Advaita and Krishna consciousness?

[Redsox]

Realizing that krishna exists everywhere in multitude of forms, actions, beings and seeing that Krishna himself is all these beings + acting through such beings, is this advaita? or is this krishna consciousness?

 

Reason for asking: Vaishnavas say vishnu made this universe like kshoradayaki vishnu... etc. etc.etc.

Advaitans say it is all brahman, made from brahman, by brahman.

 

So, which one is it? is the realization vaishnavism or advaitan realization?

[Beggar]

<center>The Presence of the Lord

 

</center> <center>by Srila Bhakti Raksaka Sridhara Maharaja

 

</center> In the beginning, when I went to the Gaudiya Math, the murti – the Deity of Mahaprabhu – was there in another room. I asked, “this murti is made of what substance, earth or wood?” The devotee attending the Deity told me, “He is Mahaprabhu Himself. Do not try to see wood, earth or anything else. Mahaprabhu Himself is present there.” So I, questioned them further, “If Mahaprabhu Himself is there, then why is your Guru Maharaja – who is the greatest devotee – upstairs in another room?

If Mahaprabhu Himself would have been present here, then whoever is the highest devotee amongst you should have stayed at His side. But he is staying upstairs in another room and Mahaprabhu is placed in a separate room near the street where everyone can see Him easily. Why your Guru Maharaja is not here by His side if He is Mahaprabhu Himself?”

They replied, “He is also at the side of Mahaprabhu in his heart.” That is the higher conception, a more real conception of Mahaprabhu. Mahaprabhu’s presence is here and also in his heart. This is a higher conception of Mahaprabhu than the Deity conception. He is always enjoying the presence of Mahaprabhu in his heart. Such a devotee is of a higher type.

So, Krsna Consciousness, God Consciousness is like that. It is cin-maya – it is conscious and spiritual. The Lord has manifested Himself in this mundane plane of our sense experience for our benefit. He is not to be neglected. However, this conception, this presence of His grace, is considered to be for the lower section. Yet the Deity should not be considered as an idol. The Deity is also His presence manifested for our gross senses. However, a devotee always sees all things connected to the Lord, the Centre.

 

arcayam eva haraye, pujam yah sraddhayehate

 

na tad-bhaktesu canyesu, sa bhaktah prakrtah smrtah (Srimad Bhagavatam 11.2.47)“When we do not learn to appreciate the presence of the Lord in the heart of His devotees, but only confine ourselves to such symbols connected with Him, our standard of devotion is meagre.”

 

We cannot eliminate the plane of affection and love that we find here and there scattered in different ways. We are to trace the causal existence of everything. What is the unity in the background that is really harmonizing all these scattered experiences? One whose consciousness is raised to such a standard can see the background of everything as one, from one centre. All these creations are handled, controlled and managed form one centre. “Wherever he goes, he is always with My connection. I am not lost to him.” In Srimad Bhagavatam it is said:

sarva-bhutesu yah pasyed, bhagavad-bhavam atmanah

bhutani bhagavaty atmany, esa bhagavatottamah

 

(SB 11.2.45)“One who can see everywhere the connection of the Centre in the background, sees all things correctly. He sees the cause, the connection, the central position, the background, and also his own relationship to the whole in that position.”

 

In any particular experience, there are three things: The deepest root (Sri Krsna), the seer’s connection (Sri Guru), and that which is having the experience of his connection (jivatma). This is in accordance to his position with the Centre and it is also interdependent on his adjustment with that environment. That adjustment is concomitant with his relationship to the Centre. Everything will be considered in relation to the position and desires of the Centre, and not any independent transaction with part and part. It is from the part to the Whole, and from the Whole to the part. ‘What will be my position, my relationship to this part?’ It must be calculated through the Centre, and that will be real. This relationship of, “I and he,” is considered a misconception. This misconception will not remain, as it is unreal. But if it comes through the Centre, then it will be real and we will not be frustrated or disappointed. This sort of measurement or estimation would be one of substance. The part-to-part relationship is unstable. It is truly unreliable and will not remain. However, the connection that comes through the Centre is substantial, real and will not frustrate us.

Philosophy in India means darsana – allow me to see, allow me to experience things – What is what? Our superficial estimation is not the whole conception. We should learn to see things and to know things properly. This is sambandha-jnana. What is our position in the environment? Is the environment real? Why? Is it only our eye experience, ear experience or, something more is in the background – behind everything? How can that be understood – only by our reason? ……….. Never!

Applying our reason to understand the Infinite is futile. Then, how can He be known? The Infinite is not – cannot be by definition – the object of our experience, our inspection. He is far above that. He has got His own responsibility to make known to us His position as the controller of the whole. He sends His agents and His announcements to make us understand that our creation, our sustenance and our destruction is being controlled by Him. We shall try to meet with Him and attain some understanding with that superior power about our own goal of life. Athato brahma jijnasa.

Inquire about the place where you are living. This inquiry must be extensive – not superficial. It should be real. Wherever you are, inquire into your environment, not superficially, but with real attention to understand where you are and who you are. Who is above you? Who is lower than you? Study all these things. This will really be beneficial to your own interest. Otherwise, all your attempts will be useless and perishable. Your treachery is to your own self. The way you are living, that is a treacherous life – towards your own self. Therefore, try to understand things clearly, what is what and then live accordingly.

