My problems with the philosophy of Srila Prabhupada

[LoveroftheBhagavata]

I think the title of this thread is misleading right from the start, since Gaudiya Vaishnavism is not the philosophy of Prabhupada. Bhaktivedanta Swami has carved a place for himself in eternal history by taking the gift of Mahaprabhu outside of India and thereby blessing the people of this world with Hari-nama. However, the garden in which the sublime path of devotion to Lord Krishna in the mood of Vraja was planted is the Srimad Bhagavatam, which is the most important Gaudiya scripture. According to the Bhagavata itself, as well as the Garuda Purana and other texts which I can quote when I have a little more time, Srimad Bhagavatam is the ripened fruit of the desire tree of Vedic literature. The traditional view is that the recitation of this wonderful shastra occurred some five millenia into the past, first by Sri Sukadeva to Maharaja Parikshit at Suka-tala on the banks of the Ganga and then later by Suta Gosvami to the assembly of sages at Naimisharanya. Some even say that the Bhagavata relates Krishna-lila and other events as they happened in a prior kalpa, which would place these several billions of years back. It is thus hardly a novel philosophy, the one that Swami Prabhupada brought to the West and preached. Sure, those who do not have faith in the Bhagavatam can argue about the truth or falsehood of the Vaishnava concept of reality till the end of time, but that will bring about little in terms of concrete achievements to them. They certainly won't break my faith in the timeless message of Mahaprabhu, whom we know to be Krishna Himself in the garb of a bhakta.

 

Srila Sakhicharan das Babaji Ki Jaya!

[Tantrayoga]

 

Everybody in India except you seems to know Samvartaka and publishes at their websites (see below) like for example, http://vishwashanthisevashram.org/bhagavatha%20-%202.html

http://vishwashanthisevashram.org/

 

Vishwashanthisevashram represent "everybody" in India?? I didn't know that.

I don't have a problem with the verse or Samvartaka. But who annihilates is the question.

[suchandra]

 

I think the title of this thread is misleading right from the start, since Gaudiya Vaishnavism is not the philosophy of Prabhupada. Bhaktivedanta Swami has carved a place for himself in eternal history by taking the gift of Mahaprabhu outside of India and thereby blessing the people of this world with Hari-nama. However, the garden in which the sublime path of devotion to Lord Krishna in the mood of Vraja was planted is the Srimad Bhagavatam, which is the most important Gaudiya scripture. According to the Bhagavata itself, as well as the Garuda Purana and other texts which I can quote when I have a little more time, Srimad Bhagavatam is the ripened fruit of the desire tree of Vedic literature. The traditional view is that the recitation of this wonderful shastra occurred some five millenia into the past, first by Sri Sukadeva to Maharaja Parikshit at Suka-tala on the banks of the Ganga and then later by Suta Gosvami to the assembly of sages at Naimisharanya. Some even say that the Bhagavata relates Krishna-lila and other events as they happened in a prior kalpa, which would place these several billions of years back. It is thus hardly a novel philosophy, the one that Swami Prabhupada brought to the West and preached. Sure, those who do not have faith in the Bhagavatam can argue about the truth or falsehood of the Vaishnava concept of reality till the end of time, but that will bring about little in terms of concrete achievements to them. They certainly won't break my faith in the timeless message of Mahaprabhu, whom we know to be Krishna Himself in the garb of a bhakta.

 

Srila Sakhicharan das Babaji Ki Jaya!

Thanks LoveroftheBhagavata yes, in the Srimad-Bhagavatam this is all mentioned, Lord Krishna asking the Brijbasis to stop offering to Lord Indra, see, http://vishwashanthisevashram.org/bhagavatha%20-%202.html

 

Lord Siva blessing Arjuna

[LoveroftheBhagavata]

 

What does Shiva do then? Why do you consider him "in the mode of ignorance?" Shiva is Satyam, Shivam, Sundram, Sat-Chit-Ananda. Not tamasa as is popularly explained in a complex way dear bhakta.

 

 

Pranam Tantrayoga,

 

I am an (uninitiated) follower of traditional Gaudiya Vaishnava Vedanta. The Gaudiya understanding is that Lord Shiva DOES annihilate the material cosmos at the time of pralaya, not Indra, and yes, Mahadeva is a manifestation of God, though we consider Krishna to be Bhagavan in His most complete, charming and perfect svarupa. Shiva is also not tainted by tamo-guna, though one of His functions is that He is in charge of the mode of ignorance, whilst being untouched by it. Of course, my school of thought differs theologically and philosophically from yours, and quite radically, but you seem to have a rather warped view of Chaitanya Vaishnavism, if I may say so. Of course, you cannot be blamed for this, since most Gaudiyas with whom you have conferred seem to be of the intransigeant, fanatical type. A true average follower of Sriman Mahaprabhu doesn't fight with others over doctrinal issues, but rather is too busy exploring the vastness of his own sampradaya to have any time for such things.

