Where does the caste system and Vaishnavism stand today In 2008?

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Where does the caste system stand today?

 

 

 

 

Just because I have Brahmin thread or born into a Brahmin family,

does that make me Brahmin and better that everyone

else?

 

 

 

 

What would the world be like if ISKCON'S Hari Sauri model of Varna ashama

dharma was implemented now founded on Vaishavism?

 

 

 

 

And how can we protect ourselves in todays revitalization of Krishna Consciosness from personality sanyasi cults, gurus, power trippers and dictatorial leaders who had also, long, long long ago destroyed the purity of Vedic culture?

 

 

 

• Brahmin – A person who is literate in Vedas and Vedic Science
  
• Kshatriya - A person who protects and fight for the a kingdom/country
  
• Vaishya – A person involved in running in trade, agriculture.
  
• Shudra – A person who works for others.

 

 

 

How do you make the above real without imitating?

 

 

 

How do you become a real Vaishnava

 

 

without imitation or acting?

 

 

[gHari]

Yesterday on an old Ed Sullivan show I saw a dog act with trained poodles wearing costumes hopping around on their hind legs looking like humans.

 

I realized that they weren't humans but were just behaving like that because they had been trained. They really just wanted to receive their treat, some food that would come at the end of the show.

 

How much does devotion parallel this dog act? What are the motivations behind what we do? It's a humbling question if we dare to ask it.

 

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[bhaktajan]

This is the correct understanding:

 

Brahmin – A person who uses only his brain [intellectualist, an Intelligentsia] --as a means of making a living [vocation].

 

Kshatriya - A person who administrates the functioning of commercial, legistlative and civic affairs--as a means of making a living [vocation].

 

Vaishya – A person who is a merchant; salesman; buisnessman; manufacturer; contractor--as a means of making a living [vocation].

 

Shudra – A person who is an artisan; journeyman; craftsperson; artist; musician; dancer --as a means of making a living [vocation].

 

ys,

Bhaktajan

 

[if this reflects on how you were not accecpted into your first choice for your college entrance application--don't cry!!!! Do not cry if this means you should go study elsewhere--there are plenty of other fish tanks in the world].

 

PS:

Why do most of these posting seem like covert efforts to propagate mis-information, ie: Christians, Muslims and independent de-programers (Rtvik & IRM'ers) saying in-direct derogatory statements against a monastic order designed for monks to learn proper ettiquete for future civic welfare.

 

If there are ass-holes [baying hounds] in Iskcon they will be evacuated--don't cry! They will be evacuated and then you can attend to your real heart-felt concerns [what ever in hell that may be].

[Sarva gattah]

bhaktajan we are talking about making Vaishnavism the solid foundation of any future Varna Asram society.

 

For that to be REAL, their must be REAL leadership in a solid ISKCON structure to be an example for all new devotees.

 

The analogy ghari has shown us is really saying any fool and idiot can 'act' or 'pretend' to be a sanyasi and guru as we have all seen in the resent past and is still going on, but for ISKCON to be successful, those who are leaders and Gurus, must be qualified.

 

We must always learn from the bogus guru system leadership of 1980s - Also don't pretend the 'imitation years and tears' did not happen, it is a part of ISKCONS growing pains and growth to one day become a mature world power for Lord Caitanya

 

 

A proposal for improving ISKCON’s organisational structure

 

 

 

By Krishna-dharma das

 

 

 

An alternative organisational system for protecting ISKCON’s institutional and spiritual integrity.

 

A conflict between institutional and spiritual authority

As we all know, currently ISKCON is facing many problems. I feel that our current organisational structure exacerbates many of these problems. At present, as I see it, ISKCON authority is divided into institutional and spiritual authority.

Institutional authority lies with the GBC and Temple Presidents. But the GBC delegates its spiritual authority to ISKCON approved gurus. This delegation of spiritual power is effected through what is known as the ‘no objection’ certification, which is awarded to devotees by the GBC when they consider them fit to accept disciples.

This is not meant to be an appointment to the post of guru, but nevertheless this is how it effectively works. Within ISKCON there are a number of devotees who are known as ‘ISKCON Approved Gurus’. No one else is generally seen, as a guru, certainly not an initiating guru, and these devotees are set quite apart from everyone else within ISKCON.

I believe that by approving gurus ISKCON has confused its lines of authority. The approved gurus often communicate with and instruct their disciples directly, or through their own senior disciples rather than through ISKCON’s managerial lines of accountability.

This not only creates two lines of authority which sometimes conflict with each other, but it also makes it very difficult to ensure accountability from gurus and their senior disciples, as they lie outside of the institutional structure.

Hence there is a need for voluminous, but ultimately ineffectual, laws. The gurus are extremely difficult to regulate, as their disciples as ultimate spiritual authorities view them.

Institutional authority is rarely, if ever, seen by disciples as being above that of their guru.

And because the gurus are seen as ‘ISKCON gurus’, their authority is effectively seen as ISKCON authority. This makes management very difficult indeed for those who are not approved gurus. Certainly it is most difficult to assert any spiritual authority for such devotees, which of course is rather a problem in a spiritual movement like ISKCON.

This system also contributes to cynicism and mutual disrespect amongst our senior preachers, as there are no clear and objective criteria by which authorised gurus are created. When new devotees come to the movement, the importance of diksha tends to be emphasised, rather than the importance of receiving sound training in scripture.

They are usually encouraged to give their allegiance to one of the many diksha “camps” in ISKCON, rather than to learn from the local preachers who represent the institution, accepting such preachers as siksha authorities.

As I already mentioned, diksha gurus are invariably set apart from other preachers and put on high pedestals, surrounded by an aura of mystical superiority. By inference, other non-initiating preachers are generally seen as being impotent to teach the science of Krishna consciousness, and their association is regarded as not very valuable. I feel this has contributed to many problems, some of which are as follows.

1. Because there are two lines of authority within ISKCON - one from the GBC and one from the authorised gurus - ISKCON preachers often act in conflict with each other rather than synergistically.

2. Because diksha gurus are put on such high pedestals, any misbehaviour on their part seriously damages ISKCON’s reputation.

3. Because the emphasis is put on taking initiation from the “advanced” (no offence meant) and often charismatic diksha guru in ISKCON, rather than on the less mystical process of receiving siksha or scriptural training from familiar - but less mysterious - devotees, ISKCON devotees are susceptible to changing their allegiance to devotees outside the institution in search of an even more advanced and charismatic diksha guru, at least in their perception.

4. The no-objection certificate is deemed necessary to protect new devotees who lack discrimination. This approach creates a ’self-fulfilling prophecy’ as ISKCON leaders rely on the no-objection certificate to protect new devotees, and therefore do not provide thorough and systematic education in scripture by which devotees could become qualified to discriminate for themselves.

Consequently, ISKCON devotees are often immature in their scriptural knowledge and understanding, and thus easy prey to deviant philosophies such as ritvik-vada.

5. Where the authority is divided into institutional and spiritual, it becomes fertile ground for politics.

6. Because of unclear lines of authority and accountability, many competent preachers feel discouraged to preach.

However, if the GBC were to remove the no-objection certificate, could ISKCON protect its institutional and spiritual integrity?

Many devotees fear not, but I believe if we adopt the correct organisational model then ISKCON’s institutional and spiritual integrity could be much better served than at present.

I don’t believe I have all the answers. I am mainly trying to point out that we need to find a better way. Once we are convinced of that, then maybe by mature discussion among many senior devotees we can develop the whole picture. End of part 1

[raghu]

 

Where does the caste system stand today?

