Is idol worship allowed in Hinduism?

[Mazhar]

 

The basic point remains the same, but you lack the wherewithal to adequately defend your viewpoint, hence this fall-back on another version of the same fundamental concept that we would utilise to justify murti-puja, not idol worship.

 

Are you trying to say that we worship kaaba, please tell me exactly what are you trying to say? Ask clearly.

[LoveroftheBhagavata]

Is my English too advanced for you? Your defence of Muslims needing the Kaaba to orient themselves for namaaz is simply the Hindu position regarding praying to murtis put differently. It's just regrettable that you cannot see it this way. In any case, you can think whatever you wish to. I'm not here to convince you of anything.

[LoveroftheBhagavata]

I was not asking you anything by the way, just putting forward an argument.

[Mazhar]

Now here is clear explanation:

 

We muslims face towards the kaaba because it is the order of Allah in Quran. Kaaba is our direction to pray to Allah and thats it. We do not worship kaaba nor we worship Allah through kaaba. The best proof is that we do not see kaaba when we are praying. When we offer Salaah, our eyes are at the place where we prostrate and not on kaaba. We do not need the picture of kaaba to worship Allah. We do not remember Allah through kaaba.

 

In short, we do not worship kaaba nor we worship Allah through kaaba. It is just a direction and we muslims did not select it with our own choice, but Allah ordered us in the Quran to face the kaaba.

 

I hope it is clear now.

[Shivaduta]

 

So if no diection is specified, some one will say, lets pay towards east, some one wil say, towards west and etc. And for the sake of argument, if a mosque chooses a direction, then there will be lot of different directions each mosque will be choosing. So, for unity, a direction has been specified to pray towards it.

 

Well why does a religion not give its followers the right to choose even a simple thing like which direction he should pray.... religions should not assume that humans are cattle without intelligence... which direction one may like another may not... so why this requirement that everyone MUST pray in this direction... what wrong will happen if two people pray to the same god in two different directions... i dont think god will get any smaller

[Shivaduta]

 

We muslims face towards the kaaba because it is the order of Allah in Quran. Kaaba is our direction to pray to Allah and thats it. We do not worship kaaba nor we worship Allah through kaaba.

 

 

Does this mean that myslims are incapable of visualising a omnipotent formless allah through anything other then kaaba...

 

i can sit in whichever way and look at any plant or tree or stone and wonder at the same omnipotent formless god and wonder at his creation.... dont tell me you arent able to do something so simple... and if someone told me why i have to look at one stone and imagine god only through that stone i would want to know why cant i imagine god through any other stone... after all i am a intelligent human being... and any intelligent human has and asks questions... hope u will too

[Kulapavana]

 

In short, we do not worship kaaba nor we worship Allah through kaaba. It is just a direction and we muslims did not select it with our own choice, but Allah ordered us in the Quran to face the kaaba.

 

I hope it is clear now.

 

And in the same way God ordered us to worship Him in His murti forms in the temples, as well as in the salagrama-sila stones from the Gandhaki River. You should follow God's order given to you in your scripture and do not concern yourself with the orders God has given to the Hindus.

 

I hope it is clear now.

[LoveroftheBhagavata]

 

Now here is clear explanation:

 

We muslims face towards the kaaba because it is the order of Allah in Quran. Kaaba is our direction to pray to Allah and thats it. We do not worship kaaba nor we worship Allah through kaaba. The best proof is that we do not see kaaba when we are praying. When we offer Salaah, our eyes are at the place where we prostrate and not on kaaba. We do not need the picture of kaaba to worship Allah. We do not remember Allah through kaaba.

 

In short, we do not worship kaaba nor we worship Allah through kaaba. It is just a direction and we muslims did not select it with our own choice, but Allah ordered us in the Quran to face the kaaba.

 

I hope it is clear now.

 

 

It was never my contention that you worship Kaaba to start with. But you do utilise it, in all evidence without a clear comprehension of its purpose in your religion, and this is plain from the reasons that you note above. I repeat that, by parity of reasoning, you should afford other religions the right to their symbolisms in the same way that you have yours. And trust me buddy, the explanations that knowledgeable Hindus would propose as means of justifying praying to statues are way deeper that what you've typed on this thread. What I wrote was an analogy which, I maintain, is not dissimilar or totally unconnected to your defence of why you turn towards the Kaaba, for whatever reason that may be. As I said, it's a pity that you lack the intellectual integrity required to make this association. Anyways, to each his own, and NO Hindu of any denomination whatsoever shall cease the performance of murti-puja because of what Islam makes of it.

[Shivaduta]

 

Allah ordered us in the Quran to face the kaaba.