[Tantrayoga]

 

I think the title of this thread is misleading right from the start, since Gaudiya Vaishnavism is not the philosophy of Prabhupada. Bhaktivedanta Swami has carved a place for himself in eternal history by taking the gift of Mahaprabhu outside of India and thereby blessing the people of this world with Hari-nama. However, the garden in which the sublime path of devotion to Lord Krishna in the mood of Vraja was planted is the Srimad Bhagavatam, which is the most important Gaudiya scripture. According to the Bhagavata itself, as well as the Garuda Purana and other texts which I can quote when I have a little more time, Srimad Bhagavatam is the ripened fruit of the desire tree of Vedic literature. The traditional view is that the recitation of this wonderful shastra occurred some five millenia into the past, first by Sri Sukadeva to Maharaja Parikshit at Suka-tala on the banks of the Ganga and then later by Suta Gosvami to the assembly of sages at Naimisharanya. Some even say that the Bhagavata relates Krishna-lila and other events as they happened in a prior kalpa, which would place these several billions of years back. It is thus hardly a novel philosophy, the one that Swami Prabhupada brought to the West and preached. Sure, those who do not have faith in the Bhagavatam can argue about the truth or falsehood of the Vaishnava concept of reality till the end of time, but that will bring about little in terms of concrete achievements to them. They certainly won't break my faith in the timeless message of Mahaprabhu, whom we know to be Krishna Himself in the garb of a bhakta.

 

Srila Sakhicharan das Babaji Ki Jaya!

 

As Raghu stated in an earlier post, to everyone their own. Following message of devotion to Krishna of Shri Chaitanya is blissful. But whenever an avatara came, he declared it. Krsna did. Why did Vishwambhar Mishra needed a "Garb" of Chaitanya if he was Krsna? Chaitanya never declared he was Krsna ever. His followers later thought up a term and explanation called "Chhanna avatara" or hidden avatara. This can be debated. But I see no point really. This also goes in contradiction of Gaudiya philosophy of declaring the truth blatantly. Prabhupadha was blunt as hell in what he believed. And he belonged to Gaudiya school of thought. He was Gaudiya. So were the Goswamis. Although he did take Hari nam to the west. But this doesn't change his sampradayic background and lineage philosophy. Regards.

[LoveroftheBhagavata]

 

But whenever an avatara came, he declared it.

 

To my knowledge, Bhagavan Sri Rama hardly allowed Himself to be worshipped during the 11,000 years he was present on earth during Treta-yuga of the 24th divya-yuga. Check out both the Valmiki Ramayana and Ramacharitamanasa if you feel inclined to do so.

 

Regards

[Tantrayoga]

 

Pranam Tantrayoga,

 

I am an (uninitiated) follower of traditional Gaudiya Vaishnava Vedanta. The Gaudiya understanding is that Lord Shiva DOES annihilate the material cosmos at the time of pralaya, not Indra, and yes, Mahadeva is a manifestation of God, though we consider Krishna to be Bhagavan in His most complete, charming and perfect svarupa. Shiva is also not tainted by tamo-guna, though one of His functions is that He is in charge of the mode of ignorance, whilst being untouched by it. Of course, my school of thought differs theologically and philosophically from yours, and quite radically, but you seem to have a rather warped view of Chaitanya Vaishnavism, if I may say so. Of course, you cannot be blamed for this, since most Gaudiyas with whom you have conferred seem to be of the intransigeant, fanatical type. A true average follower of Sriman Mahaprabhu doesn't fight with others over doctrinal issues, but rather is too busy exploring the vastness of his own sampradaya to have any time for such things.

 

Pranam Bhagwat lover!

 

I'm glad to know your perspective! Ironically I do find differences in bhava and tatva of what Shri Chaitanya said and what I hear from the preaching lot. I offer my obeisance to the Vaishnavs (Gaudiya and others) who are busy in exploring the vastness of Lord's mercy in any form or sampradaya. Indeed Krsna says he manifests himself before the devotee in the form that he wants him to.

[Tantrayoga]

 

To my knowledge, Bhagavan Sri Rama hardly allowed Himself to be worshipped during the 11,000 years he was present on earth during Treta-yuga of the 24th divya-yuga. Check out both the Valmiki Ramayana and Ramacharitamanasa if you feel inclined to do so.

Regards

 

The beauty of Hinduism is that all the avataras were recognized and worshipped during their lifetime. Please read about Lord Rama's return to Ayodhya and his worship. Please also read about Bharat keeping Lord Rama's charan Paduka on the Raj Simhasana and worshipping it, running the Kingdom in Ram's name. Krishna was worshipped too. But as it happens Not all can recognize the Lord during his avataran period. Arjuna couldn't until he was convinced after darshan of Lord's virat roop.

[LoveroftheBhagavata]

 

Indeed Krsna says he manifests himself before the devotee in the form that he wants him to.

 

Indeed, and please accept my appreciations for this statement of yours. It relates a simple, axiomatic truth which, if people properly comprehended, would eliminate much of the sectarianism one finds in contemporary religions.

[suchandra]

 

Pranam Bhagwat lover!

 

I'm glad to know your perspective! Ironically I do find differences in bhava and tatva of what Shri Chaitanya said and what I hear from the preaching lot. I offer my obeisance to the Vaishnavs (Gaudiya and others) who are busy in exploring the vastness of Lord's mercy in any form or sampradaya. Indeed Krsna says he manifests himself before the devotee in the form that he wants him to.

