BBC: Encounter With An ISKCON Guru

[suchandra]

 

Louis Theroux's Encounter with a Guru

 

Fri, 07/03/2008 - 4:02pm — "This guy Louis Theroux from the BBC does these cheeky documentaries. In this one he goes to Mayapur and meets Jayapataka Swami. He manges to have some fun without being completely offensive":

 

(They've disabled embedding so you'll have to follow the link above.)

[krishnadasa]

 

 

Louis Theroux's Encounter with a Guru

 

Fri, 07/03/2008 - 4:02pm — "This guy Louis Theroux from the BBC does these cheeky documentaries. In this one he goes to Mayapur and meets Jayapataka Swami. He manges to have some fun without being completely offensive":

 

(They've disabled embedding so you'll have to follow the link above.)

 

Matter of fact, he was offensive there

[suchandra]

 

Matter of fact, he was offensive there

sriman Ekendra prabhu

 

Thanks Krishnadas for dropping a comment - it is no one else but famous Sri Sriman Ekendra prabhu, editor of dandavats.com, who wrote, "fun without being completely offensive".

HG Ekendra prabhu's blog:

http://www.gopala.org/node/193

[son_of_erin2000]

hilariouse, like the part where he says how he can get used to it )

[suchandra]

 

hilariouse, like the part where he says how he can get used to it )

Yes, it's hard, even someone becomes a jnani impersonalists, below it says, it will take many, many births to come to the level of understanding the Supreme Lord Sri Krishna.

 

 

[Beggar]

Perhaps if Jayapataka Maharaja would have waited until he was in a mature stage to take disciples, things would be seen in a different way. You have to remember that he began taking disciples at the age of 29 in 1978 under what now seems rather spurious circumstances. Compare this to most of the sannyasis in the GM derived maths who did not take disciples until they were in their 60s or 70s and after 40 or 50 years of practicing life. I think if the interviewer from the BBC had met one of them, he would have naturally had a more respectful attitude.

[suchandra]

 

Perhaps if Jayapataka Maharaja would have waited until he was in a mature stage to take disciples, things would be seen in a different way. You have to remember that he began taking disciples at the age of 29 in 1978 under what now seems rather spurious circumstances. Compare this to most of the sannyasis in the GM derived maths who did not take disciples until they were in their 60s or 70s and after 40 or 50 years of practicing life. I think if the interviewer from the BBC had met one of them, he would have naturally had a more respectful attitude.

Yes, when Prabhupada would have come as a young man to NY things would have been totally different, people may have been not so respectful, etc. Young gurus don't seem to work. Yesterday was a broadcast about the sadhus of Hrishikesh, they had passports saying 128, 140 years old. And people treated them really respectful.

 

Milla: I am not embarrassed in any way, but I am selective when it comes to tell people about it. Yes, ISKCON is a cult, but most people's idea of a cult is so off the wall that most can't understand my experience unless I spent hours explaining it, and this happens only with close friends.

 

I was quite open about my ISKCON experience until I talked to an acquaintance (the new girlfriend of a relative) about it. She was so genuinely sorry about how I got cheated by life and started asking all those sympathetic questions in the mood of "Oh, you poor loser" that I was startled. She was divorced and on disability benefits, with four teenagers three of whom had a severe form of ADHD, and she herself was going blind because of an incurable hereditary eye disease -- and still she thought that she should feel sorry for me because of my association with ISKCON. After that I became more careful what I say and to whom.

 

 

BABU: The dark pit that is iskcon... even the blind feel sorry for us.....

 

 

This is the result of worship of young, inexperienced gurus.

[Beggar]

 

 

This is the result of worship of young, inexperienced gurus.

