suchandra Posted February 13, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 Help the Ksatriyas are coming!!! In the minds of those who are too attached to sense enjoyment and material opulence, and who are bewildered by such things, the resolute determination for devotional service to the Supreme Lord does not take place. BG 2.44 PURPORT Samādhi means "fixed mind." The Vedic dictionary, the Nirukti, says, samyag ādhīyate 'sminn ātma-tattva-yāthātmyam: "When the mind is fixed for understanding the self, it is said to be in samādhi. " Samādhi is never possible for persons interested in material sense enjoyment, nor for those who are bewildered by such temporary things. They are more or less condemned by the process of material energy. http://vedabase.net/bg/2/44/en Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 Why me? So you are saying that I am more or less condemned by the process of material energy? I'm afraid to shave up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhaktajan Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 Isopanisad 8 Purport . . . God is described here as paribhüù, the greatest of all. No one is greater than or equal to Him. Other living beings are described here as beggars who ask goods from the Lord. The Lord supplies the things the living entities desire. If the entities were equal to the Lord in potency—if they were omnipotent and omniscient—there would be no question of their begging from the Lord, even for so-called liberation. Real liberation means going back to Godhead. Liberation as conceived of by an impersonalist is a myth, and begging for sense gratification has to continue eternally unless the beggar comes to his spiritual senses and realizes his constitutional position. . . . Le petite Rascals: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 Monsieur bhaktajan vous devez immédiatement observer cette vidéo, Yum Yum Eatum vers le haut ! Les Petits Rascals - Notre Troupe... (Mister bhaktajan you must immediately watch this video, Yum Yum Eatum Up! The Little Rascals - Our Gang...) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K64V74hPBVA&feature=related Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vedesu Posted February 13, 2008 Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 Why me? So you are saying that I am more or less condemned by the process of material energy? I'm afraid to shave up! The way I read it, he was trying to say: In Soviet-occupied Russia, a sinister madman conives to maintain total control as spectators watch the historic flags of Soviet regiments leave to cross the Rhine into Germany, Aug. 19, 1945, in Moscow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suchandra Posted February 13, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2008 Can some help me? Please post the quote that Sri Ramachandra said in regards to Sugriva (I think it was Sugriva): That Rama said that he would go with his respected friend to hell rather than abandon him (due to the selfless bond that Sugriva also had). ys, Bhaktajan Could only find this: RAMA CHOOSES TO ALLY WITH SUGREEVA "Lakshmana had his misgivings. 'I am not certain whether Sugreeva is trying to involve you in anything more than an ordinary combat between monkeys. I do not know if we should participate in this struggle at all. How can you trust as an ally one who has not hesitated to intrigue fatally against a brother?'" (from Valmiki, trans. R.K. Narayan) Defining the Dilemma After Ravana has captured Sita, Rama desperately searches for a way to save her. As he is traveling in the kingdom of Kishkindha, he comes upon Sugreeva, a deposed king of the monkey kingdom, and Hanuman, his general. Sugreeva explains to Rama that he has been deposed by his ruthless brother, Vali, who has captured his wife and imprisoned his friends. Now, alone and afraid, Sugreeva has been tormented by his brother and the various vanaras that he has sent to kill him. Hanuman assures Rama that Sugreeva is telling the truth. When Sugreeva shows compassion for Rama's loss of his wife, Rama promises to help him defeat his brother. After this promise is made, Sugreeva continues to explain how he had been deposed by his brother. It seems that Vali, his elder brother, was king when a demon threatened his kingdom. Vali left the palace with Sugreeva at his side, in pursuit of the demon. Realizing that Vali was a formidable opponent, the demon hid in a cave to try to escape the mighty Vali. At this point, Sugreeva was asked to promise his brother to stay by the door of the cave so that Vali could enter the cave, kill the demon, and return to the palace. Sugreeva waited a year, and, when Vali did not return, he assumed that his brother had died. He placed a large bolder in front of the door of the cave and returned to the palace where he took over the throne and ruled as king. Vali was not dead, however. When he returned, he was angry with his brother for leaving the cave and for usurping his power. He banished him from the kingdom, took Sugreeva's wife