 

 

 

As per my information Allah Spoke to the holy Prophet mohammed... prophet mohammed narrated his learnings to the masses through his teachings and only after the passing away of the holy prophet were the writings jotted down on paper...

the prophet Mohammed could have got his teachings written down but he didnt do so maybe intentionally...

"Not long after the Prophet's death (632), his successor Abu Bakr, the first Caliph of Islam, asked Muhammad's former head scribe, Zaid Ibn Thâbit, to make a copy. this he did"

 

So technically the quran is minimum a third person account of what mohammed had heard and narrated to his followers... when i say something to a friend and he tells it to another i can visualise the kinds of discrepencies which creep in...

[LoveroftheBhagavata]

 

And in the same way God ordered us to worship Him in His murti forms in the temples, as well as in the salagrama-sila stones from the Gandhaki River. You should follow God's order given to you in your scripture and do not concern yourself with the orders God has given to the Hindus.

 

Way to go, Kulapavana Prabhu.

 

Nitai Gaura Haribol!

[bhaktajan]

 

No No. God has no material form. That means He has no form that is a product of creation. He does however have a spiritual form which is the source of all creation. He is not merely impersonal formless spiritual light. This is a very important distinction. We also have eternal spiritual forms. The spiritual world itself is spiritual form. This realization is the special revelation that the Lord is making known through the Hare Krsna movement today but it must be approached carefully to capture the subtlties of the philosophy.

 

Also it must be understood that the Hare Krsishna movement is not a product of Hinduism despite some cultural links. It is a devotional movement that only recognizes the existence of One Supreme God.

 

I also have some questions about the Kaaba stone if I may. What is it's origin and signifigance to Muslims? I am very curious about this as I have seen the pilgrims circumbamulatiing the stone with reverence but don't know why.

 

Thank you brothersoul

.............................................................................................

 

The absolute opposite of the beauty of Bonefide Vaisnava Temple Diety Worship is a dead body.

As for example, a head stone with an image of the departed on the Granite stone grave marker etc.

 

.............................................................................................

 

Originally Posted by son_of_erin2000

 

but didnt god create this material world out of himself?

and if so,every atom would be a part of god?

god is with out form, but it is hard to focus on god as void.

the murti is there to keep the devotee mindful of god. the devotee knows this is only a symbol of

him, not everyone is at the same level of spiritual progress.

for some advanced people, simply chanting

but for those less advanced, the lord does allow himself to worshiped as haveing form,because

that is a great help to those aspireing to reach him.

it is his kindness to us,as he knows our limitations.

so what is the problem with worshiping him in stone or wood. this is my understanding.

.............................................................................................

 

The Deity is for the beginning neophyte and simple-common person to meditate/see a form that is defined in scripture as the form of the personage of Godhead incarnate and as He is in his original-original form.

 

The Deity in the Temple is the "Dharma & Purpose & Main use of a Temple" since antiquity as it was originally imparted and now passed-down to the present time.

 

Western history (all through and since the days of Buddhist, Judeo-Christian, & Mohamedian influences) was never to perform Deity Worship because: The Murti sadhartha was, is, and will be as per Brahminical Law and order.

 

[What I fear is that foreign influence has found inspiration from the lilas of smriti's heroic figures.]

 

best wellwishes,

Bhaktajan

 

[Ganeshprasad]

Salam

 

 

Now here is clear explanation:

 

We muslims face towards the kaaba because it is the order of Allah in Quran.

 

I hope it is clear now.

 

Lord Krishna Says

 

Thus the knowledge that is more secret than the secret has been explained to you by Me. After fully reflecting on this, do as you wish. (18.63)

 

This is the different between you and me, I have a choice where you my friend, are bound by the laws of Islam and no scope to think for your self.

Difference here is I choose to worship god as I see fit out of my free will so tell me why it should bother you.

 

I thank you for your concern for us Kafir, who according to you are ignorant of their own scriptures, how can this simple fact that you have kindly quoted so easily be missed by those great scholars of Vedas, I wonder! You must think all those pundits must be naive to have accepted murti puja when you can with click of a finger prove us all wrong.

Do you really accept the authority of Vedas? If No, then there is no meaningful discussion to be had, as no amount verses we might put forward will make a blind bit of difference.

Lord Krishna says to us

Whosoever offers Me a leaf, a flower, a fruit, or water with devotion; I accept and eat the offering of devotion by the pure-hearted. (9.26)

 

O Arjuna, whatever you do, whatever you eat, whatever you offer as oblation to the sacred fire, whatever charity you give, whatever austerity you perform, do all that as an offering unto Me. (See also 12.10, 18.46) (9.27)

 

 

We may do this offering in our mind or we may choose to do this in our alter what to speak of at mandir where a proper Vedic principal is followed and a pran prathistha is performed, so the murti is now non different from the supreme lord.

