Mass Karma

[Rishi_L]

When the concept of karma is discussed, many (if not most) people tend to view it as a concept that exists only at a personal level. However, we are all parts of a Complete Whole. Does it not then make sense to consider that the universal law of karma doesn't only function individually but collectively as well? Let the simple yet profound metaphysical axiom "as above, so below; as below, so above" not be forgotten. I am COMPLETELY convinced that our good and evil actions affect the harmonious balance of our Earth. Therefore, partial dissolution of our world is brought on by the evil activities of people in general. Our entire planet can become a garden of Eden right now if we allow it to. If we all began to fight with explosives, by that direct action we could drastically reduce the extent of human civilisation. And maybe if we worked hard enough, we could dissolve this world too! Krsna has given man both the power of destruction as well as the power of creation. We have made the world beautiful and we also have the power to destroy it. I firmly believe that when Earth becomes very heavy with disease and evil, these disturbances cause the world to give way to earthquakes, floods and other 'natural' disasters.

It is the same as when you live immorally for a long time; various inharmonies begin to manifest in your body as well as certain diseases. Disease is not a punishment. It is a poison that you yourself create in your body and it is your destiny to ultimately get rid of it. But all too often, by the time you try to shake it off, the body has become completely deranged and you die. So, just like the human body, Earth also suffers from inharmonies and diseases. And it is primarily because the combined actions of all people all over the world affect the planet on which we live. There is no question about that. The good and bad karmic conditions created by man determine and influence the climate; they affect the wind and the ocean, even the very structure of Earth, sometimes causing earthquakes. Is it not written in Vishnu Purana itself that the most erratic climates are experienced all over Earth during the Kali Yuga, an age when adherence to Dharma is at its lowest? All the hatred, the anger, the evil we send out into the world and the agony and rebellion they cause -all these are disturbing the magnetic force of Earth, like static in a radio.

I also think that the presence of some kind of humanity (extradimensional, perhaps) on this planet stretches unfathomably far back into antiquity, with us humans having countless civilisations under our belt. If this proposition is true, then I would further add that I think that every single race on Earth would have held material dominance over every other race at some point in time. Just as individuals manifest their own karmic reactions, I think that races and even entire nations as a whole also manifest their own karmic reactions. Perhaps the persecution of one race (say, African Americans for example) is due to those members of that very SAME race having once been, in a distant epoch, the persecutors of those who eventually struck back through the law of karma? I'd just like to state with the UTMOST sincerity that I'm not racist in any way whatsoever and that I respect every colour, caste and creed on this wonderfully diverse planet of ours. I do not feel that oppression can EVER be justified through purely human means, perhaps only impartial cosmic laws can do such a thing. Yet this is nonetheless a thought that resonates with me very powerfully. As it seems apparent, our generally light-skinned Western brethren from 'first-world' nations (such as the US, UK and Australia) appear to be at the height of scientific and technological influence on Earth, while our fellow Eastern brothers remain more spiritually oriented (with Japan being a notable exception, as it seems to have nicely balanced its technological and economical growth with its ancient spiritual heritage... and let's not forget that China is proving itself to be an emerging superpower!). I know I'm generalising horribly here, but it still makes sense to me! It might be that, for example, certain people from a region of Africa had once established themselves as the most economically and militarily powerful land on Earth, just as the USA does today! The people living in North America at that unknown time might have been living in third-world conditions (like Bangladesh currently, for example) and the African people of that forgotten age eventually colonised and subjugated the innocent people that peacefully lived there. Certainly, it could explain why some people appear to have deep-seated prejudices towards those of varying skin colours and cultures. Old, foggy memories could be coming back to haunt us in highly subtle ways. It could be that every single 'ethnic' group that has ever dwelled on this planet once had a glorious past..... counter-balanced by an equally tragic past. If what goes around comes around for humans, then why doesn't this 'law' hold for larger entities such as races and continents? There is a reason behind all things. What does everyone here think about these notions?

[theist]

Mass or group karma is just another way of looking at individual karma. Ultimately when broken down it is all individual karma. Example: A group of individuals who have the karma to die in a plane crash are all boarded on a plane with that destiny. Only individuals who have that karma board the plane is the point. Then they seemingly die together but in reality we all die alone. The fact that we die in a similar fashion, at the same place and time do not alter the individual nature oif the event.