for his own, and placed all of Sugreeva's ministers in prison. Sugreeva lives in exile, living in constant fear of his mighty brother's wrath. Full of confidence for acquiring his new ally, Sugreeva enters the battle with Vali. Vali appears invincible. As Rama watches from behind a tree, Sugreeva pleads with him for assistance. Rama instructs him to wear a garland of flowers around his neck while fighting Vali because they look so much alike to him. Sugreeva returns to the battle and is eventually overcome by Vali's strength. As Vali holds Sugreeva's neck in his clutches, the younger brother makes a last plea to Rama to save him. Rama shoots his arrow from behind the tree, killing Vali. Sugreeva is returned to the throne, and his army joins Rama's cause. Outcomes / Consequences Rama has promised to fight on the side of Sugreeva, but he did so before he knew all of the details of Sugreeva's exile. If he kills Vali, he could be accused of interfering in an affair between brothers. Sugreeva may not in fact be on the side of righteousness in this scenario, for he has violated his dharma by usurping power from his brother who was still alive and depending on him to be waiting outside the cave. Vali is a powerful figure, and he has been given a boon by the gods which allows him to drain half the power from his opponents and use it against them. Rama's success in this battle is not guaranteed. If Rama chooses not to kill Vali, he will have broken a promise to a friend. Rama needs a powerful army to help rescue his missing wife. An alliance with Sugreeva and helping him recapture the throne, would place Sugreeva's powerful army at Rama's disposal, including the resourceful general, Hanuman. Dharma According to the rules of dharma, a warrior must first declare himself an enemy of his opponent before entering into battle. Secondly, a warrior's attack must never take place in secret (Rama attacked Vali from a hidden spot behind a tree). Vali, having heard a rumor of Rama's alliance with Sugreeva, tells his wife that Rama is too noble a warrior to enter into this fight without declaring himself. Vali had committed a sin against his own dharma by capturing his brother's wife and keeping her as his own. According to the dharma of a king, one may settle disputes within one's territory, even if the disputes exist between brothers, and a king may punish within his own kingdom any one of his subjects who has committed a breach of dharma; however, Rama is not the king of Vali's territory. A king's dharma includes the power to punish, so long as the punishment is just. Unjust punishments could result in the destruction of the king and his family (Rama and Vali are both kings). As a warrior, Rama is entitled by dharma to hunt forest creatures (Vali is a monkey). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhaktajan Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 Originally Posted by suchandra . . .Sugreeva has been tormented by his brother and the various vanaras that he has sent to kill him. Hanuman assures Rama that Sugreeva is telling the truth. When Sugreeva shows compassion for Rama's loss of his wife, Rama promises to help him defeat his brother. . . . Thank you, Prabhu Suchandra. This is great. I saw the qoute by Rama in the Sagar's Indian epic movie series "Ramayana" years ago. Rama actually makes a small speech regarding going to hell for his friends if need be ... my desire is to re-hear the reasoning behind that sentiment--how it is logical etc. [if I heard it right ] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted February 14, 2008 Report Share Posted February 14, 2008 I saw the qoute by Rama in the Sagar's Indian epic movie series "Ramayana" years ago. Rama actually makes a small speech regarding going to hell for his friends if need be ... my desire is to re-hear the reasoning behind that sentiment--how it is logical etc. [if I heard it right ] The Bollywood version of the scriptures can only be compared with Hollywood version of reality. On top of that there are hundreds of different Ramayana versions circulating in India. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vijay Posted February 17, 2008 Report Share Posted February 17, 2008 Haribol prabhu I think the author may of been Mahatma prabhu (ACBVP) not Bhakticaru Swami. Heres a link I found http://www.prabhupada.org/rama/?p=4187 Vijay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suchandra Posted February 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2008 Haribol prabhu I think the author may of been Mahatma prabhu (ACBVP) not Bhakticaru Swami. Heres a link I found http://www.prabhupada.org/rama/?p=4187 Vijay It is indeed confusing, I got the article as an email, saying, "A Message from Bhakti Caru Swami, by Mahatma das". Here a screenshot from the original mail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AncientMariner Posted February 18, 2008 Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 Thanks LoveroftheBhagavata, Bhakti Caru Swami (BCS) seems to always