Bipolar Hare Krishna

[suchandra]

Devotee below is asking this question, now since “a devotee is always sane”, where comes the question of “bipolar Hare Krsna”? And: "As the scriptures declare, the devotee is more than Brahma, he is more than Siva, he is more than Laksmi. "

 

 

 

Bipolar Hare Krishna

 

http://bpbabble.com/clayton/?p=10

posted, February 12th, 2008 at 1:30 am

 

yato yato nischalati manas cancalam asthiram/ tatas tato niyamyaitad, atmani eva vasham nayet

 

From wherever the mind wanders due to its flickering and unsteady nature, one must certainly withdraw it and bring it back under the control of the self.

 

purport by HDG A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

 

The nature of the mind is flickering and unsteady. But a self-realized yogi has to control the mind, the mind should not control him. One who controls the mind (and therefore the senses as well) is called gosvami, or svami, and one who is controlled by the mind is called go-dasa, or the servent of the senses. A gosvami knows the standard of sense happiness. In transcendental sense happiness, the senses are engaged in the service of Hrsikesha, or the supreme owner of the senses–Krishna. Serving Krsna with purified senses is called Krsna consciousness. That is the way of bringing the senses under full control. What is more, that is the highest perfection of yoga practice.

Srila Prabhupada ki jai!

 

When I first became familiar with this verse, I thought it advocated circular logic. One person was quite horrified that I would use circular logic; he refused to talk to me anymore. but it is a means of bringing the mind back to the topic of the self, wherever it wanders. There is quite a lot of circular logic in the topic of religion. But I am not going to talk about logic–I will talk about myself and about how to become a yogi and a sannyas by following Lord Krsna’s instructions in the verse above. As the scriptures declare, the devotee is more than Brahma, he is more than Siva, he is more than Laksmi. Lord Krsna gave this statement to Uddhava, that the devotee is more than the Lord’s own self. And yet, Krishnadas Kaviraj famously described himself as “lower than a worm in stool”.

I do not entirely understand this extreme humility–on the one hand, we are told by society to have “high self-esteem”, on the other, our religious guides tell us to consider ourselves the “most fallen”–what is the reality? I know of one individual who was proclaiming himself the “most fallen” and the response was that he wasnt the “most” anything! I also, do not see that I am the “most” anything. I carry out some of the principles of Krsna consciousness to my capacity, and I do not consider myself very good, or very bad–I am in the mix, and therefore I think pretty well of myself. I take it that this is all a mistake–I should consider myself the “most fallen”, but I dont “get it”.

“Serving Krsna with purified senses is called Krsna consciousness.” Prabhupada has explained that the senses are covered with matter–matter means the idea that I am this body, and that everything here is meant for me. The senses are purified by being engaged in the Lord’s service–then they become spiritual senses and they can see spiritually. A great problem for the senses is sex enjoyment–young and old are involved in this–only by Krsna consciousness can this propensity be overcome. When the sastras speak of sense enjoyment, this is the primary meaning. The primary characteristic of the yogi is his cessation from sex life. So how can we take up such a difficult and demanding discipline of life? Why dont we simply rely on Jesus and live pretty much as we please?

Speaking personally, I do rely on Jesus, but I live as a devotee and a yogi–Jesus is my diksha guru and Prabhupada is my siksha guru, and what he has given. I want to practice. I do not make difference between them. Diksha means he makes the connection with the spiritual world, and siksha means he gives instructions to make the connection more sound and complete. The guru is one.

Now since “a devotee is always sane”, where comes the question of “bipolar Hare Krsna” like it says on my masthead? I cannot deny my position–and there are others, bipolar, schizophrenic, who are devotees–the resolution is that we accept the basic definition of KC sanity, namely that “I am not the Lord”. This is very important statement. right after, “I am spirit soul”–our sanity may not always be with us. but if we can hold unto the truth of these two statements, we have basic sanity, unlike the World, which is thoroughly crazy place.

