Material time and space, eternal?

[Ananta Sesa]

Before the material universes are created again (after the 100 years of all the Brahma creators), is there any time and space before the creation?

 

Is the relative space-time eternal?

 

Does it exist even between the lives (also 100 years?) of the Brahmas?

 

If yes, then the "cloud" in the spiritual sky exists eternally!?!

 

[theist]

Everything is eternal because it's all Krsna's energy and He never loses control of it by it disappearing from existence (outside His control).

 

The question really is, is it eternally manifested? I don't know.

 

Nice to ponder such questions though.

[gHari]

Srimad-Bhagavatam 2.5.22:

 

<center>

kAlAd guNa-vyatikaraH

pariNAmaH svabhAvataH

karmaNo janma mahataH

puruSAdhiSThitAd abhUt

</center>

kAlAt--from eternal time; guNa-vyatikaraH--transformation of the modes by reaction; pariNAmaH--transformation; svabhAvataH--from the nature; karmaNaH--of activities; janma--creation; mahataH--of the mahat-tattva; puruSa-adhiSThitAt--because of the puruSa incarnation of the Lord; abhUt--it took place.

After the incarnation of the first puruSa [KAraNArNavazAyI ViSNu], the mahat-tattva, or the principles of material creation, take place, and then time is manifested, and in course of time the three qualities appear. Nature means the three qualitative appearances. They transform into activities.

PURPORT

By the omnipotency of the Supreme Lord, the whole material creation evolves by the process of transformation and reactions one after another, and by the same omnipotency, they are wound up again one after another and conserved in the body of the Supreme. KAla, or time, is the synonym of nature and is the transformed manifestation of the principles of material creation. As such, kAla may be taken as the first cause of all creation, and by transformation of nature different activities of the material world become visible. These activities may be taken up as the natural instinct of each and every living being, or even of the inert objects, and after the manifestation of activities there are varieties of products and by-products of the same nature. Originally these are all due to the Supreme Lord. The VedAnta-sUtras and the BhAgavatam thus begin with the Absolute Truth as the beginning of all creations (janmAdy asya yataH [sB 1.1.1]).

 

[Avinash]

Is material universe eternal?

[Rishi_L]

 

Is material universe eternal?

 

If this material universe (or perhaps any material universe) is continually undergoing cycles of manifestation and unmanifestation, then yes, it is eternal in accordance with that perspective. And if, when maha-pralaya occurs for this material universe at the end of 'our' Brahma's lifetime, another material universe is manifested in the same akash allotted for 'this' current material universe in which we all currently dwell by another jiva holding the position and title of 'Brahma' (and this process has neither a beginning nor an end), then this material universe (and perhaps ALL material universes) are eternal in that particular sense.

[Ananta Sesa]

 

Srimad-Bhagavatam 2.5.22:

 

<CENTER>

kAlAd guNa-vyatikaraH

pariNAmaH svabhAvataH

karmaNo janma mahataH

puruSAdhiSThitAd abhUt

</CENTER>

kAlAt--from eternal time; guNa-vyatikaraH--transformation of the modes by reaction; pariNAmaH--transformation; svabhAvataH--from the nature; karmaNaH--of activities; janma--creation; mahataH--of the mahat-tattva; puruSa-adhiSThitAt--because of the puruSa incarnation of the Lord; abhUt--it took place.

 

After the incarnation of the first puruSa [KAraNArNavazAyI ViSNu], the mahat-tattva, or the principles of material creation, take place, and then time is manifested, and in course of time the three qualities appear. Nature means the three qualitative appearances. They transform into activities.

 

 

PURPORT

 

By the omnipotency of the Supreme Lord, the whole material creation evolves by the process of transformation and reactions one after another, and by the same omnipotency, they are wound up again one after another and conserved in the body of the Supreme. KAla, or time, is the synonym of nature and is the transformed manifestation of the principles of material creation. As such, kAla may be taken as the first cause of all creation, and by transformation of nature different activities of the material world become visible. These activities may be taken up as the natural instinct of each and every living being, or even of the inert objects, and after the manifestation of activities there are varieties of products and by-products of the same nature. Originally these are all due to the Supreme Lord. The VedAnta-sUtras and the BhAgavatam thus begin with the Absolute Truth as the beginning of all creations (janmAdy asya yataH [sB 1.1.1]).

 

 

 

If Maha-Vishnu is lying in Causal Ocean in yoga-nidra sleeping for eternity, without ever waking up, then that should mean that the material space (the cloud in the spiritual sky) is also eternal!?

[Ananta Sesa]

 

If this material universe (or perhaps any material universe) is continually undergoing cycles of manifestation and unmanifestation, then yes, it is eternal in accordance with that perspective. And if, when maha-pralaya occurs for this material universe at the end of 'our' Brahma's lifetime, another material universe is manifested in the same akash allotted for 'this' current material universe in which we all currently dwell by another jiva holding the position and title of 'Brahma' (and this process has neither a beginning nor an end), then this material universe (and perhaps ALL material universes) are eternal in that particular sense.

