Is idol worship allowed in Hinduism?

[Kulapavana]

Originally Posted by Mazhar

Brother I am a Muslim and Muslim means a person who submits his will to God. So I will do what my Allah told me to do.

--------------------

 

Why do you feel compelled to go out of your way to convert Hindus? Does Allah tell you to try to convert people who worship God differently then Muslims do? What is it to you that Hindus might be worshipping idols?

 

Usually people like you turn out to be crusaders. Do you like crusaders when they come to your land? Your interest in Hindu dharma is not genuine. You quote one of the big modern Muslim crusaders to start this thread. Who do you think you are fooling with that act?

 

Maybe you do not worship Kaaba or the Black Stone as the "right hand of Allah on earth, but millions of other Muslims do. You should focus your preaching zeal on them. For us Hindus worshipping God in the temple Deity is a way of life based on our scriptures and tradition. Leave us alone.

 

Go home crusader.

[theist]

 

Go home crusader.

 

 

Feel free to continue in the conversation Mazhar. It is in this way that a more mature understanding of each other can emerge and that can only foster tolerance.

[son_of_erin2000]

 

Am I wrong? We are not worshiping the idol but what it represents?

 

you are right,

[bhaktajan]

 

[moderator's note: post removed]<!-- 102: --><!--webbot bot="Include" i-checksum="9575" endspan --><!--webbot bot="Include" U-Include="../104/cr.html" TAG="BODY" startspan -->

 

Let us be kinder and gentler to our sincere friend and wellwisher and remember the injunction to get them to do some bhakti before moving on with the caravan.

 

Wishing well with all my strength,

Bhaktajan

..................................................................................................

 

 

 

Bhagavad-gita 3.26

 

 

 

 

na buddhi-bhedam janayed ajnanam karma-sanginam

 

josayet sarva-karmani vidvan yuktah samacaran

SYNONYMS

 

 

 

 

 

na—not; buddhi-bhedam—disruption of intelligence; janayet—he should cause; ajnanam—of the foolish; karma-sanginam—who are attached to fruitive work; josayet—he should dovetail; sarva—all; karmani—work; vidvan—a learned person; yuktah—engaged; samacaran—practicing.

 

 

 

TRANSLATION

 

 

"So as not to disrupt the minds of ignorant men attached to the fruitive results of prescribed duties, a learned person should not induce them to stop work.

Rather, by working in the spirit of devotion, he should engage them in all sorts of activities [for the gradual development of

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

PURPORT

 

 

 

 

 

Vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyah. That is the end of all Vedic rituals.

All rituals, all performances of sacrifices, and everything that is put into the Vedas, including all direction for material activities, are meant for understanding <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comKrishna</st1:place> consciousness]." /><st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>, who is the ultimate goal of life.

But because the conditioned souls do not know anything beyond sense gratification, they study the Vedas to that end.

But through fruitive activities and sense gratification regulated by the Vedic rituals one is gradually elevated to <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> consciousness.

Therefore a realized soul in Krishna consciousness should not disturb others in their activities or understanding, but he should act by showing how the results of all work can be dedicated to the service of <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place>.

The learned <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> conscious person may act in such a way that the ignorant person working for sense gratification may learn how to act and how to behave. . . . Although the ignorant man is not to be disturbed in his activities, . . . by direct <st1:place w:st="on">Krishna</st1:place> consciousness one can have all the results one would otherwise derive from following one’s prescribed duties.

 

[Ganeshprasad]

Pranam

Kulapavana Prabhu ji is perfect in his assumption of this crusader, his intentions are anything but respect for Hindus and in particular the murti puja.

It would be too much for a musalman to accept and respect others mode of practice. To them we are kaafir so a fair game.

I ask him kindly to respect all and sundry, sure let us build bridges and tolerance.

But as we say one can not clap with one hand. Let him make his intension clear.

Jai Shree Krishna

[lokeshvara]

Blessings,

 

in response to the original poster, just as you have quoted scripture that would lead one to believe murti devotion is forbidden there is also plenty of other sacred texts allowing it. i think what you fail to realize is that there is no one over arching hinduism that is often envisioned by others. hinduism is so vast that it allows for theists, agnostics, pantheists, monists, and even atheists (and welcomes those of us sitting on the fence ) all of these groups have scriptures, teachers and traditions of their own. it would not be fruitful to take a text not directly pertaining to bhakti and apply it to bhakti practice.

