Bhakta Corey, USA : Fallen Gurus And Fallen Priests

[suchandra]

Could be that this is a common, widespread misunderstanding - gurus and priests, all the same, no difference, it's all one.

 

Monday, February 25, 2008

 

Fallen gurus and fallen priests, liberal western culture the missing link?

 

 

HG Bhakta Corey prabhu, USA, editor PLANETISKCON.COM

 

 

Please read this article about a Catholic priest who fell from his vows of celibacy. In this article, can you find any similarities between the liberalization of ISKCON's culture and the liberalization of the Catholic church? If there are similarities, is there perhaps a relation between fallen gurus and fallen priests, liberal western culture being the missing link?

 

(Reverend Frederick Heuser is the pastor of St. James Parish in Kenosha, Wisconson. He has a B.A. in philosophy and an M.Div. from St. Francis Seminary in Milwaukee and an M.A. in speech from Marquette University. After ordination, he taught in a high school, and then became the Associate Director of the Catholic Family Life Program of Milwaukee before assuming his present position. His last article in Homiletic & Pastoral Review appeared in December 2000.)

 

The doctor has just left my hospital room. I saw the sadness in his eyes as he tells me the bad news. The cancer had spread through most of my body and further treatment would be useless. He said he would put my wife in contact with the hospice program to make the time I had left as comfortable as possible. "As comfortable as possible"-that phrase seems to summarize what my goal in life had been the last 35 years. But it was not always so.

 

 

As a boy I was enthralled with the lives of missionaries like St.Francis Xavier who brought the Faith to India, of St. Isaac Jogues who labored among the Indians of New York or Junipero Serra who left a comfortable home in Spain in his 50s to bring Christ to California. I pictured myself being tortured and even martyred for Christ and in my youthful enthusiasm I longed to say with the dying St. Stephen, "Lord, do not lay this sin upon them."

 

I devoured books on heroic saints like the youthful Tarcisius who died bringing Holy Communion to imprisoned Christians during the Roman persecutions. And I felt God was calling me to be a priest. When I shared these aspirations with the Sister who taught me seventh grade and the young assistant pastor who had been ordained just two years they encouraged me to enter the seminary. I did just that with the blessing of my parents, two brothers and three sisters. At age 14 I enrolled as a freshman in the diocesan seminary.

 

My high school days were carefree and fun. I didn't understand how algebra and geometry would make me a better priest but studying Latin made sense because the Mass and the Sacraments were said in that language and I knew our philosophy and theology classes later on would be in that ancient tongue also. Seminary rules kept us from most sexual temptations since we were forbidden to go out with girls. As a preparation for a life of celibate chastity these rules made good sense to me.

 

Graduation from high school meant the beginning of a study of liberal arts in college. At that time the seminary was divided into two sections, a minor seminary consisting of four years of high school and the first two years of college and a major seminary which taught two years of philosophy and four years of theology. The years went by quickly and the camaraderie of fellow students helped us develop lifelong friendships. Along the way some students dropped out and a few were asked to leave. At the end of my first year of theology the bishop tonsured us, a hair cutting ceremony that indicated we were no longer laymen but had become clerics. The four minor orders followed shortly: porter, lector, exorcist and acolyte. A year before priestly ordination we were ordained sub deacons which gave us the obligation of praying the Divine Office each day and embracing lifelong celibate chastity. We also had to pledge abstinence from alcohol for five years. We had been well prepared for these obligations and they were willingly embraced. Six months later we were ordained deacons and could wear the clerical collar with our black suits. How proud were my parents to see me so dressed for the first time. Finally in May of 1960, the big day arrived. We were bused to the Cathedral where in the presence of our families and friends the Archbishop laid his hands on our heads and ordained us priests forever. We then concelebrated our first Mass with him. My childhood dreams had been fulfilled. The faces of my parents, brothers and sisters beamed with pride as they knelt for my first priestly blessing. My mother hugged me long and tenderly and whispered "Now, like Mary, I too have a son who is a priest."

