rich funds for his organization. But his message of keeping the desires of running after material gains alone came on right time for the western people having only material life perspective to life.

[raghu]

 

Raghu ji,

 

Namaskar.

 

Well, yog is not essentially a topic for vedantic debate. Its more experiential.

rasa is experiential. Thus yoga. Bhakti is also yoga as its experience based. To give "pramana" of taste and rasa is to talk of explaining the taste of rajbhog to someone who never taster sugar or anything sweet. I am not talking this personally in terms of you. I'm making a general statement.

 

I cant seem to keep my finger off the exclamation key? Is that a problem?

Yes I'm expressive!

 

Of course my statements are not based solely on my own opinion. And I'm not implying that all of you have to accept it. Gaudiyas are good accepting their own versions of stories and milk curd, Shiva 87% etc. theories. No problem. Problem is with the put down of others! (here goes the exclamation mark).

 

This is a very verbose answer to what was a very simple question. Perhaps I need to be more clear.

 

The question, simplified, is this - how do you know that what you assert to be true is in fact correct?

[Tantrayoga]

 

I didn't address my post to you sir. Feeling overly defensive is often a sign of being sub-conciously aware of having been offensive. Maybe not for you. Perhaps the shoe just fit and because my post followed yours you assumed to be targeted. But actually this is a phenomena that is years old and was meant for many.

 

Throwing the universally fitting shoe vaguely at the crowd was an interesting thing Theist.

[Tantrayoga]

 

This is a very verbose answer to what was a very simple question. Perhaps I need to be more clear.

 

The question, simplified, is this - how do you know that what you assert to be true is in fact correct?

 

The same way, as the Hare Krishnas are in love with a Krishna they have never seen or met. Through the experience of Bona-fide Gurus and Yogis. oh and Krishna himself talks of samadhi too. I don't memorize quote numbers though.

[suchandra]

 

Asking Gods for material gains is shastra sammat! Where does Krishna say in Bhagwad Gita don't ask anything? Asking is not "ordering"!! Prabhupada twisted sanskrit word of "Dehi" to ordering! If its an order, then its not flattery!! (I know some people don't like exclamation marks in my posts) And here in lies the double standard. Double standards don't work in spiritual life. Gods are not flattered. You may burn a thousand lamps of ghee and make all prasadam and keep selling mahaprasadam at higher prices. This flatery doesn't work in pleasing the Gods. Gods don't help unless you are sincere.

When Krishna wanted to please Lord Shiva he had to do rigorous Pashupat sadhna. So did Arjuna approach Indra and Shiva and probably did say "dehi" to fulfill his aim of getting divine weapons. So this doesn't go in line with the Vedic culture. The Vedic culture doesn't preach to live a life of poverty. But it does teach non attachment to the riches and not falling from spiritual life. In practice, Prabhupada never ceased to keep on collecting rich funds for his organization. But his message of keeping the desires of running after material gains alone came on right time for the western people having only material life perspective to life.

Lord Indra once thought in the 10th Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam the same as you do, somehow when seeing with his own eyes Lord Krishna lifting Govardahana Hill with just one finger he reconsidered. May be you should follow the example of Lord Indra:

 

25. Devastating Rainfall in Vrindavan

Tenth canto of the Bhagavata Purana

 

"When Indra understood that the sacrifice offered by the cowherd men in Vrndavana was stopped by Krsna, he became angry, and he vented his anger upon the inhabitants of Vrndavana, who were headed by Nanda Maharaja, although Indra knew perfectly well that Krsna was personally protecting them. As the director of different kinds of clouds, Indra called for the Samvartaka. This cloud is invited when there is a need to devastate the whole cosmic manifestation. The Samvartaka was ordered by Indra to go over Vrndavana and inundate the whole area with an extensive flood. Demonically, Indra thought himself to be the all-powerful supreme personality. When demons become very powerful, they defy the supreme controller, Personality of Godhead. Indra, though not a demon, was puffed up by his material position, and he wanted to challenge the supreme controller. He thought himself, at least for the time being, as powerful as Krsna. Indra said, "Just see the impudence of the inhabitants of Vrndavana! They are simply inhabitants of the forest, but being infatuated with their friend Krsna, who is nothing but an ordinary human being, they have dared to defy the demigods." Krsna has declared in the Bhagavad-gita that the worshipers of the demigods are not very intelligent. He has also declared that one has to give up all kinds of worship and simply concentrate on Krsna consciousness. Krsna's invoking the anger of Indra and later on chastising him is a clear indication to His devotee that those who are engaged in Krsna consciousness have no need to worship any demigod, even if it is found that the demigod has become angry. Krsna gives His devotees all protection, and they should completely depend on His mercy.

