Suspended Acarya

[AncientMariner]

 

Srila B.V.Prabhupada is accessible as a spiritual master but is not personally present to initiate or give access to his vapuh. We are not saying that you cannot associate with him through his books. His books can certainly help you. But he cannot tell you when you are misunderstanding his books, or that your service is not pleasing him and for that you need the association of a higher class of Vaisnava(s), which means higher than yourself. Watching a Prabhupada Memories Video is good but it is not the same as having been there yourself, sorry.

 

 

No need to apologize. I am thankful to have had what little association I have had with Prabhupada through his books and thankful to the Hare Krishna devotees that gave me some of these books. I am a long way from ever becoming qualified to become any sort of devotee but I do feel a level of indebtedness to Prabhupada and even all the disciples that helped Prabhupada because he had the courage to come to the west and try to help us idiots out.

[Beggar]

<center><tt>Sri Guru & His Grace

</tt> Chapter One </center>

<center> <tt>Surrender

</tt>

 

<tt> to</tt>

 

 

<tt> Sri Guru (Last Part)</tt> </center>Sridhara Maharaja:

 

And what will be the spiritual master's position? He will be well versed in the revealed truth, not in ordinary information. Revelation in many shades has been spread in the world from the upper realm, but the guru must have some spacious, graphic knowledge. He must have extensive knowledge about the revealed truth. And he must always be practicing real spiritual life. His activities are all connected with spirit, not with the mundane world. He is concerned with Brahman, the plane which can accomodate everything, the fundamental basis of everything (brahma-nistham). Not that he is leading his life with any mortal, mundane reference. He always lives in the transcendental plane and keeps himself in connection with that plane his whole life. Whatever he does, he will do only with that consciousness. This is the version of the Upanisads.

And in the Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.3.21) it is said:

<center> tasmad gurum prapadyeta

jijnasuh sreya uttamam

sabde pare ca nisnatam

brahmany upasamasrayam </center> Maya means misconception. We are living in the midst of misconception. Our understanding of the environment is based on a completely misconceived set of ideas and thoughts. We have no proper conception of anything in the absolute sense. Our ideas are all relative. Provincial selfishness has been imposed on the environment, and we are living under that misconception. When one comes to the conclusion that everything will vanish, then, with that mood, he will feel the necessity of approaching the guru, the divine guide and preceptor, with the purpose of inquiry. "What is the highest good for me?" With this inquiry, he will approach the spiritual master.

And who will he approach? One who is not only well-versed in the precepts of the revealed scriptures, but who has also come in contact with the revealed truth. One who is conversant with the very object of the scriptures, and who has practical experience, who is established in pure consciousness, is a genuine guru. One should approach such a guide for his own relief, to understand what is the highest benefit in the world and how to attain it. This is necessary. It is real. It is not imaginary. At the same time, it is difficult. The Absolute Truth must be sought out through a real process, otherwise we shall go the wrong way and then say, "Oh, there is nothing here; it is not real." So, only if we follow this real process of understanding the truth will we experience the real nature of divinity.

[AncientMariner]

 

<CENTER><TT>Sri Guru & His Grace

</TT>Chapter One </CENTER>

 

<CENTER><TT>Surrender

</TT>

 

<TT>to</TT>

 

 

 

<TT>Sri Guru (Last Part)</TT> </CENTER>Sridhara Maharaja:

 

And what will be the spiritual master's position? He will be well versed in the revealed truth, not in ordinary information. Revelation in many shades has been spread in the world from the upper realm, but the guru must have some spacious, graphic knowledge. He must have extensive knowledge about the revealed truth. And he must always be practicing real spiritual life. His activities are all connected with spirit, not with the mundane world. He is concerned with Brahman, the plane which can accomodate everything, the fundamental basis of everything (brahma-nistham). Not that he is leading his life with any mortal, mundane reference. He always lives in the transcendental plane and keeps himself in connection with that plane his whole life. Whatever he does, he will do only with that consciousness. This is the version of the Upanisads.