 

Islam is more concentrated as there are only two main branches suni and shi'a then the category of sufis which is made of both suni and shi'a. hinduism is made of many more different types of groups. More so Islam generally looks to the Quran and Haddiths for religious and daily life instruction. There are for Hindus the Vedas and Upanishads along with the Puranas and epic poems (Mahabharata and Ramayana) so there's a great deal more diversity in scripture.

 

i don't know if this helps at all but my two cents

 

peace.

[theist]

 

 

All sarcasm aside, the thing that is amazing to me is how can anyone love a terrifying God like Allah.

 

 

 

The really amazing thing is why an admitted atheist like Redsox is so involved in a conversation about God. You are one that is out of place.

[Redsox]

 

The really amazing thing is why an admitted atheist like Redsox is so involved in a conversation about God. You are one that is out of place.

 

This conversation is about God? Or is it about who is right? LOL I love making fun of the ignorance that is so prevailing everywhere . Besides , old habits die hard. Don't worry theist, I will leave in a week or two.

[new---new]

 

 

 

Hare krishna hare krishna krishna krishna hare hare

hare ram hare ram ram ram hare hare

 

 

[Mazhar]

 

I see. Yes we need to be reminded of our equal status in the eyes of God. That is a very good practice.

Another question Mazhar if I may. I live in America by a major university. Although we have relatively few muslims living in the US here in Berkeley there are quite a few. I see them sometimes carrying a form of prayer beads which they finger as they walk. This is a similar practice to mine. I use beads to chant God's names on, specifically Hare Krishna Hare Rama. I am curious if you also chant the names of God on your beads. Undoubtly different names of God like Allah of course, but the same God surely (as there is only One), or do Muslims have a certain prayer which they repeat.

 

 

 

There are any choices what to repeat and pray on beads like we may call 1 of 99 names of Allah or we may pray for prophet muhammad (pbuh) (which is called Durood in Islam) or we may recite any verse of Quran, etc.

[Mazhar]

 

I know you asked your question to Kulapavana but I found a verse.

 

"I make no distinction between one religion and another. People may worship me in any form they wish. The form of worship does not matter to me; my only concern is the quality of love which is expressed in worship. I accept every kind of worship, because I am supreme."

 

 

Gita 9.20-24

 

 

But vedas are more superior among hindu scriptures. And Yadurveda says:

"They enter darkness, those who worship the natural elements" (Air, Water, Fire, etc.). "They sink deeper in darkness, those who worship sambhuti (means created things, for example table, chair, idol, etc.)."

 

 

[Yajurveda 40:9]

 

[Mazhar]

 

Pranam

 

 

Vedas describe the creation as in perfect harmony because every thing that emanates from God is perfect, so your assertion that God created imperfect being is an insult, it is another matter that we choose to rebel in his creation and cause havoc.

 

 

 

It is not insult to God, God made us with some deficiencies, if He wanted to , He could make us perfect. Imperfect means that we fal ill, we got older and older every day, we get tired, etc. Sometimes we have some diseases. Allah made us like that because Allah wants to test us, this lie is test for the hereafter.

 

 

Pranam

There absolutely very little you know off Hindu apart from that we worship idols (that’s your misconception) or we apparently worship many gods again a misconception.

 

 

If I have a misconception then remove it.

 

I am peaceful.

 

[Mazhar]

 

Originally Posted by Mazhar

Brother I am a Muslim and Muslim means a person who submits his will to God. So I will do what my Allah told me to do.

--------------------

 

Why do you feel compelled to go out of your way to convert Hindus? Does Allah tell you to try to convert people who worship God differently then Muslims do? What is it to you that Hindus might be worshipping idols?

 

Usually people like you turn out to be crusaders. Do you like crusaders when they come to your land? Your interest in Hindu dharma is not genuine. You quote one of the big modern Muslim crusaders to start this thread. Who do you think you are fooling with that act?

 

Maybe you do not worship Kaaba or the Black Stone as the "right hand of Allah on earth, but millions of other Muslims do. You should focus your preaching zeal on them. For us Hindus worshipping God in the temple Deity is a way of life based on our scriptures and tradition. Leave us alone.

 

Go home crusader.

 

Brother, I am not compelling any hindu to beleive what i say. I am telling you the verses of your own books. I am not giving my own opinion. I am translating your books If you think I am wrong then correct me brother. I am here for a peaceful dicussion.

[Mazhar]

 

Pranam

Kulapavana Prabhu ji is perfect in his assumption of this crusader, his intentions are anything but respect for Hindus and in particular the murti puja.

It would be too much for a musalman to accept and respect others mode of practice. To them we are kaafir so a fair game.

I ask him kindly to respect all and sundry, sure let us build bridges and tolerance.