 

Another grouping would be say a group of people pool their money to buy lottery tickets and one day they win and split the prize. The money is split among individuals and spent as individuals although it appears the group won. In reality the group exists only as a concept and the final reality is always individual.

 

People of similar mind sets take birth in similar circumstance. So African mind sets take birth in Africa, Asian in Asia, Western in the West etc. but it always comes back to some individual taking birth.

[Sarva gattah]

 

Example: A group of individuals who have the karma to die in a plane crash are all boarded on a plane with that destiny. Only individuals who have that karma board the plane is the point. .

 

This is also the case for those who came and were born in the pioneering years of ISKCON when the exploitation, emotional, sexual and psychological abuse was over looked by the immature leadership at the time, we all get our karma eventually but if we surrender to Krishna without imitation, our rememberance of Krishna is protected but maybe not the vessel we are presently in.

 

If we look at this beyond sentimentality, then just like the so called innocent and young die or are injured seeming unjustly in war zones, abused in Catholic schools, or killed or horrificely injured in car accidents etc, then also those who where emotionally, psychologically and sexually abused in ISKCON, was also Karma.

 

We would all like to think that If the leadership was strong in their Krishna Consciousness, then such abuse and neglect can never happen. However lets be realistic, we cannot go from kindergarten to University over night

 

Remember ISKCON was born out of the 20th century human rights abuses, world wars, western degradation and LSD of the mid 20th century, so clearly those who first came to Prabhupada's movement in the late half of the 20th century and early 21st century, including the children, all carried their particular Karma.

 

 

Only individuals who have that karma board the plane is the point. .

[Shakti-Fan]

Srila Narayana Maharaja:

August 13, 2001

 

Some persons doubt that Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja was tri-kalajna, omniscient. They question that if he was omniscient, how could he have given the renounced order to so many disciples who have either fallen down or will fall down very soon. They say that it seems as though he never knew what would transpire in the future. Many ISKCON leaders are thinking that he was not omniscient, and that is why he gave sannyasa to many who later went to hell.

Those who think that he was not omniscient or that he made mistakes are wrong. They are totally wrong. They are not initiated in the real sense, and they cannot understand things properly because they are not associated with any high class of Vaisnava.

You are familiar with the history of Sri Ramacandra. Sita saw a deer grazing and She requested Rama to capture it. Rama then followed the deer for miles and miles, and finally He shot it. That deer was the demon Marica, and as he was dying he called out in Rama's voice, "O Laksmana! Save me! Save me!" As a result of this incident, Sita was kidnapped by Ravana.

Rama is omniscient. Why did He not know beforehand that Sita would be stolen by Ravana if He would pursue the deer? Why could He not have known? Why did He have to send Hanuman and others to search for Sita? Laksmana is akanda-guru-tattva, the personified principle of undivided or complete guru. Why did he leave Sita and then have to search for her?

In this regard one may also doubt Krsna and question: Why did Krsna do so wrong? Why could He not have warned the young Yadus when they presented the so-called pregnant 'girl' before the sages? Did He not know that the incident would later be the cause of the Yadus' fighting together and killing each other? If He knew, why did He not warn them? He could have prevented them all from dying.

Krsna knew, and Ramacandra knew. They both knew everything, but They were engaged in naravat-lila, human-like pastimes, playing the role of human beings. Whatever They did was for the welfare of the universe. Srila Swami Maharaja is a manifestation of Krsna, and whatever he did was also for the welfare of all. Foolish persons cannot reconcile all these things. Such persons are fallen souls. They are not actually sannyasis.

[Sarva gattah]

 

We would all like to think that if the leadership was strong in their Krishna Consciousness, in ISKCON then such abuse and neglect can never happen.

 

However lets be realistic, we cannot go from kindergarten to University over night

 

Remember ISKCON was born out of the human rights abuses, world wars, western degradation and LSD of the mid 20th century, so clearly those who first came to Prabhupada's movement in the late half of the 20th century and early 21st century, including the children, all carried their particular Karma.

 

Purification depends on dedication!!

 

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Srila Prabhupada is a pure servant of Krsna

 

Foolish persons cannot reconcile all these things and understand that every living entity is the designer of their own destiny and is respondible for their own karma that has accumulated over many births. These things are known by the real spiritual teachers like Srila Prabhupada

 

Krsna will never force the living entity to surrender, they must choose to surrender and only then are they protected from all good and bad karma - there is always choice, even in Goloka or Vaikuntha

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

Wonderful point

[Sarva gattah]

 

Mass or group karma is just another way of looking at individual karma.