 

Since you have come here to enlighten us all here, please clear one thing for me, you guys yearn for peace and that is how you greet each other in Islam yet all your actions are opposite at least that is how things are perceived in this increasingly dangerous world.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

[Redsox]

[moderator's note: post removed]<!-- 102: --><!--webbot bot="Include" i-checksum="9575" endspan --><!--webbot bot="Include" U-Include="../104/cr.html" TAG="BODY" startspan -->

[Mazhar]

 

As per my information Allah Spoke to the holy Prophet mohammed... prophet mohammed narrated his learnings to the masses through his teachings and only after the passing away of the holy prophet were the writings jotted down on paper...

the prophet Mohammed could have got his teachings written down but he didnt do so maybe intentionally...

"Not long after the Prophet's death (632), his successor Abu Bakr, the first Caliph of Islam, asked Muhammad's former head scribe, Zaid Ibn Thâbit, to make a copy. this he did"

 

So technically the quran is minimum a third person account of what mohammed had heard and narrated to his followers... when i say something to a friend and he tells it to another i can visualise the kinds of discrepencies which creep in...

 

The quran was ordered and was written down completely at the time of prophet muhammad (pbuh). abu bakr (pbuh) and other followers of prophet muhammad (pbuh) compile the quran into a book. Previously, the verses were written but was not compiled. So quran is in his original form and will always be as Allah promises in Quran for its protection.

[Mazhar]

 

Salam

 

 

 

Lord Krishna Says

 

Thus the knowledge that is more secret than the secret has been explained to you by Me. After fully reflecting on this, do as you wish. (18.63)

 

This is the different between you and me, I have a choice where you my friend, are bound by the laws of Islam and no scope to think for your self.

Difference here is I choose to worship god as I see fit out of my free will so tell me why it should bother you.

 

Brother I am a Muslim and Muslim means a person who submits his will to God. So I will do what my Allah told me to do. We human beings are created by Allah and we are imperfect but Allah is perfect, he does not need anyone, but we need him. so you saying that I will worship God as I see fit is unacceptable and no hindu will agree with you if he is a good hindu.

[Mazhar]

 

Well why does a religion not give its followers the right to choose even a simple thing like which direction he should pray.... religions should not assume that humans are cattle without intelligence... which direction one may like another may not... so why this requirement that everyone MUST pray in this direction... what wrong will happen if two people pray to the same god in two different directions... i dont think god will get any smaller

 

Brother, if everyone will choose his own direction then where is the unity? Islam is the religion of peace. When we offer salaah, we stand shoulder to shoulder so that we love each other, and we can stand like that when we have same direction.

 

Other thing is that we only face towards kaaba for salaah i.e. namaaz and if you want to ask something from Allah or pray to him, here pray means to ask for something, then you can do it in any direction.

[Mazhar]

 

Does this mean that myslims are incapable of visualising a omnipotent formless allah through anything other then kaaba...

 

i can sit in whichever way and look at any plant or tree or stone and wonder at the same omnipotent formless god and wonder at his creation.... dont tell me you arent able to do something so simple... and if someone told me why i have to look at one stone and imagine god only through that stone i would want to know why cant i imagine god through any other stone... after all i am a intelligent human being... and any intelligent human has and asks questions... hope u will too

 

I think brother you need to know the concept of God in Islam. In short, we muslims worship Allah directly. we do not need any idol, or any stone or anything to worship Him. We see His creation, we see the sun, moon, sky, ourselves and the whole universe and they are all the signs of Allah, not the symbol of Allah. We worship the creator not created.

[Mazhar]

 

And in the same way God ordered us to worship Him in His murti forms in the temples, as well as in the salagrama-sila stones from the Gandhaki River. You should follow God's order given to you in your scripture and do not concern yourself with the orders God has given to the Hindus.

 

I hope it is clear now.

 

Can you quote me some verses in which God orders you to worship him in the murti forms?

[Mazhar]

 

It was never my contention that you worship Kaaba to start with. But you do utilise it, in all evidence without a clear comprehension of its purpose in your religion, and this is plain from the reasons that you note above. I repeat that, by parity of reasoning, you should afford other religions the right to their symbolisms in the same way that you have yours. And trust me buddy, the explanations that knowledgeable Hindus would propose as means of justifying praying to statues are way deeper that what you've typed on this thread. What I wrote was an analogy which, I maintain, is not dissimilar or totally unconnected to your defence of why you turn towards the Kaaba, for whatever reason that may be. As I said, it's a pity that you lack the intellectual integrity required to make this association. Anyways, to each his own, and NO Hindu of any denomination whatsoever shall cease the performance of murti-puja because of what Islam makes of it.

 

In Islam there is no symbol of Allah, there are signs or indications of Allah.