 

My First Solemn Mass was a beautiful ceremony. The parish choir had practiced for weeks and never sounded better. The pastor assisted me at Mass with two of my classmates serving as deacon and subdeacon while four of my nephews were the altar servers. The banquet that followed in the church hall with congratulatory speeches was the culmination of a glorious day. A week later I received a letter from the Archbishop appointing me as second assistant to the pastor of St. Meinrad's Parish. I thoroughly enjoyed the company of the other two priests, teaching religion in the parish school, offering Mass, hearing confessions and having many convert instructions. It was a very happy life. Then an event took place in Rome that startled the whole Church. Pope John XXIII convened the first Ecumenical Council to be held since Vatican I in 1870. Logically it was called Vatican II.

 

 

The papers were filled with the many changes the Church would experience. Over the years the Mass was changed and was now said in English facing the people. Lay people were brought into the sanctuary to do the readings, lead the music and distribute Holy Communion. Communion was given in people's hands while they were standing. It seemed the priest was not so special anymore. Friday abstinence was dropped; the Communion fast shortened to one hour and fasting during Lent, Ember Days and certain vigils was eliminated. Mixed marriages, with permission, could be witnessed by a Protestant minister in his church. Theologians were telling us that the Church would change its ban on artificial birth control. It seemed that everything was changing: up was down, down was up and what was wrong now seemed to be right.

 

We were encouraged to attend workshops to update our theology, to read the new ideas put forth by theologians like Hans Küng, Karl Rahner, Charles Curran and Richard McBrien. Even the meaning of the Bible was questioned by scholars like Raymond Brown and John McKenzie. Nuns began dressing in lay clothes and priests would wear shirts and ties to better identify with the laity. As women were given new roles in the parish we priests were encouraged to work closely with them. All the caveats we had been taught about relationships with women now seemed very old fashioned. Sister Mary Agnes was appointed head of the liturgy committee of our Parish Council. She was young, attractive and fun to work with. She had decided to discard her religious habit and wear modest lay clothing. As we worked together the titles "Sister" and "Father" seemed artificial and it was soon Agnes and Frank. Friendship blossomed into affection and affection into love. I had never felt this way about a person before. I should have recognized the danger signs but was blinded by love. Holding hands led to kisses and intimacies that violated our vows of chastity. We were both honest enough to realize we had to choose: to separate or to leave our religious vocations and marry. In the end human love prevailed over our vows. The hardest part next to announcing to the congregation that I was leaving the priesthood was telling my parents. I'll never forget the tears in my mother's eyes when I told her about Agnes and me. My father seemed to age about ten years. We sought dispensation from our vows and while awaiting them married in a civil ceremony. Once the break was made and our marriage was blessed my family gradually accepted Agnes.

 

Though we never had children we had a happy life together and I was able to get a position teaching at a local junior college. Occasionally old friends would call or drop by but after a few years those contacts stopped and we had a new circle of friends. I retired at 65 with a nice pension and life seemed very comfortable indeed. Then the back pains began and they were diagnosed as being caused by malignant tumors. Despite radiation and chemotherapy they continued to grow and spread until the doctor had to tell me that there was nothing more he could do.

 

I now have about three weeks before I must stand before my Creator. I am haunted by memories now. I hear the words of Jesus "He who put his hand to the plow and looks back is not worthy of Me.He who loves father or mother, wife or children more than Me is not worthy of Me.Thou art a priest forever according to the order of Melchisidech.You have not chosen Me, I have chosen you.The harvest is great but the harvesters are few." I think of the scandal I have caused by abandoning my vocation and wonder if some divorced and remarried couples had said, "If Father Frank can leave his vows and marry why can't we?" I am tormented when I think of all the Masses I should have offered but didn't, of all the confessions unheard because of me, of all the sick not anointed, all the children not instructed, all the converts not taught. I think of all the parishes closing because of a lack of priests and I have been part of the cause, part of the problem. I tremble as I think of my judgment.