But as we say one can not clap with one hand. Let him make his intension clear.

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Brother, Kaafir means a person who does not beleive in Islam i.e. non muslim. So Kaafir and non-muslim have same meaning. Do u mind if i call u a non-muslim? offcourse, no. My intention is not to heart any one.

[LoveroftheBhagavata]

 

But vedas are more superior among hindu scriptures. And Yadurveda says:

"They enter darkness, those who worship the natural elements" (Air, Water, Fire, etc.). "They sink deeper in darkness, those who worship sambhuti (means created things, for example table, chair, idol, etc.)."

 

 

 

[Yajurveda 40:9]

 

And where did you get this translation from? The Vedas and other Shruti texts are often written in cryptic language which is next to impossible to decipher for the ordinary people. For this reason, the part of Veda known as Smriti exists, for it brings out the real meaning of Shruti, for the spiritual benefit of the masses. This is Vedic dharma, and no cow-eater such as yourself can ever be blessed with revelation of the siddhanta of our ancient dharma. Get a life, Mazhar.

 

[theist]

 

There are any choices what to repeat and pray on beads like we may call 1 of 99 names of Allah or we may pray for prophet muhammad (pbuh) (which is called Durood in Islam) or we may recite any verse of Quran, etc.

 

Thank you. The question is actually directly related to the topic you raised on idol worship.

 

Those names of Allah are undoubtly holy names. According to what we have been taught the holy names of God are a form of God. Gods names are totally spiritual. The Lord also has an unlimited number of names because He Himself is unlimited in every way.

 

Sound vibration is also a form. Every sound leaves a distinct pattern that distinquishes it from any other sound vibration. The sound Coca Cola is a material sound that is vibrated by the vocal cords and registers on the ear drums of the earthly body and we perceive it in that way. Just as a painting or sculture has certain patterns that register on the eyes and optic nerve and we perceive the painting through the sense of sight.

 

Now what is the difference between the name Coca Cola and the name of God, Allah? They both are vibrated by the vocal chords and perceived through the sense of hearing? We have been taught that the name of Allah or any name of God has been invested with spiritual potency by the Lord Himself and is therefore a sound incarnation of the Lord although it appears to be material like any ordinary sound.It is not an ordinary sound however because it carries the very presence of the Lord.

 

So in this way God appears before our limited ears in the form of His name and likewise He agrees to appear before our eyes in the form of the Murti so that we may offer Him various kinds of service.

 

So you worship the names of Allah in sound form. Are you an idol worshipper? of course not. You see Muzhar you also worship God in Deity from as His sound vibration incarnation or name.

 

In Krsna consciousness we are learning to not only hear Him in His names but to see Him as the Deity and even taste Him in the form of sanctified food or prasadam.

 

So our paths are the same only we are engaging the rest of our senses, other than just hearing, in the perception of the Lord.

 

Now please be clear I am not saying that anyone can worship any thing calling it God and it is the same thing. Unless the Lord has agreed to appear before the devotee as sound or painting or sculpture or burning bush then the worship is idol worship. But if the Lord appears before in any of these ways no one can rightly denigrate our mode of worship calling it idol worship.

 

Do you understand my point hear? Do you agree?

[Mazhar]

 

And where did you get this translation from? The Vedas and other Shruti texts are often written in cryptic language which is next to impossible to decipher for the ordinary people. For this reason, the part of Veda known as Smriti exists, for it brings out the real meaning of Shruti, for the spiritual benefit of the masses. This is Vedic dharma, and no cow-eater such as yourself can ever be blessed with revelation of the siddhanta of our ancient dharma. Get a life, Mazhar.

 

Brother, what you should care about is that the quotation is right or wrong? Why you care about from where I got the translation? If it is wrong then tell me it is wrong.

[LoveroftheBhagavata]

 

Brother, I am not compelling any hindu to beleive what i say. I am telling you the verses of your own books. I am not giving my own opinion. I am translating your books If you think I am wrong then correct me brother. I am here for a peaceful dicussion.

 

So now you're a Sanskrit scholar, right? Puhleeeze!

[Mazhar]

 

 

Your own 1,400-year-old religion has no true concept of something as basic as the soul, and you have the cheek to come here stupidly preach to us views that are contrarian to something that we know since time immemorial.

 

.

 

Brother Islam is not 1400 years old and prophet muhammad is not the founder of islam. Islam is there since man came on earth i.e. from the time of Hazrat Adam pbuh, and He was the first messenger of God. Prophet muhammad pbuh is the last and final messenger of God for whole of humanity and Quran is the last book which is for the whole human kind.

