dreams?

[lokeshvara]

namaste everyone

 

it's been a few weeks since i have had the chance to chat and i hope everyone is well.

 

i am starting this new topic to get your thoughts. what is the vaisnava stance on dreams? are they meaningful, important, or perhaps should be cast aside as being more maya? what are your thoughts?

 

love and blessings.

[Sarva gattah]

Question In Swami B.R. Sridhara Maharaja's book Subjective Evolution of Consciousness, it says that although the characters in Bhaktivinoda Thakura's book Jaiva Dharma are apparently imaginary, they actually exist somewhere within the universal mind.

Does this mean that dreams and visions are in some way a reality?

 

Does this also mean that through spiritual practice (sadhana) we can perceive true spiritual reality in regards to the universal mind of God?

Answer. In the first chapter of Subjective Evolution, Pujyapada Sridhara Maharaja makes a passing reference to the characters in Bhaktivinoda Thakura's book Jaiva Dharma. Therein he says that perhaps they appeared in another day of Brahma.

In chapter 6 he also says that the characters are real and that what appears to one person at some point as his or her imagination appears as a concrete reality at another point in time.

 

Furthermore, he concludes that all so-called imagination is a concrete reality from the perspective of the universal mind.

Elsewhere when addressing this question, Sridhara Maharaja replied that whatever appears in the mind of a suddha-bhakta (pure devotee) is reality. Thus he was of the opinion that the characters of Jaiva Dharma were in some way real.

Regardless, the fact is that these characters usher us into the spiritual realm that exists far beyond the mythic world of the mind. Thus it is correct to say that sadhana, or spiritual practice, gradually grants us access to the mind of God.

What is reality in the mind of God? This is the important question, one that is well addressed Jaiva Dharma, a treatise that clearly defines the eternal relationship between the soul and the Supreme Soul.

Otherwise, the subject of dreams is addressed in the sutras of Vyasa (3.2.1-5), wherein it is written that dream consciousness (svapna) is the sandhya, or junction, between the waking state (jagrata) and deep dreamless sleep (susupti).

In his commentary on the sutras, the venerable Baladeva Vidyabhusana explains that the figures appearing in dreams are created by God to distribute the results of minor good and evil acts one has previously performed.

Sri Ramanujacarya confirms this in his Sri Bhasya commentary on Vedanta-sutra, wherein he writes, "The things seen by an individual soul in its dreams are specially created by the supreme person, and are meant by him to be a retribution—whether reward or punishment—for deeds of minor importance: they therefore last for the time of the dream only, and are perceived by that one soul only."

In his Srimad-Bhagavatam commentary, Srila Prabhupada talks about this as follows: "Because of sinful activities, at night we have bad dreams, which are very troublesome. Indeed, Maharaja Yudhisthira was obliged to see hell because of a slight deviation from devotional service to the Lord. Therefore, dursvapna—bad dreams—occur because of sinful activities.

 

A devotee sometimes accepts a sinful person as his disciple, and to counteract the sinful reactions he accepts from the disciple, he has to see a bad dream."

Baladeva Vidyabhusana also states in his commentary that dreams are as real as that experienced in the waking state. He cites as evidence the fact that sometimes solutions to medical problems are found in dreams, mantras are passed on in dreams, and objects seen in dreams are sometimes later seen in the waking state. Furthermore, he says that dreams often foretell of future events and that those who know how to read them can sometimes predict the future.

The verdict according to the sutras, and the great acaryas who have commented on them, is that we are not the ultimate creator of our dreams. God is the creator of dreams and the controller of the law of karma; dreams being one way in which we play out our karma. Moreover, dreams are sometimes divine in that they can be an intervention that transcends karma, although such dreams are very rare. Of course, dreaming about Sri Guru is always auspicious.

However, Sri Baladeva Vidyabhusana's comments do not address in depth the myriad of issues regarding human psychology and the nature of dreams.

As an expression of one's karma, dreams are usually the result of one's preoccupation during the waking state. Therefore, Srila Prabhupada generally discounted the significance of people's dreams, including those of his disciples.

In his Krsna book he writes, "This body is exactly like one of the bodies which we always see in dreams. During our dream of sleep, we create so many bodies according to mental creation. We have seen gold, and we have also seen a mountain, so in a dream we can see a golden mountain by combining the two ideas.

Sometimes in dreams we see that we have a body, which is flying in the sky, and at that time we completely forget our present body. Similarly, these bodies are changing. When you have one body, you forget the past body. During a dream, we may make contact with so many new kinds of bodies, but when we are awake we forget them all. And actually these material bodies are the creations of our mental activities. But at the present moment we do not recollect our past bodies."

Interestingly, the famous Swiss psychiatrist Carl Jung studied dreams and theorized on the connection between dreams and spirituality. Through his influence, Wolfgang Pauli, the great quantum physicist who went to Jung for treatment of depression, also took dreams very seriously.

In collaboration with Jung, Pauli sought to bridge the gap between matter and spirit through scientific means. Referring to Plato, they felt that this gap could only be bridged through the application of Eros, or "intense yearning for spirit," and not just with a dispassionate objective search.