 

Today's "caste system" is loosely based on varnashrama dharma but also contains many new elements that are not a part of the varnashrama system. For example, there are many subcastes of the brahmin caste, and sub-subcastes, etc. Similarly there are other castes that are thought to be subcastes of one varna or another. Sastras recognize only four varnas - brahmana, kshatriya, vaishya, and shudra. Sastra also recognize a fifth class of individuals - people living outside of Vedic civilization - who do not fall into any of the previous four categories. Note that "Dalit" is not a Vedic designation and, like many of the modern caste designations, has largely come into play for political reasons.

 

The first three varnas - brahmanas, kshatriyas, and vaishyas, are expected to take up initiation and study of the sastras from a very young age. Unfortunately due to the near total breakdown of the educational system, in which traditional gurukulas have been replaced by secular English-medium schools, this is not happening in most cases. While gurukulas teach children to revere the Vedas and to uphold dharma, secular schools specialize in teaching children all sorts of derogatory theories about Hindus/Hinduism/Vedic culture that are promoted by Christian, Muslim, and socialist scholars.

 

Just because I have Brahmin thread or born into a Brahmin family,

 

does that make me Brahmin

 

 

 

 

 

If you are born into a Brahmin family then you are expected to take up the role of a Brahmin which means initiation and study of the Veda. You will be called a Brahmin by society whether you do this or not. It therefore behooves you to live up to your duties.

 

 

 

 

 

and better that everyone else?

 

 

 

 

 

I don't know what you mean by "better that everyone else" since there are different standards by which one would compare and judge different people. In my experience, this sort of vague language is usually used to start fights that invariably involve brahmin-bashing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

If we are comparing individuals according to spiritual maturity, then a traditionally-raised brahmin will generally be "better" than members of other varnas. After all, he specializes in studying the Vedas and living a simple life. On the other hand, if you are comparing according to prowess, kshatriyas are "better," etc.

 

 

 

What would the world be like if ISKCON'S Hari Sauri model of Varna ashamadharma was implemented now founded on Vaishavism?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Why not just follow varnashrama as it is described in the sastras?

 

 

 

 

 

And how can we protect ourselves in todays revitalization of Krishna Consciosness from personality sanyasi cults, gurus, power trippers and dictatorial leaders who had also, long, long long ago destroyed the purity of Vedic culture?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Which "personality sanyasi cults, gurus, power trippers and dictatorial leaders" are you referring to who long, long ago destroyed the purity of Vedic culture? Historically speaking, Vedic culture was destroyed by repeated foreign invasions, culminating in the British occupation of India in which Indian education was subverted to British and Christian political interests.

 

 

 

• 
  

Brahmin – A person who is literate in Vedas and Vedic Science

Kshatriya - A person who protects and fight for the a kingdom/country
Vaishya – A person involved in running in trade, agriculture.
Shudra – A person who works for others.

How do you make the above real without imitating?

 

 

 

You simply do what Hindus have been doing for centuries - follow your duties as ordained by sastra and dedicate the fruits of your labor to Sri Vishnu.

 

 

How do you become a real Vaishnava

 

 

 

 

without imitation or acting?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The first step to becoming a real Vaishnava is to accept initiation from a qualified Vaishnava guru. The second step is to follow that guru's instructions.

 

[Sarva gattah]

Raghu prabhu, everything you have said I agree with, except one point below

 

 

Which "personality sanyasi cults, gurus, power trippers and dictatorial leaders" are you referring to who long, long ago destroyed the purity of Vedic culture? Historically speaking, Vedic culture was destroyed by repeated foreign invasions, culminating in the British occupation of India in which Indian education was subverted to British and Christian political interests.

 

I was referring to long long ago, when leaders of Vedic culture became corrupt, (not everyone as the Parampara disciplic chain of succession shows us)

 

Such corruption going on over thousands of years, ALLOWED the invading tribes to plunder, rape and steal in the land of Bharatavarsa. The fall of the Vedic culture caused that, allowed it to happen

Prabhupada once said that ISKCON can NEVER ever be destroyed by outside forces, but it CAN be destroyed from within.

Similarly Prabhupada also explained that the Vedic culture was NOT destroyed by those without, that is not possible, it was first weakened from within due to the fall down of the Brahmins, the priestly class and teachers who exploited rather than lead the rest of Vedic culture.

Their principles became so weakened that they fought amongst themselves as the Mahabharata tells us. Then these degraded 'Brahmins' allowed the eating of meat and Lord Buddha came telling everyone to avoid the Brahmins and their corrupt Vedic culture

Due to this weakened degraded state, the outside earthly primitive tribes were able to invade and conquer much of the now corrupt Vedic culture

The corrupt Vedic system is the cause of all invasions including the most recent Muslim invasion of the 8th Century and the British occupation from the 16th century.

 

Degradation and exploitation begins from within, not without

[Kulapavana]

is anyone who gets a second initiation in Iskcon a brahmana? of course not. they are simply "dvija" - twiceborn. It has absolutely nothing to do with their varna.

 

sannyasis don't manage and don't have big bank accounts - what is happening in Iskcon is a total travesty of the varnashram system.

 

the varnashrama system starts with establishing clear order in therms of BOTH varnas and ashramas. just like there must be no ambiguity about the arhramas there must be no ambiguity about person's varna.

[bhaktajan]

 

 

We must always learn from the bogus guru system leadership of 1980s - Also don't pretend the 'imitation years and tears' did not happen, it is a part of ISKCONS growing pains and growth to one day become a mature world power for Lord Caitanya . . .

 

"Varnasrama-dharma":

 

"Varna-ashrama-dharma" is the nomenclature for types of work & duties. The world is already divided into these catagories--it is already 'Real'--there is no manufacturing of manipulating it, just recognizing it as it already really exists, in flux.

 

......................................................................................

Varna = [lit. color], occupational work, duties, civic responsibilites. [brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya, Shudra are all titles of catagories of workers.]

 

Ashrama = [lit. shelter], Brahmacarya, Grihasta, Vanaprasta, and Sannyasa are all sequential stages of life all of the above Varna(s) proceed through from childhood Brahmacarya to old age Vanaprasta.

 

Sannyasa is sought by people looking to live a life as a "dedicated monk who preaches to the greater world outside of his comfortable retirement bungalow".

......................................................................................

 

 

A person seeks the title of sannyasa on his own volition:

--as a status symbol, or,

--as a final test of faith in Krishna promise to protect the monk, or,

--as a fullfillment of one's obiedence to his own sastric tradition.

 

If a sannyasa is to be faulted for falling down then the faultfinder neglects the words of Krishna in the Gita where Krishna addresses the contingency observance for a fallen master of spiritual life.

 

Those who have fallen from sannyasa in Iskcon's (as yet, after 40 years, still considered) 'formulative years' did so for reason we know all to well: Lust. Little lust, big lust, middle lust, micro & macro lust, subtle lust, gross lust and even stupid-stupid lust. Youthfull ethusiasm by long time Brahmacaryis were Iskcon's canidates who had applied for Sannyasi Vows.

There is no oversite commitee for allowing one to ask for initiation [from another established sannyasi] into the sannyasi order.

 

He, who is with out lust, have already thrown many stones repeatdly!!

 

I could be a guru. You could self-elect to be a guru. But no! "He" has been elected to be a Guru and we are waiting to cut off his ego lest he steal our investment of respect and veneration in him.

 

YET, WE ARE BEING ROBBED BY ALL SORTS OF KARMI MAFIOSO FROM ALL SIDES. WITH ONE HAND WE DE-SPOIL OUR OWN HOUSE WHILE ALL AROUND US WE ARE BEING CHOKED BY WHITE COLLAR/STREET-LEVEL/GOVERNMENT-LEVEL/GEOLOGICAL/POLITICAL/COMMERCIAL CHEATING BY MISCRANTS--AND YOU PROPOSE THAT THE REMEDIES ARE TO BE FOUND IN POLICING RENUNCIATES. --Ha Ha Ha!

 

Retired elders being guided by Rolling stones while they worry about un-employment and the price of bread.