And in the Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.3.21) it is said:

 

 

<CENTER>tasmad gurum prapadyeta

jijnasuh sreya uttamam

sabde pare ca nisnatam

brahmany upasamasrayam </CENTER>Maya means misconception. We are living in the midst of misconception. Our understanding of the environment is based on a completely misconceived set of ideas and thoughts. We have no proper conception of anything in the absolute sense. Our ideas are all relative. Provincial selfishness has been imposed on the environment, and we are living under that misconception. When one comes to the conclusion that everything will vanish, then, with that mood, he will feel the necessity of approaching the guru, the divine guide and preceptor, with the purpose of inquiry. "What is the highest good for me?" With this inquiry, he will approach the spiritual master.

And who will he approach? One who is not only well-versed in the precepts of the revealed scriptures, but who has also come in contact with the revealed truth. One who is conversant with the very object of the scriptures, and who has practical experience, who is established in pure consciousness, is a genuine guru. One should approach such a guide for his own relief, to understand what is the highest benefit in the world and how to attain it. This is necessary. It is real. It is not imaginary. At the same time, it is difficult. The Absolute Truth must be sought out through a real process, otherwise we shall go the wrong way and then say, "Oh, there is nothing here; it is not real." So, only if we follow this real process of understanding the truth will we experience the real nature of divinity.

 

Which guru are you a salesman for? Any names?

[suchandra]

 

Srila B.V.Prabhupada is accessible as a spiritual master but is not personally present to initiate or give access to his vapuh. We are not saying that you cannot associate with him through his books. His books can certainly help you. But he cannot tell you when you are misunderstanding his books, or that your service is not pleasing him and for that you need the association of a higher class of Vaisnava(s), which means higher than yourself. Watching a Prabhupada Memories Video is good but it is not the same as having been there yourself, sorry.

But you would surely agree that it is hard for us to pass judgement if association with Prabhupada's books there is only some small enlightenment or if Prabhupada's books are non-different from Prabhupada, i.e. Srila Prabhupada is fully present in his books?

 

When Prabhupada says he's fully present within his books, you might say, and you have that right to say, no, I don't believe this. But there're others who say, if Prabhupada says he's fully present in his books, that this is true. I'm not trying to say what you should believe, but you cannot say that vapuh is more important than vani and Prabhupada isn't fully present in his books.

 

ISKCON leaders are now claiming that their Jesus-like, God's pure representatives are deviants and that they're not mere cardinals, but on the same level like Jesus, i.e. God's direct representative.

 

Of course Srila Narayana Maharaja says that, "many of the post-1977 ISKCON gurus were monkeys", so what to expect from the worshipers of monkey as saksad-dharitvena samasta-sastrair, as good as God?

 

 

Narayana Maharaja Murwillumbah, Australia: Feb. 18, 2002 (eve):

"Srila Bhaktivedanta Svami Maharaja told me in the last days 'You should help my disciples. They are like monkeys; I could not train them so much. So always try to help them.'"

[Beggar]

 

Which guru are you a salesman for? Any names?

I'm for giving the ideal and then letting people go where they will according to their surkrti. Of course I am not really qualified to give the ideal so I am presenting a portion of "Sri Guru and His Grace".

[AncientMariner]

 

I'm for giving the ideal and then letting people go where they will according to their surkrti. Of course I am not really qualified to give the ideal so I am presenting a portion of "Sri Guru and His Grace".

 

Oh, I see. I apologize.

[Shakti-Fan]

"So if you read different scriptures, you will be bewildered…But there is adjustment. If you go to the authorized person, he can adjust. But you cannot see. You see, you'll see contradiction. So srutayo vibhinnah. Therefore they are considered different, but actually, they are not different. (Srimad-Bhagavatam 6.1.7 lecture, San Francisco, March 1, 1967)

 

"So Caitanya Mahaprabhu says the medium is sastra, and direction is the guru. Sastra also we cannot understand any book, what to speak of the scripture. Sometimes we find contradiction in the scripture. That is not contradiction; that is my poor fund of knowledge. I cannot understand; therefore assistance of guru, a spiritual master, is required." (Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Madhya-lila 20.353-354 Lecture, New York, December 26, 1966)

 

"Because the spiritual master is the representative of the Supreme Lord, his direction is directly the direction of the Supreme Lord. The spiritual master, saintly persons and scriptures direct in the same way. There is no contradiction in these three sources. All actions done under such direction are free from the reactions of pious and impious activities of this material world." (Bhagavad Gita As It Is 10.3, purport)

 

"One should taste the meaning of Srimad-Bhagavatam in the association of pure devotees, and one should associate with the devotees who are more advanced than oneself and who are endowed with a similar type of affection for the Lord." (Caitanya-caritamrta, Madhya-lila 22.131)

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

Watching a Prabhupada Memories Video is good but it is not the same as having been there yourself, sorry.