But now many of them (the first and second wave of ISKCON gurus) are no longer young, being in their late 50s and early 60s. Some like like K-Swami and SDG are 70 or close. But the well was poisoned, so to speak when they began taking disciples at an immature stage. Even if he is somewhat sincere an ISKCON Western, "rock star" guru appears to the public like a glorified used car salesman. To make matters worse this "rock star" style is now an ingrained tradition, just calling gurus, rtvik gurus and not regular gurus might help a little but not that much.

[theist]

Nice little clip. I thought Jayapataka Swami came off really well as a down to earth chap and handle the situation really well. No pompousity. I would have liked to have seen the whole piece.

 

I have never been around Jayapataka Swmai. Is that his usual demeanor? Seemed approachable and nice or was that just for the camera?

 

His disciples seemed pleasant and happy as well.

 

I kinda expected a mocking of the Hare Krsna's and an attempt to make them look foolish but there was none of that in what I saw.

[Beggar]

If you remember, the BBC narrator/interviewer said, "it's been 23 years since the death of Prabhupada". This means that this video is from '00 or '01, 7 years ago. Even if one was a university professor studying ISKCON and Gaudiya Vaisnavism they would conclude that most Western, ISKCON gurus have no idea of the internal moods of the previous acaryas. Without these moods there is no possibility of real humility on the spiritual platform. But there can be an attempt to appear "down to earth". I thought that was the problem that we are shackled "down to earth"? Maybe it's better to go to Mayapura and grovel before Jayapataka Swami than be an ordinary materialistic person. But there will always be those who want more and that has caused quite a problem within ISKCON.

[theist]

Prabhupada was also what I would call down to earth. I use the term to mean non-pretentious and approachable. Krsna's representative taking a small room in the bowery of New York city. "Down Home Swami". Like that. That is how he came off in the clip which is all I was speaking to.

 

We should be able to say something positive about someone withut the need to throw some dirt at the same time. I'm no fan of the Iskcon system but these people are not satans incarnate either Beggar. C'mon now.

[suchandra]

 

Prabhupada was also what I would call down to earth. I use the term to mean non-pretentious and approachable. Krsna's representative taking a small room in the bowery of New York city. "Down Home Swami". Like that. That is how he came off in the clip which is all I was speaking to.

 

We should be able to say something positive about someone withut the need to throw some dirt at the same time. I'm no fan of the Iskcon system but these people are not satans incarnate either Beggar. C'mon now.

Well spoken Theist prabhu. Only problem, even if you want to join like two of my godbrothers, they don't take you. They say you should live near a temple and visit as a guest but not that you can live within ISKCON. This is yesteryear. ISKCON might take you when you work with a contract and getting paid. Also see, " I am becoming increasingly concerned that more and more people I talk to are simply at the temple because they are being paid." (Bh. David Haslam)

[gHari]

I think the down-to-earth attitude comes when one actually sees that everyone is serving Krsna (according to their present situation). Krsna's mercy is everywhere - even karma is His mercy. Tamo is moving to rajo, and rajo is moving to sattva, and sattva is becoming transcendental. It's all good - a wonderful world.

 

But it takes a while for that perspective.

[theist]

 

Well spoken Theist prabhu. Only problem, even if you want to join like two of my godbrothers, they don't take you. They say you should live near a temple and visit as a guest but not that you can live within ISKCON. This is yesteryear. ISKCON might take you when you work with a contract and getting paid. Also see, " I am becoming increasingly concerned that more and more people I talk to are simply at the temple because they are being paid." (Bh. David Haslam)

 

Yeah but who wants to join Iskcon? I am aware of the problems there. They built a big church and now they can't avoid to heat it. But if I see a group of Iskcon devotees out chanting kirtan on the street I can appreciate that wonderful service without getting all worked up over these other things.

 

I see two mistaken positions on this subject and I understand them both because I have held both positions. There is the Iskcon can do no wrong, everyone in iskcon is a good devotee angle. And then there is there is Iskcon is all screwed up and everyone connected there is being duped and the gurus are all fakes etc. Undo attraction and unnecessary aversion. Both states of mind are states of material attachment.