Ordinary persons cannot give up their livelihood – their everyday duties and necessities – so they miss the association of the higher agents in their daily activities. In daily life, so many duties must be discharged, so many necessities are there for us to procure and so, that is mixed – not unalloyed. Therefore, “Give up these duties and make exclusive inquiry about the environment and its relationship to one’s self. This is jnana.” In the third plane, the practical life in connection with that Infinite is possible. In connection with the Infinite, there is also such a life – so many duties – and that is mixed with the central interest – the deepest interest. Jnana-sunya-bhakti means, “Pursuance and maintenance of duties connecting us with the Centre.”

This is in the eternal position. No death can remove us from there because that is in connection with the Centre. When we are doing some duty, no death can challenge that eternal conduct. In other words, there is the plane of service, and the plane of exploitation, or enjoyment. In the middle is the plane of renunciation, the abscissa – no man’s land – the border of the two planes, brahman and viraja.

We are to study these details. There are five stages: The stage of inquiry, the stage of admission, the stage of temporary duty, the stage of being established in one’s own post of service and then the stage of being harmonized totally with the Centre. These five stages are again subdivided. They pass through such inquiry in eternal life: sraddha (faith), our association with those who are expert in that plane, sadhu-sanga; whatever duties are recommended by Him we are to go on doing, bhajana-kriya; the undesirable things are eliminated wholly, anartha-nivrtti; we get our continued position in divine life.

We then experience the real worth and attraction for that sort of spiritual life, then so many symptoms of divine life descend in our own existence. Gradually, we shall merge into the interest of God and find our true self there in His relationship. Faith is so real that Christ left this life, finished this life playfully, totally forgetful of the interests of this life. Socrates also gave his life for faith. So, faith is something much more substantial than our fleeting desires in the lower life. We are running towards plurality. So many separate interests, many thousands of things are not necessary. Therefore engage your self with the One, connect yourself with the One Centre. Thereafter no more running hither and thither to connect with the unwholesome appeal of this world. The One is sufficient. Connect with the One Centre. Try to find the Centre of all-Knowledge.

When we understand the particular laws of mathematics, then so many sums are automatically done. So, if we get the law – the basic formula in our own hands – then, we have got everything. What is apparently impossible becomes possible. We are to connect ourselves with this sort of understanding – this is the domain of faith proper. When we connect with the All-Controlling Central Point, then we shall be able to know everything that is necessary. If we go to the higher office, then from there we can gather everything about the branch offices. So, inquire about that substance. If we get information from the Centre, then we have information from all the different sub-offices and branches.

All the branches are “controlled” by the All-Controlling Centre. Therefore, we are to connect ourselves with that Centre. We have this necessity: “By knowing Him, we can know everything; by obtaining Him, we can obtain everything.” We will go directly to the Centre. This is the direction – the path to trod – and it is possible. He who thinks it is possible and engages himself in this pursuit – he is sraddhavan. Such a devotee has got sound faith, sraddha. Then his inquisitiveness (of the intellect) is satisfied. The whole substantial, practical life he will also find fully present there; it is not imagination.

Mahaprabhu came to give not only theoretical solution, but to help your whole practical life which will also be benefited by knowing, inquiring and understanding this eternal Truth. Your practical life at every point will find its fullest satisfaction – if you inquire on the basis of this background. You will be benefited in every detail of your life’s necessity. All your practical necessities that you are not conscious of at present – all will find their fullest satisfaction there. You will have engagement, and you will feel that you are deriving more satisfaction than you could have ever imagined. All your attempts are procuring fulfilment in that plane.

 

ceto-darpana-marjanam bhava-mahadavagni-nirvapanam

sreyah-kairava-candrika-vitaranam vidyavadhu-jivanam

anandambudhi-vardhanam prati-padam purnamrtasvadanam

sarvatma-snapanam param vijayate sri-krsna-sankirtanam

 

(Sri Siksastakam,1)

 

“You will obtain your fullest satisfaction beyond your most satiated imagination. You will feel not only in connection with an ocean of joy, but at every step, you will find full enjoyment that is ever new. You will have to experience new fulfilment of life at every moment. Every moment is new fulfilment beyond your estimation and by that fulfilment – by that satisfaction, you will not be the loser. You will not be responsible for any reaction. You will feel you are being purified at every moment. By enjoyment here, you are impure with reaction. But in that process in connection with the Infinite, whatever satisfaction or enjoyment you will experience even though new at every step, will not draw any reaction. You will feel wholesale purification when you do that, you will feel the ecstasy which is drawn only by your dedication.”

Dedication, ecstasy, satisfaction in your search – these things will give you joy – but that joy will not mix with dirt: it will only purify you. Whatever you learn will only be purifying. It is so novel because the basis is dedication – not exploitation. Cultivation of Krsna Consciousness in its highest stage is such: the more you enjoy, the more you are purified. Such a program Mahaprabhu has recommended to us from Srimad Bhagavatam, the last projection of revealed Truth from that great expounder, Sri Vedavyasa.

[theist]

 

Realizing that krishna exists everywhere in multitude of forms, actions, beings and seeing that Krishna himself is all these beings + acting through such beings, is this advaita? or is this krishna consciousness?