 

 

sukla rakta pita-varna ei tina dyuti

satya-treta-kali-kale dharena sri-pati

 

The Bhagavatam explains in the conversation between Karabhajan Muni and King Nimi, that in the Dvapara-Yuga, the Supreme Lord, the Personality of Godhead appears in a blackish form [dvapare bhagavan syamah]. He has a yellow dress and carries His own weapons [pita-vasa-nija-ayudhah]. He is beautified with the mark of Srivatsa and the Kaustubha jewel [sri vatsa-adibhih ankais ca laksanaih]. This is the actual description of His characteristics [upalaksitah]. The great sage continues his instruction to King Nimi by saying that people in general in the age of Dvapar-Yuga worshiped the Lord of the Universe [iti dvapara urvisam stuvanti jagad isvaram]. In the age of Kali, they worshipped the Supreme Person by the regulation of the scriptures [tantra vidhana].

 

krishna varnam tvisakrmam sangopangastra parsadam

yajnaih sankirtana prayair yajanti hi sumedhasah

 

(Srimad-Bhagavatam 11.5.32)

"In the age of Kali, intelligent persons perform congregational chanting to worship the incarnation of Godhead who constantly sings the holy name of Krishna. Although His complexion is not blackish, He is Krishna Himself. He is accompanied by His associates, servants, weapons and confidential companions."

In the Sama Veda, the Supreme Lord says:

 

tathaham krta sannyaso bhu-girvano 'vatarisye

tire'lakanandayah punah punah isvara-prarthitah sa-

parivaro niralambo nirdhuteh kali-kalmasa-kavalita-

janavalambanaya

 

I shall come to the earth, accompanied by My associates, in a place by the bank of the Ganges. I will advent to save the people who are afflicted and devoured by the sins of the age of Kali. I will manifest as an Avadhut Brahman Sannyasi.

In the Atharva-Veda; Purusa-Bodini-Upanisad, it is said:

 

saptame gaura-varna-visnor ity aena sva-saktya

caikyam etya pratar avatirya saha svaih sva-manum siksayati

 

"In the seventh manvantara, in the beginning of the Kali-Yuga, the Supreme Personality of Godhead will, accompanied by His own associates, descend in a golden form to the earth. He will teach the chanting of His own names."

In the Atharva Veda, the Supreme Person says:

 

itotham krta sannyaso'vatarisyami sa-guno nirvedo

niskamo bhu-girvanas tira-atho' lakanandayah kalau

catuh-sahasrabdhopari panca-sahasrabhyantare

gaura-varno dirghangah sarva-laksana-yukta isvara

prarthito nija-rasasvado bhakta-rupo misrakhyo

vidita-yogah syam

 

I will descend on the earth after the passage of four thousand years in the Kali-Age, [kalau chatuh sahasrabdhopari] and before the passage of five thousand years [pancha sahasra abhyantare].

I will come on the earth on the bank of the Ganges, [tira-sthah alakanandayah]. I will be a tall and saintly Brahmana devotee. I will have all the auspicious symptoms of an exalted person [dirghangah sarva-laksana-yuktah].

I will exhibit renunciation. I will have all auspicious signs. I will be a devotee, practicing bhakti yoga. I will taste the rasa of My own devotional service.

In the Sama Veda, the Supreme Lord says:

 

 

tathaham krta sannyaso bhu-girvano 'vatarisye

tire'lakanandayah punah punah isvara-prarthitah sa-

parivaro niralambo nirdhuteh kali-kalmasa-kavalita-

janavalambanaya

 

I shall come to the earth, accompanied by My associates, in a place by the bank of the Ganges. I will advent to save the people who are afflicted and devoured by the sins of the age of Kali. I will manifest as an Avadhut Brahman Sannyasi.

In the seventh canto of the Srimad-Bhagavatam, Prahlad Maharaj directly hints at the hidden nature of the Supreme Lord's appearance. Because the Supreme Lord is also called Tri-Yuga, or one who appears in only three yugas (satya, dvapara, treta), He is sometimes said to appear in a concealed form, in the age of Kali.

 

channah kalau yad abhavas tri-yugo'tha sa tvam

 

 

(Srimad Bhagavatam 7.9.38)

In the Tenth Canto of the Srimad Bhagavatam, chapter eight, Gargamuni the family priest of Nanda Maharaja, explains that the young boy Sri Krishna has three colors - white, red and yellow - when He appears in His transcendental form in different ages. In the current incarnation of Krishna, He has appeared ...as black.

asan varnas trayo hy asya grhnatotnvyugam tanuh

suklo raktas tatha pita idanim krmatam gatah

 

(Srimad-Bhagavatam 10.8.13)

 

 

[Tantrayoga]

 

...

 

There are lots of stories in the Bhagwatam. Its a good scripture for those wanting to advance in Vaishnava Bhakti lineage and know about the pastimes by reading about them. Yes Hari nam is a way for Kaliyuga and Vishwambhar Mishra propagated it well as Chaitanya. I'm all respects for that. But nevertheless, Chaitanya doesn't declare his being Krsna as did Krsna. All these scriptural quotations and their interpretations point to Chaitanya only as Krsna avatara is again debatable. I won't be surprised if Prabhupada is made as an incarnation of kind in the next 20 years or so. I don't mean any offenses though. But in this age of quarrel and hypocrisy ... The Gaudiyas hve problem with Iskcon, Iskcon with Gaudiyas, with Ritviks and others... and all claim to be following Shri Chaitanya. All are ready to fight in the name of Chaitanya, Prabhupada, Govind Maharaj or Narayan 'Maharaj'... The bottom line is follow Chaitanya... follow bhakti yoga, devotion to Krsna, but why bash others? Chaitanya said to be servant of the servant of the servant.... . That was real humble. Now we have people fighting in the name of Chaitanya. Regards. Jai Shri Krishna.