be trying to follow his spiritual master with great sincerity - here a few quotes of him about guru-tattva: "Bhakti Marg Maharaja, he is kind of, even, he was telling me yesterday when he gives initiation he tells his disciples that you are actually Prabhupada's disciple and I am taking care of you, trying to help you to become engaged in Srila Prabhupada's mission. Now that's actually the crux of the whole thing, that if everybody understands and makes that point clear to their disciples then I think that a lot of our problems will be solved." (BCS, Toronto meeting) "I make it very clear to them that disciples in ISKCON do not belong to their gurus; they belong to Srila Prabhupada." (BCS Istagosthi) "A devotee who joins the movement and is trained and cultivated by ISKCON in the form of the local temple devotees. He is doing fine and being trained up nicely.But then he gets initiated by somebody who comes to that place once in a blue moon, but because he has been initiated by him he begins to think that he is his authority and the local devotees don't mean anything to him anymore." (BCS, Disciples Meeting) "We must recognize that our first loyalty is to the local temple and the temple authority. And as a spiritual master what should I do? I think as a spiritual master it is my responsibility to reconfirm and reestablish that relationship with the local temple and temple authority." (BCS, Disciples Meeting) "Why do we hesitate to tell a new comer who is searching for a guru that Srila Prabhupada, the best guru the world has ever seen, is still here, and one can surrender unto him and go back to Godhead very easily?" (BCS Offering an Srila Prabhupada's Disappearance Day) "Initiation has two objectives. One is to receive the mantra and the other is to formalize surrender. In today's context the important consideration is the surrender. [...] If you are surrendering to me, formalizing your surrender, then what kind of responsibility do I have to you. It is to transmit your surrender to the institution of ISKCON. Generally the guru transmits this to Krsna, but here I am not directly representing Krsna. I am representing Krsna through the via medium of Srila Prabhupada and ISKCON." (BCS, Disciples Meeting) "Generally, a guru establishes a link between Krsna and his disciple. [...] Srila Prabhupada, as the pre-eminent acarya, takes you to Krsna and engages you in His service." (BCS Istaghosti, Text PAMHO: 13658994 ) "I cannot lead you to Krsna." (BCS Istagosthi) "Srila Prabhupada will take you to Krsna." (BCS, Durban disciples meeting) "Usually the guru has an ashram and his disciples come to the ashram and get trained by the guru. [...] ISKCON is Srila Prabhupada's ashram. [...] Generally the guru has an ashram and he hands over the authority of the ashram to one disciple. He appoints a successor. But Srila Prabhupada didn't do that in ISKCON. [..] Rather, Prabhupada wanted us to manage the society collectively through the Governing Body." (BCS, Disciples Meeting) "Now let us come to your point. Yes, devotees need a qualified spiritual master and I will say in ISKCON we have the most qualified spiritual master who is Srila Prabhupada. And everyone in ISKCON is meant to represent Srila Prabhupada. In ISKCON who is the ultimate spiritual master? You need a spiritual master, but who is that spiritual master? It is Srila Prabhupada." (BCS, Disciples Meeting) "What Jesus is to Christianity and what Muhammed is to Islam, Srila Prabhupada should be that to ISKCON." (BCS, Day 3, LA Seminar, "Questions and Answers") "After Harikesa fell down in 1998, in 1999 I proposed that it's obvious that we are going in the wrong direction. Now, when you go wrong, when you know you're going in the wrong direction, what do you do? You stop to find the right way. So for the time being, let's stop giving initiation and find out what is actually the problem and what is the solution to this problem, whether we can find a solution and until then, let us stop." (Bhakti Caru Swami, Toronto lecture) "And what is the line of authority structure in ISKCON? The line of authority is that Srila Prabhupada is the FounderAcarya of ISKCON. Where does our ultimate loyalty lie? It lies with Srila Prabhupada.Then Prabhupada pointed out that the GBC is the ultimate managing authority in ISKCON. In the line of authority, next to Srila Prabhupada is the GBC body, and then there is the GBC member; everyone has a GBC member who is the zonal secretary.So we should be loyal to the GBC body and to the GBC member. And then there is the temple unit and in the temple who is the person in charge of the temple? It is the temple president. [...] In this way we have the line of authority." (BCS, Disciples Meeting) "I give initiation because I have been asked to do so. If ISKCON tells me, "initiate," I initiate. And if the GBC tells me, "don't initiate," I don't initiate." (BCS Istagosthi) 'Our main problem was introducing a defective initiation system. And that defective system may have been watered down to some extent