‘To name something is to gain power over it” (old magickal principle) This is the origin of the long lists of angels, demons, and spirits characterizing classical magick. The modern version is the DSM (Diagnostic Statistical Manual), a catalog of mental illnesses, or demons. I met a schizophrenic guy who said he wanted to practice ritual magick–I told him he had enough demons running around in his brain as it was! I dont know if he listened to me or not–I hope he did. Anyhow, it is stated several times in Gita 6 that the mind is restless and unsteady, and it is more productive to try to control it than to be building Circles and laying out Barbarous Names. The mind itself is the Circle, and maintaining it is the process of remembrance. When the mind “goes out” it must be brought back under the control of the self–that is the system for the yogi. But in KC, there is no opportunity for the mind to “go out”–he is fully engaged, his life is devoted to the service of the Supreme, so he does not go out in that way. At least, that is the ideal.

You will find many ideals in KC–many “shoulds”. Whether one can actually navigate all those “shoulds”–that is a function of our love for the spiritual master. In many ways, it is like Platonic Idealism–there is an Ideal World, and the things of this world are a “perverted reflection” of it. There is an ideal for everything–the ideal brahmacari, the ideal householder, the ideal wife, and one is to follow these ideals, although they are often far from the actual situation. Krsna also cites Janaka Maharaj (the father of Sita) as an ideal. Janaka was a rajarshi, a sage among the kings, so his example is given in the Gita. What are we to do with all these ideals?

For a little of my history, I was a Marxist, and an admirer of Jean Paul Sartre. In none of these places will you find any idealism–here we find not only the Ideal, but the Real, Hegel said, “Reality is by itself and for itself”.This statement was taken up by Srila Guru Maharaj, who considered it very useful to the Vaishnavas. “By itself”–Krsna is not like anything else, and “for itself” He is for His own purpose, not our lesser purposes. Actually, I was not so conducted by Marxism as I was by the Theosophical Society, which is another godless group–they are utterly opposed to the Personal God, Who of course, we are preaching as the Ultimate Goal–uttama, in Sanscrit, means ultimate in English–that is a cognate. But my environment was that of conservative Christianity, and I would grasp at any straw to get away from it!—and some people eat it up! It is the same with Catholic schools–a lot of athiests come out of the Catholic school experience, but some eat it up. I have no objection to indoctrinating children to one’s particular cult—I think belonging to something is better than not, and these things can come in handy later in life–particularly if you got some instruction in the Bible. But none of this is equal to the potency of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. They do not know the goal of religiousity—there are many ways of being religious, but unless one comes to Krsna prem, it is no better than anything else–it is firing blanks at a ghost. We should remember the purpose for which we have come–do we want relief from sinful activities, do we want Heaven, or do we just want to serve? The Godhead is so great, so magnanimous, so kind, that we just want any place that we may render some service to Him and His Abode? Or do we just want His Friendship? Or do we want Him as our child? Or do we want the position of a Consort–wife or girlfriend?

 

 

All these things are possible–the Spiritual World is much broader than the material world–the possibilities are infinite. And all these possibilities are actualized when one becomes a goswami. Srila Prabhupada has translated and commented on a book by Rupa Goswami, entitled Nectar of Instruction. By foollowing this book, we can become perfect goswamis–so if our ambition follows this road, we should get and study this book.

And study of the Vedas is “not meant for armchair speculators” it is meant for the formation of character. I am 61, and my character is established–I am not likely to learn new habits like a 19 year old–but the process is the same–to hear from authorities. The KC movement is described by its fellow religionists in the Vedic fold as conservative–yet it presents a revolutionary agenda. It is this quality which attracted me–I was not into the status quo, and that was the hidden agenda of all the Christers I heard preaching–it was Mom, apple pie,and the flag–there was a nationalist quality to it, and I was an internationalist. I took it from the Srimad Bhagavatam that this message is to cause a revolution in the misguided lives of this Age and therefore I took it up. Srila Prabhupada says, if Marx could go so far with dry philosophy only, think how far we can go with all we have to offer.