 

Best regards,

bhaktajan

[Sarva gattah]

 

If a sannyasa is to be faulted for falling down then the faultfinder neglects the words of Krishna in the Gita where Krishna addresses the contingency observance for a fallen master of spiritual life. bhaktajan

 

Yeah right

 

"How fortunate for leaders that men do not think. If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed. The art of leadership consists in consolidating the attention of the people against a single adversary and taking care that nothing will split up that attention. Demoralize others from within by surprise, terror, sabotage, fear and assassination to submit. This is the war of the future" Adolf Hitler

 

"Vedanta means ultimate knowledge. Knowledge is never perfect unless one comes to the point of understanding Krishna. To remain in Krishna Consciousness is actual understanding of Vedanta. If we are always afraid of our mistakes, Krishna will save us from all such misgivings and even if we imperceptibly commit some mistake, He will forgive us. But we should be always very careful not to commit mistakes". Srila Prabhupada

 

"If a so-called spiritual master accepts a disciple for his personal benefit or for material gain, the relationship between the spiritual master and the disciple turns into a material affair, and the spiritual master becomes like a smarta-guru". Srila Prabhupada

 

"There are many caste goswamis who professionally create some disciples who do not care for them or their instructions. Such spiritual masters are satisfied simply to get some material benefits from their disciples. Such a relationship is condemned by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, who calls such spiritual masters and disciples A SOCIETY OF CHEATERS AND CHEATED". - Srila Prabhupada Chaitanya Charitamrita, Madhya Lila 24.330, Purport

[bhaktajan]

You have not lost all for the sake of the mission. Those who have fallen by the wayside shall be delivered. Those who have been cheated are taught a lesson that must educate them as to the avidya half of the equation.

 

Best regards to your efforts to do the math on your own,

Bhaktajan

 

PS: I need not quote the Nazi paraganda logic to know who wins the war and who ain't fooling who.

 

Be thankfull for those who went before you.

 

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[Sarva gattah]

 

 

A proposal for improving ISKCON’s organisational structure part 2

By Krishna-dharma das

 

Here then is my attempt to explore another paradigm.

Strategic Planning

Here is a standard model for developing a strategic plan in any organization:

Purpose

Strategy

Organisational structure

Personnel

Purpose:

Before we can define what type of organisational structure and mechanisms are best for ISKCON we need to be clear about ISKCON’s primary purpose. If I were asked to express the purpose of ISKCON in my own words, this is how I would put it:

ISKCON’s primary purpose is to systematically educate people in the proper understanding of Srila Prabhupada’s books and the proper application of that knowledge.

That is to say, I believe we should first interest people in Srila Prabhupada’s books (i.e. preach), then we should have programmes whereby they can be systematically educated in them. This training must give people more than just rote knowledge; we need to give them a sound grasp of the principles embodied in the books, with a view to empowering then to make correct decisions in their lives.

Strategy:

If we agree on this as ISKCON’s primary purpose, then we need to discuss what strategy is best to achieve this purpose. Once we have decided on a strategy we can begin to decide what type of organisation would best facilitate the strategy.

When it comes to strategy, I certainly don’t pretend to have everything worked out, but because I am hoping that we will all become convinced of the need to change our present paradigm, I will make some attempt to express my own perception of a good strategy.

1. I believe our strategy should encourage qualified devotees to develop centres in every town and village. These devotees should be viewed as siksha gurus. I list below, under ‘Organisational Structure’, some of the responsibilities I envisage them accepting.

2. I also believe that a good strategy must include some sound system for ensuring easy access to good scriptural training for these preachers. At present, devotees in the U.K. have to go to India for 4 months if they want any sound scriptural training.

3. The strategy should also mention all the different areas and skills where we feel training is required. For example, do our preachers need training in sastra only, or do they also require training in communication skills, conflict resolution, etc.?

4. The strategy should incorporate a system for ensuring institutional accountability so that local preachers do not become ‘loose canons.’

5. For the strategy to work I believe it is also important for us to emphasise the importance of siksha guru. Guru should be seen as the devotee who is giving us good scriptural training, care, and guidance. Diksha should be seen as the natural cementing of a sound siksha relationship.

6. I would also suggest that if diksha is to become the natural cementing of a sound siksha relationship, then we need to seriously consider lifting the current ban on initiating in the presence of one’s own diksha guru.

These are some basic suggestions for the things I consider most essential. Without doubt there are many more details that need to be considered, but the above would at least constitute a sound framework, in my view.

Organisational structure:

The organisational structure I envisage, based on the strategy I have in mind, is as follows:

GBC body

GBC representative

National GBC representative

Regional GBC representative

TP’s

TP’s department heads/assistants.

The GBC body are ISKCON’s parampara link to Srila Prabhupada. Their responsibility is to ensure the continued emphasis on teaching Srila Prabhupada’s books. In only fifty or so years from now there will be no direct initiates of Srila Prabhupada on the GBC. The GBC will be comprised of the initiated disciples of many different gurus.

What common allegiance will give any cohesion to the body at that time? If we are struggling now when all the GBC representatives have a personal allegiance directly to Srila Prabhupada, imagine the possible mayhem when everyone has a personal allegiance to someone different.

 

I therefore propose that the GBC’s common point of cohesion should be clearly established and articulated now as the responsibility to ensure systematic study and understanding of the principles in Srila Prabhupada’s books.

I envisage that their primary responsibilities should be:

1 To regularly meet together to study and discuss Srila Prabhupada’s books threadbare.

 

2 To establish appropriate standards for being a GBC representative. I suggest that they look for internal qualities rather than external status. I would therefore suggest that GBC posts be offered to devotees who exhibit at least the qualities of a brahmana as described in BG.18-42.

 

3 To choose competent National GBC representatives who could properly represent them in the different countries in their zones.

 

4 To facilitate and ensure that the national GBC representatives in their jurisdiction receive proper and adequate scriptural training commensurate with their level of responsibility.

 

5 To encourage and guide their National GBC representatives to seek and receive all the training required for executing their service.

 

6 To ensure there are proper appeal and grievance procedures in place that allow their National GBC representatives to have access to the GBC body in the event of any irresolvable misunderstandings.

 

7 To ensure that their National GBC representatives have similar grievance and appeal procedures in place for the benefit of the next level down in the organisation.

National GBC assistants assist their GBC representative by taking responsibility for one country. Unlike the GBC representative they would not need to go to GBC meetings every year. Rather they would be located in the country for which they are responsible. I envisage that their duties would largely comprise of:

a) Personal study and peer discussion of Srila Prabhupada’s books.

b) b) Facilitating and encouraging the spiritual development of the devotees in the next level of the organisation, i.e. the regional GBC representatives.

c) c) Choosing competent regional GBC representatives.

d) d) Fostering a team ethos between the regional GBC representatives in his or her care.

e) e) Encouraging and guiding the regional GBC representatives to acquire the appropriate professional skills required for executing their service.

f) f) Ensuring there are satisfactory grievance and appeal procedures available to the regional GBC representatives in the case of any irresolvable misunderstandings developing.

g) g) Ensuring there are good service contracts between his or herself and the regional GBC representatives, so that these can be referred to in the case of any disputes.

Regional GBC assistants take responsibility for a smaller region within a country on behalf of the National GBC. I envisage that their responsibilities would include:

a) Being easily accessible to the TPs within the region for which they are responsible.

b) b) Spending some portion of their time studying and discussing in the association of their National GBC representative and other Regional GBCs and some time studying and discussing in the association of the TP’s in their care.

c) c) Encouraging and facilitating the TPs in their care to achieve appropriate levels of scriptural competence.

d) d) Encouraging and guiding TPs in their care to acquire other skills appropriate for executing their service.

e) e) Ensuring that there are good service contracts for TPs.

f) f) Ensuring that there are satisfactory grievance and appeal procedures in place.

g) g) Developing a good team spirit between the TPs in his or her care.

