Suspended Acarya

[suchandra]

 

It's a legitemate question and as far as Satsvarupa das goes he has issued public letters confirming his situation so that is not gossip.

 

No need to take pleasure in the fall of anyone nor is there any reason to bury our heads in the sand and pretend we don't see. We leave that to the disciples of such people who hang on to the idea that these ecclesiastical gurus are infallible despite all evidence to the contray.

Thanks theist, yes, meanwhile Vaishnava forums have that cliché or are stigmatized to mainly discuss gossip. Seems hard to remove this libel and the crowd habituated to easily see posters as recidivists. Seems there're anyway only two options, a) the eleven are fallible aka ritviks. Or b) they were supposed to be worshiped as Radharani's servants and Jesus-like messiahs. However, when googling, "definition of guru", it says, yes, there's a definition of parampara-guru. What can be done?

 

1. Causelessmercy - Ebook - Srimad-Bhagavatam - Canto 8 - 24.2

Mahāprabhu therefore gives a definition of guru. Yāre dekha, tāre kaha kṛṣṇa -upadeśa: [Cc. Madhya 7.128 ] the bona fide guru is he who advises his disciples exactly in

<small>http://causelessmercy.com/SB8.24.2.htm

</small>

2. Causelessmercy - Carl Gustav Jung

... God will be there. definition of guru... Reflections, we find most of his thoughts about the, about theology and psychoanalysis. ... I would feel it to be

<small>http://causelessmercy.com/t/t/JUNG.HAY.htm

</small>

3. Causelessmercy - Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.8.25 - Vrndavana, October 5, 1974

This is the definition of guru. There is no difficulty to understand who is guru. One who follows strictly the principles laid down by jagad-guru, he is guru. So the jagad-guru

<small>http://causelessmercy.com/t/t/741005SB.MAY.htm

</small>

4. Causelessmercy - Bhagavad-gita 2.11 (with Spanish translator) - Mexico, February...

This is the definition of guru.Hṛdayānanda: (translating)Prabhupāda: I do not know what you said. What he said?Devotee: Devotee is compassionate to the sufferings of others.

<small>http://causelessmercy.com/t/t/750211BG.MEX.htm

</small>

5. Causelessmercy - Morning Walk - February 3, 1976, Mayapur

What is the definition of guru given by ? Why don t you read all these things? Why you remain fools and rascals? Why ? We are following Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Caitanya Mahāprabhu

<small>http://causelessmercy.com/t/t/760203mw.may.htm

</small>

6. Causelessmercy - Morning Walk - November 14, 1975, Bombay

That is the first definition of guru. Saṁsara- dāvānala-līḍha-loka-trāṇāya kāruṇya- ... all nonsense. But this is the definition of guru. Nowadays the sun is rising on

<small>http://causelessmercy.com/t/t/751114mw.bom.htm

</small>

7. Causelessmercy - Lecture at World Health Organization - Geneva, June 6, 1974

That is the definition of guru. Guru is accepted as good as God, sākṣād-dharitvena samasta-śāstraiḥ, in all Vedic literature, tathā bhāvyata eva sadbhiḥ, and those who

<small>http://causelessmercy.com/t/t/740606LE.GEN.htm

</small>

8. Causelessmercy - Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.25.13 - Bombay, November 13, 1974

śva-paco guruḥThis is the definition of guru, that one brāhmaṇa, born in brāhmaṇa family and very educated, mantra-tantra-viśāradaḥ, very expert in reciting Vedic

<small>http://causelessmercy.com/t/t/741113SB.BOM.htm</small>

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Just to clarify, when I mentioned Caru, I was speaking of Caru Das, the president of the Utah temple. Most probably don't even know he is an ISKCON guru, because he initiates people more or less as a priest and tells them that he isn't anything special.

[Shakti-Fan]

Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja:

 

There is a God, we are parts and parcels of God, and we must serve Him. The desire or tendency to serve Him is called sraddha, and it comes by the association of a pure devotee. If we desire to serve Godhead, but after sometime we have no association with advanced devotees, that desire will dry up. This is going on nowadays. We see so many devotees who had sraddha, and after that came to take initiation and engage in devotional service (bhajana-kriya) and bhajana-sadhana (hearing, chanting about, and remembering the Supreme Lord). However, because there was no good association, their sraddha began to dry up. Although they were approaching the stage of the second-class or intermediate devotee (madhyama-adhikari), and they even entered brahmacarya and the renounced order – from there they began to fall. They can be likened to a tree or creeper; after the sprouts develop some leaves, due to not getting water they will die. Therefore, we should try to always be in good association.

No mundane society can give Truth. However, if in society there are some good preachers like Srila Bhaktivedanta Svami Maharaja or Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura Prabhupada, we can associate with them. After they left the vision of this world, the disciplic line of spiritual preceptors was still there; but the so-called followers are not true followers. They are hankering after the three W’s – wealth, women, and wine – and they will surely fall down.