Indra cursed the action of the inhabitants of Vrndavana and said, "By defying the authority of the demigods, the inhabitants of Vrndavana will suffer in material existence. Having neglected the sacrifice to the demigods, they cannot cross over the impediments of the ocean of material miseries." Indra further declared, "These cowherd men in Vrndavana have neglected my authority on the advice of this talkative boy who is known as Krsna. He is nothing but a child, and by believing this child, they have enraged me." Thus he ordered the Samvartaka cloud to go and destroy the prosperity of Vrndavana. "The men of Vrndavana," said Indra, "have become too puffed up over their material opulence and their confidene in the presene of their tiny friend, Krsna. He is simply talkative, childish, and unaware of the complete cosmic situation, although He is thinking Himself very advanced in knowledge. Because they have taken Krsna so seriously, they must be punished, and so I have ordered the Samvartaka cloud to go to there and inundate the place. They should be destroyed with their cows."

 

 

It is indicated here that in the villages or outside the towns, the inhabitants must depend on the cows for their prosperity. When the cows are destroyed, the people are destitute of all kinds of opulences. When King Indra ordered the Samvartaka and companion clouds to go to Vrndavana, the clouds were afraid of the assignment. But King Indra assured them, "You go ahead, and I will also go, riding on my elephant, accompanied by great storms. And I shall apply all my strength to punish the inhabitants of Vrndavana."

Ordered by King Indra, all the dangerous clouds appeared above Vrndavana and began to pour water incessantly, with all their strength and power. There was constant lightning and thunder, blowing of severe wind and incessant falling of rain. The rainfall seemed to fall like piercing sharp arrows. By pouring water as thick as pillars, without cessation, the clouds gradually filled all the lands in Vrndavana with water, and there was no visible distinction between higher and lower land. The situation was very dangerous, especially for the animals. The rainfall was accompanied by great winds, and every living creature in Vrndavana began to tremble from the severe cold. Unable to find any other source of deliverance, they all approached Govinda to take shelter at His lotus feet. The cows especially, being much aggrieved from the heavy rain, bowed down their heads, and taking their calves underneath their bodies, they approached the Supreme Personality of Godhead to take shelter of His lotus feet. At that time all the inhabitants of Vrndavana began to pray to Lord Krsna. "Dear Krsna," they prayed, "You are all-powerful, and You are very affectionate to Your devotees. Now please protect us who have been much harassed by angry Indra."

 

 

 

full story: Devastating Rainfall In Vrindavan

[raghu]

In response to my question about how you know that what you say is right, you wrote:

 

 

The same way, as the Hare Krishnas are in love with a Krishna they have never seen or met. Through the experience of Bona-fide Gurus and Yogis. oh and Krishna himself talks of samadhi too. I don't memorize quote numbers though.

 

To me, you and the Hare Krishnas seem to have a lot in common, not the least of which is your propensity to articulate religious views without any obvious attempt to authenticate them on the basis of some mutually-accepted standard of evidence.

 

Is the strength of your belief system rooted firmly in the idea that because they do it, then so will you?

[Tantrayoga]

 

Lord Indra once thought in the 10th Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam the same as you do, somehow when seeing with his own eyes Lord Krishna lifting Govardahana Hill with just one finger he reconsidered. May be you should follow the example of Lord Indra:

 

Indra thought as I do?? Indra is a God! If Gods think like me then I should be flattered. Suchandra, I don't really get impressed by using Bhagwatam example and examples of how Krsna punished such n such persona and if I say or do something then it would imply the exact same thing. Krsna is not lifting Govardhan's everyday. A devotee was murdered in New Vrindavana and his body was secretly burried there by the management or whoever they were.. What did Krsna do? I'll be glad to rise upto the level of Indra and then confront Krsna only to fall under his holy feet. Lord Hanuman lifted a whole mountain too. Lord Shiva protected hsi devotee Markandya from the God of Death Yama. What's the point?

