Differences between tape transcripts and books

[Kulapavana]

Kindly compare

 

http://www.prabhupadavani.org/Conversations/Text/222.html

 

to:

 

http://www.harekrsna.com/philosophy/gss/sadhu/religions/killing.htm

 

this is the conversation between Prabhupada and Cardinal Danielou. I was surprised how different that conversation really was compared to the version circulated in the movement (Science of Self-Realization, Chapter 4 ).

[Murali_Mohan_das]

I see the significant differences.

 

Is there a problem? Would you prefer that the unedited transcript be published?

[Kulapavana]

 

I see the significant differences.

 

Is there a problem? Would you prefer that the unedited transcript be published?

 

Some editing is required (in terms of form) but the book version contains things that were never said by either side. I was wondering who made these parts up and whether it was approved by Prabhupada.

 

Just like the integrity of some letters attributed to Prabhupada is now in question because they were actually written by his secretaries, I'm wondering about various other transcripts, like those used to make the book "Perfect Questions, Perfect Answers".

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Those are good questions.

 

Of course, you know how I feel about overreliance on books. That's not to say that I spend enough time reading shastra--no doubt I'd benefit from doing more reading.

 

 

Some editing is required (in terms of form) but the book version contains things that were never said by either side. I was wondering who made these parts up and whether it was approved by Prabhupada.

 

Just like the integrity of some letters attributed to Prabhupada is now in question because they were actually written by his secretaries, I'm wondering about various other transcripts, like those used to make the book "Perfect Questions, Perfect Answers".

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

I would also think that the people in the conversations would probably be offended if they came across the edited versions. If they had left the person's name out it would probably be better. Because you can't present a philosophical debate while changing someone's words to make him look like the loser in the debate.

 

It would be more acceptable to anonymize the debator and just present it as concepts.

[Kulapavana]

 

I would also think that the people in the conversations would probably be offended if they came across the edited versions. If they had left the person's name out it would probably be better. Because you can't present a philosophical debate while changing someone's words to make him look like the loser in the debate.

 

It would be more acceptable to anonymize the debator and just present it as concepts.

 

Agreed. In some countries you can even be sued for such misrepresentation. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura used a dialogue between ficticious characters to present philosophical concepts, and that is a much better solution.

[Sarva gattah]

Almost all of Prabhupada’s books are transcribed from tape

A few days later a message arrived from Prabhupada. That confidential pastime about Lord Balarama, which he had privately told Gargamuni and Brahmananda, arrived in the mail on a Dictaphone tape – to be transcribed, edited, painted and turned into a book by the press devotees.

Prabhupada wanted this pastime to be distributed to millions of lost souls, as part of the Krsna book, so that those souls could derive spiritual enlightenment by reading it, and gradually enter Krsna's own personal service.

Prabhupada asked that each Dictaphone tape he recorded, go through its own assembly line – two days for transcribing, four days for first and second editing, two days for diacritic marks and two days for composing.

In that way, together we could produce fifteen tapes, or three hundred pages, per month.

That meant that one book would be ready for publishing every two months, which meant we would publish six books a year and the sixty volumes of the Bhagavatam would be completed in ten years". Jadurani/Syamarani dasi on transcribing taped words into books

 

It would be interesting if the taped words of Srila Pranhupada, from where the Srimad Bhagavatam was typed, are still preserved somewhere?

[Kulapavana]

 

It would be interesting if the taped words of Srila Pranhupada, from where the Srimad Bhagavatam was typed, are still preserved somewhere?

 

Most of them are gone forever as initially tapes were re-used by Prabhupada after being transcribed. Only towards the end the tapes were kept as a permanent record. Maybe from 1975 or 1976 on. Earlier book tapes are pretty much all gone. Thus there are tapes only for the later Cantos of Srimad Bhagavatam (7-10).

[Bishadi]

 

Agreed. In some countries you can even be sued for such misrepresentation. Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura used a dialogue between ficticious characters to present philosophical concepts, and that is a much better solution.

 

trying out the shoes myself

 

ps... thx for the integrity and even solutions.....

[Kulapavana]

 

 

ps... thx for the integrity and even solutions.....

 

you are welcome.

 

this should actually be considered a pretty serious matter, especially to the 'Prabhupada absolutist' crowd, who claim that everything he said and wrote is absolute. problem is that not everything they think he said or wrote are actually his statements.

 

sort of like those Bible thumpers who refuse to acknowledge the extensive editing of that book during the first 4 centuries.

[cbrahma]

I don't see significant differences in meaning - just the language differences cleaned up.

[Bishadi]

 

you are welcome.

 

this should actually be considered a pretty serious matter, especially to the 'Prabhupada absolutist' crowd, who claim that everything he said and wrote is absolute. problem is that not everything they think he said or wrote are actually his statements.