 

The priest who gave me the last rites of the Church has assured me of God's forgiveness; but what of the people I was ordained to serve and abandoned? Can they forgive me? I know how Judas must have felt yet I have not despaired. Jesus forgave Peter who denied him three times. I know he can forgive me but will he? Will I hear him say "Receive the kingdom prepared for you from the beginning?" or "Depart from me you cursed into everlasting fire?" May God have mercy on my soul; may the tears of my sweet mother touch the Sacred Heart of Jesus. Please Jesus, say again to your heavenly father, "Father forgive him he knew not what he did."

 

Srila Prabhupada said that renunciates are not supposed to mix with women. The more we disregard this injunction and insist that we are transcendental to scriptural injunctions, that "men and women can mix freely since we are all equal", the more we will see sad situations like the one described above take place within ISKCON.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

 

Vipramukhya

BY: VAMSI VADANA DAS

 

Feb 22, IRELAND (SUN) —

What surprises me about

Vipramukya’s new life

as a gate-keeper for the State of Texas is, was he unable to become a happy householder in ISKCON because of the big reputation he had built up as a man of saffron? The humility involved in admitting that actually my desire for other things had become artificially subjugated and was being expressed in the name of “serving the Godhead” was found wanting in his character.

 

For Vipramukya, the choice of becoming a practicing grihasta and all that that involves was not an option as his previous fame would cloud all his future seva. Of course it shouldn’t be so, and the vast knowledge that the Vipra had should have shown the proper path was to be an honest householder. And all the humble-pie eating that there would be. Instead he has to try very hard to forget everything he has learned. I am sure if a TSKP van showed up at his door they would be well looked after.

 

As for his disciple’s and there must have been a few, they have been able to continue in ISKCON-seva as these days no pressure is on for re-initiation. It is an established fact nowadays in ISKCON that if your guru goes away, you can be accepted to use the name that the fallen guru gave you and go on to preach the glories of Sri Guru even though there is no one in ISKCON that can be found who is worthy of their trust and faith to be taken as their new guru. A case of once bitten, twice shy.

 

Someone of Vipramukya's standing should still be engaged as he has a lot to do to make up for whatever he did wrong. At least he didn't stash million's away for his rainy day.

 

[bhaktajan]

Boyd: "I'm just a correctional officer working for the Texas Department of Criminal Justice."

 

oofah!

Guarda questa gafone!

Nostra caro triste gafone!

 

Keep your gun clean, your back covered and your life will be sub-prime.

 

se la vie,

bhaktajan

[Kulapavana]

"Srila Prabhupada said that renunciates are not supposed to mix with women. The more we disregard this injunction and insist that we are transcendental to scriptural injunctions, that "men and women can mix freely since we are all equal", the more we will see sad situations like the one described above take place within ISKCON."

-----------------------------

 

<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->Iskcon gurus did not fall down because they could not remain celibate. They fell down because their spirituality was mostly just a show and they did not speak the truth. They were mere pretenders. There is no requirement that a guru must be celibate in our tradition. There is a very good reason why sannyasa was abolished for Kali-yuga.

 

There is lesson in everything, especially in the mistakes of other people. All you have to do is be willing to learn.

[Beggar]

Vipramukhya worked his way up the ISKCON corporate ladder and was part of the Satsvarupa Das Goswami section. In fact he took sannyasa from SDG. It was a system of rewards and perks for services rendered rather than a big salary. Small frys like Vipramukhya who were posted as big frys eventually had to either had to see through it all and become humble or like water eventually seek their own level.

-------

 

There's a yellow rose of Texas

That I am going to see

No other ISKCON sannyasi knows her

No sannyasi, only me.

She cried so when I left her

It like to broke my heart

And if I ever find her

We never more will part.

She's the sweetest rose of color

This sannyasi ever knew

Her eyes are bright as diamonds

They sparkle like the dew.

You may talk about your dearest May

And sing of Rosa Lee

But the Yellow Rose of Texas

Beats the belles of Tennessee.

Oh, my heart is feeling weary

And my head is hanging low

I'm goin' back to Georgy

To find my Uncle Joe.

You may talk about your Beauregard

And sing of Bhakta Bobby Lee

But the Gallant Hood of Texas

He raised Hell in with the GBC.