 

Reason for asking: Vaishnavas say vishnu made this universe like kshoradayaki vishnu... etc. etc.etc.

Advaitans say it is all brahman, made from brahman, by brahman.

 

So, which one is it? is the realization vaishnavism or advaitan realization?

A good question. And by asking this question you acknowledge there is a difference between the two. On the dividing line thread this difference is what I wanted to highlight. You alread know my answer so we will see what others have to say.

[Redsox]

 

A good question. And by asking this question you acknowledge there is a difference between the two. On the dividing line thread this difference is what I wanted to highlight. You alread know my answer so we will see what others have to say.

 

Theist,

 

honestly, i was asking because I don't see a difference between advaita and vaishnava realization, don't you think i could answer this question myself if I knew there was a difference?

 

I was asking the question because I don't know the difference.

[theist]

Oh. Well the differences are delinated in the teaching of the Vaisnava acaryas as posted above by beggar.

 

In brief it comes down to loving personal exchanges bwteen the Lord and His devotees. These are eternal. Impersonal energy fields, no matter how vast. are incapable of of this.

[Redsox]

 

Oh. Well the differences are delinated in the teaching of the Vaisnava acaryas as posted above by beggar.

 

In brief it comes down to loving personal exchanges bwteen the Lord and His devotees. These are eternal. Impersonal energy fields, no matter how vast. are incapable of of this.

 

Internal? external? all the same!

 

From Beggar's quotes: "Why your Guru Maharaja is not here by His side if He is Mahaprabhu Himself?”

They replied, “He is also at the side of Mahaprabhu in his heart.”

 

Vashista from Yoga Vashista:

Vashista said, " O Rama, when thus truth has been seen in the heart, then this very world becomes an abode of bliss. Such a person has nothing to acquire, or anything to shun. He is untainted by the defects of life, untouched by its sorrow. O Rama, if you want to free yourself from the sorrow of samsara, receive wholesome instructions from sages like me and be free" .

 

I knew it! its the same thing, the relationship between krishna and bhakta is the same realization that advaitans have in their quest of the "truth" . Their truth is nothing different from yours. Those who don't understand advaita vedanta maybe deluded and think its different, I don't think it is. What do you think?

[shvu]

 

Internal? external? all the same!

 

I knew it! its the same thing, the relationship between krishna and bhakta is the same realization that advaitans have in their quest of the "truth" . Their truth is nothing different from yours. Those who don't understand advaita vedanta maybe deluded and think its different, I don't think it is.

 

What do you think?

 

The three major traditions of Vedanta different mainly in the way they define and describe realization or moksha. Before Moksha, it s pretty much the same for the Advaitin and the Vaishnava. Worship Vishnu or Krishna, read the Gita and go through the same song and dance sequence as anyone else. But the differences kick in at/after Moskha.

 

Advaita says all duality is due to ignorance and the point of realization is when ignorance and thereby duality is removed. Brahman along exists at that point.

 

Tattvavada & mostly all other Vaishnava traditions say Moksha is when the jiva becomes free and goes to Vaikunta where it will permanently reside with Vishnu.

 

As you can see, they are completely different. Tattvavada says Vishnu has an eternal form and the jiva permanently remains an independent entity from Vishnu. Compare this with Advaita which holds that forms being an outcome of duality exist due to ignorance and the jiva is in reality none other than Brahman.

 

Cheers

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

Realizing that krishna exists everywhere in multitude of forms, actions, beings and seeing that Krishna himself is all these beings + acting through such beings, is this advaita? or is this krishna consciousness?

 

The realization above is seeing "Krishna" everywhere. Generally, the advaitins see the impersonal absolute truth (Brahman) everywhere, and Krishna is considered a manifestation of that higher truth.

 

The Vaishnava's understand that there is no truth superior to Krishna (mattah parataram nanyat - "there is nothing superior to Me").

[Redsox]

 

The realization above is seeing "Krishna" everywhere. Generally, the advaitins see the impersonal absolute truth (Brahman) everywhere, and Krishna is considered a manifestation of that higher truth.

 

The Vaishnava's understand that there is no truth superior to Krishna (mattah parataram nanyat - "there is nothing superior to Me").

 

Yes I know they keep repeating what you are saying here, but

Honestly, I still don't see any difference. Saying "Krishna" is one of the manifestations of that supreme diety, or saying krishna is that supreme diety who manifests everywhere. In both cases, we are recognizing the supreme diety. We can't say they are not seeing the same krishna as we are because obviously we don't know what they see, we only think we know based on their descriptions ("Impersonal brahman" etc), we haven't really gone up that level of realization.

Therefore, The questions that inquire into the nature of this supreme diety: "Is brahman supreme and krishna another manifestation of that brahman or brahman another manifestation of Krishna?", all seem to be based in our own half knowledge and are the results of bewilderment caused by such half knowledge. In my opinion, it is like those people who are asking (in the beggar's article) "How come if Mahaprabhu is here, your guru is somewhere else?"

IF these questions aren't based on our own half knowledge and our puny little jiva intelligence that gets bewildered every single time it thinks or tries to figure out that krishna, then how is it so that those who are self realized like Suka Deva Goswami or Vashista never get confused like we do? They know exactly what they are doing no matter what their supposed path - Jnana or Bhakti.