[Shakti-Fan]

Srila Narayana Maharaja:

Los Angeles, May 13, 2001

I have seen that Srila Swami Maharaja has given the definition of ISKCON with this sloka: krsnah bhakti rasa bhavita. This is the basis of ISKCON...

If anyone is not following this, even he is trying to be ISKCON, he is not really ISKCON. He is ISKCON-abhasa (a semblance or shadow). We see in the semblance of ISKCON that so many members can fall down. The real ISKCON members, however, will never fall down. Brahma is the first in ISKCON, Narada is second, Srila Vyasadeva is third, and fourth is Sri Sukadeva Gosvami. They cannot fall down. Srila Rupa Gosvami cannot fall down, and he is also ISKCON. Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami will never fall down, and he is also ISKCON. We are all ISKCON, but those who can fall down, those who are simply trying to be ISKCON, are not really its members.

We must help devotees who are in that category. I pray that Krsna will sprinkle His mercy on them so that one day they will be in the real ISKCON.

Generally, koti janma sukritair na labhyte: this high-class standard cannot be had only by sukrti (spiritually pious activities or regulative bhakti). If one gathers sukrti for thousands and thousands of births, in relation to Krsna and His devotees, or in relation to anything related to Krsna, then it will be real sukrti. When sukrti is in large enough quantity, you can have darsana of any exalted devotee. Sadhu-sanga will be achieved.

sadhu sanga sadhu sanga sarva sastra kaya

lavamatra sadhu sange sarva siddhi haya

This has been proclaimed everywhere, and Srila Swami Maharaja has also explained so much about it. Without sadhu-sanga we cannot advance to our goal.

 

krsnah bhakti rasa bhavita matih

kriyatam yadi kuto ’pi labhyate

tatra laulyam api mulyam ekalam

janma-koti-sukrtair na labhyate

[syamarani reads translation:] "Pure devotional service in Krsna consciousness cannot be had even by pious activities in hundreds and thousands of lives. It can be obtained only by paying one price; that is, intense greed to obtain it. If it is available somewhere, one must purchase it without delay. Purport: The previous two verses are in included in the Padyavali (13, 14) by Srila Rupa Gosvami."

[theist]

 

Just to clarify, when I mentioned Caru, I was speaking of Caru Das, the president of the Utah temple. Most probably don't even know he is an ISKCON guru, because he initiates people more or less as a priest and tells them that he isn't anything special.

 

I was one of those people. I didn't know he was performing initiations. One wonders how he has managed to remain balanced amongst the storm. Must be listening to Krishna within.

[bhaktajan]

Without ulterior motives you act so as to assist in Prabhupada's mission in the following way—

So, in yall's collective judgement Iskcon's Fallen Gurus, are not men who failed in their mission and vows, but who are described thusly by Srila Prabhupada:

Isopanisad Mantra 12 Purport:

. . . the path of salvation from the material clutches fully depends on the principles of knowledge and detachment gained from serving the Lord. The pseudo religionists have neither knowledge nor detachment from material affairs, for most of them want to live in the golden shackles of material bondage under the shadow of philanthropic activities disguised as religious principles.

By a false display of religious sentiments, they present a show of devotional service while indulging in all sorts of immoral activities. In this way they pass as spiritual masters and devotees of God. Such violators of religious principles have no respect for the authoritative äcäryas, the holy teachers in the strict disciplic succession.

They ignore the Vedic injunction äcäryopäsana—“One must worship the äcärya”—and Kåñëa’s statement in the Bhagavad-gétä (4.2) evaà paramparä-präptam, “This supreme science of God is received through the disciplic succession.” Instead, to mislead the people in general they themselves become so-called äcäryas, but they do not even follow the principles of the äcäryas.

These rogues are the most dangerous elements in human society. Because there is no religious government, they escape punishment by the law of the state. They cannot, however, escape the law of the Supreme, who has clearly declared in the Bhagavad-gétä that envious demons in the garb of religious propagandists shall be thrown into the darkest regions of hell (Bg. 16.19–20).

Çré Éçopaniñad confirms that these pseudo religionists are heading toward the most obnoxious place in the universe after the completion of their spiritual master business, which they conduct simply for sense gratification.

……………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

While also abandoning Bhagavad-gita 9.30:

"Even if one** commits the most abominable action, if he is engaged in devotional service he is to be considered saintly because he is properly situated in his determination."

{ . . . **Sometimes, however, it may be seen that a person in Kåñëa consciousness commits some act which may be taken as most abominable socially or politically. . . . }

Kirtananda was ex-communicated and 99% of his admirers left him, including me.

Bhavananda was thrown-out too and 100% of his admirers left him, including me.

I don't see the faults in Iskcon that everyone is ranting about.

"By the mercy of God we get Guru, and, by the mercy of Guru we Get God."

Do you worship God, even in a small insignificant, common, and lowly way? If so, then when you attain initiation by a Guru—why does your mode of worship change?