 

Ultimately when broken down it is all individual karma. Example: A group of individuals who have the karma to die in a plane crash are all boarded on a plane with that destiny.

 

Only individuals who have that karma board the plane is the point. Then they seemingly die together, but in reality we all die alone.

 

The fact that we die in a similar fashion, at the same place and time does not alter the individual nature of the event.

 

Another grouping would be say, a group of people who pool their money to buy lottery tickets, then one day they win and split the prize. The money is split among individuals and spent as individually although it appears the group won.

 

In reality the group exists only as a concept and the final reality is always individual.

 

People of similar mind sets take birth in similar circumstance.

 

So the African mind sets take birth in Africa, Asian in Asia, Western in the West etc. but it always comes back to some individual taking birth.

 

A good explanation and brief insight on the workings of karma

[Sarva gattah]

 

 

Purification depends on dedication only then does Krsna protect us from karma!!

 

 

 

 

BY MAHANANDA DASA

 

Hare Krsna. Please accept my humble obeisances. I would like to look at this topic of the soul's position in the material world and the doctrine popping up occasionally that there is a whole genre of conditioned soul's who were created within the material world and never were in the spiritual world at all.

 

There are many arguments given by many scholars why we are mistaken in our thinking that we came from the spiritual world, such as the argument that it is impossible for A completely liberated soul to fall under illusion.

This doctrine has always rubbed me the wrong way, since I was satisfied with this simple idea passed on to us by Srila Prabhupada that once we WERE Krsna's servants but somehow we fell down and now He is sending His confidential servants to bring us back home. That was very reassuring and gave us great hope and impetus to take to this devotional service and GO back home.

But now certain scholars are offering extensive logic and reasoning to enlighten us to a different understanding. The soul's here couldn't have fallen and were in fact created here, they say. I must admit that this philosophy is depressing to me and causes confusion in the assembly of Vaisnavas. On COM there are some even today arguing against the illogic of thinking the soul actually came from Vaikuntha, and these scholars and logicians are relentless.

Mostly, the chief proponents of this doctrine are not very inclined to submissive hearing, but seem more to rely on their own strengths of logical reasoning. But herein lies the problem.

 

In the assembly of Vaisnavas, this submissive hearing and reliance on the blessings of Krsna within the heart to give sufficient understanding and realization are paramount. If we abandon this humility and submissive hearing from the realized soul and take shelter instead of our own reason and logic, we will open the door to delusion.

So, I would like to humbly submit the following conversation with our beloved spiritual master concerning this question of the soul's falling from Vaikuntha. He is asked directly whether we fall, and any submissive disciple who is hoping to understand this question can take this opportunity to hear from the actually authority. I offer this with great affection to my beloved godbrothers. Mahananda dasa

Devotee (4): Srila Prabhupada, you say in your books so many times that somehow or other we have fallen into this material world due to our enviousness or our independence.

Prabhupada: Many, there are many reasons.

 

Devotee (4): I can't seem to get a grasp on this at all. If we in our original constitutional position as part and parcel of Krsna, and in that position, that original position of full knowledge and full bliss and being in our eternal nature... Now I have some experience of how strong this material energy is and how Maya works somewhat, but if I had known this and had this full knowledge, then I would have had this knowledge of how Maya works and how I might fall.

Prabhupada: You read the life of Jaya, Vijaya, Hiranyakasipu,

 

Hiranyaksa? They were Krsna's doorkeepers. How they fell down? Did you read it? Did you read the life of Hiranyakasipu or

Hiranyaksa? Devotee (4): Yes, Prabhupada.

Prabhupada: So how they did fall? They are from Vaikuntha. They are Krsna's personal associates, keeping the doorkeepers. How did they fell down? Anyway, there is chance of falling down at any moment. Devotee (4): Well, in his family they wanted to enjoy the material world.

Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, the falldown is there. So because we are living entities, we are not as powerful as Krsna, therefore we may fall down from Vaikuntha at any moment. Iccha-dvesa samutthena sarge yanti parantapa. Find out this verse.

Pusta Krsna:

iccha-dvesa samutthena

dvandva-mohena bharata

sarva-bhutani sammoham

sarge yanti parantapa

"O scion of Bharata [Arjuna], O conqueror of the foe, all living entities are born into delusion, overcome by the dualities of desire and hate." Prabhupada: Purport.