[AncientMariner]

 

"Srila Prabhupada said that renunciates are not supposed to mix with women. The more we disregard this injunction and insist that we are transcendental to scriptural injunctions, that "men and women can mix freely since we are all equal", the more we will see sad situations like the one described above take place within ISKCON."

-----------------------------

 

<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->Iskcon gurus did not fall down because they could not remain celibate. They fell down because their spirituality was mostly just a show and they did not speak the truth. They were mere pretenders. There is no requirement that a guru must be celibate in our tradition. There is a very good reason why sannyasa was abolished for Kali-yuga.

 

There is lesson in everything, especially in the mistakes of other people. All you have to do is be willing to learn.

 

 

I don't know that much about Iskcon other than what I have read about it but what you say here makes sense to me. I even read where one of the acaryas said he would have tons of children if he could make them Krsna Conscious or something to that effect.

[AcyutanandaDas]

Just to be clear, sannyasa isn't completely forbidden in Kali Yuga. Why would Mahaprabhu take sannyasa if it were so? What IS forbidden is ekadandi sannyasa. Ever read Jaiva Dharma? Furthermore, the practice of Sannyasa is quite prevalent not only amongst the Saraswat Parampara, but within the traditional four Vaisnava Sampradayas as well as the Shankara sampradaya.

 

--adas

[AncientMariner]

I met some devotees in the Seattle Airport back in 99 or 2000 and they were handing out Prabhupada books. Most of them seemed to be young Indians and I gotta admit there was a certain special type of aura about some of them like they really were at peace and all that so I don't know if they were real sannyasis or not but they did seem to have something special. Went back a few months later and there was still a Hare Krishna booth at the airport but one of the kids running it seemed real ritualistic and like he was just going through the motions if you know what I mean.

[Kulapavana]

 

Just to be clear, sannyasa isn't completely forbidden in Kali Yuga. Why would Mahaprabhu take sannyasa if it were so? What IS forbidden is ekadandi sannyasa. Ever read Jaiva Dharma? Furthermore, the practice of Sannyasa is quite prevalent not only amongst the Saraswat Parampara, but within the traditional four Vaisnava Sampradayas as well as the Shankara sampradaya.

 

--adas

 

if you have a 90% failure rate at something (in this case sannyasa in Iskcon) you would be wise to scrap the entire process (and Srila Prabhupada DID do just that in 1977: he said "no more sannyasa").

 

Exceptions do not make the rule go away. And the story that "only ekadanda sannyasa is forbidden" is just a stretch. Introducing sannyasa back into GV tradition was a bold move which produced some good results, but it also produced spectacular failures. There is no real need for sannyasa, especially in the West.

[AncientMariner]

 

if you have a 90% failure rate at something (in this case sannyasa in Iskcon) you would be wise to scrap the entire process (and Srila Prabhupada DID do just that in 1977: he said "no more sannyasa").

 

Exceptions do not make the rule go away. And the story that "only ekadanda sannyasa is forbidden" is just a stretch. Introducing sannyasa back into GV tradition was a bold move which produced some good results, but it also produced spectacular failures. There is no real need for sannyasa, especially in the West.

 

 

Didn't you once agree that only "ekadanda sannyasa is forbidden"? I thought once I posted where I had read that sannyasa is forbidden in the Kali-yuga and you responded with only ekadanda sannyasa is forbidden? I don't even know what ekadanda sannyasa is and how it differs from any other kind of sannyasa so I could be wrong and if so I apologize in advance.

[Beggar]

 

 

Is Sannyasa Forbidden in Kali Yuga?

 

 

by

 

 

Swami B. V. Giri

 

<hr align="center" size="1" width="200">

 

Krsna Talk No. 34

 

 

Sannyasa in Kali Yuga

Some time ago, a sannyasi who could not maintain his vows of renunciation wrote an apologetic letter on the internet addressed to his disciples and friends wherein he explained the numerous reasons why he could not continue in the renounced order of life.

In order to excuse his weakness, the apologetic sannyasi quoted a verse from the Brahma-vaivarta Purana to substantiate his opinion that Sannyasa is not meant for the people of Kali-Yuga.

