God: two Possibilities

[gHari]

TOO MANY COOKS SPOIL THE SOUP.

 

 

<img src=http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/mba/lowres/mban649l.jpg>

[thehat]

Maybe you didn't understand the prescribed literature? These problems you have are answered very clearly in the books.

 

Maybe you didn't understand? It is quite advanced reading.

 

However, If you sincerely want resolution in regards to your predicament read the bhagavad-gita. Every single supposed problem you have is explained in the Bhagavad-Gita. Your understanding of karma is completely wrong. You say there is good karma and bad, but where is Krishna? You need to understand the very reasons we have karma in the first place.

 

You propose that if someone wants to lose weight they should go to the gym rather than pray - forgetting entirely that not even a blade of grass moves without the sanction of Krishna.

 

This is why I am questioning your understanding in the first place. It seems as if you have a very westernized/christian concept of whatGod actually is and how he works.

You're trying to figure it out according to your own personal whims rather than absorb the knowledge from the authoritative sources.

Or you just don't get it all togehter. In this case I wish you all the best in your next life.

 

Without a clear understanding of how this science operates of course one would turn away from Krishna.

 

There are so many things you've listed which are just plain wrong. I personally am baffled as to how one can claim that Krishna is not, or Krishna is like this without even understanding from proper sources in the first place.

 

Suppose you're a computer engineer and that i'm a horticulturist and I come and tell you what is involved in your field, how to do your job etc which you've clearly studied/examined/followed. It's ridiculous - you'd be thinking this idiot claims to understand what I'm doing without any qualification or actual understanding.

 

So my dear friend, in conclusion I am not sure exactly what the purpose of your rant is and why you have even bothered as all these people actually have a concise understanding of the philosophy. I can honestly find no merit in any of your words, but I sympathize in your respect because I too was in a similar position. Without doing the research and willing to learn I had just submit to the apparent easier path. Oh and of course I claimed the path to be the superior one, though it was just animal life.

 

Anyhow, please have a little decency in this forum from now on before you attack Krishna please. Or at least cultivate the proper knowledge first.

 

Why don't you try to disprove the existence of consciousness/soul before you try disproving Krishna. You atheists love to cut that step out. Do not forget; By the laws of material science God is not the only thing that doesn't exist...

All the best redsox, I'm sorry if I came off too strong in this message. I'm merely trying to stress emphasis on the literature that explains your problems. If you'd fully read/understood it and then explained why you didn't like it that would be something else. Instead you're stating how it is based on personal whim.

[Redsox]

Yah you are probably right thehat, I will act with a bit more decency in the future and refrain from such emotionally charged rants.

 

With that said, I will agree that I don't understand the scripture with its apparent contradictions, but I will also point out that you don't understand it any more than I do. Neither does anyone who comes to this forum, even that ghari character over there doesn't understand it any better... and I will tell you what, when you do understand it better, feel free to declare it to the world and I will gladly follow back in your footsteps to krishna. Until then, keep trying to attain that God, lol , you will get pissed off from the lack of reciprocation from your beloved God soon enough lol , but don't take my word for it.

 

If you want a justification from me as to why I posted this rant here, as if there was some devious reason behind it, well I am sorry to say that there isn't any. I posted what I felt like, it was a spontaneous action, I even said that was my last post and i am posting again and again, it just shows that my state of mind was different when I posted my first post as it is different now. this is merely a discussion.

[Redsox]

 

TOO MANY COOKS SPOIL THE SOUP.

 

 

Let me tell you what that means to me because I don't understand your point entirely. Too many people try to define God that they miss the point entirely that god is a myth- They spoil the soup.

 

Or

 

Too many peple try to seek God in order to taste that higher essence of an already existing God, but God on the other hand is so cruel and horrible, He just doesn't care for the petty existence of beings on this pathetic planet, hence he spoils the soup himself.

[Redsox]

 

And that is a subjective opinion. But what if it's true? You're approaching it from the angle "what if it's not true?"

 

One doesn't need to wait til the next life to find out if this process works. Ultimately, as Sriman George Harrison said, "The proof is in the pudding." There must be some taste, otherwise we will eventually give it up. Or some deep impressions of having experienced that taste in the past. Have you never experienced any joy from engaging in any of the 9 limbs of Bhakti Yoga, beginning with hearing, chanting, and remembering?

 

Ok there were some good moments in sadhana, I felt at peace many times, but as all mind trips have a beginning and an ending so did those phases.