 

Now I don't even want to think about iskcon as far as it's a non-factor in my life for the most part. If I see something good I try to acknowledge it as such and move on. If I see something negative I may comment but I have no need to dwell on it beyond that.

 

As far as this clip goes it was little light hearted thing that I thought showed the devotees in a good light. Nothing more or less.

[theist]

 

I think the down-to-earth attitude comes when one actually sees that everyone is serving Krsna (according to their present situation). Krsna's mercy is everywhere - even karma is His mercy. Tamo is moving to rajo, and rajo is moving to sattva, and sattva is becoming transcendental. It's all good - a wonderful world.

 

But it takes a while for that perspective.

 

Yeah. Advanced devotees actually see that Krishna's hand is everywhere and controlling everything and as you point out everyone is moving to His will.

[theist]

 

I was actually trying to find that picture where Srila Prabhupada is stepping over a drunk on the steps to get up to his room. If that drunk was especially blessed a particle of dust may have dropped upon him.

[suchandra]

 

Yeah but who wants to join Iskcon?

Good question, something like institutionalized religion vs. approaching God outside of any institutions?

 

Since we live in the age of privatisation where even Cuba, Russia or Catholic Church are private property, could be that Gaudiya Vaishnavism is by now also a private property although they fool us to be split into camps.

 

Yadu: "About thirty years ago, when Virabahu and I were serving together at the BBT, referring to Pramana Swami and Viraha Prakash Goswami-who were the leaders in Venezuela who created the first split in ISKCON after Srila Prabhupada's departure-Virabahu personally told me: "They could never have done what they did, if I had not supported them". I remember this well.

 

He told me these things with a strong voice, with conviction, and pride. Thus, in the first conflict in ISKCON in the post-Prabhupada era, Virabahu was behind, by the confession of his own words. And this was a split from which ISKCON Venezuela has never recovered. Since that time the Venezuelan yatra has been at the botton of Latin America, barely existing. But during Srila Prabhupada's time it was at the top, as it is proved by the fact that it was the only country Srila Prabhupada visited in the whole South American Continent."

 

 

Prabhupada: Yes. Everyone is required. But he must be a Vaisnava. That’s all. Actually none of us belong to any group. They are servant of Krsna, and for Krsna’s sake he can act as a brahmana, as a ksatriya, as a vaisya or a sudra. It doesn’t matter. It is all Krsna’s service. Just like he is giving massage. That does not mean he’s a sudra. This is actual sudra’s business, servant. But he’s not a sudra. Similarly, we can act for Krsna in any position. We do not belong to this material occupation or platform. Sa gunan samatityaitan brahma-bhuyaya kalpate. This is to be dwelled on. He’s above all this nonsense. Brahma-bhuyaya means liberated. Jivan-mukta sa ucyate. Jivan-mukta means he may act in this life as a ksatriya, brahmana, sudra. It doesn’t matter. But he’s liberated. He’s not going to take birth again. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti. A sudra cannot get that position. So try to understan d our philosophy thoroughly and distribute it. Janma sarthaka kari’ kara paropakara. At least nobody can defeat our philosophy in the whole world. That position we have.

Conversation 1/23/77

 

[Kulapavana]

 

But now many of them (the first and second wave of ISKCON gurus) are no longer young, being in their late 50s and early 60s. Some like like K-Swami and SDG are 70 or close. But the well was poisoned, so to speak when they began taking disciples at an immature stage. Even if he is somewhat sincere an ISKCON Western, "rock star" guru appears to the public like a glorified used car salesman. To make matters worse this "rock star" style is now an ingrained tradition, just calling gurus, rtvik gurus and not regular gurus might help a little but not that much.