 

sort of like those Bible thumpers who refuse to acknowledge the extensive editing of that book during the first 4 centuries.

 

nice to see a real one in the midst

 

I agree on these summaries; and also recognize how religions can instigate their own abuse; one minute it is absolute, the next, redefining meanings.

 

All the kids ever want is a straight answer; one pass!

[suchandra]

 

you are welcome.

 

this should actually be considered a pretty serious matter, especially to the 'Prabhupada absolutist' crowd, who claim that everything he said and wrote is absolute.

Agreed, there're people who are confused about what Prabhupada actually said and in what context he said something. Just like when Krsna appears in this world many people become confused and start to deride Krsna and Krsna has to remind, they're asses. This is the normal functioning of material brains to always see flaws. However, at least the residents of "Prabhupada Village" shouldn't jump on this bandwagon of swimming with the public opinion. They should rather try to put Prabhupada's general framework into perspective. Or rather rename "Prabhupada Village", into something else.

[Priitaa]

 

Just like the integrity of some letters attributed to Prabhupada is now in question because they were actually written by his secretaries, I'm wondering about various other transcripts, like those used to make the book "Perfect Questions, Perfect Answers".

 

I've heard this before but thought it was over.

 

Not saying this is your belief, simply in general: I find it starting that some believe Prabhupada was unaware of what he was signing. Just cuz he spoke his letter to his secretary who next typed it up, Prabhupada read and signed it. One example is his Will (not trying to get into that tho, just making a point.) He had given specific dictation, which the devotee did not approve of, so he changed it. Then he brought the Will back for Prabhupada's signature, but Prabhupada would not sign it. No, we can not think Prabhupada was covered over as we might be. He surely knew everything he signed. Everything. We should not doubt his awareness. .... Just my two cents.

[Kulapavana]

 

I find it starting that some believe Prabhupada was unaware of what he was signing. Just cuz he spoke his letter to his secretary who next typed it up, Prabhupada read and signed it. One example is his Will (not trying to get into that tho, just making a point.) He had given specific dictation, which the devotee did not approve of, so he changed it. Then he brought the Will back for Prabhupada's signature, but Prabhupada would not sign it. No, we can not think Prabhupada was covered over as we might be. He surely knew everything he signed. Everything. We should not doubt his awareness. ....

 

Based on various sources, including the B. Archives, many letters were simply stamped with Prabhupada's signature. Several of his secretaries were also quite good at forging his signature. Many letters are not writen in Prabhupada's style and are far too polished linguistically to be his own (see his very early letters for his style). But many letters to various disciples were indeed written by his secretary and signed by him. Do they truly represent Prabhupada's vani? I have my doubts about that.

 

If anything, all of his letters should be thoroughly authenticated by the analysis of language and verification of signature.

[cbrahma]

 

Agreed, there're people who are confused about what Prabhupada actually said and in what context he said something. Just like when Krsna appears in this world many people become confused and start to deride Krsna and Krsna has to remind, they're asses. This is the normal functioning of material brains to always see flaws. However, at least the residents of "Prabhupada Village" shouldn't jump on this bandwagon of swimming with the public opinion. They should rather try to put Prabhupada's general framework into perspective. Or rather rename "Prabhupada Village", into something else.

Apparently there is nothing that Kula is not expert on.. We just have to take his word that everything that has been documented is now questionable. He has been undermining Prabhupada's credibility as long as I've read his posts. He is in 'Prabhupada's village'?? Well in name only. ISKCON used to be Prabhupada's society.

[stonehearted]

 

Based on various sources, including the B. Archives, many letters were simply stamped with Prabhupada's signature. Several of his secretaries were also quite good at forging his signature.

Well, this is easy to say. I've heard it several times over the last 30-odd years, but rarely from anyone in whom I had explicit trust.

 

Many letters are not writen in Prabhupada's style and are far too polished linguistically to be his own (see his very early letters for his style). But many letters to various disciples were indeed written by his secretary and signed by him. Do they truly represent Prabhupada's vani? I have my doubts about that.

This isn't a hard one at all. I asked him about it personally in 1973. I told him that some devotees didn't trust his letters because they didn't think he wrote them. He told me that his secretary read him the letters he received, he told them what to say in reply. Then he read the replies and made any corrections before he signed them. "If they don't trust my system," he told me, "they don't trust me." So as far as the style goes, it's generally either his secretaries' own style, or their style influenced by his in some way, or perhaps their attempt to sound like him.

 

Does that mean there was no hanky-panky among his secretaries? Probably not. When I first met Srila Prabhupada in Honolulu in 1970, I had nagging suspicions of the men around him. And from what I've read about what was going on at the time, he had deep suspicions about some of his leaders. Nevertheless, he showed he was in control.