( 'Do you worship Money, even in a small insignificant, common, and lowly way? If so, then, when you attain a lottery-winning by the State—why does your mode of worship change?')

The position of who is Guru is stated in most simplistic terms in the Isopanisad Introduction:

". . . the Vedic injunction is that one must approach—the word “compulsory” is used—a bona fide spiritual master, a guru. . . . "

—[bhaktajan's note: the same principle applies in all institutions and spheres of learning where completion of the course ends with, 'Certification']

. . . And what is the qualification of a spiritual master?

He is one who has rightly heard the Vedic message from the right source.

And he must practically be firmly established in Brahman.

These are the two qualities he must have. Otherwise he is not bona fide.

This Kåñëa consciousness movement is completely authorized from Vedic principles.

In the Bhagavad-gétä Kåñëa says, “The actual aim of Vedic research is to find out Kåñëa.”

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

So, I ask you'all: "Have y'all heard the Vedic message from the right source.

And y'all must practically be firmly established in Brahman???????????????????????????"

[theist]

 

Kirtananda was ex-communicated and 99% of his admirers left him, including me.

Bhavananda was thrown-out too and 100% of his admirers left him, including me.

 

Well have you learned your lesson yet?

 

You ask us:

 

Y'all heard the Vedic message from the right source?

 

I might ask you the same question. It wasn't Krishna as Caitya-guru who told you to surrender and worship the pedophiles in guru dress. So obviously you were hearing from the wrong source then.

 

Who if anyone you have attached yourself to now is your business. Perhaps you have gone beyond the ecclesiatical stage which is always frougt with difficulties and are trying to hear Krishna within. Perhaps not. Only you may know so this is not a request for you to publically declare your allegiance but only food for thought.

[bhaktajan]

Bhavanada's fallen down was in 1983--25 years ago.

 

Kirtananda ouster was 1987 -- 21 years ago.

 

You're fretting over old yellowed and wilted and faded headlines.

 

Iskcon is for making Brahmanas out of mudhas.

 

Any critisizing of Iskcon name, fame, form, personality, paraphenelia, entuorage and pastimes is due to petty mindedness and/or ulterior motives such as covered atheistic tendencies and competition for supremacy over Srila Prabhupada's "House that he built for the whole world".

 

Nobody is guilty of following cheaters--the diaspora has been depersed --the Iskcon's House is cleansed constantly.

 

WE IN ISKCON ARE TAUGHT FROM THE BEGINNING TO THE END TO RECOGNIZE AND AVOID THE UN-BONEFIDE GURUS AND YOGIS--WE KNOW PERFECTLY WHAT A BOGIE-YOGI [bogus-yogi] IS!

[AncientMariner]

So, I ask you'all: "Have y'all heard the Vedic message from the right source.

And y'all must practically be firmly established in Brahman???????????????????????????"

 

That's a loaded question. Because if you say you have read Prabhupada's books they will say that is not enough and you have to find a living guru. So apparently some people think that reading Prabhupada's books is not hearing the Vedic message from the right source and you need to have the currently elected or appointed living guru feeding you information about the Vedas. And just who exactly that person is there is a whole myriad of opinions and suggestions? So it all gets back into the same old debates over and over. I hope you are right that all is well and exactly as it should be in Iskcon.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

So, I ask you'all: "Have y'all heard the Vedic message from the right source.

And y'all must practically be firmly established in Brahman???????????????????????????"

 

That's a loaded question. Because if you say you have read Prabhupada's books they will say that is not enough and you have to find a living guru. So apparently some people think that reading Prabhupada's books is not hearing the Vedic message from the right source and you need to have the currently elected or appointed living guru feeding you information about the Vedas. So it all gets back into the same old debates over and over. I hope you are right that all is well and exactly as it should be in Iskcon.

 

Why not a self-effulgent guru, why does a living guru have to be elected or appointed? Or are you being facetious?

[AncientMariner]

 

Why not a self-effulgent guru, why does a living guru have to be elected or appointed? Or are you being facetious?

 

 

Self effulgent gurus are very easy to worship in my opinion because they command respect from their various great qualities.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

Self effulgent gurus are very easy to worship in my opinion because they command respect from their great qualities.

 

Tridandisvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja:

Los Angeles - May 11, 2003

 

What is Vaisnava-sanga or sadhu-sanga? You should know what is real association with a sadhu or saintly devotee. Sanga in short means association. San-ga – it is a Sanskrit word and it denotes samyak rupena gamanam; meaning to follow and serve one's Guru in all respects. This is also stated in the Bhagavad-Gita (4.34):

tad viddhi pranipatena

pariprasnena sevaya

upadeksyanti te jnanam

jnaninas tattva-darsinah

["Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized souls can impart knowledge unto you because they have seen the truth."]