The TPs are responsible for the preaching areas under their care. According to the size of the Temple they will either have department heads or a few assistants. In either case, I envisage that their duties would include:

a) Systematic education in sastra and all other areas necessary for their service.

b) Ensuring that the devotees directly in their care receive adequate and systematic scriptural training.

c) Ensuring that the devotees in their care receive proper training in the skills they require for executing their services.

d) Developing a team spirit amongst the devotees in their care.

e) Working with their team to develop good fundraising strategies, good reputation in the community and all other local preaching activities.

f) Ensuring that the devotees in their care are properly and happily situated in their ashrama.

g) Ensuring that the devotees in their care are properly engaged according to their respective abilities.

h) Encouraging and facilitating the involvement of congregational devotees in the mission.

i) i) Looking after all other areas of local management, such as providing satisfactory grievance and appeal procedures, service contracts, and a policy regarding residence in the temple ashrama.

Such a structure would facilitate regular and meaningful scriptural training and care from above, and accountability from below.

These, in my view, are the two most important principles. No more ‘loose cannons’, or devotees who hold great spiritual power as guru, but are not within any insititutional line of authority. And no one overloaded with too much responsibility. Each leader cares for and trains his immediate subordinates. Everyone is answerable to someone and cared for by someone.

Once our organisational structure is decided, along with appropriate responsibilities for the various posts, we can decide which person is best suited for the different positions in the organisation.

If we make our plans using this model (i.e. first agreeing on our purpose, then our strategy, then our organisational structure, then how our personnel fit into the organisation)

I feel we will make a significant contribution to reversing the current downward decline in ISKCON. Problems usually occur in an organization when the fancies and interests of its personnel, rather than determine its policies, strategies and organisation by the organisational purpose. This is sometimes called ‘mission drift’.

What about regulating initiations?

Currently we try to regulate devotees’ decisions about who they should accept as diksha guru. We tell them that being in ISKCON means they must take initiation from someone approved by the organisation.

In the model I am proposing, however, we would not try to control the situation in this way, i.e. by saying whom you can or cannot accept as guru.

 

Rather, from the very beginning we would stress the need for first developing proper discrimination on the basis of our books, and then we would make sure that we provide the necessary education for such discrimination to develop. End of part 2 by Krishna-dharma das

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

 

A proposal for improving ISKCON’s organisational structure part 3

 

 

 

By Krishna-dharma das

 

I propose that ISKCON’s institutional and spiritual authority be protected by its own institutional lines of accountability, and by service agreements for the posts within those lines.

One’s choice of diksha guru does not have to be an issue, provided these other criteria are satisfied. For example, if a devotee wants to be an ISKCON TP, we could first of all get a written agreement both from his initiating guru (if he has one) and from himself, that, for the purposes of his service, he is to accept the siksha of his Regional GBC representative.

His service contract could include this as a clause. Also as a part of his service contract, there would need to be a statement that his duty is to teach Srila Prabhupada’s books and other books approved by the GBC body.

So he would need to be well versed and appropriately qualified in his understanding of Srila Prabhupada’s books, and he would have to use only Srila Prabhupada’s books, or other books approved by ISKCON, as his teaching material.

This could be overseen and regulated on a local level by the Regional GBC rep, so that the integrity of ISKCON’s teachings is maintained. Though there would be no control of a devotee’s choice of initiating guru, there could still be careful regulation of devotees within the institution who wish to give initiation.

For example, if someone were to ask the GBC man for initiation, he could discuss the request with the GBC body. They could discuss with him the qualifications of the candidate, and his own ability to execute his responsibilities. This could happen for each request he personally receives.

Likewise, at every level of the institutional hierarchy, the siksha guru could confer with his own spiritual authority before accepting a request to give initiation. For example, if the TP were approached for initiation, he would discuss the request with his Regional GBC representative.

If a head of department were approached for initiation, he would discuss the request with his TP. Like this we could ensure the integrity and spiritual safety of our representatives, and make sure they do not get into a position where they are becoming victims to the allurements of name, fame, wealth, and illicit sex. Everything could be regulated locally in a very personal, and I believe much more effective, way than it is at present.

One point to note here: In our present system we have made virtual ’superheroes’ out of a few devotees by giving them the guru approval. This has led to them being approached for initiation by hundreds of devotees, whom they have felt somewhat obliged to accept.

However, if we stop naming individuals as diksha gurus, then the numbers approaching them will fall significantly. Requests for initiation will come only where genuine siksha relationships form. And this forming of natural relationships will be greatly assisted by the increased educational opportunities on offer in ISKCON.

 

 

We can make a difference

 

For us to succeed in developing a more effective organisational model, I feel we need to become convinced of a few things:

a) We are not powerless to improve ISKCON. We have possibly all found ourselves discussing ISKCON’s ills and lamenting that the problems are the responsibility of others. Leaders lament it is a follower problem, and followers lament it is a leader problem. Or we may lament that how ISKCON’s very existence is now being threatened by the ritviks, the ex-gurukulis, the abusers, followers of ‘non-ISKCON gurus’, etc. When we see ISKCON’s problems in those terms, we are powerless to do anything to help ISKCON, for we have no control over these people. But I believe we must all take some responsibility for ISKCON’s present plight, and thus it is within our power to make the necessary changes in ourselves to reverse that situation.

b) To effect change in ISKCON we need to operate as a team. I believe this is our greatest challenge. From my perception we are often ‘rugged individualists’. We have a vision, and then we roll up our sleeves and try to make it happen. The most capable may succeed, but the others fall by the wayside. We tend to have little patience for prolonged dialogue and consultation. We are quite often impatient when communicating with each other, not taking the time to properly understand the other’s position. After our meetings we frequently feel misunderstood, ’shot down in flames’, or simply ignored. Unless we address this tendency in ourselves, we will not be able to work together to effect change. We need to make time for consultation, for understanding others and helping others to understand what we are trying to contribute towards the solution. c) ISKCON’s problems arise from our current paradigms, which arise from an improper application of scriptural principles. Surely if everything were aligned with scriptural principles then we would not be experiencing so many problems.

c) Therefore if we ensure that our paradigms and practices are based on sound scriptural principles, then many of the problems we are currently experiencing will gradually cease to exist. The more closely our practical policies reflect a proper understanding of scriptural principles, the less likely that future crises will develop.

 

 

CULTURAL CHANGE

 

It is a widely accepted wisdom that for new strategies to be successfully executed within an organisation, they must be accompanied by deeper cultural changes. Here I would like to explore some aspects of ISKCON’s current culture that I feel we need to address if any attempt for institutional reform is to be successful.

Co-operation needs to be valued more than competition

For example; the question of rugged individualism, which I mentioned above. Why do we have this phenomenon in ISKCON? It is my belief that we encourage it by our culture of primarily recognising individual success. We gauge success and give esteem to individuals according to how ‘big’ they do.

How many books, how much funds collected, how many devotees or disciples made, etc. We publicly praise such things, thus reinforcing a culture of individual achievement, rather than one of cooperation and teamwork.

At present we have no organisational mechanism whereby these latter values are recognised and reinforced. In my view this would need to change. We need to value and appreciate devotees for their ability not only to succeed personally, but more so for their ability to help their subordinates succeed.

A devotee’s success would not then be gauged simply in terms of how many disciples he personally has, but rather in terms of how many of his siksha disciples, and disciples of his siksha disciples, are also successfully taking responsibility for disciples. Success would not be seen simply in terms of how learned he is, but how learned his subordinates are.

And good leadership would be gauged both in terms of how successfully one executes his own varnashrama duties, and also how well his subordinates execute their varnashrama duties.

We get what we value and feed.