 

 

 

asvamedham gavalambham sannyasam palapaitrkam

devarena sutopattim kalau panca vivarjayet

 

 

 

 

“Five things are forbidden in the age of Kali – horse-sacrifice, cow-sacrifice, acceptance of sannyasa, offering flesh to the forefathers and begetting a child in the womb of the wife of one’s elder brother.”

(Brahma-vaivarta Purana, Krsna-jnama Khanda

185.180).

 

 

 

 

 

Regrettably, by quoting this verse from the Brahma-vaivarta Purana as evidence that the sannyasa-asrama is ineffective in Kali-yuga, our former sannyasi has inferred that his own spiritual master, Srila Prabhupada, as well as his parama-guru, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura and all other great acaryas like Sri Ramanuja and Sri Madhva were misguided or even foolish for having accepted sannyasa and having awarded sannyasa to their disciples in Kali-yuga.

The now retired sannyasi has unwittingly fallen into the clutches of the anti-devotional parties who use this very same argument against Srila Sarasvati Thakura and his pure representatives. The anti-devotional parties argue that in the Caitanya-caritamrta, Sri Caitanyadeva Himself quotes this verse indicating that even if one has the qualities of a sannyasi, it is not recommended in the age of kali.

However this verse was quoted by the Lord in connection with cow killing during his conversation with the Chand Kazi, and not in connection with sannyasa. Furthermore, soon after His dialogue with the Kazi, Mahaprabhu traveled to Katwa in order to take sannyasa Himself from Sri Kesava Bharati. We also find that when Mahaprabhu resided in Purusottama-dhama, many of His close associates were sannyasis. Sri Svarupa Damodara, Paramananda Puri, Ranga Puri, Visnu Puri, Brahmananda Bharati, Kesava Puri, Govinda Puri, Sukhananda Puri, Brahmananda Puri, Nrsingha Puri, Nrsingha Tirtha and others were all in the renounced order of life. Mahaprabhu’s own diksa-guru Sripada Isvara Puri Gosvami was also a sannyasi, so how could Mahaprabhu possibly be against the acceptance of sannyasa in kali-yuga?

In the book, The Golden Staircase, Srila Sridhara Deva Gosvami Maharaja explains what type of sannaysa has been forbidden in this present age.

“The answer is explained in Sri Caitanya-caritamrta. This is a general question not only for the Gaudiya sampradaya, but also for the followers of Ramanuja, Madhvacarya, and even Sankaracarya. The Buddhists may not care for the directions of the Puranas, but the Sankara school and the Vaisnava schools accept sannyasa. Sankara was a sannyasi and for the most part his successors were all sannyasis as well. This is true of Ramanuja also, Madhvacarya, and the Visnusvami sampradaya also.

The interpretation is this: in this present age, sannyasa in the strict sense of karma-sannyasa is forbidden. Karma-sannyasa means that you leave everything, and that type of sannyasa is not possible in this present age. It is described in the sastras that in Satya-yuga, as long as a man’s bones exist, that is how long he will live. Along with the longevity of the bones, the life will be there. In Treta-yuga, life may be maintained by the nervous system; but it is stated that in kali-yuga ‘kalav-annagatah pranah’ – one’s longevity depends on food. Therefore sannyasa in the strict sense is not possible in kali-yuga.

Previously, Valmiki was engaged in tapasya for so many years that the insects captured his whole body and reduced his flesh into earth, yet he remained present within his bones. Then later, by the help of some spiritual miracle his whole body was restored. But in this present age, without food it is not possible to live. All penances have been especially adjusted for kali-yuga, and the only continuous fast allowed in this present age is for twenty-four hours - not more than that. In other ages, at least twelve days fasting was generally done. If a person had done anything wrong, then according to the smrti-sastra, twelve days fasting was the standard punishment for any sins. But in kali-yuga, twenty-four hours fasting is the maximum because without food a man cannot survive.

If he were to take karma-sannyasa while being so extremely dependent on material giving and taking, then he wouldn’t be able to maintain his existence. But the life of Vaisnava tridandi-sannyasa, which is not very extreme – take prasadam, do service – is a sort of modified form based on yuktahara viharas ca, and one living according to this principle can take sannyasa.