Meditation has been very popular for the past 30 years or so–anybody and everybody is lining their pockets by “teaching meditation”. The most eye-opening teaching on meditation which I recieved was from a professional reciter and guru named Sant Keshavadas. He taught me that as long as one keeps one’s mind in the general area of the object, one is meditating. I had thought that one has to “concentrate the mind on one point”, and that is nearly impossible. That would mean to meditate on Vishnu’s Feet is too general–one must meditate on His left big toenail. Actually to meditate with the HNs is superior to all kinds of visual meditations–there is no price for recieving the HNs becauseThey are beyond priceless–we cannot put a price on Them which would not be an insult. We are not told to visualize anything while chanting–simply chant and hear. This is an authorized process, and it helps to make a revolution.

There is a great deal to be said for following the authorities. Of course, there is “thinking for oneself”. This is not a blind following process–”inquiries” are encouraged, provided they are not made in a challenging spirit. “thinking for oneself” does not reach to this terrain–we are going back Home, and the way is not always clear, and we cannot out-think the Guide. There are the qualifications: Pranipat, pariprashna, seva, and by this process we can attain transcendental knowledge, and, perhaps, bhakti. It is very rare to find a pure bhakta in this world, who gives Krsna prema freely to everyone, but such a person was our Ever Well-wisher. HDG A.C.Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. His glories are proclaimed in a little booklet called the 26 Beautiful Qualities, by Ajitananda das.

Today is the appearance day of Vishnupriya–she was the second wife of Mahaprabhu, and He left her behind to take sannyas, although there was no fault in her. Thereafter she led a life of penance.

It is also the appearance day of Pundarika Vidhyanidhi–he was much loved by Mahaprabhu–he was well-off, and lived, apparently, a luxurious life. In Krsna lila, he was the father of Radharani. Gadhadhar Pandit, on first being introduced to him, did not think that he could be a Vaishnava–but he was proven wrong.

It is also the appearance day of Raghunath das Goswami–his parents were extremely wealthy, but he “wanted to become a street beggar”. Lord Chaitanya told him to curb his enthusiasm and “not be a crazy guy”. He followed the Lord’s instructions and ended by becoming the model for renunciation and the principles of the renounced order.

Let all these great souls bless us. They are swimming and diving in the Ocean of Bliss, of which we desire only a drop. I have by no means done justice to their stories. Navadwip is Vrndaban, except with magnanimity added.

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[Jahnava Nitai Das]

I have known enough bi-polar, schizophrenic, and "crazy" devotees over the years. It is a medical condition which could be due to any number of causes. There is no reason to think that neophyte devotees should be beyond disease (mental or physical). Just as we all suffer from colds and flus, some of us will suffer from mental diseases as well.

[theist]

I know Clayton ,the writer of the article, but haven't seen him for years. He is a long time devotee with a strong measure of sincerity. As one can see from his post he is a very intelligent fellow. He loses it when he neglects his meds which I have only seen once.

 

The question of mental illness via brain deterioration is an interesting one that is uncomfortable to contemplate. Alzheimers for example. Amyloid-plaque build up destroying the neurons in the brain and one progressively gets worse losing it altogether along the way.

 

Is there some reason why this could not happen to someone who is guru to another? And what is the disciples position then?

 

I have often wondered about this. This may not be the proper forum for such a discussion however.

[suchandra]

 

He is a long time devotee with a strong measure of sincerity.

When it comes to devotees, this seems to be the only right understanding, how much someone is sincerely believing in Krishna. Prabhupada always said, my father was a pure devotee ("My father was a pure Vaiṣṇava. From my childhood, he gave me Rādhā-Krishna Deity for worshiping".) However, according present GBC mentality they would have told such a great Vaishnava like Prabhupada's father to leave ISKCON for good.

 

Prabhupāda: "Yes, up to one o’clock, two o’clock, he was engaged only with his pūjā, my father. He was going late, at twelve o’clock, to bed. Then he was to… He used to rise little late, at about seven, eight. Then taking bath, sometimes purchasing. Then from ten o’clock to one o’clock he was engaged in pūjā. Then he would take his lunch and go to business. And in the business shop he was taking little rest for one hour. And he’d come from business at ten o’clock at night, and then again pūjā. Regularly. Actually his business was pūjā."