 

And today there are people watching a Narayana Maharaj Memories Video thinking they have a personal connection to him just because he is living (in some far away continent). And the ISKCON people are watching a Swami XYZ Memories video and they think they have a personal connection to that Swami (because he shows up for the annual Ratha Yatra). None of them have any more personal connection than anyone else.

 

 

His books can certainly help you. But he cannot tell you when you are misunderstanding his books, or that your service is not pleasing him and for that you need the association of a higher class of Vaisnava(s).

 

Srila Prabhupada never taught this while he was alive. He never said we had to ask him personally if we were pleasing him. He never said we needed to personally ask him questions. He never said we needed to sit next to him so that we wouldn't get any misunderstandings. He said if there are any questions keep reading my books and the answers will be revealed.

 

Even though this teaching about the need for a Krishna conscious personal trainer to spot you in the gym is popular today, it was never taught by Srila Prabhupada.

[Beggar]

 

March 1, 1967)

"So Caitanya Mahaprabhu says the medium is sastra, and direction is the guru. Sastra also we cannot understand any book, what to speak of the scripture. Sometimes we find contradiction in the scripture. That is not contradiction; that is my poor fund of knowledge. I cannot understand; therefore assistance of guru, a spiritual master, is required." (Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Madhya-lila 20.353-354 Lecture, New York, December 26, 1966)

 

 

In some places in Srila Prabhupada's teachings, it appear as if he is writing or saying that his books alone are sufficient. In other places it appears as if he is telling us to associate with living devotees who are on a higher platform than ourselves. Sometimes he says that just by accepting what we read in his books that we are initiated in other places it seems that he clearly is pushing us to take initiation from a living guru? (what to speak of the origin of the soul controversy!) How to reconcile these apparent contradictions? The answer is in the above quote.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

Watching a Prabhupada Memories Video is good but it is not the same as having been there yourself, sorry.

 

 

And today there are people watching a Narayana Maharaj Memories Video thinking they have a personal connection to him just because he is living (in some far away continent). And the ISKCON people are watching a Swami XYZ Memories video and they think they have a personal connection to that Swami (because he shows up for the annual Ratha Yatra). None of them have any more personal connection than anyone else.

 

Devotees are certainly watching Srila Narayana Maharaja's videos on Purebhaktitv.com but most of them also make the endeavor to go to his programs when he comes to their continent and sometimes go to Vraja Mandala parikrama etc. Some have long time close association with him and some are new and have less association. How else could it be? But his followers are trying to get his association by pleasing him and there is no doubt of this. Sometimes senior devotees can give their opinion if a devotees service is pleasing to the guru. But if one really wants to know first hand, there is always the possibility of making a personal connection if one really is desiring such a thing. Another thing is that he is always answering questions in his classes about current controversies like this one and others, so the answers are there. We don't have to go into the archives and find out, is an event that happened 38 years ago is similiar to something happening right now amongst the devotees? we can ask and find out for sure. Again we are not saying that the books, and instructions of Srila Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada are not valuable for the current generation. They are like jewels, but as Srila Narayana Maharaja says, "you must have the key to unlock them". The key is real sadhu sanga.

[suchandra]

 

They are like jewels, but as Srila Narayana Maharaja says, "you must have the key to unlock them". The key is real sadhu sanga.

Do I understand this correctly, Srila Narayana Maharaja has the key and only through him Prabhupada's books can be understood?

[AncientMariner]

 

Do I understand this correctly, Srila Narayana Maharaja has the key and only through him Prabhupada's books can be understood?