Mahaprabhu took sannyasa, Sankaracarya, Ramanuja – all the pioneers of the different sampradayas took sannyasa. That has been interpreted as karma-sannyasa, but still, sannyasa is of several kinds. There is also vidvat-sannaysa, which is considered by the salvationist section to be the highest. Their idea is that when one has fully realized that his connection with this material realm is a negative one, he will finish his material encasement and enter into the spiritual sphere. When he is fully established in this firm consciousness that ‘my connection with the material world will be injurious to me,’ he will then relinquish his body and go away to the spiritual sky. That is vidvat-sannyasa.

There is also narottama-sannyasa:

 

yah svakat parato veha

jata-nirveda atmavan

hrdi krtva harim geyat

pravrajet sa narottamah

 

In the narottama system of sannyasa, one has realized the presence of or existence of God within his heart, and thinking of Him, he leaves his present engagement and duties of the household and remains outside, anywhere and everywhere – under a tree or in a cave or wherever – careless of his physical needs. He does not immediately relinquish his body, but he takes whatever food he gets and when he does not get any food he fasts, and in this way he goes on. He leaves his household for good; that is narotttama-sannyasa.

And there are also different stages of sannyasa mentioned in the sastra: kuticaka, bahudaka, hamsa and paramahamsa progressively. But tridandi-sannyasa is when the sannyasi engages himself in the service of Godhead by spreading His message and doing some good to the public, and that characteristic is different. It is categorically different. The tridandi-sannyasi is not adopting an attitude or tactic of leaving all the engagements of this world as a result of becoming disgusted with its many temptations. Rather, he is engaging himself in the higher duty of the upper world through an agent, so his body has got utility. Remaining here, maintaining connection here, he is drawing some higher thing from above and distributing that in the environment. That is another conception of sannyasa, and it has positive value.

This is a similar engagement to that performed by the Lord’s closest associates. When an incarnation of God comes down, His favorite parsadas, His friends and servitors, are also sent by Him to come down to do some service to help Him. There are also sub-agents who have received some engagement from the higher agent, and by moving within this world in that capacity, they can earn more spiritual wealth than those who are very eager to disconnect completely from this material plane. They want to try to utilize their connection with this mundane plane to earn some substantial wealth of the upper house. So like the Lord’s parsadas, the tridandi-sannyasis want to work as God’s agents.”

Although members of the anti-devotional parties and their unwitting dupes attempt to condemn the sannyasa-asrama by using the verse from the Brahma-vaivarta Purana, the following verse from the same Purana has conveniently escaped their attention.

 

 

dandam kamandalum rakta-vastram matranca dharayet

nityam pravasi naikatra sa sannyasiti kirttitah

 

“A sannyasi accepts only a danda, water-pot, and saffron-cloth and resides near a village – this is the wealth of the sannyasa asrama.”(Brahma-vaivarta Purana 2.36.9)

In fact, throughout the vast body of Vedic literature, only one verse can be found wherein the sannyasa order is apparently forbidden in the age of kali. In all the other sastras that were written for the people of this present age a man is repeatedly urged to take up sannyasa.

 

 

brahmacari grhastho va mrtadaro vanecarah

jnatva samyak param-brahma tyaktva sangan-parivrajet

 

 

“After he has come to understand the nature of the Supreme, a student, a householder, or a forest-hermit should become detached and become a wandering mendicant.” (Smrti-sastra)

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura desired to reinstitute the system of daivi-varnasrama and with this in mind took up the tridanda of a sannyasi to preach the sublime message of Sri Caitanydeva all over the world. It is bewildering that one can claim to be a follower of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Svami Prabhupada, in the line of Srila Sarasvati Thakura and in the same breath imply that sannyasa has no value in today’s society!