 

I think they know that what they are doing and where they are going is that same Goloka,.

[theist]

 

I think they know that what they are doing and where they are going is that same Goloka,.

 

 

Don't you think it odd that the teachers of both those traditions of Advaita and Krsna consciousness disagree with you? I would hope that would give you pause to consider that you just may not be understanding correctly.

[matarisvan]

 

Realizing that krishna exists everywhere in multitude of forms, actions, beings and seeing that Krishna himself is all these beings + acting through such beings, is this advaita? or is this krishna consciousness?

 

Reason for asking: Vaishnavas say vishnu made this universe like kshoradayaki vishnu... etc. etc.etc.

Advaitans say it is all brahman, made from brahman, by brahman.

 

So, which one is it? is the realization vaishnavism or advaitan realization?

 

the two are very very different. if everything was the same then only advaita would be existing as there was no need for other Acaryas to break away and create new doctrines.

[Redsox]

 

the two are very very different. if everything was the same then only advaita would be existing as there was no need for other Acaryas to break away and create new doctrines.

 

Not really. There is a saying in the Rig veda: Ekam Sat Viprah Bahudah Vadanti" . Truth is one, but sages refer to it differently.

Did you know that there are two Dental degrees in united states? DDS and DMD. One is the doctor of dental surgery, another is Doctor of dental medicine. They are the same according to the way they practice. There are also two medical degrees for physicians, MD and DO. One is doctor of Allopathic medicine, another is doctor of Osteopathic medicine. Both have the same practices pertaining to medicine, they give the same medications, but their approach to learning and philosophy of medicine is different, but for a patient who is visiting them, he won't know the difference.

In the sense that they are all different perspectives of the same thing.

The distinction of bhakti and advaita on a very high level is the not there and it is similar to the analogies given above, in my opinion.

[Redsox]

 

Don't you think it odd that the teachers of both those traditions of Advaita and Krsna consciousness disagree with you? I would hope that would give you pause to consider that you just may not be understanding correctly.

 

His Holiness Sri Tridandi Chinna Jeeyar Swamiji (I think this guy is a big Vaishnava in South India): "Adi Shankaracharya who drank the ocean of knowledge, as easily as one sips the water from the palm of one's hand, sang in his later years, Hymns to develop devotion, it is enough to show that jnana and bhakti are one , and the same."

 

 

Adi Shankaracharya: "Bhaja Govindam! Bhaja Govindam! Moodamate!"

Translation: Worship Govinda! worship govinda! you fool!.

 

 

Adi Shankaracharya's Bhaja Govindam Stanza 27:

geyaM giitaa naama sahasraM

dhyeyaM shriipati ruupamajasram.h .

neyaM sajjana saNge chittaM

deyaM diinajanaaya cha vittam.h

 

Translation: Regularly recite from the Gita, meditate on Vishnu [thro' Vishnu sahasranama] in your heart, and chant His thousand glories. Take delight to be with the noble and the holy. Distribute your wealth in charity to the poor and the needy.

[Beggar]

Srila Prabhupada chastises impersonalist yogis and swamis, the nominal followers of the ninth-century teacher Sankara, in this commentary on Sankara's Meditation on the Bhagavad Gita: Fools rush in where angels fear to tread. Whereas Sankara, the greatest of the impersonalists, offers his due respects to Krishna and His book Bhagavad Gita, the foolish say that we need not surrender to the personal Krishna. His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada (09-25-07)

 

--1--

 

 

 

 

 

O Bhagavad-gita,

Through Thy eighteen chapters

Thou showerest upon man

The immortal nectar

Of the wisdom of the Absolute.

O blessed Gita,

By Thee, Lord Krsna Himself

Enlightened Arjuna.

Afterward, the ancient sage Vyasa

Included Thee in the Mahabharata.

O loving mother,

Destroyer of man's rebirth

Into the darkness of this mortal world,

Upon Thee I meditate.

--2--

 

 

Salutations to thee, O Vyasa.

Thou art of mighty intellect,

And thine eyes

Are large as the petals

Of the full-blown lotus.

It was thou

Who brightened this lamp of wisdom,

Filling it with the oil

Of the Mahabharata.

 

 

Purport

 

Sripada Sankaracarya was an impersonalist from the materialistic point of view. But he never denied the spiritual form known as sac-cid-ananda-vigraha, or the eternal, all-blissful form of knowledge that existed before the material creation. When he spoke of Supreme Brahman as impersonal, he meant that the Lord's sac-cid-ananda form was not to be confused with a material conception of personality. In the very beginning of his commentary on the Gita, he maintains that Narayana, the Supreme Lord, is transcendental to the material creation. The Lord existed before the creation as the transcendental personality, and He has nothing to do with material personality. Lord Krsna is the same Supreme Personality, and He has no connection with a material body. He descends in His spiritual, eternal form, but foolish people mistake His body to be like ours. Sankara's preaching of impersonalism is especially meant for teaching foolish persons who consider Krsna to be an ordinary man composed of matter.