You will have to seek out a high class of association – qualified Vaisnava devotees – and offer obeisances to them, thinking, "I must obey, serve and please them in all respects." Tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya. Three things are mentioned here by Krsna. First, pranipatena – surrender yourself, thinking, "I must obey." Secondly, pariprasnena – you will have to very humbly ask questions, and the Vaisnavas saints will explain and reconcile everything for you. Thirdly, sevaya – you will have to serve with a mood to please them. Without these three, you cannot have bhakti. This is stated throughout the scriptures, and there are so many examples.

`sadhu-sanga', `sadhu-sanga' – sarva-sastre kaya

lava-matra sadhu-sange sarva-siddhi haya

["The verdict of all revealed scriptures is that by even a moment's association with a pure devotee, one can attain all success." (Caitanya-Caritamrta, Madhya-lila 22.54)]

Without sadhu-sanga you cannot advance in Krsna consciousness. If you are trying to perform bhakti by yourself, by your intelligence, the result will be karma (material fruitive activity) – not bhakti.

[AncientMariner]

 

Tridandisvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja:

Los Angeles - May 11, 2003

 

 

These quotes are true but your type is trying to persuade that Prabhupada is not accessible to associate with through his books and that doesn't jive with some of the quotes Prabhupada left behind. I know you are going to continue to post these quotes over and over and I respect your allegiance to Narayana Maharaja but I have heard these arguments over and over.

[Shakti-Fan]

Eulogy of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura

(The Harmonist, Dec. 1931, vol. XXIX No. 6)

 

It is not empiric wisdom that is the object of quest of the devotee. Those who read the scriptures for gathering empiric wisdom will be pursuing the wild goose chase... The mutual admiration society of dupes does not escape, by the mere weight of their number, the misfortunes due to the deliberate pursuit of the wrong course in accordance with the suggestions of our lower selves... Thakura Bhaktivinoda is acknowledged by all his sincere followers as possessing the powers of the pure devotee of Godhead.

His words have to be received from the lips of a pure devotee. If his words are listened from the lips of a non-devotee they will certainly deceive. If his works are studied in the light of one's own worldly experience their meaning will refuse to disclose itself to such readers. His works belong to the class of the eternal revealed literature of the world and must be approached for their right understanding through their exposition by the pure devotee. If no help from the pure devotee is sought, the works of Thakura Bhaktivinoda will be grossly misunderstood by their readers. The attentive reader of those works will find that he is always directed to throw himself upon the mercy of the pure devotee if he is not to remain unwarrantably self-satisfied by the deluding results of his wrong method of study.

The writings of Thakura Bhaktivinoda are valuable because they demolish all empiric objections against accepting the only method of approaching the Absolute in the right way. They cannot and were never intended to give access to the Absolute without help from the pure devotee of Krishna. They direct the sincere enquirer of the truth, as all the revealed scriptures do, to the pure devotee of Krishna to learn about Him by submitting to listen with an open mind to the transcendental sound appearing on his lips. Before we open any of the books penned by Thakura Bhaktivinoda, we should do well to reflect a little on the attitude which serves as the indispensable prerequisite to approach its study. It is by neglecting to remember this fundamental principle that the empiric pedants find themselves so hopelessly puzzled in their vain endeavor to reconcile the statements of the different texts of the scriptures. The same difficulty is already in process of overtaking many of the so-called followers of Thakura Bhaktivinoda and for the same reason...

Those who want to understand the contents of the volumes penned by the piecemeal acquisitive method applicable to deluding knowledge available to the mind on the mundane plane, are bound to be self-deceived. Those who are sincere seekers of the truth are alone eligible to find Him, in and through the proper method of His quest.

In order to be put on the track of the Absolute, listening to the words of the pure devotee is absolutely necessary. The spoken word of the Absolute is the Absolute. It is only the Absolute Who can give Himself away to the constituents of His power. The Absolute appears to the listening ear of the conditioned soul in the form of the name on the lips of the sadhu. This is the key to the whole position. The words of Thakura Bhaktivinode direct the empiric pedant to discard his wrong method and inclination on the threshold of the real quest of the Absolute. If the pedant still chooses to carry his errors into the realm of the Absolute Truth he only marches by the deceptive by-path into the regions of darker ignorance by his arrogant study of the scriptures. The method offered by Thakura Bhaktivinoda is identical with the object of the quest. The method is not really grasped except by the grace of the pure devotee. The arguments, indeed, are these. But they can only corroborate, but can never be a substitute for, the word from the living source of the Truth who is no other than the pure devotee of Krishna, the concrete Personal Absolute.

[AncientMariner]

 

Eulogy of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura

(The Harmonist, Dec. 1931, vol. XXIX No. 6)

 

How do you explain these quotes?

SB 3.31.48

"one has to associate with liberated persons NOT DIRECTLY, PHYSICALLY, BUT BY UNDERSTANDING, THROUGH PHILOSOPHY AND LOGIC, THE PROBLEMS OF LIFE.