Pusta Krsna: "The real constitutional position of the living entity is that of subordination to the Supreme Lord, who is pure knowledge. When one is deluded into separation from this pure knowledge, he becomes controlled by illusory energy and cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

The illusory energy is manifested in the duality of desire and hate. Due to desire and hate the ignorant person wants to become one with the Supreme Lord and envies Krsna as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Pure devotees, who are not so deluded or contaminated by desire and hate, can understand that Lord Sri Krsna appears by His internal potencies.

 

But those who are deluded by duality and nescience think that the Supreme Personality of Godhead is created by material energies.

 

This is their misfortune. Such deluded persons symptomatically dwell in dualities of dishonor and honor, misery and happiness, woman and man, good and bad, pleasure and pain, etc., thinking 'This is my wife, this is my house; I am the master Prabhupada: So even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that "Why shall I serve Krsna? Why not become Krsna?" I immediately fall down.

 

That is natural.

 

A servant is serving the master, sometimes he may think that "If I could become the master." They are thinking like that, they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he's wrongly thinking.

Vipina: Why doesn't Krsna protect us from that desire?

Prabhupada: He's protecting. He says, "You rascal, don't desire, surrender unto Me." But you are rascal, you do not do this.

Vipina: Why doesn't He save me from thinking like that?

Prabhupada: That means you lose your independence.

Vipina: And no love.

Prabhupada: That is force. (indistinct) prema. In Bengali it is said "If you catch one girl or boy, 'You love me, you love me, you love me."' Is it love? (laughter) "You love me, otherwise I will kill you." (laughter) Is that love?

 

So Krsna does not want to become a lover like that, on the point of revolver, "You love me, otherwise I shall kill you." That is not love, that is threatening. Love is reciprocal, voluntary, good exchange of feeling, then there is love, not by force. That is rape. The... Why one is called lover, another is called rape?

Vipina: But isn't it by force anyway? If we don't love Krsna, we suffer.

Prabhupada: That is your business. You'll suffer. But that Krsna does not force you. He says the real, "You love me, you'll be happy. If you don't love, you suffer." But that is your business.

Vipina: So what is the choice?

Prabhupada: Choice is yours. If you are rascal, you don't make the choice, the best choice. You suffer.

 

The rascals, they suffer. And intelligent men, they do not suffer.

 

If you are intelligent, then Krsna says that "You surrender to Me," you surrender, then you are intelligent. If you are rascal, then you reject and you suffer.

 

When a father says to his rascal son, "My dear son, you just hear me, do like this, you'll be happy." If he does not do it, he'll suffer. There is no other alternative.

Guest (2): Srila Prabhupada, why is the material world made on the level of a jailhouse? It's made on the level of a jailhouse, that, I've been told, the attitude of a jail instead of the attitude.

Prabhupada: Yes, because there will be so many criminals. Therefore government has to construct a jailhouse. It is government's not desire. It is expensive, unnecessary. But because there are rascals who will become criminal, the government has jailhouse. So one who wants to remain independent of Krsna, for them there is material world, "All right, you remain here."

Vipina: We also say that Krsna is fulfilling the desires of every living entity. So if we want to enjoy independent of Krsna, why doesn't He let us really enjoy independent of Him?

Prabhupada: That is not possible. That is maya it is called. You are not enjoyer, you are servant. Because you are willing to become enjoyer, you suffer, that's all. You are not enjoyer.

Vipina: Then He's not fulfilling the desire.

Prabhupada: No, you wanted to enjoy--enjoy at your risk. Sometimes you'll become the king of heaven, and sometimes you become the germs in the stool.

Vipina: Hm, enjoy at your risk. (laughter)

Prabhupada: Yes. No, that is the fact.

Vipina: Instead of under His protection, you enjoy at your risk.

Prabhupada: Therefore He advises, "Rascal, you give up all this enjoying spirit. You just surrender to Me, you'll be happy." But we don't accept it. Therefore sometimes we are in the heavenly kingdom, sometimes as a worm in the stool. That is going on.

 

 

[Ashvatama]

 

Remember ISKCON was born out of the 20th century human rights abuses, world wars, western degradation, LSD and struggles of the mid 20th century.

 

So clearly those who first came to Prabhupada's movement in the late half of the 20th century and early 21st century, including the children, all carried their particular Karma that all the first generation had to struggle so hard with to achieve purification.