[LoveroftheBhagavata]

 

The bottom line is follow Chaitanya... follow bhakti yoga, devotion to Krsna, but why bash others? Chaitanya said to be servant of the servant of the servant.... . That was real humble. Now we have people fighting in the name of Chaitanya. Regards. Jai Shri Krishna.

 

 

Absolutely, Tantrayoga.

 

trnad api sunicena taror iva sahisnuna

amanina manadena kirtaniyah sada harih

 

This is what Lord Caitanya instructed His parampara heirs. Fortunately, many modern Gaudiyas have left behind this deplorable attitude of partisanship and embraced a more universalist approach. For a sample of same, you can glance at the blogs of Madhavananda Das and Advaita Das if that says anything to you.

 

Haribol

[suchandra]

 

All these scriptural quotations and their interpretations point to Chaitanya only - as Krsna avatara is again debatable.

Looks like other forum members all agree with what you're saying.

 

[guliaditya]

Respected Suchandra Prabhu,

 

Pls accept my humble obesiance unto your feet.

 

I think u are associated to Iskcon.There are certain issues regarding Iskcon which I hope u will be able to solve.Can I get your consent before I put forward my questions.Also I would request you not to take me on negative side.These are simply my doubts which I want to get clear from you.I will put forward my queries tmrw.

 

Yours

Adityas

[LoveroftheBhagavata]

Haribol Baobabtree,

 

I don't have enough posts to send you a PM, so I shall reply to you here.

 

I was in fact born in an all-Devatas/Devis worshipping Hindu family, outside of India, and I still love, honour and respect all Vedic deities, though the service of the lotus feet of Sri Sri Radha-Krishna is the parama-pada, as per the tradition that has captured my heart most, i.e. raganuga-bhakti. Yes, the "fellow" in my avatar is 108 Shri Sakhicharan Dasa Babaji Maharaja, a siddha-mahatma of the Narottama Parivara, and Guru of the revered 108 Shri Krishna Dasa Babaji Maharaja (Madrasi baba). You can learn a great deal about the divine lives of these exalted bhaktas if you follow the external link given on the Krishna Dasa Babaji website thread on the recommended websites section of these forums.

 

Just in passing, I believe that classical lineages follow the spirit of Mahaprabhu and Srila Rupa Gosvamipada more closely than the Gaudiya Matha, which is why I call myself an aspirant on that specific path, but that doesn't stop me from having tremendous appreciation for the Sarasvata Vaishnavas for their immense contributions to contemporary Gaudiya Vaishnavism, even though I disagree with them on certain points. As for ISKCON, a lot can be said about that organisation both in favourable and unfavourable terms. As for me, I prefer to concentrate on the more positive aspects of their preaching and efforts in spreading Vedic culture around the globe. In the part of the world where I am, if it weren't for them, I would have practically no opportunities for sadhu-sanga, although one needs to exercise discernment and caution regarding whom to associate with, even within the Vaishnava samaja.

 

There are elements in the writings and teachings of Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada that are preaching tactics more than anything else. In other places, some minor mistakes are undoubtedly present. However, on the whole, his principal writings, and here I'm referring mainly to his Bhagavad-gita, Srimad Bhagavatam and Caitanya-caritamrta translations and commentaries (as well as the Krishna book), are nothing short of glorious. At least some traditional Gaudiyas hold that the BBT multi-volume Srimad Bhagavatam is still, to date, the best available version on the market for devotees, with the Gita Press edition, which is just a translation with no purports, coming in second position. That doesn't mean that they would chime with Bhaktivedanta Swami in every single jot and tittle, but I think that you can see the point I'm trying to make.

 

Regarding Sri Krishna as Svayam-Bhagavan, we don't expect everyone to accept the authority of the Brahma-samhita and Gosvami granthas. That would be extremely foolish an expectation in any event. We do, however, take SB 1.3.28 to be the paribhasa-sutra of the entire Bhagavata, which is itself the very foundation of our philosophy.

 

It is significant that although up to this particular shloka, other avataras have been mentioned along with a description of Their characteristics, Krsna's characteristics have not. Yet if anyone insists that His characteristics have been described earlier, they can only be referring to the word bhagavan (rama-krsnav iti bhuvo bhagavan aharad bharam [sB 1.3.23]), which is not used when describing any of the other incarnations. In the paribhasa-sutra (SB 1.3.28), the characteristic of Krsna as svayam bhagavan is described, reiterating with emphasis what has been cited earlier (SB 1.3.23), however awkward some may perceive it to be. Furthermore, the fact that this description has been left until the end of the description of the incarnations serves to emphasize the conclusion that Krsna alone is svayam bhagavan, and for this reason it has been placed there. As per the rules of literary composition, facts meant to be emphasized should be placed at the end of the composition. Also bear in mind that this core verse comes after those depicting the three purusha-avataras, Maha-Vishnu, Garbhodakashayi-Vishnu and Kshirodakashayi-Vishnu.