No one would care to read the Gita if it had been spoken by a material man, and certainly Vyasadeva would not have bothered to incorporate it into the history of the Mahabharata. According to the above verses, Mahabharata is the history of the ancient world, and Vyasadeva is the writer of this great epic. The Bhagavad-gita is identical with Krsna; and because Krsna is the Absolute Supreme Personality of Godhead, there is no difference between Krsna and His words. Therefore the Bhagavad-gita is as worshipable as Lord Krsna Himself, both being absolute. One who hears the Bhagavad-gita "as is" actually hears the words directly from the lotus lips of the Lord. But unfortunate persons say that the Gita is too antiquated for the modern man, who wants to find out God by speculation or meditation.

 

 

--3--

 

 

I salute Thee, O Krsna,

O Thou who art the refuge

Of ocean-born Laksmi

And all who take refuge

At Thy lotus feet.

Thou art indeed

The wish-fulfilling tree

For Thy devotee.

Thy one hand holds a staff

For driving cows,

And Thy other hand is raised--

The thumb touching the tip

Of Thy forefinger,

Indicating divine knowledge.

Salutations to Thee, O Supreme Lord,

For Thou art the milker

Of the ambrosia of the Gita.

 

 

Purport

 

Sripada Sankaracarya explicitly says, "You fools, just worship Govinda and that Bhagavad-gita spoken by Narayana Himself," yet foolish people still conduct their research work to find out Narayana; consequently they are wretched, and they waste their time for nothing. Narayana is never wretched nor daridra; rather, He is worshiped by the goddess of fortune, Laksmi, as well as by all living entities. Sankara declared himself to be "Brahman," but he admits Narayana, or Krsna, to be the Supreme Personality who is beyond the material creation. He offers his respects to Krsna as the Supreme Brahman, or Parabrahman, because He (Krsna) is worshipable by everyone. Only the fools and enemies of Krsna, who cannot understand what the Bhagavad-gita is (though they make commentaries on it), say, "It is not the personal Krsna to whom we have to surrender ourselves utterly, but the unborn, beginningless Eternal who speaks through Krsna." Fools rush in where angels fear to tread. Whereas Sankara, the greatest of the impersonalists, offers his due respects to Krsna and His book the Bhagavad-gita, the foolish say that "we need not surrender to the personal Krsna." Such unenlightened people do not know that Krsna is absolute and that there is no difference between His inside and outside. The difference of inside and outside is experienced in the dual, material world. In the absolute world there is no such difference, because in the absolute everything is spiritual (sac-cid-ananda), and Narayana, or Krsna, belongs to the absolute world. In the absolute world there is only the factual personality, and there is no distinction between body and soul.

 

--4--

 

 

The Upanisads

Are as a herd of cows,

Lord Krsna, son of a cowherd,

Is their milker,

Arjuna is the calf,

The supreme nectar of the Gita

Is the milk,

And the wise man

Of purified intellect

Is the drinker.

 

 

Purport

 

Unless one understands spiritual variegatedness, one cannot understand the transcendental pastimes of the Lord. In the Brahma-samhita it is said that Krsna's name, form, quality, pastimes, entourage, and paraphernalia are all ananda-cinmaya-rasa--in short, everything of His transcendental association is of the same composition of spiritual bliss, knowledge, and eternity. There is no end to His name, form, etc., unlike in the material world, where all things have their end. As stated in the Bhagavad-gita, only fools deride Him; whereas it is Sankara, the greatest impersonalist, who worships Him, His cows, and His pastimes as the son of Vasudeva and pleasure of Devaki.

 

--5--

 

 

Thou son of Vasudeva,

Destroyer of the demons Kamsa and Canura,

Thou supreme bliss of Mother Devaki,

O Thou, guru of the universe,

Teacher of the worlds,

Thee, O Krsna, I salute.

 

 

Purport

 

Sankara describes Him as the son of Vasudeva and Devaki. Does he mean thereby that he is worshiping an ordinary, material man? He worships Krsna because he knows that Krsna's birth and activities are all supernatural. As stated in the Bhagavad-gita (4.9), Krsna's birth and activities are mysterious and transcendental, and therefore only the devotees of Krsna can know them perfectly. Sankara was not such a fool that he would accept Krsna as an ordinary man and at the same time offer Him all devotional obeisances, knowing Him as the son of Devaki and Vasudeva. According to the Bhagavad-gita, only by knowing the transcendental birth and activities of Krsna can one attain liberation by acquiring a spiritual form like Krsna's. There are five different kinds of liberation. One who merges into the spiritual auras of Krsna, known as the impersonal Brahman effulgence, does not fully develop his spiritual body. But one who fully develops his spiritual existence becomes an associate of Narayana or Krsna in different spiritual abodes. One who enters into the abode of Narayana develops a spiritual form exactly like Narayana's (four-handed), and one who enters into the highest spiritual abode of Krsna, known as Goloka Vrndavana, develops a spiritual form of two hands like Krsna's. Sankara, as an incarnation of Lord Siva, knows all these spiritual existences, but he did not disclose them to his then Buddhist followers because it was impossible for them to know about the spiritual world. Lord Buddha preached that void is the ultimate goal, so how could his followers understand spiritual variegatedness? Therefore Sankara said, brahma satyam jagan mithya, or, material variegatedness is false but spiritual variegatedness is fact. In the Padma Purana Lord Siva has admitted that he had to preach the philosophy of maya, or illusion, in the Kali-yuga as another edition of the "void" philosophy of Buddha. He had to do this by the order of the Lord for specific reasons. He disclosed his real mind, however, by recommending that people worship Krsna, for no one can be saved simply by mental speculations composed of word jugglery and grammatical maneuvers. Sankara further instructs:

 

bhaja govindam bhaja govindam

bhaja govindam mudha-mate

samprapte sannihite kale

na hi na hi raksati dukrn-karane

 

"You intellectual fools, just worship Govinda, just worship Govinda, just worship Govinda. Your grammatical knowledge and word jugglery will not save you at the time of death."