[gHari]

 

Let me tell you what that means to me because I don't understand your point entirely. Too many people try to define God that they miss the point entirely that god is a myth- They spoil the soup.

 

Or

 

Too many peple try to seek God in order to taste that higher essence of an already existing God, but God on the other hand is so cruel and horrible, He just doesn't care for the petty existence of beings on this pathetic planet, hence he spoils the soup himself.

TOO MANY COOKS SPOIL THE SOUP.

 

To me, this means: "Jaya Prabhupada"! "Jaya Bhaktisiddhanta"! "Jaya Gaurakisora"! "Jaya Bhaktivinoda"! "Jaya Jagannatha"! "Jaya Nityananda"! "Jaya Gauranga"! "Jaya Madhavendra"! "Jaya Madhva"! "Jaya Vyasa"! "Jaya Narada"! "Jaya Sri Brahma"! "Hari Hari Jai Sri Krsna"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Redsox]

 

TOO MANY COOKS SPOIL THE SOUP.

 

To me, this means: "Jaya Prabhupada"! "Jaya Bhaktisiddhanta"! "Jaya Gaurakisora"! "Jaya Bhaktivinoda"! "Jaya Jagannatha"! "Jaya Nityananda"! "Jaya Gauranga"! "Jaya Madhavendra"! "Jaya Madhva"! "Jaya Vyasa"! "Jaya Narada"! "Jaya Sri Brahma"! "Hari Hari Jai Sri Krsna"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I respect that, I hope you all find what you need to in your life.

[Beggar]

Srila Sridhar Maharaj:

 

The world begins within misconception. When you

have the proper conception, then you can read Krishna

lila everywhere. Everything will excite you about

Vrndavana. You won’t see the outward thing if you are

relieved from misconception. A madman has a maladjusted

brain. He may be in the midst of friends, but he is lost in

his madness, his paranoia. When he goes back to his normal

position, he finds the same thing – all friends. In the same

way, everything is all right – only the disease, our misconception

needs to be removed.

[Inedible]

 

Why does the world need a savior ? from what? from themselves? from their own karmic tendencies that keep hurting them? lol, you've got yourself, there is no God and it doesn't matter if there is one.

 

Good question.

 

A long time ago I read that some guy name Brahma is asleep and dreaming the universe, and that when Brahma wakes up the universe will disappear. We are all just characters in his dream. It is just a matter of scale. When you go to sleep at night the characters in your dreams don't need saving from anything, do they?

[Beggar]

Srila Sridhar Maharaj

The Subjective Evolution of Consciousness

 

...I have had personal experience of this. When I was

twenty-three, I had some deep and natural indifference to

the world. At that time I had an experience of the reality of

consciousness. I felt the material world floating on

consciousness just as cream floats on milk. Conscious

reality is much deeper than the apparent reality of our

present experience. The world of experience is like cream

floating on milk which is the mind. This physical world is

only the visible portion of reality floating over the mental

world. I felt this myself. When there is a huge quantity of

milk, the cream that floats over the milk and covers it is very

meager. In the same way, I could feel at that time that

this physical world is only a meager portion of reality, and

that the subtle world, which is at present in the background,

is far more vast. The mental world is a huge and

vast reality, and the physical world is a small cover over that

mental world.

Whatever can be perceived by the eye, the ear, the

tongue, the nose, the skin – any of the external senses – is

only a covering of reality. In Srimad-Bhågavatam, Prahlåda

Mahåråj says, na te viduh svårtha-gatim hi visnu, durasayå

ye bahir-artha-måninah. We are making too much of the

covering of reality, we are devoting our minds to the

external coating – bahir-artha-måninah – but we do not

dive deep into the eternal substance. If only we were to dive

deep into reality, there we would find Visnu. The most

peaceful substance is within, but it is covered, just as milk

is covered by cream, and we are making much of that

cover. The real substance is within, just as fruit is covered

by its skin. What we experience at present is the cover,

the skin, and we are making much of that, ignoring the very

substance which the cover is protecting.

The primary step in the search for truth is to penetrate

the covering and find the knower within. And then begin

our analysis. What is he? Is he an atom like an atomic

particle of dust? Or is he a fantastic atom in the conscious

plane? At first we must approach reality in this way. There

is the knower and the unknown, the inquirer and the

inquired.

Try to find yourself. Then gradually, you will come to

know that you are the soul, the particle of consciousness

within. And just as you are spirit covered by matter, the

whole world is also like that; the spiritual reality within is

covered. Upon realizing your self as spirit soul, you will be

able to see that everything is a part of consciousness. Within

the world of consciousness, worlds of different sorts of

experience are floating. In the conscious sea, the sun, the

moon, trees, stones, human beings, our friends, and our

enemies are all floating. As we approach the spiritual plane,

we will find it to be nearer to our real self. And in this way,

we will see that matter is far, far away, but the soul is near.

Try to conceive of reality along these lines. Soul, spirit,

consciousness, is nearer to the soul and you are a child of

that soil. Matter is far, far away. But the interrupting planes

are so close together that we don’t see the nature of spiritual

reality, just as if you put your hand over your eye,

you can’t see the hand. But if the hand is only one foot

away, we can see it very clearly. Sometimes what is very

close, we cannot see. I may be able to see so many things,

but I cannot see myself.

Although the Buddhists and other atheists argue that

consciousness is a material thing, I say that there is no

material thing. If I am to answer the question of whether

or not consciousness is produced from matter, then I shall

say that nothing is material. Whatever we feel is only a

part of consciousness. Everything is an idea. We are

concerned only with consciousness from the beginning to

the end of our experience. Beyond that we cannot go.

Everything is an idea: the stone, the tree, the house, the

body – all are ideas. The plane of consciousness is very

much closer to us than we perceive. And what is shown as

a particular thing is far away. We are involved only with

ideas. We can’t go outside that. Everything within our

experience is a part of our mind.

[indulekhadasi]

 

I am sorry if I came across as offensive to vaishnavas- I don't mean to agitate your belief system at all, do what you want, as i have said before, this is a simple rant, lol. but yes I am giving up faith in God completely. I see no point in it anymore.

 

Anyway I think i am done now. c ya audarya fellowship, will be back when I feel like it again.

 

Ok now is the time for explaining.

 

When Draupadi was going to be stripped of her clothing by Dushasana she cried out to Krishna but He did not come right away. Why?

She was not totally dependent on Him. She looked for shelter elsewhere such as her husbands, Dhritarastra, and other assembled kings while half heartedly crying for Krishna. She then tightly held on to her sari. Only when she let go of everything she owned, threw her hands up in the air in total surrender then Krishna came.

Can you claim that you are totally surrendered? I can say that I am not. It takes a long time to be surrendered.

 

I am so sad to see you go, may Krishna give you the intelligence to come back to Him. It pains me when I see a person take a step foward towards Krishna but then decides to walk back again. I enjoyed the times with you when we were naming different names of Krishna. To see you have fallen back from these types of activities gives me much pain.

[bhaktajan]

A) Hey Sri Paramatma!

Aham Bhaktajan, please give Redsox all Artha, kama, dharma and moksa, all 7 feminine opulences, all good wealth, all good health, all good happiness, an all good mate, and Krishna-Prema.

 

B) Also, make Redsox stop making the gopis cry!

 

As It says somewhere in sastra [correct me if I am wrong]:

 

"I am so sad to see you go, may Krishna give you the intelligence to come back to Him. It pains me when I see a person take a step foward towards Krishna but then decides to walk back again. I enjoyed the times with you when we were naming different names of Krishna. To see you have fallen back from these types of activities gives me much pain."

 

C) Get yourself to a temple feast [this friday is Gaura-Purnima] and eat as much maha-prasadam as can be begged, borrowed, stolen, in exchange for some donation, and or asked for: Then you'll be satiated without doubt. [tip #1: honor the prasadam at a very-very-very slow pace, do not rush] [tip #2: take home as much left over prasadam as possible and repeat the above at home at a very-very-very slow pace].

 

D) Remember, you were born alone and will die alone unless you know all the devatas are awaiting your "return".

 

ys,

bhaktajan

 

 

[Beggar]

 

B) Also, make Redsox stop making the gopis cry!

 

__________________

2/19/41 ---Cher Monsieur, cette image me conduit graduellement....insane complètement aliéné, je dis. Arrêtez svp, veuillez assez. Je vous prie.

[Tirisilex]

Redsox,

 

Maybe you should be a Buddhist.. They are Atheists..

[indulekhadasi]

 

As It says somewhere in sastra [correct me if I am wrong]:

"I am so sad to see you go, may Krishna give you the intelligence to come back to Him. It pains me when I see a person take a step foward towards Krishna but then decides to walk back again. I enjoyed the times with you when we were naming different names of Krishna. To see you have fallen back from these types of activities gives me much pain."

 

Bhaktajan prabhuji, you are surely joking- right?

[Beggar]

 

Bhaktajan prabhuji, you are surely joking- right?

 

__________________

2/19/41 ---Bhaktjan Prabhu is a very grave and serious devotee and never jokes.

Monsieur Bhaktjan Prabhu est un passionné très grave et sérieux et jamais des plaisanteries.

[bhaktajan]

That qoute is something I heard from the sages. It is called sruti.

I don't know what sastra it is in --probably in Nectar of Devotion(?).

 

It is certainly an estoteric quote by a brijabasi scolding someone for turning their back on Krishna's lila. Such a sense of seperation from Krishna is certainly an spiritually elevated sentiment that can be found only in the sublime Vaisnava literatures.

 

How is that I am to be kidding?

[indulekhadasi]

 

That qoute is something I heard from the sages. It is called sruti.

I don't know what sastra it is in --probably in Nectar of Devotion(?).

 

It is certainly an estoteric quote by a brijabasi scolding someone for turning their back on Krishna's lila. Such a sense of seperation from Krishna is certainly an spiritually elevated sentiment that can be found only in the sublime Vaisnava literatures.

 

How is that I am to be kidding?

 

Ha, ha. But you also quoted the part where I said that I enjoyed talking with him about different names of Krishna and I was sad that he fell back from such activites, so I was confused.

 

Thanks for clarifying.

indulekhadasi

[indulekhadasi]

 

Ok there were some good moments in sadhana, I felt at peace many times, but as all mind trips have a beginning and an ending so did those phases.

 

Yes, those were when your sadhana was not performed purely enough. Probably you were relieved when you put down your japa bag and were engaged in something else. This is the case with most of us right now but we are not giving up hope like you, because we know that with time and when we get more devotee association things will be much different.

 

indulekhadasi

[Beggar]

 

This is the case with most of us right now but we are not giving up hope like you, because we know that with time and when we get more devotee association things will be much different.

indulekhadasi

 

Do you mean quantity or quality?

[Beggar]

 

 

AND KRISHNA COMES TO THIS PLANET every few years TO SHOW OFF HIS HAREM.

 

Sridhar Maharaj

The Subjective Evolution of Consciousness

 

The highest development is ujjvala-rasa. Ujjvala-rasa

means super-fine, the brightest, surpassing all, where we

find Krishna in consorthood without any consideration of

any law. Autocratic consorthood. And this particular

nature and behavior is described in a book written by

Rupa Goswåmi titled Ujjvala-niamani. The first part of

devotion is given in Bhakti-rasåmrta-sindhu. In that book,

from the very beginning of an ordinary civilized religious

life, Rupa Goswåmi takes us up to different devotional

relationships sånta, dåsya, sakhya, våtsalya, and mådhura rasa.

But the details of mådhura-rasa, the highest relationship

with Krishna, has been described by Rupa

Goswåmi in Ujjvala-nilamai. Nilamani, Krishna, in his

highest luster: ujjvala. Nilamani in consorthood. And

what are Krishna’s characteristics? How does he play with

his paraphernalia in the mådhura-rasa? That has been

described in detail in Ujjvala-nilamani.

Even the greatest literary scholars are dumbfounded to

find how divine love has been analyzed so finely and elaborately

in this book of Rupa Goswåmi. Subtle points have

been analyzed, organized, and distributed in that book.

And the great scholars become dumbfounded when they

come to such statements. As Bhågavatam says: muhyanti yat

surayah. In the introduction, Bhågavatam gives this warning,

this caution to the scholars: “You will all be dumbfounded

when you attempt to come to this plane. Scholarship will

not allow you to flourish here.” The nature of that plane is

so mysterious that even great scholars won’t be considered

fit to enter there.

[indulekhadasi]

 

Do you mean quantity or quality?

 

Quality of devotion will go up and quantity of anarthas will go down. It may take many lifetimes but we must not give up hope.

[theist]

 

Redsox: People are fearful about their existence, as they get old, they fear of what is going to happen to them as death approaches. Their bodies degenerate, and they lose strength, but their clinging to life and desire to exist is such that they have to have a way to think that they will exist after this life, hence they hold on to a permanent existence, when there is no such thing.

Who are you trying to bluff? You have no idea what happens at death and after yet you make such such an absolute statement.

 

 

 

...but the funny thing is I know and have seen many religious people pray , pray and pray and they meet their demise when the time comes, it is inevitable.

Yes everyone passes through death. Death which is a tangible manifestation of time rules everything in the material world for the theist and atheist alike.

 

The theists understands that beyond the time manifestation of God as the absolute power of this world the Lord exists in an all-attractive form Who wants only to engage in love exchanges with His devotees.

 

The atheist only can comprehend God as time in the form of death the absolute power of the material world. But still the atheist must accept God in that all-devouring form as you alluded to above. So don't say you no longer believe in God. You do. Only your conception of God rises no further than the death of the body.

 

We can only relate to God as far as our conceptions or realizations of Him allow. So for you God is death only. You will meet God in this form over and over until you progress.

 

When Arjuna saw the universal form devouring all in the universe he asked, "Who are you".

 

In answer,

The Blessed Lord said: Time I am and I have come to engage all people. Everyone except you the Pandavas will be slain [on this battlefield]. BG 11:32

[Redsox]

Ofcourse you know what happens at death, the body becomes useless , there is no life in it. I don't need to know anything more.

It is not me bluffing, its the religion that is bluffing...

No matter how much I may try to convince myself. I cannot believe in all these stories. Example: one of the stories I have a hard time believing is the whole moon story and how moon got to be on shiva's head: ready? here goes:

moon planet supposedly was married to 27 stars, but he only likes rohini and because of that Daksha (father of these 27 stars) gave him a curse to lose his splendor and then he ran to back to Shiva for help, and Vishnu saved him by spliting the moon god into two bodies, one body where he kept his splendor and another body where he had the danger of becoming ugly... but shiva gave him a boon that as long as he is on his head, he won't lose his splendor, and this is why he is on Shiva's head (get a picture of shiva, you will see the moon on his head).

There are plenty of stories like that and they just seem like myths even in bhagavatam, and this leads people to claim that there is only one sun in the universe or that moon is farther than the sun. These things are based on speculation, so if the people who narrated bhagavatam are wrong about things like these, what should convince me that they are right when they claim God is Krishna who has two hands, or that God is brahman, or that God is shiva or that God exists at all?

 

Another thing that leads me to conclude that this is all not in accordance to reality is the apparent contradictions. According to shaivites Shiva and shakti create Vishnu, who creates brahma and he creates this world.

According to Vaishnavites, the whole world is created and permeated by Vishnu,

According to Jnanis, there was never a creation at all, this is all an incredible illusion like a dream, and we are all dream objects in the mind of Brahman.

According to Shakti Worshippers, The devi Ma, is the real truth, all else is false.

Then you have other religions,

Christianity suggests all of this is wrong, what hindus worship are demons and say that God will send them to hell, and even suggests that God is jealous and will punish you when you don't worship him.

 

On the other hand , there is Islam, that suggests that Allah is to be feared and all infidels in the camp of the non believers (by that they mean any nonmuslim) are going to be tortured forever and destroyed, unless they are converted back.

 

Who is right? they all claim to be right in their own way, and they all suggest the other one is wrong, and they all have some crazy story pertaining to how this entire universe came about and what one needs to do to please that all powerful God. Then there are those who get so involved in all these stories that they start hating the other religion while being biased to their own.

 

No religious person can ever stop hurricanes, but they try to justify them. Some people like pat robertson even suggest that hurricanes in certain regions happen because God was angry at them and wanted to punish them. For instance, he claimed the T-sunami hit India and indonesia because they were worshipping demons, they weren't worshipping God.

 

See how ridiculous all these people sound? How can you even claim that God exists when you look at all this. It seems that God is nothing more than an imaginary figure used to control the masses and put them in line through subjugation. Sometimes God is used to keep age old traditions alive... like the sandya vandanam that brahmins carry out.

[Redsox]

 

Ok now is the time for explaining.

 

When Draupadi was going to be stripped of her clothing by Dushasana she cried out to Krishna but He did not come right away. Why?

She was not totally dependent on Him.

 

lol this is funny. on one hand, not even a blade of grass bends without krishna's approval, so everyone is dependent on krishna. On the other hand, you have to "surrender" give up control, when in the first place, the control itself is not yours to give. Ha!

 

Let me ask you this, today, a woman is raped in the world every 2 mins, where is krishna? is he waiting for them to give up control?

 

Do you think if everyone in the world stops their respective work (whatever he/she does) , goes to a temple and starts praying 24/7 and surrenders to krishna this way, they will get food instantaneously out of the sky? maybe its difficult for the whole world, but what about one person then? Will he get his food on the table if he quits his job and goes on to realize the ultimate truth that is krishna? I don't think so. In fact, he will starve to death, even when he claims that krishna is the "abundant reservoir" like prabhupada might claim.

No offense to prabhupada though, he is a nice old man, I respect him , he tried to get people to stop using drugs and stop killing animals.