 

In the end, it serves no real purpose to argue about these things. Shastra serves as a guide first and foremost, and the number of souls in material existence is limitless. Not everyone is meant to take up the path of raganuga-bhakti, and end up in Goloka. Lord Hari Himself has countless eternal spiritual abodes within the Paravyoma, where He accepts the service of His devotees in an infinite variety of different ways, whether as Vraja Krishna in Vrindavana, Vasudeva Krishna in Mathura or Dvarakesha Krishna in Dvaravati. Lord Ramachandra also has His dhama in the spiritual world where He is surrounded by His associates, and the same applies to the innumerable four-armed Narayana vilasa-murtis, each of whom has His transcendental Vaikuntha-loka. Some souls are destined for Sadashivaloka, the eternal realm of Devadideva Mahadeva, others will ultimately dissolve their selves and merge into Brahman, and still others will forever roam about the material cosmic phenomenon, in the multiplicity of dimensions and domains of life that exist in the kotis upon kotis of brahmandas emanating from the pores of Maha-Vishnu. Gaudiya Vaishnava Vedanta actually allows for a very pluralistic conception of religion. The wisest course of action is, however, not to squander valuable time in argumentation but rather to purify ourselves and become eligible for entrance into the Lord's lila through committed and sincere adherence to the sadhana that every one of us may have shraddha in.

[guliaditya]

Dear Loverofthebhagavata,

 

I truly accept whatever u have written.The ultimate aim is to continoulsy chant harinaam with full devotion.Nothing can be achieved by debating.

 

haribol

[new---new]

Despite everything ...vaishnavas in general are good for the society ...as they bring devotion to the undevoted...... we dont have to necessarily agree to all that they believe in ..and it cant be denied that their organizational efforts contribute a great deal to the society .....i would ..rather live in a world full of vaishnavas who follow a sattvik way of life than the ordinary world we live in .....and the reason i guess some of the novice vaishnavas are so arrogant is because i think they are too idealistic...and lack in discrimination and dont quite understand their own gurus .......i mean many have pointed out that the superiority of krishna is because of the rasa in which the devotee wishes to associate with god......so logically wouldnt Ramchandra be superior to krishna for hanuman who wishes to associate with god as a king in the capacity of dasa.........but then logic is not always necessary and faith alone will do ......rest all will follow simply by following the path...........the arrogance that gurus sometimes display wether it is prabhupada or other non vaishanva gurus should not be taken too seriously as i have often found gurus to be two faced ..and they speak to different people according to their spiritual evolution...and maturity ....... and i can testify that i have met even in iskcon....a guru who demonstrated practically ...his yogic..or spiritual abilities................i never converted .....and he never insisted that krishna was supreme...........we didnt discuss philosophy at all ...but he removed my doubts about the path and the movement........

 

PS there is a distinction between devas (demigod) (indra,agni,ganesh,vishnu ,etc..)..and avatars krishna ,Ramchandra, etc.......the devatas exist as persons and are also representations of tattvas.(elements)..vishnu = space ,shiva=mahakal=time, .......agni = fire ...vayu..wind .... and as such the devas represent only a particular element ............At the level of atma (bhraman).....the devas are same ..at the level of tattvas they are different....... therefore the avatars are said to be superior to devas(demigods)...becaus the avataras are considered to be full representations of bhraman (parabhraman)........ and it is not surprising that vaishanvas consider an avatar(krishna,ram) to be superior even to vishnu ..........

[LoveroftheBhagavata]

 

Despite everything ...vaishnavas in general are good for the society ...as they bring devotion to the undevoted...... we dont have to necessarily agree to all that they believe in ..and it cant be denied that their organizational efforts contribute a great deal to the society .....i would ..rather live in a world full of vaishnavas who follow a sattvik way of life than the ordinary world we live in .....and the reason i guess some of the novice vaishnavas are so arrogant is because i think they are too idealistic...and lack in discrimination and dont quite understand their own gurus .......i mean many have pointed out that the superiority of krishna is because of the rasa in which the devotee wishes to associate with god......so logically wouldnt Ramchandra be superior to krishna for hanuman who wishes to associate with god as a king in the capacity of dasa.........but then logic is not always necessary and faith alone will do ......rest all will follow simply by following the path...........the arrogance that gurus sometimes display wether it is prabhupada or other non vaishanva gurus should not be taken too seriously as i have often found gurus to be two faced ..and they speak to different people according to their spiritual evolution...and maturity ....... and i can testify that i have met even in iskcon....a guru who demonstrated practically ...his yogic..or spiritual abilities................i never converted .....and he never insisted that krishna was supreme...........we didnt discuss philosophy at all ...but he removed my doubts about the path and the movement........

 

Haribol,

 

I basically endorse your post (well, the first paragraph almost fully, but the second for sure doesn't meet my approval in toto). Regarding Lord Rama and Sri Hanumanji, us Gaudiyas accept Murari Gupta to be the manifest Maruti of Gaura-lila. Maybe you will like the piece that follows:

 

 

Hanuman in Caitanya Lila

WHEN LORD KRISHNA DESCENDED five hundred years ago as Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, devotees of Krishna and His incarnations descended with Him to be part of Lord Caitanya's lila, or pastimes. One of those eternal associates of the Lord was Hanuman, who appeared with Lord Caitanya as a physician named Murari Gupta.

In the incarnation as Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Lord Krishna taught the world how to serve Krishna, the original form of the Personality of Godhead. Yet Lord Krishna also has many other Visnu forms, each with His own eternal devotees. And in the Caitanya-caritamrta (Madhya-lila 15.142–156) Lord Caitanya tests Murari Gupta and glorifies him for his exclusive devotion to Lord Ramacandra:

“I requested Murari Gupta, ‘Worship Krishna and take shelter of Him. But for His service, nothing appeals to the mind.'