 

Room Conversation

with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

February 18, 1977, Māyāpura770218r4.may

http://causelessmercy.com/t/t/770218r4.may.htm

Darshan Radha Madan Mohan

 

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[suchandra]

 

The question of mental illness via brain deterioration is an interesting one that is uncomfortable to contemplate. Alzheimers for example. Amyloid-plaque build up destroying the neurons in the brain and one progressively gets worse losing it altogether along the way.

 

 

Looks like also spiritual advanced persons can get this disease.

 

"Not only European philosophers, another philosopher in India, Dr. Radhakrishnan, he is now brain paralyzed."

 

Bhagavad-gītā 2.25

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

London, August 28, 1973

730828BG.LON

 

 

 

http://causelessmercy.com/t/t/730828BG.LON.htm?i=1973

[sopatel]

 

Looks like also spiritual advanced persons can get this disease.

 

"Not only European philosophers, another philosopher in India, Dr. Radhakrishnan, he is now brain paralyzed.

 

But the question is, if you are spititually advanced, does it matter what your physical body state is...I wonder how advanced souls actually feel about our types saying that they are suffering. Maybe they don't really care and feel that the current state of their being is just a way to pay for past karmas and wipe there karmic chalkboard clean so they may go home. Just wondering, I think it is very interesting to finally be able to reach that point.

 

Jai Shri Krishna

[sopatel]

greatly, greatly appreciate this suchandraji, I thank you.

The following paragraph really hit home...

 

[“O son of Kuntī, declare it boldly that My devotee never perishes.”] Because the spiritual master takes the risk on account of Kṛṣṇa.

Bob: Your suffering is not the same kind of pain…

Śrīla Prabhupāda: No, it is not due to karma. The pain is there sometimes, so that the disciples may know, “Due to our sinful activities, our spiritual master is suffering.”

Bob: You look very well now.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: I am always well… in the sense that even if there is suffering, I know Kṛṣṇa will protect me. But this suffering is not due to my sinful activities.

Bob: But let us say when I—in the town I live in, I take boiled water because some of the water has disease in it. Now, why should I drink boiled water if I have been good enough not to get a disease? Then I may drink any water. And if I have been not acting properly. then I shall get disease anyway.

Śrīla Prabhupāda: So long as you are in the material world, you cannot neglect physical laws. Suppose you go to a jungle and there is a tiger. It is known that it will attack you, so why should you voluntarily go and be attacked? It is not that a devotee should take physical risk so long as he has a physical body. It is not a challenge to the physical laws: “I have become a devotee. I challenge everything.” That is foolishness.

 

I like how he explained that we are not exempt from physical laws and shoudl care for our well being but the perfect devotee really hasn't a care for the world and in fact he has to suffer for the sins we commit.

 

In the end, if you believe you are beyond the physical body, then no disease or illness really makes difference.

 

Thanks once again.

 

Jai Shri Krishna

[theist]

Accepting that the transcendentalist is separate from the condition of his brain still the brain function is used in his communications to us not so transcendentally situated.

 

So the question remains for me, how does one relate to his guru should he come to this situation. Not even the extreme of Alzheimers but what about ordinary dementia?

[suchandra]

 

Accepting that the transcendentalist is separate from the condition of his brain still the brain function is used in his communications to us not so transcendentally situated.

 

So the question remains for me, how does one relate to his guru should he come to this situation. Not even the extreme of Alzheimers but what about ordinary dementia?

If a spiritual master is overpowered by such a disease which attacks the central function of transmitting knowledge, the mind, then how can he be called master? After all, isn't the meaning of master, not to be controlled by something inferior, but to be fully situated in his field of responsibility?

Just like in vedic culture a king who had no eyesight couldn't be king.

