Shiva vs Vishnu: Vaishnava viewpoint?

[krishnaleela]

 

There is not a preferred form: Shiva and Vishnu are both acceptable, as the same Ishvara reveals Himself in accordance to the seeker. Now this is definitely not acceptable to Shaivites or Vaishnavites, so it is quite ok for the Vaishnavite to focus on devotion to Vishnu as the Vaisnavite scripture is certain on the Lord having the Personal aspect of Vishnu alone.

 

 

I made this statement in the Hinduism forum regarding the advaitic/smartha viewpoint. Can the Vaishnavas clarify or correct regarding your position on the Personal aspect of Ishvara?

 

I understand that all personalities are parts, etc. of the Supreme Person, so would guess that Shiva also becomes an aspect of Ishvara. But is it not true (as per Vaishnava sampradaya) that Ishvara possesses a definitive Personal aspect, unto Himself and independent of the devotees' seeking, and this corresponds to Vishnu/Narayana with Shanka chakra, etc.??

 

It is not just that Vishnu is the 'preferred' or most revealing Personal aspect of Ishvara, but rather Vishnu is THE real Ishvara, who reveals Himself in other personal aspects like Shiva, Brahma, etc? Correct?

[suchandra]

 

I made this statement in the Hinduism forum regarding the advaitic/smartha viewpoint. Can the Vaishnavas clarify or correct regarding your position on the Personal aspect of Ishvara?

 

I understand that all personalities are parts, etc. of the Supreme Person, so would guess that Shiva also becomes an aspect of Ishvara. But is it not true (as per Vaishnava sampradaya) that Ishvara possesses a definitive Personal aspect, unto Himself and independent of the devotees' seeking, and this corresponds to Vishnu/Narayana with Shanka chakra, etc.??

 

It is not just that Vishnu is the 'preferred' or most revealing Personal aspect of Ishvara, but rather Vishnu is THE real Ishvara, who reveals Himself in other personal aspects like Shiva, Brahma, etc? Correct?

Lord Siva cannot be properly considered Vishnu-tattva, but He is not an ordinary ‘demigod’ either. The Vayu-Purana states that Lord Siva's abode is beyond the mundane universe:

 

sri mahadeva lokas tu saptavaranato bahih;

nityah sukhamayah satyo labhyas tat sevakottamaih

"But Sri Mahadeva's (Lord Siva) planet is outside of the seven layers of matter that cover the universe. It is eternal, blissful, real and attainable by His greatest devotees."

 

And Baladeva Vidyabhusana writes:

sivaloke vaikuntha dhamni, "Siva-loka is Vaikuntha-dhama."

[krishnaleela]

 

Lord Siva cannot be properly considered Vishnu-tattva, but He is not an ordinary ‘demigod’ either. The Vayu-Purana states that Lord Siva's abode is beyond the mundane universe:

 

 

What do you mean by Vishnu-tattva?

 

Vishnu is the Supreme Personal Being, right? Typically He is shown as a Person with special aspects like the Shanka-chakra, gada, etc. Are these to symbolize His special Powers by which He brings forth the Existence, Protects His devotees, etc?

 

Is Shiva one of the smaller Personalities that Vishnu projects forth? So when we speak of Shiva, are we relating to specific tattvas/aspects that partially describe the Supreme Being Vishnu but not in a complete or ideal sense?

[suchandra]

 

What do you mean by Vishnu-tattva?

 

Vishnu is the Supreme Personal Being, right? Typically He is shown as a Person with special aspects like the Shanka-chakra, gada, etc. Are these to symbolize His special Powers by which He brings forth the Existence, Protects His devotees, etc?

 

Is Shiva one of the smaller Personalities that Vishnu projects forth? So when we speak of Shiva, are we relating to specific tattvas/aspects that partially describe the Supreme Being Vishnu but not in a complete or ideal sense?

 

 

[...]By expanding Himself as Lord Śiva, the Supreme Lord is engaged when there is a need to annihilate the universe. Lord Śiva, in association with māyā, has many forms, which are generally numbered at eleven. Lord Śiva is not one of the living entities; he is, more or less, Kṛṣṇa Himself. The example of milk and yogurt is often given in this regard — yogurt is a preparation of milk, but still yogurt cannot be used as milk. Similarly, Lord Śiva is an expansion of Kṛṣṇa, but he cannot act as Kṛṣṇa, nor can we derive the spiritual restoration from Lord Śiva that we derive from Kṛṣṇa. The essential difference is that Lord Śiva has a connection with material nature, but Viṣṇu or Lord Kṛṣṇa has nothing to do with material nature. In Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (10.88.3) it is stated that Lord Śiva is a combination of three kinds of transformed consciousness known as vaikārika, taijasa and tāmasa.[...]