“Murari Gupta heard from Me again and again. And by My influence, his mind was a little converted.

“He then replied, ‘I am Your servant and Your order carrier. I have no independent existence.'

“After this, Murari Gupta went home and spent the whole night thinking how he would be able to give up the association of Raghunatha, Lord Ramacandra. Thus he was overwhelmed. Murari Gupta then began to pray at the lotus feet of Lord Ramacandra. He prayed that death would come that night, because it was not possible for him to give up the service of the lotus feet of Raghunatha. Thus Murari Gupta cried the entire night. There was no rest for his mind; therefore he could not sleep but stayed awake the entire night.

“In the morning Murari Gupta came to see Me. Catching hold of My feet and crying, he submitted an appeal.

“Murari Gupta said, ‘I have sold my head to the lotus feet of Raghunatha. I cannot withdraw my head, for that would give me too much pain. It is not possible for me to give up the service of Raghunatha's lotus feet. At the same time, if I do not do so I shall break Your order. What can I do?'

“In this way Murari Gupta appealed to Me, saying, ‘Kindly grant me this mercy, because You are all-merciful. Let me die before You so that all my doubts will be finished.'

“Hearing this, I became very happy. I then raised Murari Gupta and embraced him.

“I said to him, ‘Murari Gupta! Your method of worship is very firmly fixed -- so much so that even upon My request your mind did not turn. The servitor must have love and affection for the lotus feet of the Lord exactly like this. Even if the Lord wants separation, a devotee cannot abandon the shelter of His lotus feet. Just to test your firm faith in your Lord, I requested you again and again to change your worship from Lord Ramacandra to Krishna.'

“In this way, I congratulated Murari Gupta, saying, ‘Indeed, you are the incarnation of Hanuman. Consequently you are the eternal servant of Lord Ramacandra. Why should you give up the worship of Lord Ramacandra and His lotus feet?' “

 

Radhe Radhe

[guliaditya]

Respected Suchandra/Loverofthebhagavata

 

I have got certain querys reagrding Iskcon which I hope u will be able to slove.......

1) In "Bhagvad Gita As It Is" srila prabhupada has mentioned the guru paramapara in which the gita is received. It starts with Krishna then Brahma, Narad, Vedvyas & so on......ending with Prabhupada himself. But when we read 4th chapter Krishna is telling that He fist told to surya, from surya to manu,manu to ikshavaku & then to rajrishis...but got destroyed with the passage of time. Again the same yog vidya was told but this time to Arjun.My question is whether the guru parampara mentioned is authentic & if yes then where is the name of Arjun????

2) Whether in Bhagvad gita anywhere the word “Sampradaya” is mentioned??? Pls give the relevant slokas, not the purport of Srila prabhupada.

3) To develop Krishna consciousness whether attachment to sampradays is necessary or pure bhakti is necessary????

4) To which Samparaday Bhaktaraj Prahalad, gopikas, Ambrish,Vibhishan etc…… were belonging to??Pls give the relevant sloka from Bhagvatam or any other purana/Ithihaas.

5) I have heard many a times that there is a classification of puranas???Pls give the classification of puranas with the relevant sloka???

5) Sri Bhagvatam Third canto…..Srila prabhupdas has copied from gita press edition. Sril prabhupada use to comment on gita press as full of mayavad philosophy then why he copied mayavadi phiolosophy?????

I will highly appreciate if u take out your valuable time & reply to my queries.

 

Yours

Aditya

[suchandra]

 

Respected Suchandra Prabhu,

 

Pls accept my humble obesiance unto your feet.

 

I think u are associated to Iskcon.There are certain issues regarding Iskcon which I hope u will be able to solve.Can I get your consent before I put forward my questions.Also I would request you not to take me on negative side.These are simply my doubts which I want to get clear from you.I will put forward my queries tmrw.

 

Yours

Adityas

 

You're welcome Adityas! No, I don't take you on negative side - this forum welcomes all Vaishnavas, actually anyone. All are welcome to post and discuss spiritual knowledge.

[LoveroftheBhagavata]

Jaya Radhe Aditya,

 

For fault of time, I can only respond to you on a piecemeal basis. In the Gita, Krishna is teaching Arjuna the same transcendental knowledge which He spoke to Suryadeva millions of years in the past, and Surya in turn instructed His son Vaivasvata Manu who for his part let on King Ikshvaku on the same material. There is no disciplic succession, however, that comes through Arjuna. The purpose of the speaking of the Gita served an altogether different purpose.

 

The parampara that you find in the Bhagavad-gita As It Is is the one presented to Prabhupada by his guru, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati. It is a shiksha-parampara, whereby shiksha is stressed over diksha. In more orthodox branches of the tradition, parampara is defined by reception of diksha, although shiksha also clearly plays a very important part there also. Traditionalists and Sarasvatas have been debating over this diksha-shiksha issue for a century now. However, at least two traditional acharyas (that I know of), Radha-Govinda dasa Babaji and Hridayananda das Babaji, both of Nityananda Parivara, have acknowledged that Prabhupada was indeed energised by Lord Nitai for preaching on a global scale, irrespective of the disagreements over the guru parampara thing.