 

If all the Universes dissolve when Maha-Vishnu inhales, and goes into His body, then the question is, is there still manifest during His inahalation the material space?

 

If not, that would mean that there is no material world (no material space and time) what so ever during the inhalations of Maha-Vishnu...?

[koolhead]

i dont know... but why do people take some verses from some religios book or from some religious guru's speech to explain this and that...???

 

Cant we explain things by pure logical ideas excepted by normal human minds?

 

 

If we really want to find the truth about our universe then there are only two ways.

 

1> make a space shipt to explore universe and its secrets. Share and teach your findings (to others) which are supported by evidences

 

2>Do meditation and enter the world of higher energy and find answers to your questions. Share but do not teach your findings to others as every human must BELIEVE others and EXPLORE himself rather that just BELIEVE others.

[gHari]

I've always had the impression that there is no material space or time when the universes are wound up; they'd become manifest again when a new mahat-tattva manifests.

[Inedible]

 

Is material universe eternal?

 

I don't know. Are you planning a really long journey? It is enough to know that you won't live long enough to get to the edge if there is an outer limit.

[Avinash]

If material universe is eternal, then material space and time are eternal. If material universe is not eternal, then material space and time are also not eternal. Spacetime continuum is a part of universe.

[Avinash]

Science says universe is expanding at an accelerating rate. But, if Maha Vishnu has to inhale it some day, then it should contract.

[Rishi_L]

 

Science says universe is expanding at an accelerating rate. But, if Maha Vishnu has to inhale it some day, then it should contract.

 

Yes, but if that same brahmanda which is inhaled by Maha-Vishnu is also eventually exhaled again (and thus remanifested) and this process is beginningless and endless, then that material universe is eternal because there was no starting point for when it first sprung into being nor will there be any ending point for when it will cease to exist.

[LoveroftheBhagavata]

 

Before the material universes are created again (after the 100 years of all the Brahma creators), is there any time and space before the creation?

 

Is the relative space-time eternal?

 

Does it exist even between the lives (also 100 years?) of the Brahmas?

 

If yes, then the "cloud" in the spiritual sky exists eternally!?!

 

The srishti-lila (pastime of creation) of God takes place when Lord Maha-Vishnu wishes to display this specific opulence of His. By His mere glance, the mahat-tattva (the sum total of His external potency) becomes energised and the entire cosmic situation is placed under the jurisdiction of an expansion of Lord Sadashiva whom the Brahma-samhita refers to as Shambhu, and who represents the glance of Bhagavan Vishnu. Together with His consort Mahamaya (Durgaji), Lord Shambhu presides over the material energy which then undergoes several further transformations and manifests as unlimited brahmandas/universes floating in the spiritual karana-samudra/causal ocean, and into each of which the Godhead expands as Garbhodakashayi-Vishnu/Padmanabha/Hiranyagarbha, from Whose navel a lotus stems, and from which Lord Brahma is born. Finally, both Lord Narayana and Lord Shiva manifest additional expansions in order to manage the cosmos that is engineered by Brahma from the creative shakti of Bhagavan. As Kshirodakashayi-Vishnu, the Lord takes charge of sattva-guna and is the all-pervading Paramatma, in addition to His acting as the preserver of the world. As for Mahadeva Shiva, the form of His that manages tamo-guna and destroys the creation at the time of pralaya is an expansion of His primordial forms of Sadashiva and Shambhu.

 

This lila of the Supreme takes places for countless lives of Brahma, and the duration of any one brahmanda/universal globe is said to equate with one breath of Maha-Vishnu. Hence, 311 trillion or so of our years would be equal to a breath of the Godhead - no wonder He is named the Great Vishnu. Shastra also tells us that, at times, the Lord simply wants to enjoy Himself in divine sleep / yoga-nidra, and at such times there is no creation pastime unfolding. However, Lord Vishnu's timescale is so inconceivable to us tiny lots that, to all intents and purposes, one might as well say that the material universes are being brought into being and thereafter withdrawn forever. Many of us cannot even think in terms of a kalpa (a single day of Brahmaji), let alone a maha-kalpa/lifetime of Brahma), so it would be the height of futility to start contemplating how to quantify the timeframe of Maha-Vishnu, Who is the cause and source of innumerable brahmandas. In brief, this is what scripture says about the genesis of the material realm. However, this is a level of reality that lies completely beyond the purview of the human mind and senses, and as Sukadeva Gosvami would have it - the material cosmic manifestation is ultimately indescribable, and nobody would be capable of fully describing it, even if granted a life span as long as that of Brahma.

