theist Posted March 13, 2008 Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 You had no problems copying a long islamic web page and posting it here. You cannot object to others who respond to your post by copying and posting long web pages. Just like you will not read them, they did not read yours in full either. This is certainly the problem with too much copy and paste. I didn't find the opening post to be that long really just a short question and a short list of verses in bold type plus referrences. Maybe just forget the poster and answer each of the verses. Personally I see a lot of idol worship in Hinduism. I also see it in materialistic society in general in the form of worship of materialistic objects and pop stars and politicians. Even in Islam and Christianity there is fasle image worship. Just because some religion doesn't make a Deity to stand on an altar still they worship the ir own imagined conception of God conjured up in their minds. A false image (imagination) is an idol. Let me pose a question. Is it possible for one person to be engaged in idol worship while worshipping the Deity and the person standing next to him to be engaged in worshipping God by byworshipping the same Deity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazhar Posted March 13, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 I read all the posts and I am thankful t those who supported my question. My article was not long, it only hase verses and not my opinion (except some sentences), and what other people are posting is long articles which I may not fully understand. Regardless from where I took this page, I copy paste or not, where is my answer? I can say it in a rude manner but then it will not result in peace and I want peace, i do not want fight. I know that for a hindu, it s difficult to accept, he is worhsipping th idols for a long time and now somone says that is it allowed hearts him but my brothers, may peace be on you, this is the truth. May be you do not know it but it is what your scriptures say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted March 13, 2008 Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 Mazhar, There are good reasons behind real Deity worship. And it is also true that there is a lot of silly idol worship in Hinduism. And not just Hinduism but the trend is seen all over the world throughout history of people worshipping the products of their own hands. This was certainly true in the middle east in the times of the Bible and Koran. Golden calves and who knows what. You know the history better than I. God is not made of anything material. I am sure we agree on that. But here is the difference. For God there is no difference between matter and spirit because He is in full control of all His creation. As such he can reveal His presence anywhere at any time and through any medium such he did as a burning bush to Moses. Hare Krishna devotees know that God can not be made to appear before them simply by carving some wood into a particular shape and painting it a certain color. They make such a carving and then invited, beg and pray that the Lord makes His appearance there in that form to facilitate their serving Him. Because presently our eyes cannot see the Lord this allows the devotee to practice serving the Lord and by such practice until his heart becomes pure and the Lord becomes always visible to Him. This is a beginners stage. You may not need to worship in this way. It is not a requirement. Some worship the Lord directly in their own hearts. Some look to the sky. Some see God in the hearts of others and worship Him there. Some pray facing Mecca. Some perceive Him on their home or temple altars. It's all wonderful and correct because the Lord is omnipresent and is in all those places. A Psalm in the Old Testament by David gave a good revelation. David prayed that he didn't even worry about going to hell because "Thou art there." The point being there is no hell for us when we are aware of the presence of God. As God conscious people our battles are not with other God conscious people even though we may not fully understand or agree with their methods of worship. We must struggle against atheism & the Godless atheistic leaders of society that are dragging the world into a state of hell. We muct acknowlege our common ground as well as to recognize where we may differ on this theological point or another. I wish you peace Allah Akbar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazhar Posted March 13, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 Thanks brother thiest for the clarification. I aso want to discuss similarities. As Quran says that " come to common terms". So, I want to discuss ith you the similarities, first we should beleive and act what is common As regards differences, we will see them tomorrow. You said that God has no form, and that we cannot see him and that God has not made of materialstic thing, and you are right. What I understand from you is that Hindus need idols in their initial stages and then they do not need it. But brother if you analyse, God himself does not want us to worship the idols, as I wrote the article. Idol worship is prohibited in both Hinduism and Islam. I sincerely request my hindu brothers and sisters to analyse the verses and do not just stick to what you beleive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted March 13, 2008 Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 Jaiva Dharma by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura VAIDHI-BHAKTI IS NITYA NOT NAIMITTIKA Chapt. Five The following afternoon, everyone seated themselves in Paramahamsa Babaji’s bower, Devi Vidyaratna and Sambhu sat next to Lahiri Mahasaya. Just then, the Kazi from the village of Brahmana-Puskarini arrived. When the Vaisnavas saw him, they all stood up to offer him respect, and