If we constantly praise personal achievement, then everyone will always try to do big themselves, even at the cost of others not succeeding. But in my view, this culture is contaminated by materialistic mentaility. Though there is competition in the spiritual atmosphere, it is secondary to the primary principle of cooperation.

I remember asking one senior devotee if he would help me with the preaching in Manchester, and he replied, only half in jest, that he felt unable to, as it would be myself and not him who ‘got the score’.

I feel we should be aiming for an ethos where how “big” we do is not measured just in terms of our individual achievements, but also in terms of the achievements of devotees in our care. We need to institutionalise mechanisms whereby we can validate and encourage the mentality of cooperation. One such mechanism might be yearly personal reviews with one’s authority.

 

 

Dharma vs artha

 

At present we often value results over and above proper behaviour. If moral behaviour such as honesty threatens our results, then that behaviour will very likely be criticised as being “contaminated” by the mode of goodness. But I feel this mentality has contributed to the current crises in ISKCON.

We overlook bad behaviour, or even encourage it, if it helps us increase our results. But such results are not sustainable. Rather we need to value dharma, or proper behaviour over and above results. Dharma should never be sacrificed for artha. By proper adherence to dharma, we will in the long run get sustainable artha.

Training in dharma

As well as valuing the execution of dharma, there needs to be more emphasis on determining one’s dharma, and offering training in this area. Currently very little attention is given to this.

When devotees “join”, little or no attention is given to understanding their varna and guiding them to become properly situated in the correct ashrama. It seems we have one pervading value in ISKCON at present: “do big”.

Our first consideration is usually to get some immediate result from people, often justified in terms of ‘doing the needful’, although whether such engagement is appropriate for the individual is not given very much thought.

This problem is exacerbated by the present guru system, which so often places gurus and disciples at some distance from each other, and also often creates gurus with far more disciples than they can possibly guide in such a personal way.

But again, the temple authority is usually not seen as the spiritual authority, does not feel empowered in that area, and thus will probably not try to give such personal spiritual guidance to the devotees in his care.

The result has been a very high turnover of temple devotees, who so often go away disenchanted and feeling that no one really cared for them. If on the other hand we do offer appropriate guidance and training for devotees, giving them personal care and making sure they are properly situated, then they will surely be far more likely to become long term supporters of ISKCON. From dharma will come artha, but dharma must be our main goal, not artha.

Brahminical Qualifications for leaders:

For our leaders to be able to guide and train people in the correct execution of their individual dharmas, they need to be properly trained in scripture. As I understand it Srila Prabhupada wanted devotees to pass different levels of sastric qualification: Bhakti Sastri, Bhakti Vaibhava, and Bhakti Vedanta.

Very little has been done to realize this instruction, which probably shows how little we value its importance. Personally, I believe that for us to develop a new organisational model for ISKCON it needs to be accompanied by an emphasis on brahminical qualification. The greater one’s spiritual authority, the greater should be the minimum expectation of brahminical qualification.

For example, all GBCs might be expected to become Bhaktivedantas, all National GBCs to become Bhakti Sarvabhaumas, all regional GBCs to become Bhakti Vaibhavas, and all TPs to at least be Bhakti Sastris - or some such system. Not only would this give more respectability to their spiritual authority, but it would ensure they have the appropriate sastric wisdom to properly guide people in their care in the execution of their dharma.

The unequivocal acceptance of the need for professional training

At present I detect a polemic in ISKCON with regards to the value of professional training. For the paradigm I am proposing to work, I feel it would be necessary to unequivocally accept the importance for leaders in ISKCON to seek relevant professional training.

Such training need not be too time-consuming nor expensive. I have a Directory of Social Change training schedule in front of me, and the title of some of their one or two day workshops seem very relevant to our organisational needs. Here are some examples: “Develop and Implement Effective Appraisals”, “Managing for Managers”, “Raising Money from Companies”, “Performing under Pressure”, “”Developing Committed Volunteers: Supervision and Support”, “Effective Communications”, etc.

I know that at present, some devotees feel the “non-devotees” have nothing of value to teach us, but I am inspired by the adage Srila Prabhupada taught us to the effect that true wisdom is the ability to take gold from a dirty place, or knowledge from a fool.

ISKCON’s definition

As I state above, my view is that ISKCON is an educational institution. Indeed, in the seven purposes which Srila Prabhupada set down in 1966 when forming ISKCON’s first constitution, the first purpose is

“To systematically propagate spiritual knowledge to society at large and to educate all people in the techniques of spiritual life…”

ISKCON is meant for propagating spiritual knowledge with a view to educating people. That is the main business, in my understanding, and everything else is supportive of that.

I mention this as a cultural change, as it is my perception that ISKCON is very often perceived as a mini state or country. We feel we need to set up everything within our society that is seen within the greater society, starting with a government of ‘kshatriyas’, i.e. the GBC. I question this, and would argue that we should be primarily a society of brahmanas - at least that should be our core mission.

Of course, there will undoubtedly be many different types of people who come to Krishna consciousness, not all of them brahmanas. But I think that the most urgent work we need to do first of all is to get in place a structure that facilitates the educators, i.e. the brahmanas - then we can look at engagements for other classes, who after all will need to be educated in their duties. In any event, I am not convinced that ISKCON as a society will ever become the totality of greater society as a whole.

Conclusion

 

That then is my proposal, which I hope will serve as a useful basis for further discussion. I sincerely hope that by being so direct I have not offended anyone. If I have I hope you will have the kindness to forgive me, as I am speaking only out of a desire to improve ISKCON. I would welcome any feedback.

Krishna Dharma das

[bhaktajan]

"Improving ISKCON’s organisational structure"

By Krishna-dharma das

 

This should be read [copied and saved too] by everyone who cares about the success of Iskcon.

 

Thank you for posting it.

 

ys,

Bhaktajan

 

PS: I believe that we were originally in Vaikuntha and that we desired to see what it is like to be 'the lord of all we survey' and thus fell into the mahatattva and we have been taking repeated births in the material world since time immemorial until the 'covering' of false ego is removed by 're-linking' with our sva-rupa (original spiritual bodies) by way of Bhakti-yoga by way of the mercy of a Bonefide devotee of Krishna.

 

When I go to the temple I associate and chant and dance and take darshan etc in the company of other devotees--not in the company of Gurus, Sannyasis and High Priests. Taking prasadam is usually done in the company of hordes of people I have never been introduced to--so the usual association I get is with regular devotees of all levels of advancement, and this is most satisfying and enlightening and enlivening to me and I have no missgivings about it all.

 

 

[raghu]

 

I was referring to long long ago, when leaders of Vedic culture became corrupt, (not everyone as the Parampara disciplic chain of succession shows us)

 

As this is a generalization, it is hard to prove or debunk. If even two "leaders of Vedic culture" became "corrupt," then it grammatically supports the statement that "leaders of Vedic culture became corrupt." However, the common understanding of such a statement would be that a sizeable percentage or a majority became "corrupt." That being said:

 

1) What do you mean by "leaders of Vedic culture?" Are you referring to sannyasis, gurus, brahmins, or kshatriyas? Or someone else?

 

2) What is your definition of "corruption?" Are you referring to someone who converts to mayavada? who worships anya-devataH? eats meat? or something else?

 

3) What percentage (ballpark) figure of leaders do you estimate to have become "corrupt" (by your definition as outlined in #2), and what is your evidence to support such a statement?

 

I only ask these questions because in my experience, these kinds of statements sound suspiciously like the propaganda that Marxists and other anti-Hindu factions tirelessly preach, and which has become commonly accepted as truth without due consideration for facts and evidence. It is a given that any class of individuals will have some corrupt ones, but to make this as a blanket generalization there ought to be sufficient basis for the statement. Otherwise it is no different from hate speech.

 

If you want my opinion, I have observed a lot more corruption in ISKCON within the past 15 years than I have even half of the corruption their members have alleged to be present within other sampradayas.