 

 

If anything, all of his letters should be thoroughly authenticated by the analysis of language and verification of signature.

Yeah, that sounds like a lovely way to throw someone's money away on "experts," as was done in the poison "investigations."

 

Perhaps the biggest problem with the way things he said in the letters are used is taking them out of context. Another is giving the same weight to each and every statement. Each letter was written to a particular person in response to something they wrote, to something that happened, or both, in the context of certain other events. And each statement in each letter had a particular purpose, known best by him. Analysis of any text includes knowing about the author, the audience, and the author's purpose. Not everything in every letter should be taken as a general, absolute statement applicable to everyone who ever lived. Some were very personal, not meant for everyone to read. We ought to take into consideration everything we can understand about the context in order to really understand what he said in each letter.

[Kulapavana]

 

I asked him about it personally in 1973. I told him that some devotees didn't trust his letters because they didn't think he wrote them. He told me that his secretary read him the letters he received, he told them what to say in reply. Then he read the replies and made any corrections before he signed them. "If they don't trust my system," he told me, "they don't trust me." So as far as the style goes, it's generally either his secretaries' own style, or their style influenced by his in some way, or perhaps their attempt to sound like him.

 

Does that mean there was no hanky-panky among his secretaries? Probably not. When I first met Srila Prabhupada in Honolulu in 1970, I had nagging suspicions of the men around him. And from what I've read about what was going on at the time, he had deep suspicions about some of his leaders. Nevertheless, he showed he was in control.

 

 

A question for you: Do you actually believe that these letters written by his secretaries have any siddhantic value for the movement in general?

 

The mistrust was clearly there: both then and now. And what do you think the signature stamps were for?

[stonehearted]

No, I wouldn't rely much on the letters for siddhanta, depending on the situation. I think some letters may be more useful in this regard than others. I read a letter to a Godbrother in which Srila Prabhupada decried the whole "Prabhupada said" phenomenon as "another cheating." He further wrote, "If it is not in my books, I did not say it."

 

The stamps? I can't say I know for sure--can you? And if you can, how?

What--specifically--is your evidence? I actually held one in my hand, had it in my possession for a while. They weren't what you might think, or at least this one wasn't. It was not a rubber stamp made at a copy shop. It was metal, no handle, irregularly shaped. Perhaps it was from an offset plate or something. And don't think it didn't get my mind going. I was the same guy who, five or six years earlier, had real suspicions about the men running ISKCON, even the men traveling with Srila Prabhupada. I asked Upendra about them, and he didn't think there was anything particularly sinister about them.

 

In any case, my spiritual life is rooted too deeply to be disturbed by these kinds of things. I have full confidence in Srila Prabhupada--confidence that has been tested.

[Kulapavana]

 

The stamps? I can't say I know for sure--can you? And if you can, how?

What--specifically--is your evidence? I actually held one in my hand, had it in my possession for a while. They weren't what you might think, or at least this one wasn't. It was not a rubber stamp made at a copy shop. It was metal, no handle, irregularly shaped. Perhaps it was from an offset plate or something.

 

I know from several reliable sources, that such stamps were made, and that some letters now in the folio were stamped with them. If nothing else, that part should be fairly easy to investigate and settle.

 

Btw. what do you think about the original subject matter (records of conversation between Prabhupada and Cardinal Danielou)? Any idea if the book "Prefect Questions, Perfect Answers" is a similar editing job?

[stonehearted]

All of Srila Prabhupada's small books except Easy Journey are put together with edited transcripts of lectures; PQPA is edited from some conversations. Would I give the small books the same weight as Srimad-Bhagavatam, Krishna book, Bhagavad-gita As It Is? No. Srila Prabhupada had those books created for mass distribution. I'm perfectly clear that, whatever imperfections one might find in them, they're acceptable to him for what they are.

 

With specific regard to the two versions of the conversation between Srila Prabhupada and that French priest, would you prefer that it be included without any editing? I hate to be the one to break this to you, but editing is an essential element of writing and of publishing. Srila Prabhupada, as an experienced writer and publisher, showed his appreciation of that fact.

 

If you're so excited about the stamps, Kula prabhu, why not spearhead--maybe even finance--an investigation? Would you be willing to support your assertion by naming your "several reliable sources," or are we compelled to accept it because you said so? No big deal--just asking.

[Kulapavana]

 

Would you be willing to support your assertion by naming your "several reliable sources," or are we compelled to accept it because you said so?

 

I would have to ask them if I can do that.

 

I understand the need for editing. I worked for BBT for several years, translating and editing Prabhupada's books. I even started a thread on this forum a while back, "Places where books need to be changed". But I would have never changed the conversation with Cardinal Danielou to the extent it was done by the BBT.