EK 4

There are two conceptions of presence--the physical conception and the vibrational conception. The physical conception is temporary, whereas the vibrational conception is eternal. When we enjoy or relish the vibration of Krsna's teachings in Bhagavad-gita, or when we chant Hare Krsna, we should know that by those vibrations He is immediately present. He is absolute, and because of this His vibration is just as important as His physical presence. WHEN WE FEEL SEPARATION FROM KRSNA OR THE SPIRITUAL MASTER, WE SHOULD JUST TRY TO REMEMBER THEIR WORDS OF INSTRUCTIONS, AND WE WILL NO LONGER FEEL THAT SEPARATION. SUCH ASSOCIATION WITH KRSNA AND THE SPIRITUAL MASTER SHOULD BE ASSOCIATION BY VIBRATION, NOT PHYSICAL PRESENCE. THAT IS REAL ASSOCIATION. We put so much stress on seeing, but when Krsna was present on this earth, so many people saw Him and did not realize that He is God; so what is the advantage of seeing? By seeing Krsna, we will not understand Him, but by listening carefully to His teachings, we can come to the platform of understanding. We can touch Krsna immediately by sound vibration; therefore we should give more stress to the sound vibration of Krsna and of the spiritual master--then we'll feel happy and won't feel separation.

75-11-04 Letter: Suci

You have rightly said that the best way to associate with the spiritual master is to follow his instructions. There are two ways of associating, by vani and by vapu. Vani means words and vapu means physical presence. PHYSICAL PRESENCE IS SOMETIMES APPRECIABLE AND SOMETIMES NOT. THEREFORE WE SHOULD TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE VANI, NOT THE PHYSICAL PRESENCE, BECAUSE THE VANI CONTINUES TO EXIST ETERNALLY. Bhagavad-gita for example is the vani of Lord Krishna. Although Krishna was personally present 5,000 years ago and is no longer present physically from the materialistic viewpoint, still Bhagavad-gita continues. So you have correctly concluded.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

WHEN WE FEEL SEPARATION FROM KRSNA OR THE SPIRITUAL MASTER, WE SHOULD JUST TRY TO REMEMBER THEIR WORDS OF INSTRUCTIONS, AND WE WILL NO LONGER FEEL THAT SEPARATION. SUCH ASSOCIATION WITH KRSNA AND THE SPIRITUAL MASTER SHOULD BE ASSOCIATION BY VIBRATION, NOT PHYSICAL PRESENCE. THAT IS REAL ASSOCIATION.

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja:

 

That is not his meaning. If there is no milana, meeting, no actual separation will come. Do you understand? You have seen me, you have met me and heard from me many times. So if you will not see me, you may have feelings of separation. You have met your Prabhupada and so you have feelings of separation for him. If you had never met him, how would you feel separation?

 

 

We put so much stress on seeing, but when Krsna was present on this earth, so many people saw Him and did not realize that He is God; so what is the advantage of seeing? By seeing Krsna, we will not understand Him, but by listening carefully to His teachings, we can come to the platform of understanding. We can touch Krsna immediately by sound vibration; therefore we should give more stress to the sound vibration of Krsna and of the spiritual master--then we'll feel happy and won't feel separation.

 

 

 

75-11-04 Letter: Suci

You have rightly said that the best way to associate with the spiritual master is to follow his instructions. There are two ways of associating, by vani and by vapu. Vani means words and vapu means physical presence. PHYSICAL PRESENCE IS SOMETIMES APPRECIABLE AND SOMETIMES NOT. THEREFORE WE SHOULD TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE VANI, NOT THE PHYSICAL PRESENCE, BECAUSE THE VANI CONTINUES TO EXIST ETERNALLY. Bhagavad-gita for example is the vani of Lord Krishna. Although Krishna was personally present 5,000 years ago and is no longer present physically from the materialistic viewpoint, still Bhagavad-gita continues. So you have correctly concluded.

 

Now the disciples of Srila Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada cannot have the opportunity for his vapuh association, so they can remember him and learn from him about bhakti and associate with him through his books. The books will assuage their separation, while at other times they (the books) will trigger such pangs of separation from their beloved guru who they sincerely served and continue to serve. When they have difficulty understanding bhakti though his books they can go to persons who have assimilated these conceptions and now live them in their practical lives. As Swami B.R. Srihar Maharaja has said, books will help us when we do not have the opportunity for sadhu sanga. Of course even if we have sadhu sanga the books are very important in Kali Yuga because of our poor memories.

[AncientMariner]

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now the disciples of Srila Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada cannot have the opportunity for his vapuh association, so they can remember him and learn from him about bhakti and associate with him through his books. The books will assuage their separation, while at other times they (the books) will trigger such pangs of separation from their beloved guru who they sincerely served and continue to serve. When they have difficulty understanding bhakti though his books they can go to persons who have assimilated these conceptions and now live them in their practical lives. As Swami B.R. Srihar Maharaja has said, books will help us when we do not have the opportunity for sadhu sanga. Of course even if we have sadhu sanga the books are very important in Kali Yuga because of our poor memories.