 

Everyone should stop being so self rightious and understand the back ground of the 60s we have ALL come from =

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmysVoRBgyA

 

Prabhupada saved so many from what the songs above describe of what the world was like when Prabhupada arrived in New York in 1965

[bhaktajan]

As Originally Posted by Sucandra in the Thread "What is so great about Krishna":

 

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by SaiAyurveda

The great veil of Maya often tricks us into thinking of ourselves as separate from God and that is always the path of ignorance and leads us into ruin.

Om Sai Ram,

Arjun

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

Good point, the tricking of humanity into ignorance seems in full swing.

 

Present leaders of the world attach great importance to providing an external enemy: Nazis, Communists, Muslim Terrorists etc. This in return creates internal enemies based on race, sex and class.

 

Thus the whole setup perfectly diverts our attention from itself, the real enemy - godless leaders, who control our political, cultural and economic life with demoniac skill.

 

They don't even pretend to pose serious opposition. Bush has doubled the national debt and cut the value of the US dollar in half but do you hear any criticism for this?

 

On the international front, president Bush, PM Dr. Manmohan Singh, Ahmadinejad, Sarkozy, Merkel and Putin are all members of the same club.

 

Our leaders work for the international banking cartel, aided by a small army of dupes who may or may not be knowing what they actually trigger but have a keen sense of how to keep their high paying jobs.

 

Their goal, overthrow the values of human civilization and establish a primitive tyranny.

 

In Moscow there is communism, in New York capitalism. It is all the same as thesis and antithesis. Analyse both. Moscow is subjective communism but objectively State capitalism. New York, capitalism subjective, but communism objective.

 

In sum it represents the translation of an economic monopoly into absolute political, social and cultural control and involves the total destruction of the four pillars of dharma.

 

The overthrow of human civilization means the end of the belief that human beings are made in the image of God, i.e. we're spirit souls and have the potential using sadhana to evolve into better creatures living in a happier society in harmony with nature and God.

 

It means the end of the idea that God is our eternal Father who is the organizing principle behind actual human development.

 

Present political leaders consider that they cannot afford the luxury of man's spiritual advancement and conclude to arrest our development by transferring our loyalty from God to atheism. So they teach us there is no such thing as God, scripture or truth. They arrest our personal development by destroying marriage and family using taxation, porn and promiscuity.

They are destroying families by brainwashing women to seek careers instead of husbands and good children.

 

You can identify their agents as the people who “want to change the world.” These dupes don't realize that they are making it worse. “Progressive” is defined by their agenda as more and more control and world domination. They don't realize that so called social programs are temporary bribes to put their agents in power.

 

We are fed a diet of lies, trivia, sex and dogmas designed to make us dysfunctional and docile. They want us to be producers and consumers, debtors and drones -- animals, not human beings.

 

It is all closely associated with socialism and communism, as well as with organized crime, to combat knowledge of the real world and to ignore the facts from vedic culture.

 

Only entertainment that advances the atheist program will be tolerated. Literary and cinematic art reflect a decadent godless philosophy and fools us that it serves as an important psychological modification function.

 

Dupes are the overpaid people who maintain the “formal” and hoodwink the masses. This includes most successful people in media, science, education and culture.

 

Peoples lives are built on a monstrous fraud. Gradually we are being mentally enslaved by atheistic leaders. Humanity has passed into a twilight zone of chosing between genuine spirituality and evil tamasic existence.

 

Our only hope - that the spreading of Krishna's Holy Name cannot be stopped.

 

<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->.......................................................................................

 

The above describes the situation of mass Karma--Bhaktajan

[realist]

Srila Prabhupada - "So this is the karma-mimamsa theory: that everything is karma and if one does good karma, God has to give the result. So don't care for God, just care for karma. So that's the karma-mimamsa theory.

 

So if bhakti were, if one could get bhakti by karma, then where is Krsna, where is Krsna's independence".

[Ashvatama]

 

Peoples lives are built on a monstrous fraud. Gradually we are being mentally enslaved by atheistic leaders. Humanity has passed into a twilight zone of chosing between genuine spirituality and evil tamasic existence.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmysVoRBgyA

 

Our only hope - that the spreading of Krishna's Holy Name cannot be stopped.

 

Something wonderful will soon begin on a scale that no one has even imagined and it is all coming from the city of Mayapur