[theist]

 

Brother thiest, Kaaba is a qibla i.e. direction towards which muslims pray. If some one wants to pray, in which direction will he should pray? some wil say north, south, some will say east, and etc so Allah has decided that you will pray towards kaaba. So, we pray towards kaaba and not to kaaba. It is also for unity. And we circumcize it because it is the order of Allah. Circumcizing has lot of benefits..for example lacs of muslims go for hajj every year and circumsize the kaaba and it increases the unity and it shows that every one is equal...when we perform hajj, every performer wear same clothes so it removes every distinction..and teaches us that everyone is equal and no white is better than black, no rich is better than poor, no arabic is better than non-arabic and vice versa. You cannot recognize whether the person performing the hajj is beggar or king.

 

So in Islam, Kaaba is just a direction to pray.

 

I see. Yes we need to be reminded of our equal status in the eyes of God. That is a very good practice.

Another question Mazhar if I may. I live in America by a major university. Although we have relatively few muslims living in the US here in Berkeley there are quite a few. I see them sometimes carrying a form of prayer beads which they finger as they walk. This is a similar practice to mine. I use beads to chant God's names on, specifically Hare Krishna Hare Rama. I am curious if you also chant the names of God on your beads. Undoubtly different names of God like Allah of course, but the same God surely (as there is only One), or do Muslims have a certain prayer which they repeat.

 

Thanks

 

Oh I wanted to mention that here at Audarya there are differing views held on such questions as you posed so not everyone will agree with what I say nor will I agree with what they say 100%.

[Sanskruti]

 

Can you quote me some verses in which God orders you to worship him in the murti forms?

I know you asked your question to Kulapavana but I found a verse.

 

"I make no distinction between one religion and another. People may worship me in any form they wish. The form of worship does not matter to me; my only concern is the quality of love which is expressed in worship. I accept every kind of worship, because I am supreme."

 

 

Gita 9.20-24

 

[Sangam]

Yes Mr mazhar, two types amongst the Hindus in India thosw how worship the idol as Thathuvam (Symbolic Forms) and not as real and another who worship them as real.....under deut 28 64 Curse Scattered Judah Tribe had to go to Land to worship wood and stone,but they couldnt worship any creature So they made `thathuvams' (philosophical forms) as god, by putting people as god who were never known in this world: with five legs, four heads, thousand heads they made like this and made thathuvams'. They had four heads. Like that there is nobody in the whole world. So God cannot blame them as idol worshippers, because they are worshipping something that is not in this world and not created by anybody. He said you should not worship creatures. So, even though God brought this as a curse, the only way of getting out of the curse was to worship something which is no existing as creation. They took their punishment, but never wanted to give up their God. So, in wood and stone they formed their own God. So among the Hindus there are two groups of people. Same image they'll worship; one as thathuvam and one as real. Those who worship the thathuvam they are the real Judah. And what did God say? Where did He promise to return? He said I'll return.When you are doing this.Deutronomy 30:1-3: Where the King would come which is only in the EAST (dravida desham) as a Black Man..Krishna means Black,even Kabba being Black,represents Form of Allah..So Now is Time to stop going to Mosques and being under Religous Leaders(so called scholars-big brains) which the LORD considers as Spirtual Adultery and Learn Directly from Our Crerator Allah!

[Kulapavana]

 

Can you quote me some verses in which God orders you to worship him in the murti forms?

 

Try this one:

SB 3.29.16: The devotee should regularly see My statues in the temple, touch My lotus feet and offer worshipable paraphernalia and prayer. He should see in the spirit of renunciation, from the mode of goodness, and see every living entity as spiritual.

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam

 

 

Brother I am a Muslim and Muslim means a person who submits his will to God. So I will do what my Allah told me to do.

 

Good for you, I respect your worship but learn to afford the same to others who may not have your faith.

 

As I said lord Krishna does not compel us to do his will because in bhakti it is love that is paramount.

 

 

We human beings are created by Allah and we are imperfect but Allah is perfect, he does not need anyone, but we need him.

 

Vedas describe the creation as in perfect harmony because every thing that emanates from God is perfect, so your assertion that God created imperfect being is an insult, it is another matter that we choose to rebel in his creation and cause havoc.

 

 

so you saying that I will worship God as I see fit is unacceptable and no hindu will agree with you if he is a good hindu.

 

So you know what is good Hindu please enlighten us.

 

There absolutely very little you know off Hindu apart from that we worship idols (that’s your misconception) or we apparently worship many gods again a misconception.

 

As a Hindu I would not force my views on anyone because how can there be a proper worship if there is no love born out of free will. If god needed a robot he could easily produce one and a perfect one to that.

 

If you desire peace then one has to become peaceful first.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

[Guest]

I totally agree.