 

--6--

 

 

Of that terrifying river

Of the battlefield of Kuruksetra

Over which the Pandavas victoriously crossed,

Bhisma and Drona were as the high banks,

Jayadratha as the river's water,

The King of Gandhara the blue water-lily,

Salya the shark, Krpa the current,

Karna the mighty waves,

Asvatthama and Vikarna the dread alligators,

And Duryodhana the very whirlpool--

But Thou, O Krsna, wast the ferryman!

 

 

--7--

 

 

May the spotless lotus of the Mahabharata

That grows on the waters

Of the words of Vyasa

And of which the Bhagavad-gita

Is the irresistibly sweet fragrance

And its tales of heroes

The full-blown petals

Fully opened by the talk of Lord Hari,

Who destroys the sins

Of Kali-yuga,

And on which daily light

The nectar-seeking souls,

As so many bees

Swarming joyously--

May this lotus of the Mahabharata

Bestow on us the highest good.

 

 

--8--

 

 

 

Salutations to Lord Krsna

The embodiment of supreme bliss,

By whose grace and compassion

The dumb become eloquent

And the lame scale mountains--

Him I salute!

 

 

Purport

 

Foolish followers of foolish speculators cannot understand the meaning of offering salutations to Lord Krsna, the embodiment of bliss. Sankara himself offered his salutations to Lord Krsna so that some of his intelligent followers might understand the real fact by the example set by their great master, Sankara, the incarnation of Lord Siva. But there are many obstinate followers of Sankara who refuse to offer their salutations to Lord Krsna and instead mislead innocent persons by injecting materialism into the Bhagavad-gita and confusing innocent readers by their commentaries, and consequently the readers never have the opportunity to become blessed by offering salutations to Lord Krsna, the cause of all causes. The greatest disservice to humanity is to keep mankind in darkness about the science of Krsna, or Krsna consciousness, by distorting the sense of the Gita.

 

--9--

 

 

Salutations to that supreme shining one

Whom the creator Brahma, Varuna,

Indra, Rudra, Marut, and all divine beings

Praise with hymns,

Whose glories are sung

By the verses of the Vedas,

Of whom the singers of Sama sing

And of whose glories the Upanisads

Proclaim in full choir,

Whom the yogis see

With their minds absorbed

In perfect meditation,

And of whom all the hosts

Of gods and demons

Know not the limitations.

To Him, the Supreme God, Krsna, be all salutations--

Him we salute! Him we salute! Him we salute!

 

Purport

 

By recitation of the ninth verse of his meditation, quoted from the Srimad-Bhagavatam, Sankara has indicated that Lord Krsna is worshipable by one and all, including himself. He gives hints to materialists, impersonalists, mental speculators, "void" philosophers, and all other candidates subjected to the punishment of material miseries--just offer salutations to Lord Krsna, who is worshiped by Brahma, Siva, Varuna, Indra, and all other demigods. He has not mentioned, however, the name of Visnu, because Visnu is identical with Krsna. The Vedas and the Upanisads are meant for understanding the process by which one can surrender unto Krsna. The yogis try to see Him (Krsna) within themselves by meditation. In other words, it is for all the demigods and demons who do not know where the ultimate end is that Sankara teaches, and he especially instructs the demons and the fools to offer salutations to Krsna and His words, the Bhagavad-gita, by following in his footsteps. Only by such acts will the demons be benefited, not by misleading their innocent followers by so-called mental speculations or show-bottle meditations. Sankara directly offers salutations to Krsna, as if to show the fools, who are searching after light, that here ls light like the sun. But the fallen demons are like owls that will not open their eyes on account of their fear of the sunlight itself. These owls will never open their eyes to see the sublime light of Krsna and His words the Bhagavad-gita. They will, however, comment on the Gita with their closed owl-eyes to mislead their unfortunate readers and followers. Sankara, however, discloses the light to his less intelligent followers and shows that the Bhagavad-gita and Krsna are the only source of light. This is all to teach the sincere seekers of truth to offer salutation to Lord Krsna and thus surrender unto Him without misgivings. That is the highest perfection of life, and that is the highest teaching of Sankara, the great learned scholar whose teachings drove the voidist philosophy of Buddha out of India, the land of knowledge. Om tat sat.

His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

[suchandra]

 

Realizing that krishna exists everywhere in multitude of forms, actions, beings and seeing that Krishna himself is all these beings + acting through such beings, is this advaita? or is this krishna consciousness?

 

Reason for asking: Vaishnavas say vishnu made this universe like kshoradayaki vishnu... etc. etc.etc.

Advaitans say it is all brahman, made from brahman, by brahman.

 

So, which one is it? is the realization vaishnavism or advaitan realization?