 

In Iskcon most people were trained to accept everything on faith and that is why we have this tremendous imbalance between the form and the content, between the show and the real thing. Just slapping another label on it will not help. Devotees need to learn to think for themselves instead of blindly repeating what their guru says, or what other people say their guru said. Their critical thinking ability was simply amputated when they joined, and often even a feeble attempt of critical thinking is seen by them as a lack of surrender, or worse yet, an aparadha.

 

For better or worse, it was Srila Prabhupada who introduced guru worship on a grand scale in Iskcon (like the daily guru-puja in front of the Deities, while Tulasi is being worshipped with the Deity curtains closed, for example), and who elevated the position of a guru to a super-hero status. Of course that these changes had a profound impact on our movement - they practically defined it! But if you mention it in general conversation you are seen as much worse then a heretic. So much for rational thinking.

 

Now the same people who worship Prabhupada to a point of personal histeria insist that all other gurus must be cut down to size 1, and at best turned into religious clerics. They are no better then the folks who still think Satswarupa is a Vaishnava guru in good standing, and their thinking is equally biased and emotional.

 

Jayapataka Swami and other Iskcon gurus emulate behavior which they have learned from Prabhupada. Plain and simple. In his case there was a real substance behind the show, in their case... well, you be the judge, but in my opinion mostly it was just a show.

 

Today some of Iskcon gurus inspire a lot of new people in a very positive way and deserve the respect they get, but some do not, and that is why we have this sweet rice and sand combination that is present day Iskcon.

[Beggar]

There are many ISKCONisms, especially behaviors which were never something taught or emulated by Srila Prabhupada. ISKCON sannyasis for the most part had a general style by the mid 70s, only some of which was learned from Srila Prabhupada. The other behaviors were learned from "senior" sannyasis that were either misinterpreted or just concocted. The ISKCONites have had their chances to go out and observe how GM sannyasis behave, but for the most part they are not so interested or they are restricted by others who have no interest. So they go on with their odd, often egotistical ways (rock star guru) and now of course, so many are "gurus" and these behavior styles are now used in this realm. How can one teach acar (acarya) if they themselves don't know the proper way to act?

[suchandra]

 

Now the same people who worship Prabhupada to a point of personal histeria insist that all other gurus must be cut down to size 1, and at best turned into religious clerics.

Yes, Srila Prabhupada "conducted initiations by using proxies", priests, starting around 1970. Many devotees in Europe were initiated for example by Revatinandana swami chanting on their beads in England.

 

Of course the Gaudiya Matha criticized this process at the time and they still do.

And there're lots of ISKCONites even on this forum who also say, "Srila Prabhupada is not preaching according to sastra because proxies is a deviation".

 

Yes, by now lots of people seem to know sastra better than the acaryas. And the end result of their system is: inefficient leaders were/are being worshipped as world acaryas.

 

Mainly these rubber stamped gurus produced one thing, splitting ISKCON into many inefficient mini missions, although saying, we're still one ISKCON.

 

"Judge a thing by its result". If ISKCON would have remained unified and not splitted up into many different mini camps there would not have been such a mass exodus.

 

Instead of an efficient global network for spreading Krishna's Holy Name and other important spiritual projects ordered by Prabhupada, what do we have now, a constant withdrawing from the actual front-line to fight kali-yuga in NA and EU.

 

The power of an efficient global network gone. People even fighting over properties.

[Kulapavana]

 

Yes, Srila Prabhupada "conducted initiations by using proxies", priests, starting around 1970. Many devotees in Europe were initiated for example by Revatinandana swami chanting on their beads in England.

 

Of course the Gaudiya Matha criticized this process at the time and they still do.

And there're lots of ISKCONites even on this forum who also say, "Srila Prabhupada is not preaching according to sastra because proxies is a deviation".

 

Yes, by now lots of people seem to know sastra better than the acaryas. And the end result of their system is: inefficient leaders were/are being worshipped as world acaryas.

 

Mainly these rubber stamped gurus produced one thing, splitting ISKCON into many inefficient mini missions, although saying, we're still one ISKCON.