 

As for question number 4, the Padma Purana says that in KALI-YUGA, four authentic Vaishnava sampradayas exist. This goes as follows:

 

 

 

samprAdya-vihInA ye mantrAs te niSphalA matAH

atah kalau bhaviSyanti catvAraH sampradAyinaH

SrI-brahma-rudra-sanakA vaiSNavAH kSiti-pAvanAH

catvAras te kalau bhAvyA hy utkale puruSottamAt

rAmAnujaM SrI svIcakre madhvAcAryaM caturmukhaH

SrI viSNusvAmInaM rudro nimbAdityam catuHsanAH

 

 

Unless one is initiated by a bona-fide spiritual master in the disciplic succession, the mantra he might have received is without any effect. For this reason four Vaisnava disciplic successions, inaugurated by Laksmi-devi, Lord Brahma, Lord Siva, and the four Kumaras, will appear in the holy place of Jagannatha Puri, and purify the entire earth during the age of Kali. Laksmi-devi chose Ramanujacarya to represent her disciplic succession. In the same way Lord Brahma chose Madhvacarya, Lord Siva chose Visnu Svami, and the four Kumaras chose Nimbarka. (quoted in Prameya-ratnavali by Baladeva Vidyabhusana, 1.5-6)

 

However, this verse is not to be found in all extant recensions of the Padma Purana, which is a vast text of some 55,000 shlokas, and thus some people are led to disregard it. But it is said to still be there in one or two of the available editions. The personalities you listed all lived in prior yugas, and thus this does not apply to them. I shall get to your other questions when I'm a bit freer, but for now, this will have to suffice.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

1) In "Bhagvad Gita As It Is" srila prabhupada has mentioned the guru paramapara in which the gita is received. It starts with Krishna then Brahma, Narad, Vedvyas & so on......ending with Prabhupada himself. But when we read 4th chapter Krishna is telling that He fist told to surya, from surya to manu,manu to ikshavaku & then to rajrishis...but got destroyed with the passage of time. Again the same yog vidya was told but this time to Arjun.My question is whether the guru parampara mentioned is authentic & if yes then where is the name of Arjun????

 

The word parampara literally means "one after another" and signifies a chain of gurus and disciples who preserve spiritual knowledge. Krishna spoke the Gita to Arjuna, but it was heard by Sanjaya, the secretary of Dhritarashtra. Thus the entire Gita that we are reading is actually spoken by Sanjaya. Sanjaya is a disciple of Vyasa, and he acknowledges this in the last verses of the Gita, where he says "by the mercy of vyasa I was able to see this divine discourse betweeen Krishna and Arjuna. Vyasa also was the one who compiled the Mahabharata, which includes the Gita. So the Gita we receive actually comes from Vyasa, and then Sanjaya, and then Krishna.

 

Vyasa Muni is one of first acharya's in the parampara listed in Prabhupada's Bhagavad Gita. Krishna, Brahma, Narada, Vyasa... And from Vyasa the parampara continues with Madhvacharya.

 

There is another parampara that goes through Shuka Deva Goswami, the son of Vyasa. There are really countless lines of spiritual knowledge coming down. But in Kali Yuga, most of these lines are no longer present on earth, except for the four main sampradayas.

 

The parampara from Krishna is like a giant tree with many branches and sub branches. You will know whether a branch is connected to the trunk because the fruit will be the same.

 

 

2) Whether in Bhagvad gita anywhere the word “Sampradaya” is mentioned??? Pls give the relevant slokas, not the purport of Srila prabhupada.

 

A previous poster has cited the verse from Padma Purana. Krishna does not use the word sampradaya, but uses other words such as parampara.

 

 

3) To develop Krishna consciousness whether attachment to sampradays is necessary or pure bhakti is necessary????

 

I think this is a question which you already know the answer. The aim of the living entitiy is to develop pure love for Krishna (prema-bhakti). In that state one will always be conscious of Krishna (Krishna conscious). What ever helps one to come closer to that state of Krishna consciousness should be accepted and whatever takes one away from that state of Krishna consciousness should be rejected. The sampradaya is supposed to help you develop your Krishna consciousness by giving you pure and unadulterated spiritual knowledge and practice.

 

 

4) To which Samparaday Bhaktaraj Prahalad, gopikas, Ambrish,Vibhishan etc…… were belonging to??Pls give the relevant sloka from Bhagvatam or any other purana/Ithihaas.

 

The sampradayas become solidly defined in Kali Yuga. Before that they kind of intercross throughout the universe. People like Dhruva and Prahlada were initiated by Narada. Narada is one of the gurus of the Brahma Sampradaya, but at the time it was not likely defined as it is now. Narada is almost everywhere, initiating almost everyone, over billions of years.

 

 

5) I have heard many a times that there is a classification of puranas???Pls give the classification of puranas with the relevant sloka???

 

 

There are various classifications for the puranas. You can see several of them at wikipedia:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puranas

 

 

 

5) Sri Bhagvatam Third canto…..Srila prabhupdas has copied from gita press edition. Sril prabhupada use to comment on gita press as full of mayavad philosophy then why he copied mayavadi phiolosophy?????

 

Could you quote the particular passages you feel are copied?