but it's still prevailing." (BCS, Toronto meeting) "Your diksa guru is giving you diksa because the institution of ISKCON decided that he should give diksa." (BCS, Text PAMH06829041) "Compared to during Srila Prabhupadas time, ISKCON is stagnant. When you go to the West, you see Indians manning the temples. This means that Westerners are not joining, and Indians, because it is their thing, are joining despite our lack of preaching." (Bhakti Caru Swami, lecture) Don't know anything about Bhakti Caru Swami but from these quotes it sounds like he is a ritvik? That trips me out because I have heard a lot about how evil and awful the ritviks are from most Iskcon devotees and it appears that one of the respected iskcon gurus is essentially acting as a ritvik? I never can seem to fully understand all of these philosophical debates and transcendental contradictions within Iskcon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted February 18, 2008 Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 Don't know anything about Bhakti Caru Swami but from these quotes it sounds like he is a ritvik? That trips me out because I have heard a lot about how evil and awful the ritviks are from most Iskcon devotees and it appears that one of the respected iskcon gurus is essentially acting as a ritvik? I never can seem to fully understand all of these philosophical debates and transcendental contradictions within Iskcon. What you call rtvik is really hard rtvik. ISKCON is soft rtvik. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted February 18, 2008 Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 What you call rtvik is really hard rtvik. ISKCON is soft rtvik. That should clear it up for him. Designations layered upon designations is no way to escape the world of names. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted February 18, 2008 Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 That should clear it up for him. Designations layered upon designations is no way to escape the world of names. If you're going to rtvik loka, there's going to be some gentle people there. All across the ISKCON nation there's a new generation, there's a new vibration, rtivks in motion, rtiviks in motion... If you're going to rtvik loka, be sure to put a flower in your hair. If you're going to rtvik loka... Help the Rtviks are coming!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suchandra Posted February 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 If you're going to rtvik loka, there's going to be some gentle people there.All across the ISKCON nation there's a new generation, there's a new vibration, rtivks in motion, rtiviks in motion... If you're going to rtvik loka, be sure to put a flower in your hair. If you're going to rtvik loka... Help the Rtviks are coming!!! Well, you could also say, no, the ritviks are not coming but present gurus are performing inefficiently, filing petitions in bankruptcy and send their disciples to social assistance office. Underachievement also in transcendental literature being distributed. What whole NA does was doubled by the small Swiss yatra during Prabhupada's time. Folks like Curly Howard (pic above) of course say, abolish hawking with religious books altogether. But if according Jaya-Gurudeva das, Prague, the "mleccha religions", like Jehovah's witnesses can distribute their magazine as a twice-monthly printing exceeding 16 million copies, why not the sura religion? "- 13% - change compared to last year". Scores received thru 02/16/2008 North American offering to Srila Prabhupada MahaBig Big Medium Small BTGs Total Total % Templ/ Books Books Books Books Mags Books Points Change Devotee -- January 4398 4390 6341 15708 1295 32132 16280.35 -13% 24/ 67 ---------- Totals 4398 4390 6341 15708 1295 32132 16280.35 -13% 24/ 67 (%)Change compared to last year source: http://books.google.com/books?id=5c49znxZDB0C&pg=PA23&lpg=PA23&dq=watchtower+magazine+million&source=web&ots=DE2fA7qmUF&sig=Z4ZepoYYqWj2U8yt-Q1twdFkf4k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vedesu Posted February 18, 2008 Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 Help the Rtviks are coming!!! May God help us all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suchandra Posted February 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 May God help us all. You mean to say, "vedic knowledge is not a recent discovery? It is all old revealed knowledge and when Krishna refers to it as purātanah, which means ancient", Krishna becomes a ritivik by Himself refering to ancient wisdom? evam paramparā-prāptam imam rājarsayo viduh sa kāleneha mahatā yogo nastah parantapa sa evāyam mayā te ’dya yogam proktah purātanah bhakto ’si me sakhā ceti rahasyam hy etad uttamam [bg. 4.3] source: Rāja-Vidyā: The King of Knowledge, Chapter five Or as Bhakta David Haslam wrote yesterday: Reply to request for explanation on realisations Firstly may I thank you for taking the time to read and make a comment on one of my postings. May I also express my inadequacy in expanding on the verses but I will try my best; these two verses I have found are very deep and have many levels to them however it is difficult for me to sum these up adequately, I hope that my reply will be adequate for you. These two texts not only help us to understand our eternal relationship with Krishna whilst also expelling any impersonal philosophy or teachings. Always think of Me, become My devotee, worship Me and offer your homage unto Me. Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend. Bg 18.65 In the Purport by HH Srila Prabhupada for BG 18.65 he explains the following: One should always act in such a way that all his daily activities are in connection with Krsna. He should arrange his life in such a way that throughout the twenty-four hours he cannot but think of Krsna. And the Lord’s promise is that anyone who is in such pure Krsna consciousness will certainly return to the abode of Krsna, where he will be engaged in the association of Krsna face to face. This would truly be impossible if as some interpret we are meant to merge with Krsna and become one; but also that our thoughts should be absorbed in thinking about Krishna no matter what our circumstances are. HH Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura in his commentary notes: make an offering of your mind, your senses, or items of worship unto me, I will respond and give myself to you. I make this oath to you (te satyam). The word satyam implies something of which there is no doubt. In the footnotes it is noted Krsna said, “You will come to me.” Another way of saying this is “I will give myself to you”. Again you could ask yourself how is this possible if we are meant to merge into one? It also for me enforces this deep personal relationship we can develop with Krishna simply by training our minds and focusing on the best way to serve him, putting Krsna first in all that we do. Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reactions. Do not fear. Bg 18.66 In the Purport by HH Srila Prabhupada for BG 18.66 he explains the following: According to the devotional process, one should simply accept such religious principles that will lead ultimately to the devotional service of the Lord. One may perform a particular occupational duty according to his position in the social order, but if by executing his duty one does not come to the point of Krsna consciousness, all his activities are in vain. Anything that does not lead to the perfectional stage of Krsna consciousness should be avoided. One should be confident that in all circumstances Krsna will protect him from all difficulties. The particular words used here, ma sucah, “Don’t fear, don’t hesitate, don’t worry,” are very significant. One may be perplexed as to how one can give up all kinds of religious forms and simply surrender unto Krsna, but such worry is useless. HH Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura uses the word dharmas instead of religion but the overall commentary and notations comes to the same conclusion. So how do we know what’s what? Srila Prabhupada in Letter to Mahapurusa Says: The spiritual master are two parallel lines. The train, on two tracks, moves forward. The spiritual master and Krishna are like these two tracks, they must be served simultaneously. Krishna helps one to find bona fide spiritual master, and bona fide spiritual master helps one to understand Krishna. If one does not get bona fide spiritual master, then how he can ever understand Krishna? You cannot serve Krishna without spiritual master, or serve just spiritual master without serving Krishna. They must be served simultaneously. By seeking a spiritual master who will help us focus and change our lives from a materialist to one were we look at not only developing our own personal relationship with Krsna, but more importantly help others. Then we can make this human form of life a success, and as promised take up our eternal position as devotees of Krsna. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted February 18, 2008 Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 Bhakti Caru Maharaja seems to be the Iskcon guru most often quoted by the ritvik camp. Perhaps this is really the way he thinks, or perhaps he is trying to play both sides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted February 18, 2008 Report Share Posted February 18, 2008 Help the Rtviks are coming!!! May God help us all. (peut Dieu nous aider tous.) Sacre bleau!!!!