"So the question was whether Vedānta means advaita-vāda or dvaita-vāda. So it is very easy to understand. The first aphorism of Vedānta: athāto brahma jijñāsā, to inquire about Brahman, the Absolute Truth. Now the, to inquire where? If you want to inquire, you must go to somebody who knows the thing. Therefore, immediately, in the very beginning of the Vedānta-sūtra, there is duality, that one must inquire, and one must answer. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. So in Vedānta-sūtra, how you can say it is advaita-vāda? It is dvaita-vāda, from the very beginning. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. One must inquire what is Brahman, and one must reply, or the spiritual master, or the disciple, that it is dual. How you can say it is advaita-vāda? So we have to study in this way. Here it is said, tattva- darśibhih. Tattva-darśibhih means vedānta-vit, one who knows Vedānta. Janmādy asya yatah [bhāg. 1.1.1]. One who knows the Absolute Truth, from where everything begins. Janmādy asya yatah. That is the beginning of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam."

 

Bhagavad-gītā 2.15

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

Hyderabad, November 21, 1972

[theist]

 

His Holiness Sri Tridandi Chinna Jeeyar Swamiji (I think this guy is a big Vaishnava in South India): "Adi Shankaracharya who drank the ocean of knowledge, as easily as one sips the water from the palm of one's hand, sang in his later years, Hymns to develop devotion, it is enough to show that jnana and bhakti are one , and the same."

 

 

Adi Shankaracharya: "Bhaja Govindam! Bhaja Govindam! Moodamate!"

Translation: Worship Govinda! worship govinda! you fool!.

 

 

Adi Shankaracharya's Bhaja Govindam Stanza 27:

geyaM giitaa naama sahasraM

dhyeyaM shriipati ruupamajasram.h .

neyaM sajjana saNge chittaM

deyaM diinajanaaya cha vittam.h

 

Translation: Regularly recite from the Gita, meditate on Vishnu [thro' Vishnu sahasranama] in your heart, and chant His thousand glories. Take delight to be with the noble and the holy. Distribute your wealth in charity to the poor and the needy.

 

Yes real jnana means to come into knowledge of oneself as the devotee of Krsna. In that way bhakti and jnana are the same. BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT ADVAITA MEANS BY JNANA.

 

Anyway I am tired of repeating the same thing to you. You have your position for now and are not really listening to others that respond so need need to continue.

 

Hare Krsna

[Redsox]

 

"So the question was whether Vedānta means advaita-vāda or dvaita-vāda. So it is very easy to understand. The first aphorism of Vedānta: athāto brahma jijñāsā, to inquire about Brahman, the Absolute Truth. Now the, to inquire where? If you want to inquire, you must go to somebody who knows the thing. Therefore, immediately, in the very beginning of the Vedānta-sūtra, there is duality, that one must inquire, and one must answer. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. So in Vedānta-sūtra, how you can say it is advaita-vāda? It is dvaita-vāda, from the very beginning. Athāto brahma jijñāsā. One must inquire what is Brahman, and one must reply, or the spiritual master, or the disciple, that it is dual. How you can say it is advaita-vāda? So we have to study in this way. Here it is said, tattva- darśibhih. Tattva-darśibhih means vedānta-vit, one who knows Vedānta. Janmādy asya yatah [bhāg. 1.1.1]. One who knows the Absolute Truth, from where everything begins. Janmādy asya yatah. That is the beginning of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam."

 

 

The better question would be, if you were brahman before and are brahman now, what need is there for any seeking or liberation? aren't you allowing yourself to experience duality by doing so?

 

The answer for that too is similar to what krishna consciousness says on the fall of the jiva->self forgetfulness.

 

 

Yes real jnana means to come into knowledge of oneself as the devotee of Krsna. In that way bhakti and jnana are the same. BUT THAT IS NOT WHAT ADVAITA MEANS BY JNANA.

 

Anyway I am tired of repeating the same thing to you. You have your position for now and are not really listening to others that respond so need need to continue.

 

Hare Krsna

 

haha neither are you listening!. Granted you are more experienced than I am in this mode of bhakti, I will let you be. I wasn't necessarily trying to get preached to, it is only a discussion and at the end of it, we all hope we learn something.

[suchandra]

 

I wasn't necessarily trying to get preached to, it is only a discussion and at the end of it, we all hope we learn something.

Good point, learning something, that there're no contradictions!

 

"There is nothing at all, any contradiction, even, even in the preachings of the great ācāryas. I am speaking of India. There were many great ācāryas, I mean to say, reformers, came. Lord Buddha also appeared in India. Then, after Lord Buddha, Śaṅkarācārya came. Then, after Śaṅkarācārya, Śrī Rāmānujācārya came. Then, after Śrī Rāmānujācārya, Madhvācārya, and then, lately, Śrī Caitanya, Lord Caitanya. He came. But you will find a link, a link, although superficially we may see that Lord Buddha is speaking something which is contradictory to Lord Śaṅkarācārya’s teaching, or Rāmānujācārya is speaking something which is contradiction to Śaṅkara. No. There is no contradiction. It is the question of studying how they are paving way for ultimate spiritual realization. That requires a very, I mean to say, substantial knowledge, how they are paving the way, just step by step.