Indeed, it is lamentable that in this age many men have taken up the garb of renunciation and later discarded it to enter family life. What is even more unfortunate is that when such persons cannot admit that the fault lies with themselves they instead vilify the sannyasa-asrama as being impractical, useless, or even dangerous in kali-yuga. Such a ‘sour-grapes’ philosophy betrays a significant lack of faith in Sri Guru, the sattvika-sastras, the Vaisnavas and Sri Caitanyadeva who has Himself accepted the sannyasa-asrama in the age of kali.

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura accepted sannyasa for the purpose of preaching Krsna consciousness all over the world and he passed that on to his disciples who in turn passed that on to their Godbrothers and disciples who in turn passed that on to their disciples, and who in turn passed that on to their disciples. Therefore the conclusion is that if a man wants to preach Krsna consciousness and serve his Gurudeva with all his energy then he should certainly take sannyasa. This is called sadhu-vrtti, following in the footsteps of great acaryas.

[Kulapavana]

 

Didn't you once agree that only "ekadanda sannyasa is forbidden"? I thought once I posted where I had read that sannyasa is forbidden in the Kali-yuga and you responded with only ekadanda sannyasa is forbidden? I don't even know what ekadanda sannyasa is and how it differs from any other kind of sannyasa so I could be wrong and if so I apologize in advance.

 

At one time I used to think that in the practical sense Vaishnava sannyasa was very different from ekadanda sannyasa. I'm not so sure about that anymore. There are far too many abuses of that asrama occuring on a daily basis not to take a hard look at that issue.

 

Of course if there is an absolutely exceptional case, Vaishnava sannyasa may be awarded to a qualified person, but what purpose does it serve? Can you not be a renounced person without wearing saffron? Can you not preach effectively in the West without being a sannyasi?

 

Sannyasa should only be awarded to devotees who are old in both age and experience in devotional service, who are brahmanas by nature, and who really want to leave the world behind. Otherwise it is almost bound to fail.

 

Vaishnavas are supposed to be uninterested in designations which feed the ego. Sannyasa is often simply one of such designations.

That is a very practical experience.

 

It makes zero difference to me if my guru is a sannyasi or a grihastha, as long as he has what it takes to bring me closer to Krsna. The same with one who gives Bhagavatam class in the temple. I have attended many painfully boring and thoroughly superficial classes given by sannyasis.

 

What is the point of wearing saffron in the West? Nowadays even a lot of devotees have little respect for sannyasis, given the history of our movement, what to speak of general public. At one time in India it was useful to have sannyasi preachers, but in the West such advantage is very debatable, but the risks are very, very real.

[Kulapavana]

 

“A sannyasi accepts only a danda, water-pot, and saffron-cloth and resides near a village – this is the wealth of the sannyasa asrama.”(Brahma-vaivarta Purana 2.36.9)

 

 

That is not how the sannyasa is practiced among the Iskcon devotees and it is the root cause of the problem. In Iskcon, most sannyasis are practically the royalty, in the sense of being rulers of men and living opulent, easy lifestyles.

 

You want to follow the shastra? Than become a REAL sannyasi, real tapasvi. Do not try to have it both ways.

 

[yogesh]

 

 

You want to follow the shastra? Than become a REAL sannyasi, real tapasvi. Do not try to have it both ways.

 

Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"><tbody><tr><td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by Beggar

“A sannyasi accepts only a danda, water-pot, and saffron-cloth and resides near a village – this is the wealth of the sannyasa asrama.”(Brahma-vaivarta Purana 2.36.9)

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Also They should have no property or bank balance. Whatever they receive as donation to be used to propagate the holy name and only accept very simple prasadam. Aim is to become fully dependent on Lord Krsna's mercy.

 

Please correct me But as I understand it The stages a person (should) go through is Brahmacharya, Grihast , Vanaprast and eventually Sannyas.

So the evolution goes something like this..

 

Starting with nothing i.e student (with dependence for support from parents) then accumulating wealth and property to maintain family life, then slowly transitioning to retired life (once all dependents are independent) and eventually Sanyas again becoming fully dependent this time on the mercy of the Lord.

 

Hare Krsna/Krishna

 

Jay Sirla Prabhupada

[Kulapavana]

 

Please correct me But as I understand it The stages a person (should) go through is Brahmacharya, Grihast , Vanaprast and eventually Sannyas.