 

 

Such corruption going on over thousands of years, ALLOWED the invading tribes to plunder, rape and steal in the land of Bharatavarsa. The fall of the Vedic culture caused that, allowed it to happen

 

What history books are you reading? There is not even a semblance of cause and effect in your statements above.

 

The fall of Vedic civilization was brought about by repeated Muslim invasions beginning in the 7th century followed by European imperialists who annexed Indian territory and used it for their own ends. There was no one India at that time - there were only multiple Indian kingdoms which shared some common culture but were often at war with each other (just as they were prior to Kali Yuga as documented in Mahabharata and other smritis). Furthermore, both the Muslims and the Europeans had a technological advantage in the form of muskets and cannon. The few Indian kingdoms which were able to obtain these had to do so through trade.

 

While the Muslims raped and plundered Hindu temples, it was the British who aimed at a policy of intellectual domination. Following MacCauly's policies, they were the ones who rewrote India's history and portrayed Vedic culture in a derogatory way, including much unfounded criticism of brahmanas which turned many Hindus away from Vedic culture. The fact that many Hindus continue to accept such ideas even implicitly testifies to the legacy of the British intellectual conquest.

 

The fall of Vedic culture was an inevitable result of contact with technologically and numerically superior aggressor civilizations. Saying that it was due to corruption in Vedic culture is begging the question.

[Sarva gattah]

 

The fall of Vedic civilization was brought about by repeated Muslim invasions beginning in the 7th century followed by European imperialists who annexed Indian territory and used it for their own ends. There was no one India at that time - there were only multiple Indian kingdoms which shared some common culture

 

No you are wrong in your understanding, the onset of Kali-yuga was brought on by the corruption of most of the Vedic culture and the leadership which includes cast Brahmins, sages, gurus, so called sadus.

 

 

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>The corruption within the Vedic culture was going on over thousands of years, bringing them down to the level of mundane primitive humans on the planets surface that ALLOWED invading barbaric uncivilized tribes to plunder, rape and gradually steal in the land of Bharatavarsa because of the weakened and compromised principles of Godly men. The fall of the Vedic culture caused that, allowed the devastation and ruin to happen, allowed the conquering animalistic primtive humans to invade</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

The above is very clear and very true; even my 12-year-old nephew can understand that this is how a great culture crashes into degradation.

 

<TABLE class=tborder cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR title="Post 1084995" vAlign=top><TD class=alt1>Prabhupada once said that ISKCON can NEVER ever be destroyed by outside forces, but it CAN be destroyed from within.

Similarly Prabhupada also explained that the Vedic culture was NOT destroyed by those without, that is not possible, it was first weakened from within due to the fall down of the Brahmins, the priestly class, gurus and teachers who exploited rather than lead the rest of Vedic culture.

Their principles became so weakened that they fought amongst themselves as the Mahabharata tells us. Then these degraded 'Brahmins' allowed the eating of meat and Lord Buddha came telling everyone to avoid the Brahmins and their corrupt Vedic culture

Due to this weakened degraded state, the outside earthly primitive tribes were able to invade and conquer much of the now corrupt Vedic culture

The corrupt Vedic system is the cause of all invasions including the most recent Muslim invasion of the 8th Century and the British occupation from the 16th century.

 

Degradation and exploitation begins from within, not without

I will say it again!!

Degradation and exploitation begins from within, not without

 

In fact even the Gaudiya math was almost stagnated until Srila Prabhupada rejuvenated the Gaudiya Sampridaya's preaching mission for Lord Caitanya by coming to the West, awakening it's real purpose from the self interested devotees in India who never new what preaching to ALL living entities really means!!

 

That credit eternally belongs to Srila Prabhupada who was the only disciple who undertood his Spiritual Masters orders

 

 

 

 

</TD></TR><!-- END TEMPLATE: newreply_reviewbit --><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: newreply_reviewbit --><TR><TD class=thead colSpan=2>Yesterday 02:05 AM</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[son_of_erin2000]

love this picture.those pups are ready for a workout.

[raghu]

In response to your point that:

 

 

I was referring to long long ago, when leaders of Vedic culture became corrupt, (not everyone as the Parampara disciplic chain of succession shows us)

Such corruption going on over thousands of years, ALLOWED the invading tribes to plunder, rape and steal in the land of Bharatavarsa. The fall of the Vedic culture caused that, allowed it to happen

 

My point was simply that:

 

The fall of Vedic civilization was brought about by repeated Muslim invasions beginning in the 7th century followed by European imperialists who annexed Indian territory and used it for their own ends.

 

to which you simply replied:

 

 

No you are wrong in your understanding, the onset of Kali-yuga was brought on by the corruption of most of the Vedic culture and the leadership which includes cast Brahmins, sages, gurus, so called sadus.

 

 

I can see that this is going to be one of those iskcon-type discussions, where the guy who disagrees with the iskconite cites facts to support his case, and the iskconite simply repeats his own beliefs completely indepedent of and in fact disregarding all contradictory facts, until the detractor just goes away.

 

Any 3rd standard history of India textbook can be perused to review the facts that support the point of view that Vedic civilization declined due to military aggression and repeated looting and plundering of Hindu temples and kingdoms by foreign invaders, followed by intellectual re-writing of history and religious traditions to support the biases of foreign proselytizers.

 

You have no evidence to support your view that Vedic civilization declined due to internal corruption. I'm not even sure what you consider to be "corruption" in this case.

 

I honestly don't understand why you are so fixated on your perception of Vedic culture's degradation prior to iskcon. Perhaps you have some kind of idea that the world needs iskcon and that iskcon is going to fix everything. Frankly speaking, iskcon seems quite degraded by even this casual outsider's observations.

 

Prior to encountering iskcon, I had never heard of gurukulas where children were sexually abused, gurus who get seduced by their female therapist disciples and then go into "retirement," gurus who advocate homosexual marriages, gurus who claim they can commune with other dimensions and speak to aliens, "vaishnavas" who claim that you can't really "know" anything, "vaishnavas" who think christianity is bona fide vaishnavism, etc etc. I know iskcon devotees who are twice initiated and yet have not even read bhagavad-gita, what to speak of knowing the works of Baladeva Vidyabhushana or the six gosvami disciples of Sri Caithanya. I have even observed here numerous times that iskcon people disagree with their acharya's predecessor acharyas.

 

I can show with minimal effort that iskcon is a very degraded form of gaudiya vaishnavism, what to speak of being degraded from the context of Vedic culture. However, I suspect that the moderators will not find this discussion welcome and will be quick to delete any such postings. Suffice it to say that your comments are really nothing more than thinly-veiled hate speech against Vedic culture, and they do nothing to bolster iskcon's reputation among those who really practice Vedic culture (as opposed to just talking about it). iskcon would benefit more from honest and faithful preaching of its sampradaya's teachings rather than undertaking historical revisionism just to make their teachings seem more appealing to the masses.

 

For every finger you point at Vedic civilization's alleged shortcomings, i can with evidence point ten more at your own iskcon's colorful history. "Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones." Meditate on that before you presume to step onto the soapbox.

 

I will not bother writing any more in response unless you do.

 

Raghu

[Sarva gattah]

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>The corruption within the Vedic culture was going on over thousands of years, bringing them down to the level of mundane primitive humans on the planets surface that ALLOWED invading barbaric uncivilized tribes to plunder, rape and gradually steal in the land of Bharatavarsa because of the weakened and compromised principles of Godly men. The fall of the Vedic culture caused that, allowed the devastation and ruin to happen, allowed the conquering animalistic primtive humans to invade</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

 

 

His Divine Grace Srila A C Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada gives the following answers on how the vedic culture deteriorated from within, allowing ALL outside invading armies to conquer Bharatvarsa

 

Srimad Bhagavatam 1.18.33 P Maharaja Pariksit Cursed by a Brahmana Boy

Srila Prabhupada - "The brahmanas are considered to be the head and brains of the social body, and the ksatriyas are considered to be the arms of the social body. The arms are required to protect the body from all harm, but the arms must act according to the directions of the head and brain.