 

"Judge a thing by its result". If ISKCON would have remained unified and not splitted up into many different mini camps there would not have been such a mass exodus.

 

Instead of an efficient global network for spreading Krishna's Holy Name and other important spiritual projects ordered by Prabhupada, what do we have now, a constant withdrawing from the actual front-line to fight kali-yuga in NA and EU.

 

 

yes, what we really need is another "miracle cure-all" (snake oil) which will magically transform unqualified gurus into faithful ritviks, thus solving all our problems...

 

Srila Prabhupada introduced the "initiation by proxy" system for the sake of expediency, so that he could concentrate on writing books and taking care of more important matters. To insist that this is somehow a proper system to follow after his departure is simply another example of zero ability to think critically.

[Kulapavana]

 

There are many ISKCONisms, especially behaviors which were never something taught or emulated by Srila Prabhupada. ISKCON sannyasis for the most part had a general style by the mid 70s, only some of which was learned from Srila Prabhupada. The other behaviors were learned from "senior" sannyasis that were either misinterpreted or just concocted.

 

Can you give specific examples?

[suchandra]

 

yes, what we really need is another "miracle cure-all" (snake oil) which will magically transform unqualified gurus into faithful ritviks, thus solving all our problems...

 

Srila Prabhupada introduced the "initiation by proxy" system for the sake of expediency, so that he could concentrate on writing books and taking care of more important matters. To insist that this is somehow a proper system to follow after his departure is simply another example of zero ability to think critically.

 

Right ISKCON will follow anyway a different system because they are already saying their gurus need corrections, supsensions, excommunications.

It should be clear, they are discussing priests not gurus.

[Beggar]

 

Can you give specific examples?

First off, do you really think that Srila Prabhupada was like a rock star?

He carried himself in a regal, yet very, very humble manner. You have not been around ISKCON sannyasi gurus when they were behaving in an egotistical manner? It takes a great deal of association with an acarya to learn how they act in different situations and emulate that. I think its hard to be specific because much of it comes down to when to show the abhiman, which is almost a kind of pride of carrying the emblem of the sampradaya and when to exhibit a natural humility. When showing the guru abhiman, souls who are realized will not actually feel prideful but rather it is just a show for the disciples and others. An unrealized person on the other hand will not be able to carry this out. They will not catch the big fish without getting wet. So "getting wet" or allowing our ego to run amuck in the name of representing the sampradaya is something I saw in many ISKCON sannyasis in the 70s before Prabhupada's disappearance. Those who were most senior should have known better but by 76 and 77 I saw that most were not even making a show of checking their egotism. When that was translated into the guruship of the first 11 a year or two later, it led to disaster. But the next generation of ISKCON gurus in the 80s showed much of the same attitude. Certainly there are and were notable exceptions, such as Sripad Gour Govinda Maharaja and Sripad Swarupa Damodara Maharaja and a few others. So since the above named are of Indian backgrounds it then brings up another issue, which is quite obvious. Can Westerners or even very Westernized Indians put their pride and egos aside enough to be humble acaryas who set such an example for others? How to continue the sampradaya but end the ISKCON rock star guru syndrome?

[Kulapavana]

 

First off, do you really think that Srila Prabhupada was like a rock star?

He carried himself in a regal, yet very, very humble manner. You have not been around ISKCON sannyasi gurus when they were behaving in an egotistical manner? It takes a great deal of association with an acarya to learn how they act in different situations and emulate that. I think its hard to be specific because much of it comes down to when to show the abhiman, which is almost a kind of pride of carrying the emblem of the sampradaya and when to exhibit a natural humility.

 

No, Srila Prabhupada was not like a rock star but he seemed to enjoy pomp and circumstance and his guru-abhimaana was displayed quite often. His humility was there as well, of course, but externally it was quite different.

 

Anyway, I understand what you are saying. Thank you.