So the evolution goes something like this..

 

Starting with nothing i.e student (with dependence for support from parents) then accumulating wealth and property to maintain family life, then slowly transitioning to retired life (once all dependents are independent) and eventually Sanyas again becoming fully dependent this time on the mercy of the Lord.

 

 

You go through these stages to burn out your material desires and learn humility. As you become old renunciation becomes easy.

[AncientMariner]

 

At one time I used to think that in the practical sense Vaishnava sannyasa was very different from ekadanda sannyasa. I'm not so sure about that anymore. There are far too many abuses of that asrama occuring on a daily basis not to take a hard look at that issue.

 

Of course if there is an absolutely exceptional case, Vaishnava sannyasa may be awarded to a qualified person, but what purpose does it serve? Can you not be a renounced person without wearing saffron? Can you not preach effectively in the West without being a sannyasi?

 

Sannyasa should only be awarded to devotees who are old in both age and experience in devotional service, who are brahmanas by nature, and who really want to leave the world behind. Otherwise it is almost bound to fail.

 

Vaishnavas are supposed to be uninterested in designations which feed the ego. Sannyasa is often simply one of such designations.

That is a very practical experience.

 

It makes zero difference to me if my guru is a sannyasi or a grihastha, as long as he has what it takes to bring me closer to Krsna. The same with one who gives Bhagavatam class in the temple. I have attended many painfully boring and thoroughly superficial classes given by sannyasis.

 

What is the point of wearing saffron in the West? Nowadays even a lot of devotees have little respect for sannyasis, given the history of our movement, what to speak of general public. At one time in India it was useful to have sannyasi preachers, but in the West such advantage is very debatable, but the risks are very, very real.

 

 

I have to agree with what you are saying here. It doesn't seem to be at all practical or useful in the west.

[Beggar]

 

What is the point of wearing saffron in the West? Nowadays even a lot of devotees have little respect for sannyasis, given the history of our movement, what to speak of general public. At one time in India it was useful to have sannyasi preachers, but in the West such advantage is very debatable, but the risks are very, very real.

In a way acaryas are like supreme court justices, they usually follow precedent and are reluctant to embrace change. Sannyasa was just introduced into the Guadiya line 85 years ago. It would be another revolutinary step to now abandon sannyasa and perhaps varnasrama for being impractical in the current society.

[AncientMariner]

 

In a way acaryas are like supreme court justices, they usually follow precedent and are reluctant to embrace change. Sannyasa was just introduced into the Guadiya line 85 years ago. It would be another revolutinary step to now abandon sannyasa and perhaps varnasrama for being impractical in the current society.

 

 

At the end of the Kali-yuga my guess is the final acarya of the Kali-yuga is going to have to change it all so much that the only requirement will be to chant one round of Hare Krishna in your whole life. Of course the final acarya I guess might just end up being the father of the Kalki avatar so who knows.

[Kulapavana]

 

In a way acaryas are like supreme court justices, they usually follow precedent and are reluctant to embrace change. Sannyasa was just introduced into the Guadiya line 85 years ago. It would be another revolutinary step to now abandon sannyasa and perhaps varnasrama for being impractical in the current society.

 

look, from a varnashrama point of view, giving sannyasa to people of sudra nature is a total lunacy. you cant have it both ways - you want varnashrama than FOLLOW varnashrama the way it was intended, and not pick and chose which parts of it you want to follow for your convenience. sannyasa was given only to brahmanas - period! that is varnashrama. you wan to follow varnashrama? how about the VARNA part of it? The fairytale that Vaishnavas like us are above the varnas is just that: a fairytale.

 

If Vaishnavas want to keep sannyasa as part of their order they better make sure only qualified people get it. Otherwise it is simply a disturbance to society and another hypocrisy. Most of Iskcon sannyasis are NOT sannyasis at all in any true sense of this term. Saraswatas criticize caste goswamis but they created another edition of the same fake category: "caste swamis" - with big bank accounts and extravagant (for a renunciate) lifestyle. I'm not sure which is worse.