the Kazi also greeted the Vaisnavas with great pleasure and then sat in the assembly. Paramahamsa Babaji said, “You are blessed, for you are a descendant of Chand Kazi‚ who was an object of the mercy of Sri Mahaprabhu. Please kindly bestow your mercy upon us.” The Kazi said, “By the mercy of Sri Mahaprabhu, we have become the objects of mercy of the Vaisnavas. Gauranga is the Lord of our life. We do not do anything without first offering our dandavat-pranama to Him.” Lahiri Mahasaya was a learned scholar of the Farsi language, and he had studied the thirty sepharas of the Qur’an, and many books of the Sufis. He asked the Kazi, “According to your ideology, what is meant by mukti?” The Kazi replied, “What you refer to as the jiva, individual soul, we call ruh. This ruh is found in two conditions: ruh-mujarrad, the conscious or liberated soul; and ruh-tarkibi, the conditioned soul. What you refer to as spirit (cit) we call mujarrad, and what you refer to as matter (acit) we call jism. Mujarrad is beyond the limitations of time and space, whereas jism is subordinate to time and space. The ruh-tarkibi, or baddha-jiva, has a material mind and is full of ignorance (malphut) and desires. The ruh-mujarrad are pure and aloof from all these contaminations, and they reside in the spiritual abode, which is known as alam al-mashal. “The ruh becomes pure through the gradual development of ishqh or prema. There is no influence of jism, or matter, in that abodewhere Khoda (God) brought the prophet Paigambar Sahib. Yeteven there, the ruh remains as a servitor (banda), and the Lord isthe master. Therefore the relationship between the banda andKhoda is eternal, and mukti is actually the attainment of this relationshipin its pure form. The Qur’an and the literature of the Sufisexplain these conclusions, but not everyone can understand them.Gauranga Mahaprabhu mercifully taught Chand Kazi all thesepoints, and since that time we have become His unalloyed bhaktas.” Lahiri: What is the primary teaching of the Qur’an? Kazi: According to the Qur’an, the Lord’s personal abode, which is the highest attainment in the spiritual world, is known as behesht. It is a fact that there is no formal worship there, yet life itself is worship (ibada). The residents of that abode are immersed in transcendental bliss simply by seeing the Lord. This is the very same teaching that has been presented by Sri Gaurangadeva. Lahiri: Does the Qur’an accept that the Lord has a transcendental form? Kazi: The Qur’an states that the Lord has no form. But Sri Gaurangadeva told Chand Kazi that this teaching of the Qur’an means that the Lord cannot have a material form. It does not preclude the existence of His pure spiritual form. Paigambar Sahib saw the divine loving form of the Lord in accordance with his level of eligibility. The transcendental moods and sentiments that are characteristic of the other rasas remained hidden from him. Lahiri: What is the opinion of the Sufis in this regard? Kazi: They adhere to the doctrine of ana al-haqq, which means “I am Khoda.” The Sufi (aswaph) doctrine of Islam is exactly the same as the advaita-vada doctrine. Lahiri: Are you a Sufi? Kazi: No, we are unadulterated devotees. Gauranga is our very life. The discussion went on for a long time, and finally Kazi Sahib offered his respects to the Vaisnavas and departed. Hari-namasankirtana followed, after which the assembly dispersed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted March 13, 2008 Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 You said that God has no form, and that we cannot see him and that God has not made of materialstic thing, and you are right. No No. God has no material form. That means He has no form that is a product of creation. He does however have a spiritual form which is the source of all creation. He is not merely impersonal formless spiritual light. This is a very important distinction. We also have eternal spiritual forms. The spiritual world itself is spiritual form. This realization is the special revelation that the Lord is making known through the Hare Krsna movement today but it must be approached carefully to capture the subtlties of the philosophy. Also it must be understood that the Hare Krsishna movement is not a product of Hinduism despite some cultural links. It is a devotional movement that only recognizes the existence of One Supreme God. I also have some questions about the Kaaba stone if I may. What is it's origin and signifigance to Muslims? I am very curious about this as I have seen the pilgrims circumbamulatiing the stone with reverence but don't know why. Thank you brothersoul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
son_of_erin2000 Posted March 13, 2008 Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 good point to consider made by kulapavana. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
son_of_erin2000 Posted March 13, 2008 Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 but didnt god create this material world out of himself? and if so,every atom would be a part of god? god is with out form, but it is hard to focus on god as void. the murti is there to keep the devotee mindful of god. the devotee knows this is only a symbol of him, not everyone is at the same level of spiritual progress. for some advanced people, simply chanting Om is enough. but for those less advanced, the lord does allow himself to worshiped as haveing form,because that is a great help to those aspireing to reach him. it is his kindness to us,as he knows our limitations. so what is the problem with worshiping him in stone or wood. this is my understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