 

 

"When Indra understood that the sacrifice offered by the cowherd men in Vrndavana was stopped by Krsna, he became angry, and he vented his anger upon the inhabitants of Vrndavana, who were headed by Nanda Maharaja, although Indra knew perfectly well that Krsna was personally protecting them. As the director of different kinds of clouds, Indra called for the Samvartaka. This cloud is invited when there is a need to devastate the whole cosmic manifestation.

 

There is something wrong in the translation or somewhere here. A cloud with whic Indra annihilates the "whole cosmic manifestation"?? Indra can't do that. That is Lord Shiva's right and job. Shiva can annihilate the whole cosmic manifestation.

 

 

The Samvartaka was ordered by Indra to go over Vrndavana and inundate the whole area with an extensive flood. Demonically, Indra thought himself to be the all-powerful supreme personality. When demons become very powerful, they defy the supreme controller, Personality of Godhead.

 

lol! I think you are confusing me with Indra in some way Suchandra ji! I'm not defying Krsna or considering myself as Krsna in anyways! lol. This is a common scare tactic. I think this distortion is uncalled for.

 

 

Indra, though not a demon, was puffed up by his material position, and he wanted to challenge the supreme controller. He thought himself, at least for the time being, as powerful as Krsna. Indra said, "Just see the impudence of the inhabitants of Vrndavana! They are simply inhabitants of the forest, but being infatuated with their friend Krsna, who is nothing but an ordinary human being, they have dared to defy the demigods." Krsna has declared in the Bhagavad-gita that the worshipers of the demigods are not very intelligent. He has also declared that one has to give up all kinds of worship and simply concentrate on Krsna consciousness. Krsna's invoking the anger of Indra and later on chastising him is a clear indication to His devotee that those who are engaged in Krsna consciousness have no need to worship any demigod, even if it is found that the demigod has become angry. Krsna gives His devotees all protection, and they should completely depend on His mercy.

Indra cursed the action of the inhabitants of Vrndavana and said, "By defying the authority of the demigods, the inhabitants of Vrndavana will suffer in material existence. Having neglected the sacrifice to the demigods, they cannot cross over the impediments of the ocean of material miseries." Indra further declared, "These cowherd men in Vrndavana have neglected my authority on the advice of this talkative boy who is known as Krsna. He is nothing but a child, and by believing this child, they have enraged me." Thus he ordered the Samvartaka cloud to go and destroy the prosperity of Vrndavana. "The men of Vrndavana," said Indra, "have become too puffed up over their material opulence and their confidene in the presene of their tiny friend, Krsna. He is simply talkative, childish, and unaware of the complete cosmic situation, although He is thinking Himself very advanced in knowledge. Because they have taken Krsna so seriously, they must be punished, and so I have ordered the Samvartaka cloud to go to there and inundate the place. They should be destroyed with their cows."

It is indicated here that in the villages or outside the towns, the inhabitants must depend on the cows for their prosperity. When the cows are destroyed, the people are destitute of all kinds of opulences. When King Indra ordered the Samvartaka and companion clouds to go to Vrndavana, the clouds were afraid of the assignment. But King Indra assured them, "You go ahead, and I will also go, riding on my elephant, accompanied by great storms. And I shall apply all my strength to punish the inhabitants of Vrndavana."