 

 

Yeah, I was wondering the same. Seems kind of strange to me but what do I know. I guess Narayana Maharaja has been especially empowered to determine who are sadhus and who are not?

[suchandra]

 

Yeah, I was wondering the same. Seems kind of strange to me but what do I know. I guess Narayana Maharaja has been especially empowered to determine who is sadhus and who is not?

Right we have to surrender here, when Srila Narayana Swami says like that we gladly accept. At least for us spiritual weaklings, Prabhupada has this encouragement, a very nice human body:

 

1. Causelessmercy - The Nectar of Devotion - Bombay, December 28, 1972

Krishna consciousness movement, and immaturely falls down, he s guaranteed to get a very nice human body.That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā that śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ

<small>http://causelessmercy.com/t/t/721228ND.BOM.htm

</small>

2. Causelessmercy - Lecture - Detroit, July 17, 1971

If you do not perfect, then next life is guaranteed, a very nice human body, either in a rich man s family or in a Krishna conscious family. Just try to understand how nice

<small>http://causelessmercy.com/t/t/710717LE.DET.htm</small>

[Kulapavana]

 

Do I understand this correctly, Srila Narayana Maharaja has the key and only through him Prabhupada's books can be understood?

 

I think he definitely can be one of such keys. Who can understand all that is in Prabhupada's books by himself? Many devotees helped me understand various things in those books, including Narayana Maharaja. I value that help very much. Sometimes I help others understand these books as well.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

Do I understand this correctly, Srila Narayana Maharaja has the key and only through him Prabhupada's books can be understood?

 

Yeah, I was wondering the same. Seems kind of strange to me but what do I know. I guess Narayana Maharaja has been especially empowered to determine who is sadhus and who is not?

Any bonafide high type of Gaudiya Vaisnava sadhu or guru in the family of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura has the key to open the door to the teachings of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and his followers. Srila Narayana Maharaja is not the only present living guru; There are others like Srila Puri Maharaja, Srila Govinda Maharaja, Srila B.B. Tirtha Maharaja and Srila Bodhayana Maharaja. All these gentleman offer a very high class of association. There may be one or more within ISKCON whether rubber stamped or not, I don't know. There may be others also. It's not the bottle but the contents of the bottle.

[AncientMariner]

 

Right we have to surrender here, when Srila Narayana Swami says like that we gladly accept. At least for us spiritual weaklings, Prabhupada has this encouragement, a very nice human body:

 

1. Causelessmercy - The Nectar of Devotion - Bombay, December 28, 1972

Krishna consciousness movement, and immaturely falls down, he s guaranteed to get a very nice human body.That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā that śucīnāṁ śrīmatāṁ

<SMALL>http://causelessmercy.com/t/t/721228ND.BOM.htm

</SMALL>

2. Causelessmercy - Lecture - Detroit, July 17, 1971

If you do not perfect, then next life is guaranteed, a very nice human body, either in a rich man s family or in a Krishna conscious family. Just try to understand how nice

<SMALL>http://causelessmercy.com/t/t/710717LE.DET.htm</SMALL>

 

 

That is one of the beautiful things of Krsna Consciousness that there is no loss in it no matter how far you get.

[suchandra]

 

I think he definitely can be one of such keys. Who can understand all that is in Prabhupada's books by himself? Many devotees helped me understand various things in those books, including Narayana Maharaja. I value that help very much. Sometimes I help others understand these books as well.

 

Thanks so much Kula, good points, I think Sriman Guruvani Prabhu left for this reason to join Srila Narayana Maharaja and finally come to the real state of KC?

[AncientMariner]

 

Any bonafide high type of Gaudiya Vaisnava sadhu or guru in the family of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura has the key to open the door to the teachings of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and his followers. Srila Narayana Maharaja is not the only present living guru; There are others like Srila Puri Maharaja, Srila Govinda Maharaja, Srila B.B. Tirtha Maharaja and Srila Bodhayana Maharaja. All these gentleman offer a very high class of association. There may be one or more within ISKCON whether rubber stamped or not, I don't know. There may be others also. It's not the bottle but the contents of the bottle.