 

Radhe Radhe

[gHari]

Portion of the purport to Srimad Bhagavatam 2.6.42:

 

So the temporary creation of the material manifestation is an exhibition of the material energy of the Lord, and to manage the whole show the Supreme Lord incarnates Himself as the KAraNArNavazAyI ViSNu just as a magistrate is deputed by the government to manage affairs temporarily. This KAraNodakazAyI ViSNu causes the manifestation of material creation by looking over His material energy (sa aikSata). In the first volume of this book we have already discussed to some extent the explanation of the verse jagRhe pauruSaM rUpam. The duration of the illusory play of material creation is called a kalpa, and we have already discussed the creation's taking place in kalpa after kalpa.

By His incarnation and potential activities, the complete ingredients of creation, namely time, space, cause, result, mind, the gross and subtle elements

and their interactional modes of nature--goodness, passion and ignorance--and then the senses and their reservoir source, the gigantic universal form as the second incarnation GarbhodakazAyI ViSNu, and all living beings, both moving and standing, which come out of the second incarnation, all became manifested. Ultimately, all these creative elements and the creation itself are but potential manifestations of the Supreme Lord; nothing is independent of the control of the Supreme Being. This first incarnation in the material creation, namely KAraNArNavazAyI ViSNu, is the plenary part of the original Personality of Godhead, SrI KRSNa, described in the Brahma-saMhitA (5.48) as follows:

 

 

yasyaika-nizvasita-kAlam athAvalambya

 

jIvanti loma-vilajA jagad-aNDa-nAthAH

 

viSNur mahAn sa iha yasya kalA-vizeSo

 

govindam Adi-puruSaM tam ahaM bhajAmi

 

 

All the innumerable universes are maintained only during the breathing period of MahA-ViSNu, or KAraNArNavazAyI ViSNu, who is only a plenary part of Govinda, the original Personality of Godhead Lord KRSNa.

 

 

[Ananta Sesa]

 

I've always had the impression that there is no material space or time when the universes are wound up; they'd become manifest again when a new mahat-tattva manifests.

 

But then in that case, how can one say that there goes by 100 years before a new Brahma with 100 yrs of life comes along?

[gHari]

 

But then in that case, how can one say that there goes by 100 years before a new Brahma with 100 yrs of life comes along?

Yes, that is interesting, one for the Causal Ocean to reveal.

 

Perhaps the timing for a new mahat-tattva to be created is determined in the transcendental realm by the autocratic will of Sri Krsna, Sri Narayana. Our only estimate of the interval is the length of time our current Brahma enjoys.

[Ananta Sesa]

 

Yes, that is interesting, one for the Causal Ocean to reveal.

 

Perhaps the timing for a new mahat-tattva to be created is determined in the transcendental realm by the autocratic will of Sri Krsna, Sri Narayana. Our only estimate of the interval is the length of time our current Brahma enjoys.

 

But since pradhana still is manifested, it must mean that there always (for eternity) will be ome kind of "material cloud" in the spiritual sky, or?

[gHari]

http://vedabase.net/sb/3/26/10/en

[gHari]

SvarUpa DAmodara: One last question, this stone thing. Now as a devotee we know that matter is also eternal in the form of pradhAna, described in Third Canto in...

 

PrabhupAda: Yes. We have already explained, there are two energies. So if the energetic is eternal, the energy is also eternal. But the difference between the inferior and superior means one is manifested eternally and one is sometimes manifested, sometimes not manifested. That is inferior. The matter is sometimes manifested, sometimes not manifested. Just like the cloud. What is this cloud? Cloud is also manifestation of the energy of the sun, is it not? But it is sometimes manifested, sometimes not manifested. But the sunshine is always manifested. So that is the difference between the inferior and superior. Both of them are energies of the sun. But the cloud is sometimes manifested, sometimes not manifested. But the sunshine is always manifested. But as energy, they are coming from the same source. [break] ...but matter is sometimes manifested, sometimes not manifested. Therefore it is inferior. And life is always manifested, therefore superior. I am soul, I am eternal. But this body is manifested now. It is existing eighty years or hundred years, but this body will be finished, finished forever. Then again another matter manifests. But I am the soul, eternal, this body or that body. Na hanyate hanyamAne zarIre [bg. 2.20]. He is ever-manifest, either this body or that body, it doesn't matter. That is eternity. That is superior energy.

 

=========

 

In the above analogy I think Srila Prabhupada parallels sunshine with pradhana, and clouds with the space, time and matter of prakrti.

[Malati dasi]

Ananta sesa: But then in that case, how can one say that there goes by 100 years before a new Brahma with 100 yrs of life comes along?

 

Anata sesa: But since pradhana still is manifested, it must mean that there always (for eternity) will be some kind of "material cloud" in the spiritual sky, or?

 

I suppose so. Think of this material universe as material universes, simultaneously manifesting and unmanifesting and think of time as circular and NOT linear (as in present, past, future time or like, event sucession after another) and maybe we can understand it a little bit.

 

Satyanarayan das of Jiva Institute have a nice explantion about this, though I can't remember the reference.

 

 

 

 

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