That is a natural arrangement made by the supreme order, for it is confirmed in the Bhagavad-gita that four social orders or castes, namely the brahmanas, the ksatriyas, the vaisyas and the sudras, areset up according to quality and work done by them.

Naturally the son of a brahmana has a good chance to become a brahmana by the direction of his qualified father, as a son of a medical practitioner has a very good chance to

become a qualified medical practitioner.

So the caste system is quite scientific. The son must take advantage of the father's qualification and thus become a brahmana or medical practitioner, and not otherwise. Without being qualified, one cannot become a brahmana or medical practitioner, and that is

the verdict of all scriptures and social orders.

Herein Srngi, a qualified son of a great brahmana, attained the required brahminical power both by birth and by training, but he was lacking in culture because he was an inexperienced boy.

By the influence of Kali, the son of a brahmana became puffed up with brahminical power and thus wrongly compared Maharaja Pariksit to crows and watchdogs. The King is certainly the watchdog of the state in the sense that he keeps vigilant eyes over the border of the state for its protection and defense, but to address him as a watchdog is the sign of a less-cultured boy. Thus the

downfall of the brahminical powers began as they gave importance to birthright without culture. **The downfall of the brahmana caste began in the age of Kali.

And since brahmanas are the heads of the social order, all other orders of society also began to deteriorate.** This beginning of brahminical deterioration was highly deplored by the father of Srngi, as we will find.

SB 2.4.18 T The Process of Creation

 

 

TRANSLATION

 

Kirata, Huna, Andhra, Pulinda, Pulkasa, Abhira, Sumbha, Yavana, members of the Khasa races and even others addicted to sinful acts can be purified by taking shelter of the devotees of the Lord, due to His being the supreme power. I beg to offer my respectful obeisances unto Him.

Srila Prabhupada's Purport -

"Kirata: A province of old Bharata-varsa mentioned in the Bhisma-parva of Mahabharata. Generally the Kiratas are known as the aboriginal tribes of India,

and in modern days the Santal Parganas in Bihar and Chota Nagpur might comprise the old province named Kirata.

Huna: The area of East Germany and part of Russia is known as the province of the Hunas. Accordingly, sometimes a kind of hill tribe is known as the Hunas.

Andhra: A province in southern India mentioned in the Bhisma-parva of Mahabharata. It is still extant under the same name.

Pulinda: It is mentioned in the Mahabharata (Adi-parva 174.38), viz., the inhabitants of the province of the name Pulinda. This country was conquered by Bhimasena and Sahadeva.

The Greeks are known as Pulindas, and it is mentioned in the Vana-parva of Mahabharata that the non-Vedic race of this part of the world would rule over the world. This Pulinda province was also one of the provinces of Bharata, and the inhabitants were classified amongst the ksatriya kings.

 

But later on, due to their giving up the brahminical culture, they were mentioned as mlecchas (just as those who are not followers of the Islamic culture are called kafirs and those who are not followers of the Christian culture are called heathens).

Abhira: This name also appears in the Mahabharata, both in the Sabha-parva and Bhisma-parva. It is mentioned that this province was situated on the River Sarasvati in Sind.

The modern Sind province formerly extended on the other side of the Arabian Sea, and all the inhabitants of that province were known as the Abhiras. They were under the domination of Maharaja Yudhisthira, and according to the statements of Markandeya the mlecchas of this part of the world would also rule over Bharata.

Later on this proved to be true, as in the case of the Pulindas. On behalf of the Pulindas, Alexander the Great conquered India, and on behalf of the Abhiras, Muhammad Ghori conquered India.

These Abhiras were also formerly ksatriyas within the brahminical culture, but they gave up the connection.

 

The ksatriyas who were afraid of Parasurama and had hidden themselves in the Caucasian hilly regions later on became known as the Abhiras,and the place they inhabited was known as Abhiradesa.

Sumbhas or Kankas: The inhabitants of the Kanka province of old Bharata, mentioned in the Mahabharata.

Yavanas: Yavana was the name of one of the sons of Maharaja Yayati who was given the part of the world known as Turkey to rule. Therefore the Turks are Yavanas due to being descendants of Maharaja Yavana.

The Yavanas were therefore ksatriyas, and later on, by giving up the brahminical culture, they became mleccha-yavanas".

 

Descriptions of the Yavanas are in the Mahabharata (Adi-parva

85.34).

 

Another prince called Turvasu was also known as Yavana, and his country was conquered by Sahadeva, one of the Pandavas.

The western Yavana joined with Duryodhana in the Battle of Kuruksetra under the pressure of Karna. It is also foretold that these Yavanas also would conquer India, and it proved to be true.

Khasa: The inhabitants of the Khasadesa are mentioned in the Mahabharata (Drona-parva).

 

Those who have a stunted growth of hair on the upper lip are generally called Khasas. As such, the Khasa are the Mongolians, the Chinese and others who are so designated.

 

 

 

End part one (stay tuned folks, more to come)

 

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam

 

It is pointless to apportion blame on any varna for the decline of Varnashram, but it is as Raghu ji points out the brutal occupation of Bharat by the invaders accelerated the process of decline.

As to the example of Pariksit Maharaj and Srngi, the Rihi’s son, I fail to understand how this can be blamed for the decline of Brahmin culture or even blame the son.

 

For one it was Pariksit Maharaj under the influence of Kali residing in his mukat cause the incidence, seeing the dead snake on his fathers neck made the son angry and cursed the person who did this to his father. Was he under the influence of kali? I don’t know, did the punishment fit the crime? No

 

If the king had done his duty and punished ‘kali’ would we see this decline?

It was Pariksit Maharaj mercy that allowed kali to reside in four places.

Mercy is also partially blamed on the kings who faced the onslaught of the invaders, they were defeated number of times but instead of punishing them they were allowed to return and conquered us.

 

It is very obvious that these invaders destroyed our temples and corrupted our culture but the dharma is eternal, it can never be destroyed although the propaganda they feed us even today is aimed at destroying the Vedic culture, which will remain even though wounded. Varnashram as ordained by Krishna is not Iskcon’s prerogative or their preaching’s convenience.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

[suchandra]

 

If you want my opinion, I have observed a lot more corruption in ISKCON within the past 15 years than I have even half of the corruption their members have alleged to be present within other sampradayas.

 

 

 

 

Yes, Srila Prabhupada said that sannyasa is not working, it is now joke and farce, therefore: everyone should get married -- and start daivi-varnasrama.

However, spiritually, the real order is to become humble (Trinad api sunicena taror api sahisnuna) - a sincere sweeper in the street, be honest, and realistic, realize I'm in kindergarten, and while you may hope, wish and desire to become High Court judge while you are in kindergarten, fine but first you have a lot of "ABC" learning and street sweeping to perform. Srila Prabhupada said his students are "ABC" level -- and as we have seen over and over, even then it seems they forget the ABC all the time, since: they have not yet absorbed the ABC. This is why we shouldnt be viewed as rati keli, we are ABC and have no idea what is rati keli siddha. As seen in the past so many big big leaders need to consult psychics, get psychotherapy, counselling, female therapists and consult other bogus "advisors", in sum why pretend what is not?

[Sarva gattah]

 

Prabhupada once said that ISKCON can NEVER ever be destroyed by outside forces, but it CAN be destroyed from within.

Similarly Prabhupada also explained that the Vedic culture was NOT destroyed by those without, that is not possible, it was first weakened from within due to the fall down of the Brahmins, the priestly class and teachers who exploited rather than lead the rest of Vedic culture.