 

If Prabhupada is no longer accessible as a spiritual master then why does one of the Iskcon gurus initiate on his behalf? I read some quotes that Bhakti Caru Swami apparently considers his disciples to be Prabhupada's disciples. I am not any kind of disciple of anyone but I do feel that Prabhupada arranged so that I would come across his books so I do feel that he is out there somewhere.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Those who criticize hearing from Prabhupada through his books and lectures fail to realize that literally every single guru in ISKCON and Gaudiya Math today teach their disciples through their own books and recorded media as well. No one gets to live up close with their guru and get the personal physical association that they say is so important. Anyone can try it and see for themselves. Become a disciple of Swami XYZ and try to associate with him personally. You will see him for one day a year, as he passes through for the Ratha Yatra. The only way you are going to learn anything from him is by reading his books and listening to his recorded lectures.

 

So the hipocrisy is that for the present Swamis such teaching methods are valid and can transmit spiritual knowledge, but in the case of Prabhupada he is unable to give spiritual knowledge through his teachings.

 

Even while Srila Prabhupada was physically present he never met with his disciples and gave them the type of personal association some claim is needed to advance. Many disciples never even met Srila Prabhupada, and he told them that all his teachings were in his books. When they tried to get more personal association he chastised them on several occassions and said the answers are in my books, don't disturb me with your questions.

[theist]

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja:

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> That is not his meaning. If there is no milana, meeting, no actual separation will come. Do you understand? You have seen me, you have met me and heard from me many times. So if you will not see me, you may have feelings of separation. You have met your Prabhupada and so you have feelings of separation for him. If you had never met him, how would you feel separation? </td> </tr> </tbody></table>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

This is why I have no interest in Narayana Maharaja. Anyone can meet Srila Prabhupada in his books.

 

You are right on AM.

[suchandra]

 

Those who criticize hearing from Prabhupada through his books and lectures fail to realize that literally every single guru in ISKCON and Gaudiya Math today teach their disciples through their own books and recorded media as well. No one gets to live up close with their guru and get the personal physical association that they say is so important. Anyone can try it and see for themselves. Become a disciple of Swami XYZ and try to associate with him personally. You will see him for one day a year, as he passes through for the Ratha Yatra. The only way you are going to learn anything from him is by reading his books and listening to his recorded lectures.

 

So the hipocrisy is that for the present Swamis such teaching methods are valid and can transmit spiritual knowledge, but in the case of Prabhupada he is unable to give spiritual knowledge through his teachings.

 

Even while Srila Prabhupada was physically present he never met with his disciples and gave them the type of personal association some claim is needed to advance. Many disciples never even met Srila Prabhupada, and he told them that all his teachings were in his books. When they tried to get more personal association he chastised them on several occassions and said the answers are in my books, don't disturb me with your questions.

For me the most important thing was/is, to be with other Vaishnavas. This is basically also what Lord Caitanya says, associate with devotees. He never says, always try to live in the same appartement like your guru.

 

 

There are two types of sadhus: sastras (scriptures) and bhaktas (devotees). Both of these perform kirtana; that is, both can glorify the topics of Bhagavan and His bhaktas. Sastras and bhaktas are the only friends and well-wishers of the jivas, and therefore they are the very life of the jivas. Those who are intelligent, who always engage in the search for truth and the path of eternal well-being, cannot live without the association of sadhus and sastras. With firm vows they follow sadacara, conduct leading to truth, in the form of steadfastly rejecting asat-sanga and eagerly taking sat-sanga. Therefore, they always endeavor to have the sanga of bhakta-bhagavat. In the absence of sadhu-sanga, they take the association of sastra.

http://www.purebhakti.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=301&Itemid=61

 

 

 

But what can be done if the GBC has become so weak and disfunctional to oversee that the best quality of sadhu-sanga in the Vaishnava institution is 100% guaranteed?

 

posted 05 March 2008

 

Hare Krishna!

 

Dear devotee! We need your help.

 

We are writing from Estonian Yatra.

 

On years 2000-2003 Janaka Mahajana das was a kind of a leader here, in our Temple. One of his main projects was to collect donations from abroad for buying out the Temple house. He did quite well. But unfortunately it was impossible by the law to buy this house and therefore our Temple Council together with GBC representative Bhakti Caitanya Swami, decided to buy an appartment near to the temple with this money instead.

We found a nice appartment and Janaka signed the contract and bought the appartment with that money, but sadly he registered himself as an owner of it and not the yatra. After some time, when practically nobody supported him here anymore, he left for USA and sold the appartment, kept all the money and left us with nothing. Now he is "serving" in USA in New Vrindavana as GBC Treasurer.