 

 

From the beginning, Dhṛtarāṣṭra’s position as king was never legal, for he was blind, and Vedic law ruled that a blind man cannot be king. Thus the throne went to his younger brother Pāṇḍu.

http://causelessmercy.com/t/t/760624bi.nv.htm

 

On the other hand, Mahārāja Kulaśekhara in his prayer was fully aware about this problem of senile decay and things getting out of control.

 

"Mahārāja Kulaśekhara, a great devotee, prays, "My dear Lord, just now I am quite healthy, and it is better that I die immediately so that the swan of my mind can seek entrance at the stem of Your lotus feet." The metaphor is used because the swan, a bird of the water, takes pleasure in digging into the lotus flowers; its sporting proclivity is to enter the lotus flower. Mahārāja Kulaśekhara says to the Lord, "Now my mind is undisturbed, and I am quite healthy. If I die immediately, thinking of Your lotus feet, then I am sure that my performance of Your devotional service will become perfect. But if I have to wait for my natural death, then I do not know what will happen, because at that time the bodily functions will be disrupted, my throat will be choked up, and I do not know whether I shall be able to chant Your name. Better let me die immediately." Arjuna questions how a person can fix his mind on Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet at such a time."

BG 8.2

[theist]

 

If a spiritual master is overpowered by such a disease which attacks the central function of transmitting knowledge, the mind, then how can he be called master? After all, isn't the meaning of master, not to be controlled by something inferior, but to be fully situated in his field of responsibility?

Just like in vedic culture a king who had no eyesight couldn't be king.

 

 

Yes but the scenario I am bringing up is one where the guru disciple relationship is develope before and such problems arise in the brain of the guru.

 

The spiritual master who is actually situated transcendentally would not be controlled by any disease affecting his brain anymore than he would by beeing cripped or blind. What would be impaired is his process of relating to the things of this world. I am sure that a transcendentalist could still reveal himself to individuals in subtler ways then by speech or writing but how could his lectures and ordinary instructions given through the demented impaired brain be consider authoritative any longer.

 

While not a perfect example we in the US experienced this with Ronald Reagon whose Alzheimers began to become noticable will he was still in office.

 

It's possible situatons like this that steer me to the idea of seeing Caitya-guru as ones main guru and all other Gurus as His manifestations which may not always be available to us.

[suchandra]

 

While not a perfect example we in the US experienced this with Ronald Reagon whose Alzheimers began to become noticable will he was still in office.

 

It's possible situatons like this that steer me to the idea of seeing Caitya-guru as ones main guru and all other Gurus as His manifestations which may not always be available to us.

 

Yes, Alzheimer's seems to be widely spread and doctors are really confused what to do. People with Alzheimer's ordinarily lose their short-term memory first. But their long-term memory may remain active for many years after that.

When looking more close, it is a gradual systematic shutting down of the brain's functions. A medical specialist compared it with a controlled removal of pillars out of a building in such a way that the building doesnt collapse back upon itself for a long time. In fact he spoke like he felt that the progression of Alzheimer's is not accidential. In other words, Vaishnavas should definately preach that it is a psychosomatic disease. Nature has given this valuable human form and when using it for illusions, sinful living and things which can be better done in other species, material nature is withdrawing the facilities. Can this happen to Vaishnavas? No, Vaishnavas cannot get this. In the European Union, there are around 5 million people with dementia, of whom 60 - 70 percent are Alzheimer's patients. Around 4.5 million Alzheimer's patients live in the United States.

 

 

It's possible situations like this that steer me to the idea of seeing Caitya-guru as ones main guru and all other Gurus as His manifestations which may not always be available to us.

 

Could be that this was also Prabhupada's idea. There're already so many, many problems to be solved for present Vaishnavas - why also have the problem of failing gurus?

This was surely not Prabhupada's idea to come to the West and install a questionable system of failing and inefficient spiritual masters.

[theist]

 

Yes, Alzheimer's seems to be widely spread and doctors are really confused what to do. People with Alzheimer's ordinarily lose their short-term memory first. But their long-term memory may remain active for many years after that.