Their principles became so weakened that they fought amongst themselves as the Mahabharata tells us. Then these degraded 'Brahmins' allowed the eating of meat and Lord Buddha came telling everyone to avoid the Brahmins and their corrupt Vedic culture

 

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by suchandra

"And as we have seen over and over, even then it seems they forget the ABC all the time, since: they have not yet absorbed the ABC.

 

As seen in the past so many big big leaders need to consult psychics, get psychotherapy, counselling, female therapists and consult other bogus "advisors", in sum why pretend what is not"?

 

 

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

Degradation, then exploitation begins from within, not without, caused by the weakened and compromised principles of unGodly men masquerading as Sadus who claim to be following the Vedas.

[theist]

Exploitation. Yes it comes from within. I would rather exploit someone than serve them. Doesn't speak very well of my character.

[AncientMariner]

The only thing I don't understand about seeking blame for the decline in Vedic Civilization is that I was under the understanding that Krishna told Lord Siva to incarnate as Sankarayacarya and preach a distorted view of the Vedas so that people would create unwanted population. Not only that the Kali-yuga is necessary for the eventual appearance of the Kalki avatar so it seems at some level Krishna needs for the Vedic civilization to become degraded because if it became prominent then in theory it seems the Kali-yuga would come to an end. So when I see this big manifestos about how to create the perfect Iskcon and all that they seem noble but I am always skeptical because it seems in the Vedas that no matter what the Kali-yuga still has a long time to go even though in theory I suppose there could be some sort of golden age resurgence of Vedic Civilization for a time period within the Kali-yuga but who knows.

[Sarva gattah]

 

The only thing I don't understand about seeking blame for the decline in Vedic Civilization .

 

Answer -

The living entities of all primitive cultures that evolved on/from the surface of this planet, are the result of billions of years of biological evolution, coming up from the evolutionary process on this material gross planet after AGAIN falling out of the dormant or impersonal Brahmajyoti, or suffering the result of previous karma that causes the baddha jiva to enter the lower species of life in the first place.

 

This is how and why the baddha-jiva has to again transmigrate through millions of different species, beginning with the Amebae single cell vessel, to eventually again, after millions of years of changing vessels or bodies, receive a rare human biological vessel meant ONLY for self realization and not sense gratification.

 

It is therefore inherent in human nature to believe in God. ALL living entities in the mahat-tattva are dreaming as there secondary baddha-jiva consciousness, which is forgetful of their original position with Krishna in Goloka, it is therefore natural to believe in a Supreme Being while in the material creation of Maha-Vishnu.

 

It is for this reason that even the earthly barbaric biological human tribes, whoes vessels have developed and evolved from the single celled Amebae, coming up or evolving from the lower biological species or life, develop their own speculative beliefs in a God when they attain the earthly human primitive bodily vessel.

 

However, happening at the same time, there also exists a vast Vedic civilization that has originated ABOVE the planets floor, coming down from the demigods who are the celestial being in more subtle material bodies from the sub-space heavenly planets.

 

The biological evolutionary process going on at the surface of the planet evolves to the human form that is the cross-roads existence in the maha-tattva, where one can enter the celestial realm or fall back down to the lower species.

 

Such beings impounded in celestial ethereal vessels, are also trapped, just on a higher dimensional reality within the mahat-tattva. All such bodies, ethereal and biological, are both part and parcel of the mahat-tattva or the material creation.

The Veda has been passed down to our planet from the celestial level.

 

The beginning of Kali-yuga is where the human tribes, born from coming up from the lower species and the celestial beings who came down from the heavenly planets who followed the Vedas, crossed paths.

 

This was only possible due to the Dvapara-yuga being degraded into the beginning of Kali-yuga that allowed the lowly 'planet tribes' to invade and be eventually influenced by of the 'more celestial beings that followed the Vedas. This is why Sanskrit is the language of the demigods.

 

It is important to understand that Satya-yuga, Tretta-yuga and the most of the Dvapara, even though on this planet, were more celestial than earthly and existed in the sky of this planet and not on the surface.

 

There were mystical powers, huge cities floating in the air at the same time the biological evolutionary process was going on the floor of the planet that the 'celestials Vedic universal travellers' never had much to do with, although what we now call dinosaurs animals and birds, were in some cases trained by these celestial beings in previous yugas.

 

This is why no evidence is found of the Satya, Tretta or Dvapara-yuga’s (except towards the end of Dvapara when it has virtually been degraded down to the planets surface).

 

Then Krishna came right at the very end of Dvapara-yuga, then after the battle at Kurukshetra, the Kali-yuga began and the invasion of the annoying primitive animal like barbaric human tribes, now could plunder the remanets of what was left from the Vedic culture due to its fall and degradation.

 

In the process, some of these barbaric tribes adapted to many practises, from cooking to rituals and prayer that gradually influenced many 'gross worldly' primitive cultures, like tribes in the Indian region and even Judaism.

 

However, the Vedic culture was so degraded by then, the influence was weak and scattered because most of the saintly sages had already left the planet to escape the on coming storm of Kali-yuga.

 

Scientist today cannot even perceive the 'subtle world’, which makes up the majority of the material universe with their Hubble telescope or the Electron microscope because the heavenly realms are only attainable by the correct penances and austerities. Material science on its own will never discover the Vedic sub-space dimension that is all around us, let alone anything spiritual which is only possible for a pure devotee of Krishna.

 

The fact that Satya-yuga, Treta and the earlier parts of Dvapara-yuga, even though on this planet, existed in a higher realm of material reality, distinguished from the mundane evolution of us humans and the lower species of life we transmigrated through, happening on the planets surface, was not effected by primitive tribal invasions is due to those yugas and their inhabitants, lived in the higher atmosphere of the planet and not on the planets surface.

 

In this way the mystical followers of the Vedas were not effect by the primitive planetary barbarians on the planets surface however, as Dvapara yuga became more degrade leading into Kali-yuga, the mystical celestial powers where lost due to degradation and the 'heavy' burden of ignorance, that further covered the once celestial followers of Vedic culture with grosser material biological bodies.

 

Such immorality took away their once higher mystical powers, making them vulnerable to the earthly tribes on the surface to invade and conquer after the Kali-yuga had begun.

In fact those who remained for the end of Dvapara Yuga and the beginning of Kali yuga, had already allowed themselves to be so degraded that they were now on the level of the primitive humans that exited on the surface of the planet who had transmigrated or evolved up through the lower species.

 

In this way, what is degradation to the Vedic celestial interplanetary beings, where their presents on this planet had virtually disappeared by the time the age of Kali-yuga begins, is actually a blessing for the primitive humans that have evolved from the evolution in the jungles on this planet, who eventually would also be given the chance to understand the Vedas by the various appearances of Krishna’s devotees or Vishnu tattva expansions.

 

Such devotees and expansions that enter the Kali-yuga, is explained in the Srimad Bhagavatam and Caitanya Caritamrita given to us by Srila Prabhupada for the purpose and PLAN to save ALL embodied living entities on earth and in heaven within the mahat-tattva.

[AncientMariner]

Why did Krishna tell Lord Siva to incarnate as Sankaracarya and preach a distorted view of the Vedas in order that people would create more and more unwanted population? I guess so that Krishna could eventually appear as Lord Caitanya and show people a simple method of overcoming the influence of the Kali-yuga but the stage is still ultimately being set for the appearance of the Kalki-avatar so my guess is that Vedic civilization will continue to degrade more and more because if it didn't then people woudn't continue to make unwanted population and everyone would be in the mode of goodness and they wouldn't have corrupt leaders so there would be no reason for the appearance of the Kalki avatar to overthrow the corrupt leadership. I suppose it is possible that Vedic Civilization could reappear for stints within the Kali-yuga and maybe that would be tied to the appearance of unanounced avatars or something who knows.