 

We are asking you to please sign a petition to GBC to stop such a criminals within ISKCON. Please help us! Petition and more info here: http://www.iskconleader.com Please forward this letter to all the devotees you know!

 

Estonian devotees

[suchandra]

Below Sitapati das teaches, yes, gurus can fall down, but just like sometimes your children teach you, you should teach your fallen guru.

Although Prabhupada never mentioned, "Fallen Gurus", this seems the understanding of present ISKCON.

 

When the Guru Falls

 

<!-- begin content --> Posted On: Wed, 2008-03-05 02:22 by sitapati

http://www.atmayogi.com/node/630

 

 

What to do when the guru falls? What to think? How to feel?

Of course no-one wants this to happen, or even to think about this happening to them, but we have seen in the short history of ISKCON that many people find themselves having to deal with the unthinkable. And many other people have an underlying fear as a result.

We need some guidance on this matter, because our process is to follow the footsteps of the mahajanas, rather than rely on just our own experience or limited mental powers. These two things have their place in bhakti, but properly within the context of guru, sadhu, and sastra:

<center>sadhu-sastra-guru-bakya

cittete kariya aikya

satata bhasiba prema-majhe</center> Making the words of the guru, sadhus and sastras one with my heart, I constantly float and swim in the ocean of pure love.

- Narottama das Thakura, Prema Bhakti Candrika

In our Gaudiya Vaisnava system authority rests on the three legs of guru (spiritual master), sadhu (saintly persons), and sastra (scripture). Therefore sadhu and sastra are the two legs that support and validate guru.

That our understanding of this situation must be based on sastra, rather than our own limited ideas, or an emotional reaction arising from a sense of disillusionment or betrayal, is reinforced by this statement by Srila Rupa Goswami:

<center>śruti-smṛti-purāṇādi

pañcarātra-viddhiṁ vinā

aikāntikī harer bhaktir

utpātāyaiva kalpate</center> "Devotional service performed without reference to the Vedas, Puranas, and Pancaratras must be considered sentimentalism, and it causes nothing but disturbance to society."

- Bhakti-Rasamrita-Sindhu 1.2.101

This statement, quoted by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, emphasizes the importance of following the guidelines laid out by previous saints:

<center>dharmasya tattvam nihitam guhayam

mahajano yena gatah sa panthah</center> "The solid truth of religious principles is hidden in the heart of an unadulterated, self-realized person. Consequently, as the sastras confirm, one should accept whatever progressive path the mahajanas advocate."

- Caitanya Caritamrita Madhya-lila 17.186

In our tradition we accept as sruti, or Vedic evidence on the level of sastra, the songs written by our Vaisnava acaryas:

The Narottama dasa, he has sung so many Vedic songs. Narottama dasa's song, although it is written in Bengali, it is considered as sruti, Vedic.

All Vaisnavas, songs are like that, Vedic evidence.

- Srila Prabhupada

With respect to the situation where the guru falls down, Srila Narahari Sarkar, the 40th branch of the Caitanya tree, has specifically addressed this in his book Sri Krishna Bhajanamrita.

This work explains what to do when the guru deviates from sad-acar, or proper behaviour.

That Narahari Sarkar writes about this subject demonstrates that this is a very real occurrence, and part of the manifestation of Guru tattva. It is not something unique to modern history or to ISKCON. The guru is empowered by God, and at the same time is a human being - he has a human side and is fallible.

The specific instructions that Narahari Sarkar gives are the Vaisnava etiquette for dealing with this situation. He says that the guru is *not* to be given up out of hand, but the disciple should work with them to help them rectify the situation:

 

"If the spiritual master commits a wrongful act breaking Vaisnava regulative principles then in that case one should in a solitary place, confront him for his rectification using logic and appropriate conclusions from sadhu, sastra and guru references, but one is not to give him up. "

 

- Sri Krishna Bhajanamrita 59

When the guru does fall down, as many in ISKCON have unfortunately experienced, it is the duty of the disciple to help him pick himself up again. Srila Prabhupada once said that he considered all his disciples as being sent by his own Guru Maharaja to help him, so this is a case where the disciple must instruct the spiritual master, by reminding him of the teachings that he himself gave to the disciple. Yes, sometimes this does happen, as I'm sure those of us with kids have experienced - sometimes we find our own children reminding us of what we should be doing...

 

One should not be hesitant or fearful because one is confronting or challenging a spiritual master.

"For it has been prescribed that one must appropriately discipline even a spiritual master who is:

 

*bewildered about what he should or shouldn't do;

 

*who is inexperienced or ignorant:

 

*who has deviated from the Krsna conscious path;

 

*or if he is bewildered by false pride."

 

 

- Sri Krishna Bhajanamrita 60

Sri Narahari Sarkar makes it clear that this statement is relevant to our contemporary times:

 

This statement of the revealed scriptures is applicable at all times and under all circumstances.