When looking more close, it is a gradual systematic shutting down of the brain's functions. A medical specialist compared it with a controlled removal of pillars out of a building in such a way that the building doesnt collapse back upon itself for a long time. In fact he spoke like he felt that the progression of Alzheimer's is not accidential. In other words, Vaishnavas should definately preach that it is a psychosomatic disease. Nature has given this valuable human form and when using it for illusions, sinful living and things which can be better done in other species, material nature is withdrawing the facilities. Can this happen to Vaishnavas? No, Vaishnavas cannot get this. In the European Union, there are around 5 million people with dementia, of whom 60 - 70 percent are Alzheimer's patients. Around 4.5 million Alzheimer's patients live in the United States.

Not so sure vaisnavas have an automatic immunity. They are not exempt from the tribulations of other diseases.

 

 

 

 

Could be that this was also Prabhupada's idea. There're already so many, many problems to be solved for present Vaishnavas - why also have the problem of failing gurus?

This was surely not Prabhupada's idea to come to the West and install a questionable system of failing and inefficient spiritual masters.

Yes it is clear to me that in Prabhupada's teachings that Caitya-guru reveals to the sincere aspirant who His representative is. This is what is meant by self-effulgent. The ability to perceive that effulgence is granted to the aspirant by the grace of Caitya-guru "I give you divine eyes Arjuna".

 

Krsna is self revealing and guru is a manifestation of Krsna. Ecclesiastical systems are by nature faithless. Such a system says that either Krsna does not really exist so He can't reveal His devotee or if He exists we can't have faith that he will reveal His devotee therefore we must step in with our system to keep the parampara function. "It's up to us". Faithless.

[AncientMariner]

This is a cool quote:

 

Bob: What would the best devotee be doing?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: The best devotee does not preach.

Bob: What does he do?

Śrīla Prabhupāda: He sees that there is no need of preaching. For him, everyone is a devotee. [bob laughs heartily] Yes, he sees no more nondevotees—all devotees. He is called an uttama-adhikārī. But while I am preaching, how can I say I am the best devotee? Just like Rādhārāṇī—She does not see anyone as a nondevotee. Therefore we try to approach Rādhārāṇī.

[Beggar]

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Arrival Lecture

Dallas, March 3, 1975

"Therefore I am very much indebted to my father, and I have dedicated my book, Krsna book, to him. He wanted this. He wanted me to be preacher of Bhagavata, Srimad-Bhagavatam, and player of mrdanga and to become servant of Radharani."

 

The Service Of Sri Radha

http://www.mandala.com.au/articles/radhadasyam.htm

Srila B. R. Sridhar Maharaj:

Once, the Diwan of Bharatpur had come on a pilgrimage with his family to the holiest of places, Sri Radha-kunda, the holy lake of Srimati Radharani. He and his family were circumambulating Radha-kunda. They would fall flat on the ground, offering obeisances lying down with their arms outstretched. Every time they bowed down in this way, they would mark the spot where their fingertips touched the earth. Then they would slowly rise, step forward to where that spot had been marked, and again fall flat, offering their obeisances with great respect and adoration. In this way they were circumambulating the entire Radha-kunda. Upon seeing such intense worship, Paramananda Prabhu, an intimate disciple of our guru maharaja Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura, intimated to Prabhupada that the Diwan and his family must have great respect for Radharani to circumambulate the Radha-kunda in such a fashion.

At that time Prabhupada said, "Their angle of vision towards Radha-kunda and Radharani is different from ours. They recognize and revere Krsna. And because Radharani is Krsna's favorite, they also have some reverence for Radha-kunda. But our vision is just the opposite. Our concern is with Radharani. And only because She wants Krsna do we have any connection with Him."

And so, the Gaudiya Vaisnavas know only Radharani. They are concerned only with Her, and Her duties, Her necessities. They are ready to serve Her in all respects, and cannot contemplate any service without Her. That is the highest achievement of the Gaudiya Vaisnavas, that is the special feature of Mahaprabhu's party...