 

 

And whether Kaaba represents Allah or not is just immaterial. You do make use of its symbolism to direct yourself during prayer, period. Likewise, Hindus, Buddhists, Catholics, Sikhs and others all have a legitimate right to their symbolisms. You can rave and rant all you want about this, but nobody is going to pay heed to your uninformed ramblings. Go back to where you belong, man.

 

Kaaba is not the symbol of Allah. It is made for a direction and that's it.

[LoveroftheBhagavata]

 

Brother, what you should care about is that the quotation is right or wrong? Why you care about from where I got the translation? If it is wrong then tell me it is wrong.

 

Yeah, you take a dubious translation of a text, twist it out of context and we should all submit to it as gospel, eh? No verse stands on its own, deprived of overall meaning and context. I'd accept the version espoused by knowledgeable pandits and swamis proficient in both Sanskrit and sadhana as the true word of shastra any day, rather than seriously consider the disingenuous distortions of a casual unenlightened dabbler such as you.

 

Sat Sanatana Dharma Ki Jaya!

 

And I repeat that we need Smriti in order to understand Shruti. And Smriti-shastra definitely contains elaborate descriptions of how murti-puja should be done. End of discussion!!!

[Mazhar]

 

Thank you. The question is actually directly related to the topic you raised on idol worship.

 

Those names of Allah are undoubtly holy names. According to what we have been taught the holy names of God are a form of God. Gods names are totally spiritual. The Lord also has an unlimited number of names because He Himself is unlimited in every way.

 

Sound vibration is also a form. Every sound leaves a distinct pattern that distinquishes it from any other sound vibration. The sound Coca Cola is a material sound that is vibrated by the vocal cords and registers on the ear drums of the earthly body and we perceive it in that way. Just as a painting or sculture has certain patterns that register on the eyes and optic nerve and we perceive the painting through the sense of sight.

 

Now what is the difference between the name Coca Cola and the name of God, Allah? They both are vibrated by the vocal chords and perceived through the sense of hearing? We have been taught that the name of Allah or any name of God has been invested with spiritual potency by the Lord Himself and is therefore a sound incarnation of the Lord although it appears to be material like any ordinary sound.It is not an ordinary sound however because it carries the very presence of the Lord.

 

So in this way God appears before our limited ears in the form of His name and likewise He agrees to appear before our eyes in the form of the Murti so that we may offer Him various kinds of service.

 

So you worship the names of Allah in sound form. Are you an idol worshipper? of course not. You see Muzhar you also worship God in Deity from as His sound vibration incarnation or name.

 

In Krsna consciousness we are learning to not only hear Him in His names but to see Him as the Deity and even taste Him in the form of sanctified food or prasadam.

 

So our paths are the same only we are engaging the rest of our senses, other than just hearing, in the perception of the Lord.

 

Now please be clear I am not saying that anyone can worship any thing calling it God and it is the same thing. Unless the Lord has agreed to appear before the devotee as sound or painting or sculpture or burning bush then the worship is idol worship. But if the Lord appears before in any of these ways no one can rightly denigrate our mode of worship calling it idol worship.

 

Do you understand my point hear? Do you agree?

 

Brother Thiest I did not understand your point completely. Make it short please. Thanks

[Mazhar]

 

Yeah, you take a dubious translation of a text, twist it out of context and we should all submit to it as gospel, eh? No verse stands on its own, deprived of overall meaning and context. I'd accept the version espoused by knowledgeable pandits and swamis proficient in both Sanskrit and sadhana as the true word of shastra any day, rather than seriously consider the disingenuous distortions of a casual unenlightened dabbler such as you.

 

Sat Sanatana Dharma Ki Jaya!

 

And I repeat that we need Smriti in order to understand Shruti. And Smriti-shastra definitely contains elaborate descriptions of how murti-puja should be done. End of discussion!!!

 

If it is out of context brother then you give the context to me.

[theist]

It is short enough. This thread is already 5 pages long. My words are short in comparison. If you don't have patience to consider what I wrote then so be it. Please take your time and thoughtfully consider what I took the time to thoughtfully write. It is an important question and deserves to be approached carefully.

 

If not then I have nothing more to say.

[Mazhar]

 

It is short enough. This thread is already 5 pages long. My words are short in comparison. If you don't have patience to consider what I wrote then so be it. Please take your time and thoughtfully consider what I took the time to thoughtfully write. It is an important question and deserves to be approached carefully.

 

If not then I have nothing more to say.

 

Actually i was reading it very fast, now i will read it carefully.

[theist]

Thank you. I will look for your response tomorrow.

 

God bless