In their view a philosopher should have the same passion for truth as a lover has for his or her beloved. Eros, according to Plato, is necessary to get to the transcendental realm of essences beyond time and space. In its fullest expression, Plato's Eros is the conjugal union between the soul and the absolute, which is the sum of all transcendent qualities like beauty, goodness, etc.

Jung and Pauli were likely referring to a transcendent ideal akin to what we discuss as impersonal realization. However, Plato's idea of Eros could also be seen as corresponding to the Gaudiya concept of lobha, or sacred greed, which is the qualification for embarking on the path of spontaneous devotion—raganuga-bhakti.

In the Gaudiya view, the absolute is Krsna, who is the repository of all transcendent qualities. Love of Krsna is most fully expressed in the person of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. He is the embodiment of conjugal love of God and through devotion to him we can share in his experience of divine truth, beauty, and love.

[lokeshvara]

thank you Sarva for the explanation. if i am understanding this correctly, dreams then are not merely a biological function but have a connection with the divine. some parts of the mind of God can be encountered in certain dreams. No matter what though dreams come from God as a result of karma. is this accurate or am i way off base here?

 

if dreams come from God does he pick which images and senerios to send or is it more like he is providing the foundation for particular karmas to come to fruition?

[Avinash]

It is important to first clarify what is reality. I can see my a book on the table in front of me. Does the book really exist or is it my illusion? If somebody asks me, I will say "Of course, it exists."

But how am I so sure? Why can't it be illusion? Now that I mentioned illusion, let me take a typical example of illusion. Sometimes in the dark, I feel that there is somebody else in the room. No matter how long I look in that direction, I feel that there is somebody. I switch on lights and I find that I am alone in the room. That other person was my illusion. There was some object and in dark, I mistook it as a person.

But it is important to keep in mind that before switching on the lights, I really thought that it was another person. That is what my senses told me. Switching on lights proved that my senses had not given me correct information.

My senses are telling me that there is a book on the table. How can I be so sure that this time, it is not an illusion?

[indulekhadasi]

 

It is important to first clarify what is reality. I can see my a book on the table in front of me. Does the book really exist or is it my illusion? If somebody asks me, I will say "Of course, it exists."

But how am I so sure? Why can't it be illusion? Now that I mentioned illusion, let me take a typical example of illusion. Sometimes in the dark, I feel that there is somebody else in the room. No matter how long I look in that direction, I feel that there is somebody. I switch on lights and I find that I am alone in the room. That other person was my illusion. There was some object and in dark, I mistook it as a person.

But it is important to keep in mind that before switching on the lights, I really thought that it was another person. That is what my senses told me. Switching on lights proved that my senses had not given me correct information.

My senses are telling me that there is a book on the table. How can I be so sure that this time, it is not an illusion?

 

Another example of illusion- when we are in a car and we are driving fast sometimes when we look out the window it appears we are going backwards.

 

Since we have taken birth in the material world our senses are bound to be faulty.

 

Regarding dreams- bad dreams are some form of bad karma presenting itself, good dreams is a result of good karma, if you have dreams of Krishna or Guru there are two possible reasons: 1) You are a pure devotee and Krishna is directly communicating with you or 2) You are not a pure devotee but it is a sign showing that you are progressing in spiritual life (to give a person encouragement, not that the Lord or Guru actually appeared).

 

Hare Krishna and Jai Nitai

indulekhadasi

[lokeshvara]

thank you both for the replies. i am in agreement with the sentiments about illusion vs. reality.

 

Indulekhadasi, you mention dreams about Krishna or the Guru from the perspective that the dreamer is some form of devotee, either pure or not yet pure. what about those who dream of such things who are not devotees?

 

love and blessings

[Redsox]

 

It is important to first clarify what is reality. I can see my a book on the table in front of me. Does the book really exist or is it my illusion? If somebody asks me, I will say "Of course, it exists."

But how am I so sure? Why can't it be illusion? Now that I mentioned illusion, let me take a typical example of illusion. Sometimes in the dark, I feel that there is somebody else in the room. No matter how long I look in that direction, I feel that there is somebody. I switch on lights and I find that I am alone in the room. That other person was my illusion. There was some object and in dark, I mistook it as a person.

But it is important to keep in mind that before switching on the lights, I really thought that it was another person. That is what my senses told me. Switching on lights proved that my senses had not given me correct information.

My senses are telling me that there is a book on the table. How can I be so sure that this time, it is not an illusion?

 

If two people have schizophrenia and they "see" the same illusions. Then lets say they are both stranded in the middle of an ocean, they keep seeing things in water, then are those things illusions or are they reality?

 

In your earlier example with the book, you confirm whether it is an illusion or not with another person, and by doing so you claim that your book on the table is not an illusion. Then, lets say both of you are just seeing the same person when the lights are off... and you being in India your electricity is cut off, then does that make the illusion of the person- an objective truth?

[mahak]

great topic, everly brothers stuff (eh gHari), but alas, im time disfunctional right now. If we dont get wierd, this topic will last awhile.

 

I like the dreams that happen while fully awake, like my story of Mgabe posted recently on the topic titled Uddhava Gita discussion.

 

I really like the traumatic dreams of me gettin swallowed up by molten lava or having a shotgun going off in my face in an innercity gang war. Or the ones that are serial dreams that continue occasionally for years and tears. Or the flying around and my obsessive disturbance of getting tangled up in hot wires (like my wonderful billygoat Sugar with his leash and his desire for the grass just around the next bush, and ties knots even boy scouts couldnt figgure out).

 

Dreams are awesome, and fully confirm my oft expressed conclusion of the reality of simultaneous reality, multiple dimensional physics, etc.

 

Lets talk, and I promise to leave nine ball (sacred geometry) out of it. Even though nine ball oprobably has something to do with dreams as welll.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

 

Only dreamers are allowed.

[theist]

Some dreams are just mind echos of our physical experiences from this life mixed in with impression from past lifes. Prabhupada's example of seeing a mountain and seeing gold and those impressions merging in dream to form a golden mountain.

 

Some dreams reveal deeper pyschological states to someone trained to understand them although my belief is this not a clear cut science and takes a good intuititon on the part of the reader to decipher them. Referrence Jung and his archetypal theory. There is some truth there.

 

Then there are astral experiences which we may have while having an Out of Body Experience (OBE) that we only remember small pieces of and these can be hard to distinquish from ordinary dreams once we are back in our brains.

 

There are also solidly conscious OBE's we know to be genuine other realm experiences and not dreams but because of the nature of he astral realm and it's different laws of reality sound like dreams when we try to relate them to others and even novice travelers have trouble separating them out at first for themselves.

 

Then there are lucid dreams where the dreamer suddenly becomes aware that he is not the dream body he sees in the dream and the characters around him are just projections of his own mind and not real either. He knows he is dreaming in real time.

 

This is also a prelude state to self realization where one realizes he is not the dream body of thoughts and feelings just as he realizes he is not the physical body of molecules in the so-called normal waking state.

 

We have many instances where the Lord has revealed things to someone in dreams. Those revelations not being dreams in the ordinary sense of simple mind function but rather a communication from God or some divine personage (like Guru) to us through the vehicle of our minds and brains while in sleeping state. This communication is actually more in tune with the Reality condition of the Waking state of the soul but is not fully realized as such by us the sleeping souls.

 

Lord Caitanya was being quite literal when He exhorted ,

"Jiv Jago Jiva Jago"

Awaken sleeping souls!"

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

Lord Caitanya was being quite literal when He exhorted ,

"Jiv Jago Jiva Jago"

Awaken sleeping souls!"

 

[indulekhadasi]

 

thank you both for the replies. i am in agreement with the sentiments about illusion vs. reality.

 

Indulekhadasi, you mention dreams about Krishna or the Guru from the perspective that the dreamer is some form of devotee, either pure or not yet pure. what about those who dream of such things who are not devotees?

 

love and blessings

 

It means that the subconscious mind has not been satisfied in engaging in sense gratification and it is looking to be engaged in a higher way (devotional service).

[CCC]

Chapter 14: The Ecstasy of the Lord and His DevoteesBhaktivedanta VedaBase: Teachings of Lord Caitanya

 

 

 

here are two kinds of dresses worn in that relationship of conjugal love, and they are called sambhoga and vipralambha. On the sambhoga platform, the dresses are unlimited, and on the vipralambha they are four in number. The ecstasy exhibited before the lover and beloved meet, the ecstasy experienced between them after meeting, the state of mind experienced by not meeting, and the state of mind experienced after meeting fearing separation are called vipralambha. That vipralambha serves as a nourishing element for future meetings. When the lover and beloved meet all of a sudden and embrace one another, they feel an ecstasy of happiness, and the state of mind they experience in that ecstasy is called sambhoga. According to the situation, sambhoga ecstasy is also known by four names: (1) sańkṣipta, (2) sańkīrṇa, (3) sampanna, (4) samṛddhimān. Such symptoms are also visible during dreams.

[theist]

 

It means that the subconscious mind has not been satisfied in engaging in sense gratification and it is looking to be engaged in a higher way (devotional service).

 

Very insightful.

[shvu]

The concept of real v. unreal has been addressed a long time ago in Indian doctrines. In simple terms the logic is: An experience or understanding is true, until something else comes up that negates its truth.

 

The apparent existence of another person in the room is real or there are two people in the room..until a light is turned on to prove there is no second person after which there is only one person in the room. The earth was flat for thousands of years until it became a globe. America was India until further evidence was found to prove America was different from India.

 

Click on the attached image ([ATTACH]1579[/ATTACH]) for an excellent example of how we can see the same thing in different ways.

 

1. Focus on the moving dot and all dots are pink

2. Look at a point outside the dots and the moving dot will appear green

3. Focus on the + sign and all dots will eventually disappear

 

The same image appears in three different ways depending on how we look it.

 

Cheers

[lokeshvara]

thank you everyone so much for your insightful comments. they have given me alot to think about

 

namaste!