son_of_erin2000 Posted March 13, 2008 Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 Thanks brother thiest for the clarification. I aso want to discuss similarities. As Quran says that " come to common terms". So, I want to discuss ith you the similarities, first we should beleive and act what is common As regards differences, we will see them tomorrow. You said that God has no form, and that we cannot see him and that God has not made of materialstic thing, and you are right. What I understand from you is that Hindus need idols in their initial stages and then they do not need it. But brother if you analyse, God himself does not want us to worship the idols, as I wrote the article. Idol worship is prohibited in both Hinduism and Islam. I sincerely request my hindu brothers and sisters to analyse the verses and do not just stick to what you beleive. sounds like you are trying to win hearts and minds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazhar Posted March 13, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 Brother thiest, Kaaba is a qibla i.e. direction towards which muslims pray. If some one wants to pray, in which direction will he should pray? some wil say north, south, some will say east, and etc so Allah has decided that you will pray towards kaaba. So, we pray towards kaaba and not to kaaba. It is also for unity. And we circumcize it because it is the order of Allah. Circumcizing has lot of benefits..for example lacs of muslims go for hajj every year and circumsize the kaaba and it increases the unity and it shows that every one is equal...when we perform hajj, every performer wear same clothes so it removes every distinction..and teaches us that everyone is equal and no white is better than black, no rich is better than poor, no arabic is better than non-arabic and vice versa. You cannot recognize whether the person performing the hajj is beggar or king. So in Islam, Kaaba is just a direction to pray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harekrsnaharsha Posted March 13, 2008 Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 Infact Idol worship was done by Lord Rama himself and Krishna and Shiva who worshiped the Linga and taught his wife Rama stuti Sri Rama Rama Ramathi Rame Ramae monorame Shashasra nama tatulayam rama nama varanane no Hard feelings Infact black stone of Mecca called Kaba has a foot print of Datatrayea or Vishnu now as its been covered by the stone. First foot print is in Gaya and the second is in Mecca (This info is been given by a Muslim) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoveroftheBhagavata Posted March 13, 2008 Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 My friend Mazhar, "circumcize" refers to the ritualistic removal of the prepuce from male genital organs, a tradition which has been inherited in modern Judaism and Islam from ancient Egypt, and as such, predates the Abrahamic religions. You actually mean "circumambulate" to describe the Muslim practice of walking around the Kaaba in anti-clockwise fashion. We Hindus do the same thing in clockwise direction in temples, and we know it by the appellation parikrama. As for the idol issue, why don't you go ask Christians whether or not they pray to "idols" of Jesus? You probably know what kind of a reply you would be served with. Hindus have been worshipping murtis as representations of the Divine for aeons, and there are many, many relics which testify to this, dating to millenia before the beginning of the common era. A well-known example of such is the form of Lord Shiva as Pashupatinath (the Lord of all beings or souls) - that was discovered at Mohenjodaro and is thus as old as the Harappan civilisation. Moreover, you also have the "Vasishtha's head" metal statue which has been dated to approximately 3,700 BCE, and was found near Delhi. Then again there is the Raghunath temple at Devprayag in the Himalayas which according to vernacular tradition, was originally erected as far back as 10,000 years ago. These are just the tip of the iceberg, and I could cite dozens of other examples of physical representations of various forms of the Deity in South Asia dating to the earliest times. So all these people, over the course of several thousands of years, were just idiots who were comically ignorant of their own religious commandments and foolishly went about "idol worshipping", right? The Vedic literature is infinite, literally, and what remains of it in 2008 as written texts is just a mere fragment of the original, undivided Veda. Still, there is enough evidence in the surviving Sanskrit writings to very much support the notion of calling upon the eternal forms of God whether as Vishnu, Shiva or Shakti as well as the lesser Devas through murtis, and elaborate details as to how archana, or worship, should be performed to these murtis is also contained in these extensive literatures. Even the greatest of impersonalists, such as Buddhists, Jains, and Shankarites, resort to praying to statues. Your faith differs from ours and that's fine, but don't initiate pointless arguments that are not going to serve any purpose at the end of the day. Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanskruti Posted March 13, 2008 Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 Idol worship is prohibited in both Hinduism and Islam. I sincerely request my hindu brothers and sisters to analyse the verses and do not just stick to what you beleive. What you do not understand is that we are not worshipping the idol. We are worshipping what the idol represents. Like you who faces Kaaba as "just a direction to pray", some Hindus need to face a deity as a direction to pray. Both need to focus on something. Anyway, if god is everywhere, why would you need to face a particular spot? This is what I do not understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shivaduta Posted March 13, 2008 Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 Hinduism believes in some concepts... and i guess we must be doing things right... cause