Ordered by King Indra, all the dangerous clouds appeared above Vrndavana and began to pour water incessantly, with all their strength and power. There was constant lightning and thunder, blowing of severe wind and incessant falling of rain. The rainfall seemed to fall like piercing sharp arrows. By pouring water as thick as pillars, without cessation, the clouds gradually filled all the lands in Vrndavana with water, and there was no visible distinction between higher and lower land. The situation was very dangerous, especially for the animals. The rainfall was accompanied by great winds, and every living creature in Vrndavana began to tremble from the severe cold. Unable to find any other source of deliverance, they all approached Govinda to take shelter at His lotus feet. The cows especially, being much aggrieved from the heavy rain, bowed down their heads, and taking their calves underneath their bodies, they approached the Supreme Personality of Godhead to take shelter of His lotus feet. At that time all the inhabitants of Vrndavana began to pray to Lord Krsna. "Dear Krsna," they prayed, "You are all-powerful, and You are very affectionate to Your devotees. Now please protect us who have been much harassed by angry Indra."

full story: Devastating Rainfall In Vrindavan

 

But thanks for putting this story. I think it is believed in the Brijwasi culture to tell and listen to stories of Govinda's pastimes as auspicious and bringing spiritual benefit. I've gotten some benefit from reading it too.

[Tantrayoga]

 

In response to my question about how you know that what you say is right, you wrote:

 

To me, you and the Hare Krishnas seem to have a lot in common, not the least of which is your propensity to articulate religious views without any obvious attempt to authenticate them on the basis of some mutually-accepted standard of evidence.

 

Is the strength of your belief system rooted firmly in the idea that because they do it, then so will you?

 

Raghu, I'm not out here to establish a new lineage of thought based on my own experiences. When Prabhupada annouced that Hinduism (Sanatana dharma) and Gaudiyas have nothing in common and oppose each other, what is there to talk of mutually "accepted" standard of evidence.

Why do people believe their father is their father? Simply because their mother says so? Get an evidence through an accepted DNA test.

My family Guru was a Vaishnava Yogi who lived for 300 years not too far from Chaitanya's time. I had an American atheist question me about the "evidence". What evidence do I give him? dig up the samadhi and give DNA samples? You need evidence of Nirvikalpa Samadhi? You don't believe saints like Sri Yukteswar Giri, Yogananda, Babaji? Practice your own samadhi and that will be the best evidence. I believe simply through inner guidance that I get from my initiations and visions into the field. - Regards.

[theist]

 

Throwing the universally fitting shoe vaguely at the crowd was an interesting thing Theist.

Not a universally fitting shoe. It had a specific size and would only fit certain feet...like yours apparently. Be that as it may there is no need for us to go further with this. You will have to work out your resentments with someone else....I have no connection to iskcon nor am I a Vaisnava however the teachings of the Vaisnava's do make more sense to me than anything else I have encountered so I try to learn something from them.

 

Good day.

[Tantrayoga]

 

Not a universally fitting shoe. It had a specific size and would only fit certain feet...like yours apparently. Be that as it may there is no need for us to go further with this. You will have to work out your resentments with someone else....I have no connection to iskcon nor am I a Vaisnava however the teachings of the Vaisnava's do make more sense to me than anything else I have encountered so I try to learn something from them.

Good day.

 

Well Good luck with that Theist. My regards.

[suchandra]

 

 

There is something wrong in the translation or somewhere here. A cloud with whic Indra annihilates the "whole cosmic manifestation"?? Indra can't do that. That is Lord Shiva's right and job. Shiva can annihilate the whole cosmic manifestation............................But thanks for putting this story. I think it is believed in the Brijwasi culture to tell and listen to stories of Govinda's pastimes as auspicious and bringing spiritual benefit. I've gotten some benefit from reading it too.

Thanks Tantrayoga, since you seem to have the details please show from which sastra you're getting your quotes?

Where is it stated what you saying?

How do you know?

[Tantrayoga]

 

Thanks Tantrayoga, since you seem to have the details please show from which sastra you're getting your quotes?

Where is it stated what you saying?

How do you know?

 

Which shastras?? are you kidding me? This is fundamental knowledge that Shiva annihilates the cosmic manifestation and not Indra!!

[suchandra]

 

are you kidding me?

No, I just ask to which source of knowledge you're refering.

Sri Caitanya, at the beginning of the discourse with Ramananda requested Ramananda to speak about the ultimate goal of life and to support his statements with the sastra.