 

source: http://vedabase.net/tlc/8/en

[krishnaleela]

 

 

[...]By expanding Himself as Lord Śiva, the Supreme Lord is engaged when there is a need to annihilate the universe. Lord Śiva, in association with māyā, has many forms, which are generally numbered at eleven. Lord Śiva is not one of the living entities; he is, more or less, Kṛṣṇa Himself. The example of milk and yogurt is often given in this regard — yogurt is a preparation of milk, but still yogurt cannot be used as milk. Similarly, Lord Śiva is an expansion of Kṛṣṇa, but he cannot act as Kṛṣṇa, nor can we derive the spiritual restoration from Lord Śiva that we derive from Kṛṣṇa. The essential difference is that Lord Śiva has a connection with material nature, but Viṣṇu or Lord Kṛṣṇa has nothing to do with material nature. In Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (10.88.3) it is stated that Lord Śiva is a combination of three kinds of transformed consciousness known as vaikārika, taijasa and tāmasa.[...]

 

source: http://vedabase.net/tlc/8/en

 

 

Ok. That works. Thanks.

[indulekhadasi]

Vaishnava's understand that Lord Sadasiva is an incarnation of Lord Vishnu but we prefer to address him as the greatest Vaishnava.

 

Lord Shiva once asked Lord Vishnu, "Can I please have a position higher than yours?" Now this may seem like an offensive request but what he was really asking for (even though he already had this position!) was, "Can I please have a position a Vaishnava which is even higher than the position of you, Lord Vishnu?" Such deep, deep tattva here!

 

Vaishnavanam yatha sambuh!

 

All glories to Lord Shiva, the greatest Vaishnava.

 

Jai Nitai

indulekhadasi

[shiva]

The gaudiya viewpoint on Shiva as articulated by Jiva Goswami (Jiva goswami was deputed by Sri Caitaya to write the philosophical basis for the gaudiya sampradaya)

 

Jiva Goswami explains (in I think his Paramatma Sandarbha) that there are 2 types of Shivas. He says that when the sastras describe Shiva as being like Vishnu, then that is Sadasiva, who is a svamsa expansion of Krishna and is therefore Visnu tattva, and when Shiva is described as being less then Vishnu then that is the demigod Shiva, who is not a svamsa expansion, not Visnu Tattva.

 

Visnu tattva means an avatar of Visnu, like Krishna, Ramachandra, Narayana, Sri Radha, Lakshmi devi, Sita etc. They are all the all pervading (Visnu) supreme lord.

 

There are many threads on this forum where the details of this topic have been gone over in depth.

[jaisd]

 

I made this statement in the Hinduism forum regarding the advaitic/smartha viewpoint. Can the Vaishnavas clarify or correct regarding your position on the Personal aspect of Ishvara?

 

I understand that all personalities are parts, etc. of the Supreme Person, so would guess that Shiva also becomes an aspect of Ishvara. But is it not true (as per Vaishnava sampradaya) that Ishvara possesses a definitive Personal aspect, unto Himself and independent of the devotees' seeking, and this corresponds to Vishnu/Narayana with Shanka chakra, etc.??

 

It is not just that Vishnu is the 'preferred' or most revealing Personal aspect of Ishvara, but rather Vishnu is THE real Ishvara, who reveals Himself in other personal aspects like Shiva, Brahma, etc? Correct?

 

To put it right on a Saivaite view point. Shiva can never be devotee of vishnu nor to any other God as explained, because Siva (actually the Iswar) has no form and never takes incarnation, he is uniformly distributed(vaccum + subatomic particles) and he is what is the base for all good and all bad.

 

According to this explanation, anything that has a shape and form will undergo distruction, so do vishnu who has a form(seen in human form), will undergo distruction(He will perish). The stories said by Saivaites as Shiva activities etc are not right, as they represent the devine formless person in a person view to make layman understand his qualities. Though saivaites try to fight in stories agains vishnu, the truth is it is entirely a different concept, which makes Shiva as Supreme than anything. Just think how can the supreme be devotee of someone? One who has no form(and no begining and no end) becomes a devotee of on who will perish?

 

Shiva according to vaishava is yet another demi God, but according to Saivaite view point, Vishnu is not even near to Shiva(Iswar) as he will perish.