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suchandra Posted February 19, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2008 Bhakti Caru Maharaja seems to be the Iskcon guru most often quoted by the ritvik camp. Perhaps this is really the way he thinks, or perhaps he is trying to play both sides. Thanks to God there're scholars who explain what is wrong and right like HG Sriman Krishna-kirti prabhu, editor of the Hare Krishna Cultural Journal. Although it seems in order to enforce his logic he felt kind of desperate to make use of the bag of tricks to consider Vaishnavas as on a par with followers of mleccha religions. Excerpt from ISKCON Constitution Essay Submitted by krishna-kirti on Thu, 02/14/2008 - 23:54. This is an excerpt from my ISKCON Constitution Essay: Ritvikism’s Western Cultural Roots Ritvikism is Protestant ISKCON-ianity. It is, after all, a protest movement. It defines itself in terms of reform, much as how, for example, some Lutheran denominations see themselves as working towards future reconciliation with the Roman Catholic Church. Whether ritvikists are affiliated with the politically successful IRM (ISKCON Revival Movement) or remain apart from it, they all prefer a “literalist” reading of Srila Prabhupada’s statements. Being a literalist does not mean the literalist always accepts the literal, or direct, meaning of any particular passage and rejects all other understandings. When there is some conflict between one or more authoritative passages, the literalist will proffer indirect meanings instead of literal meanings. Yet their preference is for the literal meaning of any particular statement Srila Prabhupada made. Because of their literalism, ritvikists are squarely in the conservative camp. Yet although ritvikists are conservative, they are not traditionalist. Like many evangelistic, “low church” denominations, ritvikists eschew tradition, or they at least maintain a utilitarian view of it. In modern ritvikism’s foundational manifesto, The Final Order, Krishnakant Desai makes this statement [bolding in original]: It is a distinguishing feature of acaryas in our line that, practically without exception, they set their own historical precedents. As acaryas, it is their prerogative to do this; albeit in accordance with sastric principles. As already stated, the use of ritviks without the guru’s physical presence on the planet does not violate any sastric principle. Srila Prabhupada’s books contain all essential sastric principles, and since there is no mention in his books of the guru needing to be on the planet at the time of initiation, it cannot be a principle. Thus the historical precedent of continuing to use ritviks after his departure can only be a change in detail, not in principle. [32] The above passage also conveys a ritvikist version of the Lutheran doctrine of sola scriptura, “by scripture alone.” Ritvikists reject the use of references from previous acharyas wherever they oppose ritvikist doctrines. Desai rhetorically asks, “What is wrong in consulting previous acaryas?” and then answers, “Nothing, as long as we do not attempt to use them to add new principles which were not mentioned by our own acarya.”[33] As with sola scriptura, with ritvikism it is by the corpus of Srila Prabhupada’s instructions alone. A key difference between a traditionalist and a ritvikist is that although both prefer a literalist reading of Srila Prabhupada’s statements, the traditionalist sees Srila Prabhupada as the representative of an unbroken tradition whereas the ritvikist sees Srila Prabhupada as the founder of a new tradition. The traditionalist sees time, place, and circumstance adjustments as temporary measures on the way to reestablishing the unbroken tradition they believe Srila Prabhupada represents. Ritvikists, however, see time, place, and circumstance adjustments made by Srila Prabhupada as if they were set in stone—changeable only by Srila Prabhupada and inviolable for the rest. For the ritvikist, Srila Prabhupada’s time, place, and circumstance adjustments are the new way of doing things and always will be for the faithful disciple. Given the Protestant character of ISKCON’s Anglo-American cultural roots, ritvikism’s striking resemblance to Protestant Christianity has been more of a likelihood than a coincidence. In terms of ideology and culture, Ritvikism is ISKCON’s version of Protestant “low church” evangelical Christianity. The ritvikists are ISKCON’s Pentecostals and Southern Baptists, and it was perhaps inevitable that ISKCON would eventually have them. Oddly enough, ritvikism’s reliance on a utilitarian notion of time, place, and circumstance ideologically aligns ritvikists with ISKCON’s pragmatist and socially progressive status quo—the differences between them being more in attitude than in patterns of thought. The slight differences between them may make reconciliation something that could happen sooner than expected, though not necessarily in ways either group may be able to presently imagine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AncientMariner Posted February 27, 2008 Report Share Posted February 27, 2008 Thanks to God there're scholars who explain what is wrong and right like HG Sriman Krishna-kirti prabhu, editor of the Hare Krishna Cultural Journal. Although it seems in order to enforce his logic he felt kind of desperate to make use of the bag of tricks to consider Vaishnavas as on a par with followers of mleccha religions. Excerpt from ISKCON Constitution Essay Submitted by krishna-kirti on Thu, 02/14/2008 - 23:54. This is an excerpt from my