 

Just like Lord Buddha’s teaching. Lord Buddha’s teachings is… That is also detachment from matter, nirvāṇa. Nirvāṇa. But he does not speak anything about the spirit soul. Because the position in which he was speaking, that position, for the human, humanity, was not suitable for understanding what is the constitution of spirit, therefore he did not say anything about spirit. He simply preached nonviolence. So far our body is concerned, he stressed on the point that we should be nonviolent. We should not be killing animals anymore. That was his preaching. Similarly, Śaṅkara… A little more than Buddha. He said, “No, no. Matter is not all. The spirit is real thing. Matter is false.” Brahma satyaṁ jagan mithyā. Now, he did not say about the activities of spiritual life. He simply gave hint that there, that matter is false. Matter is generated by spirit. Spirit is the real, principle thing. Just like Buddha did not say anything about spirit. He simply wanted that detachment of, from matter. But detachment from matter… Then where is my stand? Where is my stand? If I leave this room, I must have another room to stay. So that is the position of Buddha. He did not say about the spirit. But Śaṅkara, Śaṅkara said, “No, matter is our false position. Spirit is real position.” But he did not say anything, what are the activities of the spiritual life. Then Śrī Rāmānujācārya came. He described the actual position of spiritual life. These are gradual development. Your, I mean to say, Lord Jesus, also, Lord Jesus Christ, he also gave hints of spiritual life, kingdom of God. So when we speak of kingdom of God, a kingdom, vacant, cannot be. Kingdom means there must be activities. Otherwise, what is the meaning of kingdom? So, of course, he did not give any detailed account of the kingdom of God, but he gave hint. So these are gradual development so far the human society is concerned."

 

Bhagavad-gītā 2.58-59

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

New York, April 27, 1966

 

 

"When Sri Visnusvami, one of the four acaryas of the Vaisnava cult, presented his thesis on the subject matter of suddhadvaita-vada, immediately the Mayavadis took advantage of this philosophy and tried to establish their advaita-vada or kevaladvaita-vada. To defeat this kevaladvaita-vada, Sri Ramanujacarya presented his philosophy as visistadvaita-vada, and Sri Madhvacarya presented his philosophy of tattva-vada, both of which are stumbling blocks to the Mayavadis because they defeat their philosophy in scrupulous detail. Students of Vedic philosophy know very well how strongly Sri Ramanujacarya's visistadvaita-vada and Sri Madhvacarya's tattva-vada contest the impersonal Mayavada philosophy. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, however, accepted the direct meaning of the Vedanta philosophy and thus defeated the Mayavada philosophy immediately. He opined in this connection that anyone who follows the principles of the Sariraka-bhasya is doomed. This is confirmed in the Padma Purana:

 

"My dear wife, hear my explanations of how I have spread ignorance through Mayavada philosophy. Simply by hearing it, even an advanced scholar will fall down. In this philosophy, which is certainly very inauspicious for people in general, I have misrepresented the real meaning of the Vedas and recommended that one give up all activities in order to achieve freedom from karma. In this Mayavada philosophy I have described the jivatma and Paramatma to be one and the same." How the Mayavada philosophy was condemned by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and His followers is described in Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Antya-lila, Second Chapter, verses 94 through 99, where Svarupa-damodara Gosvami says that anyone who is eager to understand the Mayavada philosophy must be considered insane. This especially applies to a Vaisnava who reads the Sariraka-bhasya and considers himself to be one with God. The Mayavadi philosophers have presented their arguments in such attractive, flowery language that hearing Mayavada philosophy may sometimes change the mind of even a maha-bhagavata, or very advanced devotee. An actual Vaisnava cannot tolerate any philosophy that claims God and the living being to be one and the same."

 

Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi lila 7:110

[new---new]

I am very busy till monday..................

 

yes vaishnava acharyas ask not even to read mayavada philosophy..which is the right thing to do especially for vaishnavas....but i dont think there are many people who believe in shuddha advaita ...anyways ...the reason i got into this debate on the other disccussion about the dividing line is not to proove the superiority of one philosophical system over another but o point out that our scriptures are multidimensional in nature .....and the Rishis have purposely composed them in such a manner ....for example at one level the gita is a literal story of war.....then every verse of the gita is a mantra by itself......then there are intrepretations where characters ..ie. the pandavas are associated with chakras in the human body ....of course we know the bhakti and jnana intrepretations ....... thus there are many interpretations of the same text depending on the which dimendion one wishes to study........

 

another example which easily comes to the mind is that ....saundarya lahiri composed by shankaracharya...which is a hymn in praise of the devi ....at literal level it is just a praise ..then ther are many mantras in the hymn which are supposed to be used with their specific yantras to get a specific result.... then he also has reveled a very secret mantra found in the atharva veda ...and also in the rig veda .....then in certain parts of the hymn he explains how the devi as kundilini flows through different chakras ....etc........thus many of our core scriptures like the bhagavad gita..... durga shaptashati and saundarya lahiri ...are multidimensional in nature ....understanding one of its dimension should not become a reason to deride the other dimensions.........

and offcourse we need vaishanavas ..a lot of vaishnavas ...to bring more people under krishnas care so that this world becomes a better place.....

 

we would be better off having more bhaktas than jnanis ...because bhakti is contagious......and is therefore more effective....

[Redsox]

Thank you for your honest and sincere replies, ---, Suchandra, Beggar, Theist, Matarisvan, Nitai Das, Shvu.