 

prabhu kahe, "pada sloka sadhyera nirnaya"

 

Sri Caitanya said to Ramananda Raya, "Please recite a verse from the revealed scriptures concerning the ultimate goal of life."

 

Madhya-lila, 8.57

 

This is certainly the generally accepted rule in spiritual circles in India - one must support his statements with reference to the sastra otherwise one will not be accepted as a spiritual authority.

 

sruti smrti puranadi panchratra vidhim vina

aikantiki harer bhaktir utpatayaiva kalpate

 

"Devotional service to the Lord that ignores the authorized Vedic literature like, Upanisads, Puranas, Narada Pancharatra, etc. is simply an unnecessary disturbance in society."

 

Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, 1.2.101 and Brahma-Yamala

[Tantrayoga]

 

No, I just ask to which source of knowledge you're refering.

Sri Caitanya, at the beginning of the discourse with Ramananda requested Ramananda to speak about the ultimate goal of life and to support his statements with the sastra.

 

prabhu kahe, "pada sloka sadhyera nirnaya"

 

Sri Caitanya said to Ramananda Raya, "Please recite a verse from the revealed scriptures concerning the ultimate goal of life."

 

Madhya-lila, 8.57

 

This is certainly the generally accepted rule in spiritual circles in India - one must support his statements with reference to the sastra otherwise one will not be accepted as a spiritual authority.

 

sruti smrti puranadi panchratra vidhim vina

aikantiki harer bhaktir utpatayaiva kalpate

 

"Devotional service to the Lord that ignores the authorized Vedic literature like, Upanisads, Puranas, Narada Pancharatra, etc. is simply an unnecessary disturbance in society."

 

Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, 1.2.101 and Brahma-Yamala

 

What is the need to look in for "quotes" for everything?? Shiva aniihilates the cosmic manifestation. Are you trying to say that He doesn't and Indra does? Does Indra annihilate cosmic manifestation at Brahma's Ratri with that cloud if that cloud particular is used for this by Indra? What does Shiva do then? Why do you consider him "in the mode of ignorance?" Shiva is Satyam, Shivam, Sundram, Sat-Chit-Ananda. Not tamasa as is popularly explained in a complex way dear bhakta.

Chaitanya was a Pure devotee of Krishna. So much that he was hailed as Krishna himself by his followers. He was more concerned with pure devotion than quotes unquotes. And what are you quoting? Bhakti-rasamrta sindhu is not a Vedic scripture / shastra! Nor is Chaitanya Charitamrita. Have you read Raskhan?? What could the Gopis quote?

[suchandra]

 

What is the need to look in for "quotes" for everything?? Shiva aniihilates the cosmic manifestation. Are you trying to say that He doesn't and Indra does? Does Indra annihilate cosmic manifestation at Brahma's Ratri with that cloud if that cloud particular is used for this by Indra? What does Shiva do then? Why do you consider him "in the mode of ignorance?" Shiva is Satyam, Shivam, Sundram, Sat-Chit-Ananda. Not tamasa as is popularly explained in a complex way dear bhakta.

Chaitanya was a Pure devotee of Krishna. So much that he was hailed as Krishna himself by his followers. He was more concerned with pure devotion than quotes unquotes. And what are you quoting? Bhakti-rasamrta sindhu is not a Vedic scripture / shastra! Nor is Chaitanya Charitamrita. Have you read Raskhan?? What could the Gopis quote?

Everybody in India except you seems to know Samvartaka (the samvartaka clouds sent by Indra showered rains for 40 days, bringing devastation) and publishes at their websites (see below) like for example, http://vishwashanthisevashram.org/bhagavatha%20-%202.html

 

"Indra got to know of what happened and, with his usual jealous propensities, determined to have his revenge. He summoned the most virulent clouds called Samvartaka, which are usually kept in reserve for doomsday, the eve of the universal dissolution, and lectured to them about the arrogance of Krishna, a quarrelsome, foolish and ignorant boy, and its support, the cattle. He adjured them to do their worst by Vraja, promising to be by their side, riding on his elephant Airavata in the company of the wind god."

 

http://vishwashanthisevashram.org/