ISKCON Constitution Essay: Ritvikism’s Western Cultural Roots Ritvikism is Protestant ISKCON-ianity. It is, after all, a protest movement. It defines itself in terms of reform, much as how, for example, some Lutheran denominations see themselves as working towards future reconciliation with the Roman Catholic Church. Whether ritvikists are affiliated with the politically successful IRM (ISKCON Revival Movement) or remain apart from it, they all prefer a “literalist” reading of Srila Prabhupada’s statements. Being a literalist does not mean the literalist always accepts the literal, or direct, meaning of any particular passage and rejects all other understandings. When there is some conflict between one or more authoritative passages, the literalist will proffer indirect meanings instead of literal meanings. Yet their preference is for the literal meaning of any particular statement Srila Prabhupada made. Because of their literalism, ritvikists are squarely in the conservative camp. Yet although ritvikists are conservative, they are not traditionalist. Like many evangelistic, “low church” denominations, ritvikists eschew tradition, or they at least maintain a utilitarian view of it. In modern ritvikism’s foundational manifesto, The Final Order, Krishnakant Desai makes this statement [bolding in original]: It is a distinguishing feature of acaryas in our line that, practically without exception, they set their own historical precedents. As acaryas, it is their prerogative to do this; albeit in accordance with sastric principles. As already stated, the use of ritviks without the guru’s physical presence on the planet does not violate any sastric principle. Srila Prabhupada’s books contain all essential sastric principles, and since there is no mention in his books of the guru needing to be on the planet at the time of initiation, it cannot be a principle. Thus the historical precedent of continuing to use ritviks after his departure can only be a change in detail, not in principle. [32] The above passage also conveys a ritvikist version of the Lutheran doctrine of sola scriptura, “by scripture alone.” Ritvikists reject the use of references from previous acharyas wherever they oppose ritvikist doctrines. Desai rhetorically asks, “What is wrong in consulting previous acaryas?” and then answers, “Nothing, as long as we do not attempt to use them to add new principles which were not mentioned by our own acarya.”[33] As with sola scriptura, with ritvikism it is by the corpus of Srila Prabhupada’s instructions alone. A key difference between a traditionalist and a ritvikist is that although both prefer a literalist reading of Srila Prabhupada’s statements, the traditionalist sees Srila Prabhupada as the representative of an unbroken tradition whereas the ritvikist sees Srila Prabhupada as the founder of a new tradition. The traditionalist sees time, place, and circumstance adjustments as temporary measures on the way to reestablishing the unbroken tradition they believe Srila Prabhupada represents. Ritvikists, however, see time, place, and circumstance adjustments made by Srila Prabhupada as if they were set in stone—changeable only by Srila Prabhupada and inviolable for the rest. For the ritvikist, Srila Prabhupada’s time, place, and circumstance adjustments are the new way of doing things and always will be for the faithful disciple. Given the Protestant character of ISKCON’s Anglo-American cultural roots, ritvikism’s striking resemblance to Protestant Christianity has been more of a likelihood than a coincidence. In terms of ideology and culture, Ritvikism is ISKCON’s version of Protestant “low church” evangelical Christianity. The ritvikists are ISKCON’s Pentecostals and Southern Baptists, and it was perhaps inevitable that ISKCON would eventually have them. Oddly enough, ritvikism’s reliance on a utilitarian notion of time, place, and circumstance ideologically aligns ritvikists with ISKCON’s pragmatist and socially progressive status quo—the differences between them being more in attitude than in patterns of thought. The slight differences between them may make reconciliation something that could happen sooner than expected, though not necessarily in ways either group may be able to presently imagine. Don't care about all that. All I wanna know is which camp is going to burn in eternal Vaisnava hell incarnating as ants and termites etc. and which one is gonna be liberated and become blue like Krishna? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted February 27, 2008 Report Share Posted February 27, 2008 Don't care about all that. All I wanna know is which camp is going to burn in eternal Vaisnava hell incarnating as ants and termites etc. and which one is gonna be liberated and become blue like Krishna? You'll only know by your own sukrti, unless you get some special krpa or mercy. We can all try to anylize it until we are blue in the face, to no avail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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