[new---new]

 

Haribol,

 

I basically endorse your post (well, the first paragraph almost fully, but the second for sure doesn't meet my approval in toto). Regarding Lord Rama and Sri Hanumanji, us Gaudiyas accept Murari Gupta to be the manifest Maruti of Gaura-lila. Maybe you will like the piece that follows:

 

 

 

Radhe Radhe

 

haribol,

I can understand why.......any talk of brahman is like poison for vaishnavas......and while i do have some vaishnava viewpoints to support my claims ...i do not wish to mention it now .....firstly i dont know if it will do vaishnavas any good ..and secondly i dont have enough time to explain it in detail.........but the key to understanding everything lies in "how r we seperate from krishna? and at what level?.......because krishna himself says that a soul cannot be cut or burnt etc.....then how r we seperate ...how r we parts and parcels ........if we are his shakti .....then what is the nature of this shakti ..and what are its properties.......discussing these things may well open up a can of worms ......... but for the time being i'll pass....... as far as tattva and intrepretation is concerned ..i havent been able to fuly decrypt it ..........but i have found versions of scriptures which give a totally new explanation to many of the stories we find in the puranas.....and also on the gita...... these versions associate the characters in the stories with tattavas and with the chakras in the body ...eg arjun=son of indra =naval chakra..element = fire

hanuman=bhima= heart chakra ..element = wind

 

this is not to say that all this suggests that the events didnt happen ....just to say that when the rishis compile dthe scriptures they encoded it in a certain way ........

 

the complete science is not necessary to understand for most people ....but if they had some idea ....they would start appreciating the methods mentioned in the tantras(change at individual but physical level e.g. gross element like food is sacrificed to subtle fire within) and the vedas(yajnas=change at worldly level ,e.g. gross elements are sacrificed in gross fire in the gross world (outside)....

 

for the kali yuga however ....the tantras and the vedas are difficult to follow ........ so nama yagna is the prescribed method ......sacrifice at purely mental level.... in the mind...harinama japa............

 

but i hope u can see what all this means ...

 

mantras= cure at the level of mind....kali yuga

tantras = cure at the level of body......=dwapar yuga

vedas(yagnas)=cure at the level of gross world= tretayuga

[guliaditya]

Respected Jahnava Nitai Das prabhu,

 

Pls accept my humble obesiance unto your feet.

 

I am very much thankful to you for giving me detailed reply.At present I am too busy with office work hence will revert back to your replies in a short time.Prabhu to which place you belong to.I am in delhi.If we can meet in person will be of great help to me.I would like to have satsang & krishan sankirtan with you.Pls give me an opportunity of your association.

 

Yours

Aditya

[LoveroftheBhagavata]

 

haribol,

I can understand why.......any talk of brahman is like poison for vaishnavas......and while i do have some vaishnava viewpoints to support my claims ...i do not wish to mention it now .....firstly i dont know if it will do vaishnavas any good ..and secondly i dont have enough time to explain it in detail.........but the key to understanding everything lies in "how r we seperate from krishna? and at what level?.......because krishna himself says that a soul cannot be cut or burnt etc.....then how r we seperate ...how r we parts and parcels ........if we are his shakti .....then what is the nature of this shakti ..and what are its properties.......discussing these things may well open up a can of worms ......... but for the time being i'll pass....... as far as tattva and intrepretation is concerned ..i havent been able to fuly decrypt it ..........but i have found versions of scriptures which give a totally new explanation to many of the stories we find in the puranas.....and also on the gita...... these versions associate the characters in the stories with tattavas and with the chakras in the body ...eg arjun=son of indra =naval chakra..element = fire

hanuman=bhima= heart chakra ..element = wind

 

this is not to say that all this suggests that the events didnt happen ....just to say that when the rishis compile dthe scriptures they encoded it in a certain way ........

 

the complete science is not necessary to understand for most people ....but if they had some idea ....they would start appreciating the methods mentioned in the tantras(change at individual but physical level e.g. gross element like food is sacrificed to subtle fire within) and the vedas(yajnas=change at worldly level ,e.g. gross elements are sacrificed in gross fire in the gross world (outside)....

 

for the kali yuga however ....the tantras and the vedas are difficult to follow ........ so nama yagna is the prescribed method ......sacrifice at purely mental level.... in the mind...harinama japa............

 

but i hope u can see what all this means ...

 

mantras= cure at the level of mind....kali yuga

tantras = cure at the level of body......=dwapar yuga

vedas(yagnas)=cure at the level of gross world= tretayuga

 

Haribol

 

Well, it is certainly not my intention or purpose to convert you to Vaishnavism. I'm not into this proselytizing business anyway. Just one word on all that you have said. Advaitins, Shaivas, Shaktas, Vaishnavas, Tantriks, Buddhists etc will disagree with one another till pralaya, or even maha-pralaya, and as I mentioned earlier, little is to be gained by debate. The Vaishnava acharyas, whether Ramanuja, Madhva, Nimbarka, Vishnuswami, and our own Srila Baladeva Vidyabhushana have all written extensive commentaries on the Brahma-sutras, drawing their back-up material from numerous different sources: the Vedas, Upanishads, Puranas, Itihasas, Brahmanas, Aranyakas and other texts too. Sankarites and neo-Vedantins alike can disparage our personalistic conception of divinity all they want, that is all they can do. For us, Sri Hari was, is and will remain the Param Brahma, i.e., the origin and root cause of the Brahmajyoti, just like Bhakti shall forever shine brighter than "mere" jnana.

 

In the Gaudiya sampradaya, though, we do accept that God does have an eternal impersonal feature, the Brahman effulgence, and on this point, we do differ somewhat from certain other Vaishnava lineages. As they say, to each his own, and I do wish you the best advancement possible on your particular chosen path. Pray the same for me with respect to bhakti-yoga for your part.

 

Om tat sat