 

- Sri Krishna Bhajanamrita 61

While waiting for the guru to pick himself back up, and offering support, the disciple should continue taking shelter of previous instructions, their own intelligence, scripture, and other saintly Vaisnavas:

 

The natural behavior of the Vaisnava devotees is to take complete refuge of Lord Sri Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, accepting Him as their principal and real shelter. The very life of the Vaisnava devotees of the Lord is singing the glories of Lord Sri Krsna, describing and expanding the fame of Lord Sri Krsna, and discussing the nectar of His transcendental pastimes.

The authorized course of action is to continue, as before, with one's prescribed devotional service. One may take guidance through or instructions from the Vaisnavas, as all Vaisnavas are considered guru or "spiritual master," or one may use one's own intelligence, duly considering the relevant instructions from sadhu, sastra and guru. In all cases one should continue in one's devotional service.

 

 

- Sri Krishna Bhajanamrita 62-63

The guru, as Srila Prabhupada explained, is a peon - he is a postman whose duty it is to deliver the message. The message is the important thing. The postman may go astray, but the message stays the same.

At the same time the disciple naturally feels indebted to the guru for delivering this message to him.

The spiritual master should only be rejected under certain circumstances, where he has become definitely deviated and will not rectify himself:

 

Specifically, if one's guru acts contrary to his duty, has misconceptions about the Supreme Lord, is indifferent to the fame of Krsna, does not accept the reality of Krsna's pleasure pastimes, is inordinately proud because ordinary people flatter him, or imitates Krsna--then he should be rejected.

Under those circumstances one should not doubt, "How can I give up my spiritual master?"

"

 

 

- Sri Krishna Bhajanamrita 65-66

Earlier in this work Narahari Sarkar draws a parallel between the relationship of guru and disciple and the relationships between husband and wife, and father and son. The same principles are in play. The husband may make a mistake, and the wife should not simply immediately divorce him. Instead she should help him to get back on track. Similarly for a father and son, the father may make a mistake, but the son should not renounce his father. He should help him. The relationship between guru and disciple is a familial relationship, a spiritual one. The guru is the spiritual father, and the Vedas are the mother. So the son should help his father if the father comes into difficulty. And if the father should fall from grace completely, then the son should redeem him with his own character.

We all need help, always.

I hope this always remains a theoretical consideration for you, but if it doesn't, I pray that you deal with the situation with maturity and gravity, and that you continue your service with determination to achieve the goal in this lifetime, and help others to do the same.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

If someone was able to "teach" their fallen guru, then why would they have needed that guru in the first place and what could they gain from him?

 

This guy Sitapati also said the following:

 

"Also, having a homosexual relationship with a disciple is not in itself sufficient grounds to disqualify someone from the role of guru, although it may indicate that they require some time to rectify themselves (hence the idea of "retirement" from active duty)."

 

Just another clueless lamb.

[suchandra]

 

If someone was able to "teach" their fallen guru, then why would they have needed that guru in the first place and what could they gain from him?

 

This guy Sitapati also said the following:

 

"Also, having a homosexual relationship with a disciple is not in itself sufficient grounds to disqualify someone from the role of guru, although it may indicate that they require some time to rectify themselves (hence the idea of "retirement" from active duty)."

 

Just another clueless lamb.

 

SB writes about Satsvarupa dasa Goswami:

 

SB: "Not too many Catholic Cardinals are writing poetry in a 50's Beat style or creating Outsider art type paintings like Satsvarupa Dasa Goswami is doing, while admitting to having a mild affair with a nun, and if they did, I'm sure the Vatican would put a stop to it pretty fast while Catholic web forums would be abuzz with people talking about the crazy cardinal from hell. Not so in ISKCON, they give him all facilty and sell his books all over the society."

[Kulapavana]

 

If someone was able to "teach" their fallen guru, then why would they have needed that guru in the first place and what could they gain from him?

 

 

Bingo!

 

I asked several devotees who got "re-initiated" in Iskcon what do they get from their new guru. Most of them said it was simply a formality and a belief that a devotee should always be connected to a "proper guru". That is far worse then the caste goswami system Saraswata gurus preach against. No substance whatsoever, just a show...

[Shakti-Fan]

 

If Prabhupada is no longer accessible as a spiritual master then why does one of the Iskcon gurus initiate on his behalf? I read some quotes that Bhakti Caru Swami apparently considers his disciples to be Prabhupada's disciples. I am not any kind of disciple of anyone but I do feel that Prabhupada arranged so that I would come across his books so I do feel that he is out there somewhere.

Srila B.V.Prabhupada is accessible as a spiritual master but is not personally present to initiate or give access to his vapuh. We are not saying that you cannot associate with him through his books. His books can certainly help you. But he cannot tell you when you are misunderstanding his books, or that your service is not pleasing him and for that you need the association of a higher class of Vaisnava(s), which means higher than yourself. Watching a Prabhupada Memories Video is good but it is not the same as having been there yourself, sorry.