we still exist even when hundreds of religions and civilizations have come after hinduism and have vanished without leaving a trace... The typical non idol worship was a recent concept by the standards of hunduism... christ started the concept and the honourable prophet mohammed carried on from where christ left off.... in spite of christ's teachings we see the idols of christ being worshipped... and the prophet mohammed (peace be upon him) could visualise the concept of a formless god... incidently even this concept of nirakaar ishwar isnt a new one to hindu philosophy and has existed for many millenia... but how many common people can comprehend the concept of a formless god... so then they put up the name of god on a plate and worship it or some other form of proxy god worship... like worshipping a direction... why worship one direction when god this formless god exists everywhere... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shivaduta Posted March 13, 2008 Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 Circumcizing has lot of benefits..for example lacs of muslims go for hajj every year and circumsize the kaaba Respected comerade mazar please be clear of the concepts and the words u use... as per my understanding ciscumsizing is the ceremony of "Suntah" where a part of the foreskin is cut off.. so u can not do circumsision of the kaaba... What incidently brother muslims do is calld i believe the circumambulation of the kaaba ... which is walking around the kaaba jointly and this concept has been there in pradakshina in hindu temples for thousands of years before islam came into existance... so nothing new here even today u go to any old temple and u will see people doing pradakshina in groups... "circumambulation not circumcision" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoveroftheBhagavata Posted March 13, 2008 Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 That's what I said to him in my post, Shivaduta. Now what if we presented to him the well-documented evidence that Arabia was a large centre of Shiva worship in the distant past, and that the Kaaba is in fact a broken Linga? How about that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shivaduta Posted March 13, 2008 Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 i wouldnt know that ... but will accept your words... what i like is hunduism isnt limited to any one form of worship... u can sit under a tree and pray to a formless god like mohammed did or you can sit and make an idol and pray to it... u can pray to your own ancesstors u can pray to the nature and its aspects which grant you life... u can pray to the fire the wind the air and the sea... u can pray to abstractions like parabrahma and shunya u can even do yoni puja which is a tantrik form of worshipping the female sexual organ you can pray to the bhutas and pretas and pischaychas you can pray to the rakshas the yakshas and other demonic and semi demonic forms... there is no limit to what u can worship in hinduism and i am proud that my religion doesnt limit my options of what i can worship and how... be proud that our religion accepts that we are humans who have the intelect to decide which way we wish to pray ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoveroftheBhagavata Posted March 13, 2008 Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 i wouldnt know that ... but will accept your words... what i like is hunduism isnt limited to any one form of worship... u can sit under a tree and pray to a formless god like mohammed did or you can sit and make an idol and pray to it... u can pray to your own ancesstors u can pray to the nature and its aspects which grant you life... u can pray to the fire the wind the air and the sea... u can pray to abstractions like parabrahma and shunya u can even do yoni puja which is a tantrik form of worshipping the female sexual organ you can pray to the bhutas and pretas and pischaychas you can pray to the rakshas the yakshas and other demonic and semi demonic forms... there is no limit to what u can worship in hinduism and i am proud that my religion doesnt limit my options of what i can worship and how... be proud that our religion accepts that we are humans who have the intelect to decide which way we wish to pray ... Yes, we are indeed fortunate to have accumulated sufficient punya to take birth in Bharata's dharmika samskriti. I totally concur with you on this and as it has been said, the length, breadth and depth of our religion is unfathomable indeed. The phenomenal diversity one sees in Indic tradition is what makes it so beautiful and strong. From Shaivism, Shaktism, Vaishnavism, and Smartism down to Tantra Yoga in all of its myriad manifestations without forgetting Buddhism and Jainism, India is not termed Deva-bhumi or Arya-varta (the land of the cultured and noble) for no good reason. In spite of the abject decadence that the land has no doubt witnessed in the last couple of millenia, who can deny the spiritual potency that still persists in our Motherland for those who really hanker for it? The astronomical sums of money that Western Vaishnava missions spend each year for conducting their annual parikramas of Vraja, Navadvipa, Nilachala and other tirthas certainly attest to that. Aum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazhar Posted March 13, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 What you do not understand is that we are not worshipping the idol. We are worshipping what the idol represents. Like you who faces Kaaba as "just a direction to pray", some Hindus need to face a deity as a direction to pray. Both need to focus on something. Anyway, if god is everywhere, why would you need to face a particular spot? This is what I do not understand. Good question brother! We pray to Allah (Salaah) in Mosque. In mosque we pray together. So