 

That seems reasonable although I don't really understand the concept of dead gurus because in Srimad Bhagavatam I was under the understanding that even today Narada Muni is a traveling spaceman going from planet to planet delivering Hare Krishna mantra.

[theist]

 

Which guru are you a salesman for? Any names?

 

The confusing thing is Beggar and Shakti-Fan are the same person according top what Murali posted. Under Shakti-Fan he quotes Narayana Maharaja under Beggar he posts BR Sridhar Maharaja.

 

Is this correct Beggar?

[AncientMariner]

 

The confusing thing is Beggar and Shakti-Fan are the same person according top what Murali posted. Under Shakti-Fan he quotes Narayana Maharaja under Beggar he posts BR Sridhar Maharaja.

 

Is this correct Beggar?

 

Weird, that thought had crossed my mind before.

[AncientMariner]

 

Thanks so much Kula, good points, I think Sriman Guruvani Prabhu left for this reason to join Srila Narayana Maharaja and finally come to the real state of KC?

 

 

I was wondering what happened to Guruvani. I remember he declared his allegiance to Narayana Maharaja even to the point where he thought Prabhupada's books should no longer be accessible but then that Narayana Maharaja insider said something about how the same things that happened in Iskcon were happening in Narayana Maharaja camp and history was repeating itself so I wondered if Guruvani would actually go join that movement. I could never understand his stance on degrading Jesus but he did seem to be very knowledgeable about the Vedas. Whatever happened I hope things worked out for him.

[Beggar]

Shakti-fan is my wife. It all started out honestly enough. Sometimes she would be logged on and I forgot to log her off, and then post. Later she got some real flack from some so-called friends for posting something about Srila Narayana Mararaja and called it quits on Audarya. I asked her if I could keep posting quotes without comments for her. Then somebody figured it out and I go some veiled threats and open criticisms (in e-mails and real life) so I decided as a ploy to keep both screen names.

[suchandra]

 

I was wondering what happened to Guruvani. I remember he declared his allegiance to Narayana Maharaja even to the point where he thought Prabhupada's books should no longer be accessible but then that Narayana Maharaja insider said something about how the same things that happened in Iskcon were happening in Narayana Maharaja camp and history was repeating itself so I wondered if Guruvani would actually go join that movement. I could never understand his stance on degrading Jesus but he did seem to be very knowledgeable about the Vedas. Whatever happened I hope things worked out for him.

Uttama adhikaris like Guruvani prabhu sometimes also assume madhyama characteristics simply to serve for us an example and to aspiring us kanisthas who need to be trained in vaidhi bhakti.

The madhyama-adhikari Vaisnava can awaken others to Krsna consciousness and engage them in duties whereby they can advance. It is therefore said in Caitanya-caritamrta (Madhya-lila, Chapter Six, verse

279):

 

lohake yavat sparsi' hema nahi kare

tavat sparsa-mani keha cinite na pare

 

"One cannot understand the value of touchstone until it turns iron into

gold."

 

So, several times I told Guruvani prabhu to come down to the madhyam state to enlighten us - seems he presently refuses this request till we are getting more qualified to accept mercy.

[Beggar]

 

Thanks so much Kula, good points, I think Sriman Guruvani Prabhu left for this reason to join Srila Narayana Maharaja and finally come to the real state of KC?

 

Sriman Guruvani Prabhu left to pursue his hobby of wrestling alligators,

 

 

<!--n--> <!--m-->[url="http://www.fotosearch.com/PHD233/44127/"]

 

 

 

[AncientMariner]

 

Uttama adhikaris like Guruvani prabhu sometimes also assume madhyama characteristics simply to serve for us an example and to aspiring us kanisthas who need to be trained in vaidhi bhakti.

The madhyama-adhikari Vaisnava can awaken others to Krsna consciousness and engage them in duties whereby they can advance. It is therefore said in Caitanya-caritamrta (Madhya-lila, Chapter Six, verse

279):

 

lohake yavat sparsi' hema nahi kare

 

 

Well I don't see it unless he changes his stance on Jesus because it was in complete contradiction with Prabhupada but I gotta admit he was very knowledgable and there is hope for him if he can get the Jesus thing staightened out.