if no diection is specified, some one will say, lets pay towards east, some one wil say, towards west and etc. And for the sake of argument, if a mosque chooses a direction, then there will be lot of different directions each mosque will be choosing. So, for unity, a direction has been specified to pray towards it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted March 13, 2008 Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 http://www.salagram.net/kaba-stone.html#Introduction comparing the Black Stone (Al-Hajarul Aswad) with the Hindu tradition one more time: Kaaba is considered by the Muslims to be the "House of Allah", not merely an arbitrarily chosen direction. It was originally built by Abraham and Ishmael, the progenitor of the Arab people. They were the ones who placed Al-Hajarul Aswad given to them by archangel Gabriel in Kaaba. Al-Hajarul Aswad is sometimes called by Muslims "the right hand of God in earth". Thus the Black Stone is not an idol but a divine manifestation of Gods's presence in this world, just like Lord Vishnu's murtis in the temple, or salagrama sila stones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazhar Posted March 13, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 Respected comerade mazar please be clear of the concepts and the words u use... as per my understanding ciscumsizing is the ceremony of "Suntah" where a part of the foreskin is cut off.. so u can not do circumsision of the kaaba... What incidently brother muslims do is calld i believe the circumambulation of the kaaba ... which is walking around the kaaba jointly and this concept has been there in pradakshina in hindu temples for thousands of years before islam came into existance... so nothing new here even today u go to any old temple and u will see people doing pradakshina in groups... "circumambulation not circumcision" Oh, yes, thanks for correction, it is circumambulation not circumcizing.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoveroftheBhagavata Posted March 13, 2008 Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 Good question brother! We pray to Allah (Salaah) in Mosque. In mosque we pray together. So if no diection is specified, some one will say, lets pay towards east, some one wil say, towards west and etc. And for the sake of argument, if a mosque chooses a direction, then there will be lot of different directions each mosque will be choosing. So, for unity, a direction has been specified to pray towards it. The basic point remains the same, but you lack the wherewithal to adequately defend your viewpoint, hence this fall-back on another version of the same fundamental concept that we would utilise to justify murti-puja, not idol worship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoveroftheBhagavata Posted March 13, 2008 Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 one more time: Kaaba is considered by the Muslims to be the "House of Allah", not merely an arbitrarily chosen direction. It was originally built by Abraham and Ishmael, the progenitor of the Arab people. They were the ones who placed Al-Hajarul Aswad given to them by archangel Gabriel in Kaaba. Al-Hajarul Aswad is sometimes called by Muslims "the right hand of God in earth". Thus the Black Stone is not an idol but a divine manifestation of Gods's presence in this world, just like Lord Vishnu's murtis in the temple, or salagrama sila stones. This is of course, the Islamic version of the story. Much documentation has been carried out on the question of the Vedic past of Arabia, and if you were to study the evidence and analyse the points presented by the (admittedly) Vedic-centric researchers, you would find much of it pretty compelling. There is strong circumstantial proof of the Kaaba being what remains of a Lingam that was worshipped in the Middle East long ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazhar Posted March 13, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 comparing the Black Stone (Al-Hajarul Aswad) with the Hindu tradition one more time: Kaaba is considered by the Muslims to be the "House of Allah", not merely an arbitrarily chosen direction. It was originally built by Abraham and Ishmael, the progenitor of the Arab people. They were the ones who placed Al-Hajarul Aswad given to them by archangel Gabriel in Kaaba. Al-Hajarul Aswad is sometimes called by Muslims "the right hand of God in earth". Thus the Black Stone is not an idol but a divine manifestation of Gods's presence in this world, just like Lord Vishnu's murtis in the temple, or salagrama sila stones. Yes, kaaba is the house of Allah, but not in the sense that Allah lives here or it does not mean that we worship kaaba. As regards Hajra-e-Aswad, neither is it right hand of Allah nor it is sign of presence of Allah. You saying that is unauthentic. I do not know any verse of Quran or any saying of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) saying that. So it is wrong. Infact Hazrat Umar (pbuh) said that "This stone can neither benefit me nor can harm me, but I am kissing it only because prophet Muhammad (pbuh) kissed it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoveroftheBhagavata Posted March 13, 2008 Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 As regards Hajra-e-Aswad, neither is it right hand of Allah nor it is sign of presence of Allah. You saying that is unauthentic. I do not know any verse of Quran or any saying of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) saying that. So it is wrong. Infact Hazrat Umar (pbuh) said that "This stone can neither benefit me nor can harm me, but I am kissing it only because prophet Muhammad (pbuh) kissed it." How can you follow a tradition the meaning of which you are not able to properly grasp? What is this if not blind following? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts