Misuse Of Free Will In Causal Ocean?

[suchandra]

Interesting point, your decision in a state of that your act may be cited as unsoundness of mind act is the cause for falling into the material world?

In other words, an ignorant child making the wrong decision receives the same result as a high court judge making a wrong decision. Looks this makes lots of sense for many Vaishnavas.

 

"Further, the following statement from the Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad, 4.3.18, describes the nature of the marginal position of the jiva:

 

<center>tad yaths mahs matsya ubhe kule'

nusancarati purvam ca param caivam

evsyam purusa etsv ubhav antav

anusancarati svapnantam ca buddhantam ca </center>

"The symptoms of the marginal existence are like those of a huge aquatic who is capable of living on both the eastern and western sides of the river at his own will. Similarly,

the jiva soul, situated within the waters of the Causal Ocean

, which lies between the material and spiritual worlds, is able to reside in both the dream world of matter and the spiritual world of divine wakefulness."

 

As we see above, the Upanishad explains that the jiva chooses either the material or spiritual world "at his own will". Thus he misuses his independence in the Casual Ocean, not, as Srila Prabhupada explains in all the quotes above, from within the Supreme Abode of the Lord.

The relevant point is that, within the Casual Ocean, between the material and spiritual creation, the jiva, situated in the devotionally nascent condition of santa-rasa, is not fortified by the hladini-sakti. Active devotional service impelled by affection for the Supreme Lord has not yet awoken. Thus he is in a spiritually weak position. In this condition he may choose to rebel against the perceived supremacy of the Supreme Lord and thus fall to the material energy and pursue the illusory goal of competitive independent enjoyment. On the other hand, he may surrender to the Supreme Lord in affection and thus enter the spiritual planets for active service in the four higher primary rasas: servitude, fraternity, parental and conjugal. In such service, he becomes fortified by the cit and hladini-shaktis, i.e. knowledge and happiness (bliss). Thus he attains the pure, sublime status of nitya-siddha, eternally perfected. This eternal perfection is also available for those souls who have fallen into the material world should they practice devotional service under the guidance of guru, sadhu and sastra, faithfully.

We hope this is found helpful,

Your servant,

Balavidya dasa

 

 

full essay: http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03-08/editorials2636.htm

[Kulapavana]

 

Thus he misuses his independence in the Casual Ocean, not, as Srila Prabhupada explains in all the quotes above, from within the Supreme Abode of the Lord.

 

 

 

 

Sometimes a guru will tell the disciple that the snake is a rope, or that a rope is a snake, in order to help the disciple transcend his particular conditioning. Yet the rope is always a rope, and a snake is always a snake and the knowers of truth are not bewildered. Thus the knowers of truth are not bewildered by Srila Prabhupada's instructions for his deeply conditioned disciples. However, the ones who are still under the influence of a particular conditioning will argue among themselves as to whether the snake is a rope, or vice versa.

[Svarupa]

 

Interesting point, your decision in a state of that your act may be cited as unsoundness of mind act is the cause for falling into the material world?

 

 

Interesting point, your decision in a state of that your act may be cited as unsoundness of mind act is the cause for falling into the material world?

 

Srila Prabhupada said on April 20, 1972, in Tokyo, Japan - “no one falls from Vaikuntha.”

Srila Prabhupada means by this comment that we actually are ALWAYS in Goloka and that sometimes we may ‘think’, ‘dream’ or ‘imagine we are not ALWAYS with Krsna.

 

It is because of that state of mind ONLY we think we are fallen, but actually we have not fallen anywhere, we only have dreamt we have, thats what Prabhupada REALLY MEANS when he says “no one falls from Vaikuntha.”

Srila Prabhupada – “Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In the dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that”.

Srila Prabhupada - “This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position”.

Srila Prabhupada – “Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there”.

Srila Prabhupada – “In the material condition of all living entities, there are three stages of dreaming. When the material world is awake and put in working order, this is a kind of dream, a waking dream. When the living entities go to sleep, they dream again. And when unconscious at the time of annihilation, when this material world is unmanifested, they enter another stage of dreaming. At any stage in the material world, therefore, they are all dreaming. In the spiritual world, however, everything is awake”. Srimad Bhagavatam canto 8 chapter 1 text 9 purport.

 

 

 

So how can we be in the material and spiritual world simultaneously?

 

 

The answer is the time factor and not the division of the self. The nitya-siddha is referred to as the eternal form or higher self of ones marginal identity while the nitya-baddha consciousness is devoid of form and is referred to as the secondary inferior conscious projection or lower self that is activated by ones non-Krishna conscious desires, dreams and thoughts.

It only appears that way due to eternal time in relation to divided time. These realizations cannot be learnt on an academic level, they must come from the amazing and causeless mercy of the Srila Prabhupada.

Acintyah means inconceivable though the way to understand the apparent existence and paradox of both the nitya-siddha body and the nitya-baddha consciousness existing at the same time is that the nitya-siddha bodily self is eternally liberated in Goloka, existing in the endless presents and pastimes of Krishna, while the nitya-baddha bodiless dreaming consciousness is eternally conditioned outside the Vaikuntha realm in either a conscious Impersonal inactive dormant condition, where one is not aware of past, present and future or within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu, where the nitya-baddha consciousness is confined to ethereal and biological bodily vessels that He provides so one can actively act out their dreams within His mahat-tattva.

As already explained, the mahat-tattva is governed by past, present and future that has the by-product of impermanence and decay, both are temporary conditions because the nitya-baddha consciousness is not who one really is perpetually.

The marginal living entity does not go from nitya siddha to nitya badda as one moderator misunderstood, THATS NOT POSSIBLE because everyone is always nitya-siddha and only DREAM they are nitya baddha. The nitya-siddha svarupa identity is eternally ones genuin identity perpetually.

The dreaming nitya-baddha consciousness on the other hand enters the dreams of Maha-Vishnu.and is given ethereal and biological bodily facilities or vessels that make such dreams real but subject to decay or real but temporary.

 

At the same 'time' that one chooses to be absorbed in their non-Krishna nitya-baddha dreams, ones 'svarupa' body is perpetually in Goloka.in the eternal 'present'.

Unfortunately even many ISKCON devotees cannot understand this and choose to not get involved. At times Srila Prabhupada said it was a waste of time to understand and at other times he said it was important to understand.

 

We must remember that ISKCON is only in the very early pioneering stages and many great souls are waiting for the right time to take birth when they feel their Spiritual development is protected and nurtured with eyes open with knowledge and devotion and not imitation.

 

The ISKCON movement will attract great souls as devotees become genuinely pure, humble and strong without imitation. There is a great Spiritual change coming!

Ones awareness of reality is simply based on the concept of time governed by whether one chooses to serve Krishna or reject Krishna. From the nitya-siddha Krishna Conscious bodily point of view, the nitya-baddha bodiless consciousness simply does not exist; it’s not even an illusion to them because such an illusion does not exist as part of their nitya-siddha-svarupa body.

 

This is important to understand.

On the other hand, the nitya-siddha devotee’s are aware of the dark cloud in Vaikuntha Spiritual Sky that is real but only a temporary manifestation and is a place where the marginal living entities non-Krishna conscious dreams go to be embodied and pursued.

 

The paradox here is such dreams have no effect in perpetual time in Goloka-Vrndavana and on return to their genuine bodily svarupa self; it will be as if they never left.

Srila Prabhupada explains ones so called fall down like this and then says that technically one never falls down, they only 'think' they have left Goloka.

Srila Prabhupada also explains that the tendency or possibility is always there with all marginal devotees to forget Krishna and their eternal nitya-siddha-svarupa body they serve Krishna as, because of being marginal energy of the Lord.

 

One can either choose to stay with Krishna or reject Him due to their independent marginal status. Such wishes are the choice all marginal living entities have – that is why they are called marginal.

Srila Prabhupada clearly tells us that actually no-one falls down because their svarupa body never leaves Goloka-Vrndavana and that one only ‘thinks’ they are fallen or ‘dreams’ they are fallen, but in the perpetual reality of the eternal 'presents' of Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, no one never falls down.

[Kulapavana]

 

Srila Prabhupada clearly tells us that actually no-one falls down because their svarupa body never leaves Goloka-Vrndavana and that one only ‘thinks’ they are fallen or ‘dreams’ they are fallen, but in the perpetual reality of the eternal 'presents' of Goloka-Vrndavana/Vaikuntha, no one never falls down.

 

In the contest between sruti (Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad) and the often conflicting comments of Srila Prabhupada, one must accept the sruti as the ultimate authority. Anything else is shastra-ninda.

 

Svarupa-ji... it is now safe to see the rope as the rope, and the snake as the snake. Prabhupada did not concoct the sleeper-vada apa-siddhanta. He was merely trying to help Westerners get over their religious conditioning.

[Svarupa]

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Kulapavana] In the contest between sruti (Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad) and the often conflicting comments of Srila Prabhupada, one must accept the sruti as the ultimate authority. Anything else is shastra-ninda.

 

Svarupa-ji... Prabhupada explains clearly we have come down from Goloka.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

Yes Kulapavana prabhu finally you have understood as explained below -

 

Srila Prabhupada means by this comment is that we actually are ALWAYS in Goloka and that sometimes we may ‘think’, ‘dream’ or ‘imagine we are not ALWAYS with Krsna.

It is because of that state of mind ONLY we think we are fallen, but actually we have not fallen anywhere, we only have dreamt we have, thats what Prabhupada REALLY MEANS when he says “no one falls from Vaikuntha.”

[Kulapavana]

 

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Kulapavana] In the contest between sruti (Brhad-aranyaka Upanisad) and the often conflicting comments of Srila Prabhupada, one must accept the sruti as the ultimate authority. Anything else is shastra-ninda.

 

Svarupa-ji... Prabhupada explains clearly we have come down from Goloka.

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

Yes Kulapavana prabhu finally you have understood as explained below -

 

Just like you dishonestly twist and pervert my words, you do the same with your guru's words, only to feed your ego.

 

It is the verdict of sruti shastras, that living entities originate from tatastha shakti in the Causal Ocean (Viraja) and not from Vaikuntha. You have never been to Vaikuntha, but I wish you luck getting there.

[Svarupa]

Srila Prabhupada- "The supreme knowledge of Krsna is exhibited in three different energies -

1. internal,

2. marginal and

3. external.

 

1. By virtue of His internal energy, He exists in Himself with His spiritual paraphernalia.

2. By means of His marginal energy (tatastha sakti), He exhibits Himself as the living entities.

 

3. And by means of His Lifeless external energy which includes all bodily costumes, He exhibits Himself as material energy. (also known as the mahat-tattva)

 

Srila Prabhupada -"It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. (anology only) Krsna has three varieties of energy" Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.108-109

It is important to understand how we all originally came down from Vaikuntha by clearly understanding the following -

 

The three varieties of energies of Lord Krishna are therefore

 

Superior - Krishna and His unlimited expansions. Within the immensity of Krishna’s perpetual abodes is also where the marginal living entity in their perpetual svarupa form reside serving Krishna or a Vishnu expansion. It is important to undertand that even though they are associating with the superior energies of Krishna, they are never one with the superior energy, they always remain marginal or jiva tatastha.

 

Marginal - The living entities or jiva-tatastha's (of whom their full potential is nitya-siddha in Goloka) are perpetually independant and eternally have free will. This means they have the choice to be with Krishna as who they really are (nitya-siddha) or manifest their own imaginary world as nitya-baddha in the mahat-tattva. Having choice (jiva-tatastha) is what it really means to be inbetween the Superior and inferior. One chooses either Krishna's perpetual creation or Maha-Vishnu's temporary DREAM creation.

 

Inferior - The mahat-tattva or lifeless material energies that include the ethereal and biological vessels or costume bodies. The life force from the Superior plain (Krishna and His expansions like Maha-Vishnu) and the marginal plain (the jiva-tatastha in their secondary nitya-baddha DREAMING conscious projection [except of course a nitya-siddha devotee in Krishna's lila in the mahat-tattva like Srila Prabhupada]) ALL move the inferior energies (material) that has no life.

 

There are only two types of living beings in ALL of Krishna's perpetual creation, Vishnu tattva's and jiva tattva's (MARGINAL living beings

 

Srila Prabhupada. - “The word varnam refers to the lustre (effulgence) of one’s original identity. The original lustre of gold or silver is brilliant. Similarly, the original lustre of the living being, who is part of the sac-cid-ānanda-vigraha [bs. 5.1], is the lustre of ānanda, or pleasure”. Tokyo in 1972

Srila Prabhupada “Within this effulgence there are innumerable spiritual planets, and they are known as the Vaikuntha planets.

Each and every Vaikuntha planet is many, many times bigger than the biggest universe within the material world, and in each of them there are innumerable inhabitants who look exactly like Lord Vishnu.

These inhabitants are known as the Maha-paurusikas, or persons directly engaged in the service of the Lord. They are happy in those planets and are without any kind of misery, and they live perpetually in full youthfulness, enjoying life in full bliss and knowledge without fear of birth, death, old age or disease, and without the influence of kala, eternal time.” (Bhag. 1.14.36)

Srila Prabhupada - “We can again revive our brightness and shine with the Supreme Person. As the sun and the sunshine, they are together shining, there is light, similarly, when we are again posted in our own constitutional position, Krsna is LIKE the sun and we are LIKE the shining particles, then our life is successful. ” Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.16.35 – Hawaii, January 28, 1974

Svarupa Damodara - “The spirit soul must necessarily have a body, either spiritual or material”.

Srila Prabhupada - “He has got already spiritual body. Material body is his covering. It is unnatural. Real body is spiritual. Just like your coat, this is unnatural. But your real body is natural. Otherwise how transmigration is possible? I am accepting different unnatural bodies. Unnatural means to my constitution. My real constitutional body is servant of Krsna. So, so long I do not come to that position, I remain servant of nature and I get so many bodies.” .Svarupa Damodara wedsite

“The living entities are not without spiritual senses. Every living being in his original, spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes.” Sri Ishopanishad, Verse 11

Srila Prabhupada - “The living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated (nitya-siddha) and eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha). But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can’t be eternally conditioned (nitya-baddha). The time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Letter sent to Upendra prabhu

Srila Prabhupada – ‘This ordinary living being is of two kinds — nitya-baddha or nitya-mukta. One is eternally conditioned and the other eternally liberated. The eternally liberated living beings are in the Vaikuntha jagat, the spiritual world, and they never fall into the material world.’ SB 5.11.12 Purport

Then Srila Prabhupada explains.

Srila Prabhupada – “…We are eternally conditioned, (NITYA-BADDHA) but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated (NITYA-SIDDHA) but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned’ Letter to Aniruddha, dated November 14, 1968,

Srila Prabhupada “This is confirmed in all Vedic literature. Nityo nityanam cetanas cetananam. So, as we are also persons, individual living beings, we are persons, we have got our individuality, we are all individual, similarly the Supreme Truth, the Supreme Absolute, He is also, at the ultimate issue He is a person. But realization of the Personality of Godhead is realization of all the transcendental features like sat, cit, and ananda, in complete vigraha Gitopanisad by Srila Prabhupada Part Two

Srila Prabhupada - “Originally everyone is nitya-siddha. Nitya-siddha krsna-bhakti ’sadhya’ kabhu naya sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya Every living entity originally nitya-siddha, “. Srimad-Bhagavatam Class 7.9.4– Mayapur, February 18, 1977

“The living entity should become purified and regain his svarūpa, his original identity” Srimad Bhagavatam 8.24.48

The Impersonalist understanding today is rampant and affecting many who wrongly believe that the jiva-soul becomes conscious after originally ‘falling out’ of the Brahmajyoti and then ‘somehow’ becomes endowed with free will, therefore their understanding of the Brahmajyoti is obviously impersonal and therefore dangerous. Such sects do not understand the correct PERSONAL teaching of the Vedas given to us by Jagat Guru His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

The description Padmalochan gave is that when the moon is reflected in water, it is not really in the water–the real moon is in the sky. But if the water moves, the reflection in the water appears to move.

It looks like a distorted, mis-shapen, moving moon. Sometimes we can hardly see any reflected moon at all. In our conditioned state, our understanding is like that distorted reflection. When we have our consciousness purified by listening with proper attention and submission to Srila Prabhupada, then the consciousness becomes perfect like a still, glassy pond, or a polished mirror, and we will be able to see the real moon as it actually is”

I associated with Padmalochan Prabhu in Vrndavana. He was a very knowledgeable therefore his understanding of Vrndavana and Srila Prabhupada’s books can only have become more nectarine over the years.

The full expression and complete potential of ALL marginal living entities is their perpetual ’svarupa’ body that is eternally situated and established within Goloka or Vaikuntha. Therefore it can then be said that the marginal living entities who have miss-used their free will and chose to enter the maha-tattva, are only temporarily trapped within the material creation, while their undying ‘svarupa’ body is currently laying dormant (hidden from their present awareness) within Goloka or Vaikuntha.

Of course this viewpoint is only from the marginal living entities perspective or standpoint within the material creation. Their conditional existence continues on until the marginal living entity again becomes responsive enough to perceive their true original Krishna Conscious bodily foundation within Goloka or Vaikuntha.

A rudimentary example of this is when someone goes away from watching a movie; putting the DVD player on hold or pause, let me explain -.It should be noted this example does not mean the spiritual pastimes of Goloka can ever be been put on hold or pause for the benefit of the marginal living entity, such a ridicules proposal is not what I am trying to communicate here. On the other hand, from the perspective of the marginal living entity within the material world, their relationship with Krishna HAS been presently put on hold or ‘pause’ while they ‘consciously’ roam around the temporary material creation.

This is only an analogy describing that the jiva soul’s relationship with Krishna CAN AND IS put on hold due to them falling out of sync with their nitya-siddha body in Goloka and ‘sub-consciously’ taking shelter within divided time within the maha-tattva.

In this way the marginal living entity forgets the eternal devotional realm of Krishna’s pastimes going on in Goloka. Such pastimes are perpetually established and founded within the never-ending ‘present’, which is the reality of Goloka and Vaikuntha.

In this way our eternal svarupa body is fully established in Goloka and has always has been there.

 

Srila Prabhupada - “He has got already spiritual body. Material body is his covering. It is unnatural. Real body is spiritual. Just like your coat, this is unnatural. But your real body is natural. Otherwise how transmigration is possible? I am accepting different unnatural bodies. Unnatural means to my constitution. My real constitutional body is servant of Krsna. So, so long I do not come to that position, I remain servant of nature and I get so many bodies.” .Svarupa Damodara weds

 

 

 

[Svarupa]

Come on boys and girls like Beggar and his good wife Shakt fan, let throw a veggie burger on the barbi and argue the point, no glocks allowed - yet

[suchandra]

 

Just like you dishonestly twist and pervert my words, you do the same with your guru's words, only to feed your ego.

 

It is the verdict of sruti shastras, that living entities originate from tatastha shakti in the Causal Ocean (Viraja) and not from Vaikuntha. You have never been to Vaikuntha, but I wish you luck getting there.

It looks to me like you are trying to appear like an intelligent eccentric philosopher here. But how much sense does it make to say, although we have no real knowledge in maha-tattva that we can actually make clear decisions and on this basis reject something what we don't even know? How you can seriously reject something without knowing it?

 

On the other hand this is what modern science is also preaching, human beings/living entities are of no worth, although nicely assembled, we originate from matter, maha-tattva.

 

Sounds like nice poetry, but as far as some thought goes, its as empty as Dracula's coffin at midnight.

How can I say, no, I don't want to be in Vaikuntha without having any glimpse of understanding what is Vaikuntha?

[Kulapavana]

 

It looks to me like you are trying to appear like an intelligent eccentric philosopher here. But how much sense does it make to say, although we have no real knowledge in maha-tattva that we can actually make clear decisions and on this basis reject something what we don't even know? How you can seriously reject something without knowing it?

 

On the other hand this is what modern science is also preaching, human beings/living entities are of no worth, although nicely assembled, we originate from matter, maha-tattva.

 

Sounds like nice poetry, but as far as some thought goes, its as empty as Dracula's coffin at midnight.

How can I say, no, I don't want to be in Vaikuntha without having any glimpse of understanding what is Vaikuntha?

 

When we are in the Viraja (not to be confused with maha-tattva) we are NOT rejecting the spiritual world without ever knowing it. We are simply making a choice to move towards the material realm. Big difference. Making just one choice out of at least 3 available to us (stay in Viraja, move towards the material realm, move towards Vaikuntha).

 

To think that one would reject the All-attractive after knowing Him is extremely improbable and illogical, since it negates the meaning of the word "all-attractive".

 

But the sruti shastra is clear. We come from Viraja.

[Svarupa]

Srila Prabhupada - “He has got already spiritual body. Material body is his covering. It is unnatural. Real body is spiritual. Just like your coat, this is unnatural. But your real body is natural. Otherwise how transmigration is possible? I am accepting different unnatural bodies. Unnatural means to my constitution. My real constitutional body is servant of Krsna. So, so long I do not come to that position, I remain servant of nature and I get so many bodies.” .Svarupa Damodara weds

 

Srila Prabhupada -"It is the living entity’s constitutional position to be an eternal servant of Krsna because he is the marginal energy of Krsna and a manifestation simultaneously one with and different from the Lord, like a molecular particle of sunshine or fire. (anology only) Krsna has three varieties of energy" Sri Caitanya Caritamrta Madhya 20.108-109

It is important to understand how we all originally came down from Vaikuntha

[Beggar]

I came from the Viraja River

With my mrdanga on my knee,

I'm goin' to West Bengal

My favorite diety for to see;

It rained all night the day I left,

The weather it was dry;

The sun so hot I froze to death;

bhaktin Susanna, don't you cry.

 

O, bhaktin Susanna,

O, don't you cry for me,

I've come from the Viraja River

With my mrdanga on my knee.

O, Susanna,

O, don't you cry for me,

'Cause I'm goin' to West Bengal,

My favorite diety for to see.

 

I had a dream the other night

When ev'rything was still;

I thought I saw bhaktin Susanna

A-comin' down the hill;

An Ekadasi buckwheat cake was in her mouth,

The tear was in her eye;

Says I, I'm comin' from the south,

bhaktin Susanna, don't you cry.

 

O, bhaktin Susanna,

O, don't you cry for me,

I've come from the Viraja River

With my mrdanga on my knee.

O, Susanna,

O, don't you cry for me,

'Cause I'm goin' to Uttar Pradesa,

My ista deva for to see.

 

I soon will be in New Delhi,

And then I'll look around,

And when I find the temple

I'll fall upon the ground.

And if I do not find the temple,

Then I will surely die,

And when I'm dead and cremated,

bhaktin Susanna, don't you cry.

 

O, bhaktin Susanna,

O, don't you cry for me,

I've come from the Viraja River

With my mrdanga on my knee.

O, bhaktin Susanna,

O, don't you cry for me,

'Cause I'm goin' to U.P,

My ista deva for to see.

[Kulapavana]

"It's a rope!"

"It's a snake!"

[bhaktajan]

Sri Isopanisad Mantra #17:

"Let this temporary body be burnt to ashes, and let the air of life be merged with the totality of air. Now, O my Lord, please remember all my sacrifices, and because You are the ultimate beneficiary, please remember all that I have done for You."

PURPORT [by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada]:

The temporary material body is certainly a foreign dress. The Bhagavad-gita (2.20) clearly says that after the destruction of the material body the living entity is not annihilated, nor does he lose his identity. The identity of the living entity is never impersonal or formless; on the contrary, it is the material dress that is formless and that takes a shape according to the form of the indestructible person. No living entity is originally formless, as is wrongly thought by those with a poor fund of knowledge. This mantra verifies the fact that the living entity exists after the annihilation of the material body.

In the material world, material nature displays wonderful workmanship by creating varieties of bodies for the living beings according to their propensities for sense gratification. The living entity who wants to taste stool is given a material body that is quite suitable for eating stool—that of a hog.

. . . As we have learned from previous mantras, the brahmajyoti emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord is full of spiritual sparks that are individual entities with the full sense of existence.

(Bhaktajan's note: Herein now, Srila Prabhupada does not state "how nor by whom living entities, who want to enjoy," are consigned—but just that they are consigned.)

Sometimes these living entities want to enjoy their senses, and therefore they are placed in the material world to become false lords under the dictation of the senses.

The desire for lordship is the material disease of the living being, for under the spell of sense enjoyment he transmigrates through the various bodies manifested in the material world. Becoming one with the brahmajyoti does not represent mature knowledge. Only by surrendering unto the Lord completely and developing one’s sense of spiritual service does one reach the highest perfectional stage.

In this mantra the living entity prays to enter the spiritual <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comkingdom </ST1:Pof <ST1:PGod </st1:place>after relinquishing his material body and material air. The devotee prays to the Lord to remember his activities and the sacrifices he has performed before his material body is turned into ashes. He makes this prayer at the time of death, with full consciousness of his past deeds and of the ultimate goal. One who is completely under the rule of material nature remembers the heinous activities he performed during the existence of his material body, and consequently he gets another material body after death. . . .

The facilities of devotional service are denied the impersonalists because they are attached to the brahmajyoti feature of the Lord. As suggested in the previous mantras, they cannot penetrate the brahma-jyoti because they do not believe in the personality of Godhead. Their business is mostly word jugglery and mental speculation. Consequently the impersonalists pursue a fruitless labor, as confirmed in the Twelfth Chapter of the Bhagavad-gita (12.5).

All the facilities suggested in this mantra can be easily obtained by constant contact with the personal feature of the Absolute Truth. Devotional service to the Lord consists essentially of nine transcendental activities: (1) hearing about the Lord, (2) glorifying the Lord, (3) remembering the Lord, (4) serving the lotus feet of the Lord, (5) worshiping the Lord, (6) offering prayers to the Lord, (7) serving the Lord, (8) enjoying friendly association with the Lord, and (9) surrendering everything unto the Lord. These nine principles of devotional service—taken all together or one by one—help a devotee remain constantly in touch with God. In this way, at the end of life it is easy for the devotee to remember the Lord. By adopting only one of these nine principles, the following renowned devotees of the Lord were able to achieve the highest perfection: . . .

[Beggar]

Don't worry boys, I'm just gettin warmed up.

[Kulapavana]

. . . As we have learned from previous mantras, the brahmajyoti emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord is full of spiritual sparks that are individual entities with the full sense of existence.

--------------------------

 

yes, that is our initial original position: spiritual sparks swirling in the mighty current of the Viraja River.

can one fall from brahmajyoti? of course... it happens all the time, but...

NO ONE FALLS FROM VAIKUNTHA!

how can some people not get it is hard to understand...

[Beggar]

Apparent opposites marked by color:

 

PURPORT [by A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada]:

The temporary material body is certainly a foreign dress. The Bhagavad-gita (2.20) clearly says that after the destruction of the material body the living entity is not annihilated, nor does he lose his identity. The identity of the living entity is never impersonal or formless; on the contrary, it is the material dress that is formless and that takes a shape according to the form of the indestructible person. No living entity is originally formless, as is wrongly thought by those with a poor fund of knowledge. This mantra verifies the fact that the living entity exists after the annihilation of the material body.

In the material world, material nature displays wonderful workmanship by creating varieties of bodies for the living beings according to their propensities for sense gratification. The living entity who wants to taste stool is given a material body that is quite suitable for eating stool—that of a hog.

. . . As we have learned from previous mantras, the brahmajyoti emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord is full of spiritual sparks that are individual entities with the full sense of existence. (Beggar's note:"spiritual sparks...with the full sense of existence." Talk about apparent contradictions!!!!!!)

(Bhaktajan's note: Herein now, Srila Prabhupada does not state "how nor by whom living entities, who want to enjoy," are consigned—but just that they are consigned.)

Sometimes these living entities want to enjoy their senses, and therefore they are placed in the material world to become false lords under the dictation of the senses.

The desire for lordship is the material disease of the living being, for under the spell of sense enjoyment he transmigrates through the various bodies manifested in the material world. Becoming one with the brahmajyoti does not represent mature knowledge. Only by surrendering unto the Lord completely and developing one’s sense of spiritual service does one reach the highest perfectional stage...

 

[Shakti-Fan]

Yes, before I was initiated I used to be bhaktin Susanna. That's why I married Beggar, because he is such a good song writer and understands siddhanta.

 

I came from the Viraja River

With my mrdanga on my knee,

I'm goin' to West Bengal

My favorite diety for to see;

It rained all night the day I left,

The weather it was dry;

The sun so hot I froze to death;

bhaktin Susanna, don't you cry.

 

O, bhaktin Susanna,

O, don't you cry for me,

I've come from the Viraja River

With my mrdanga on my knee.

O, Susanna,

O, don't you cry for me,

'Cause I'm goin' to West Bengal,

My favorite diety for to see.

 

I had a dream the other night

When ev'rything was still;

I thought I saw bhaktin Susanna

A-comin' down the hill;

An Ekadasi buckwheat cake was in her mouth,

The tear was in her eye;

Says I, I'm comin' from the south,

bhaktin Susanna, don't you cry.

 

O, bhaktin Susanna,

O, don't you cry for me,

I've come from the Viraja River

With my mrdanga on my knee.

O, Susanna,

O, don't you cry for me,

'Cause I'm goin' to Uttar Pradesa,

My ista deva for to see.

 

I soon will be in New Delhi,

And then I'll look around,

And when I find the temple

I'll fall upon the ground.

And if I do not find the temple,

Then I will surely die,

And when I'm dead and cremated,

bhaktin Susanna, don't you cry.

 

O, bhaktin Susanna,

O, don't you cry for me,

I've come from the Viraja River

With my mrdanga on my knee.

O, bhaktin Susanna,

O, don't you cry for me,

'Cause I'm goin' to U.P,

My ista deva for to see.

[bhaktajan]

The puranas are filled with stories of so many devotees, saints and door keepers and little boys and avadhutas getting their visas stamped over and over again as they set up and strike stage sets.

 

Brahma's first birth is in the Material world--after so much accumulated piety--so much piety from ascending from a unconscious nidra sleep in the brahmajyoti?

 

Brahma's piety was only good enough 'to relegate him to the material world'-- Brahma's path to enlightenment and moksa is all about his re-gaining his original pre-birth status--return home, back to Godhead, back to vaikuntha.

 

ys,

Bhaktajan

 

PS: Kula, at least, as you counter-argue, you know clearly what is stated by Srila Prabhupada and his devotees' devotees as the origins of the jiva.

[bhaktajan]

 

Apparent opposites marked by color:

 

A Challenger your self-Test custom scribed for beggers sensibilities:

 

Lord Balarama (Krishna's brother) came from the brahmajyoti emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord and Balarama is a "spiritual spark"as are individual entities --- with the full sense of existence.

 

thank me, you're welcomed, my honor and pleasure to serve you up,

Bhaktajan

[Kulapavana]

 

Kula, at least, as you counter-argue, you know clearly what is stated by Srila Prabhupada and his devotees' devotees as the origins of the jiva.

 

I clearly know that Srila Prabhupada sometimes called the rope a snake, and sometimes he called the snake the rope. On other occasions he called the snake a snake, and the rope a rope.

 

However, the shastra is clear that we all came from the Viraja part of brahmajyoti and that is what I accept, along with ALL Vaishnava schools and parivars, except for some confused people in Iskcon.

[Beggar]

 

Brahma's first birth is in the Material world--after so much accumulated piety--so much piety from ascending from a unconscious nidra sleep in the brahmajyoti?

 

 

Well at least we can agree that after a major dissolution at the end of Brahma's lifetime the entire material manifestation or mahat-tattva is wound up again into the body of Maha Visnu. Then when the material world is manifested again the jivas who enter the new creation are all in some kind of "nidra sleep", including the about to be infinite Brahmas of the the infinite material universes. This means that their levels of piety were obtained in the previous creation before dissolution. So your argument fails. Now what about the first time the material world is created? From the viewpoint of eternity, there is no first time, the cycle of creation and dissolution of the material world is perpetual or nitya, anadi - without beginning.

 

2/19/41 ---"mon cher seigneur, un qui vous attend sincèrement pour accorder votre pitié sans cause sur lui, tout le moment souffrant patiemment les réactions de ses obeisance respectueux passés de méfaits et d'offre vous avec son coeur, mots et corps, est sûrement habilité à la dévotion, parce que c'est devenu sa réclamation légitime". SB 10.14.8

[Vedesu]

Srila Prabhupada said that pure devotees do not misuse their free will. And why should they? As Kulapavana prabhu pointed out, Krsna is all-attractive. Krsna-prema is the perfection of life. And in Goloka Vrndavana, prema is ever-increasing. It is what the soul hankers for, and having attained this, there is no question about becoming "curious" for other so-called "higher" pleasures in life. No one falls from the level of prema. It is possible at bhava, (as in the case of Bharata Maharaja, becoming attached to a deer), but this example is simply given to illustrate the need for not stopping at bhava, but to perfect that bhava by attaining prema. Non-liberated souls who have not yet tasted the indescribable joy of krsna-prema are subject to misusing their free will.

 

Those who are under the impression that pure devotees in Goloka Vrndavana can fall from prema, or can lose that prema while sleeping or daydreaming have not yet grasped, even intellectually, what krsna-prema is all about.

[Beggar]

 

Those who are under the impression that pure devotees in Goloka Vrndavana can fall from prema, or can lose that prema while sleeping or daydreaming have not yet grasped, even intellectually, what krsna-prema is all about.

And that understanding of prema even on an intellectual level will not come "either by the instructions of others, by their own efforts, or by a combination of both." Unless one becomes very sincere an humble and approaches a qualified siksa guru. The principle of guru is universal, that is for everywhere, for all persons, at all times and all places.

[bhaktajan]

Originally Posted by Beggar

A) . . . This means that their levels of piety were obtained in the previous creation before dissolution. So your argument fails.

 

B) . . . Now what about the first time the material world is created? From the viewpoint of eternity, there is no first time, the cycle of creation and dissolution of the material world is perpetual or nitya, anadi - without beginning.

.................................................................................................

Bhaktajan's rebuttal:

A) My argument is that the 'level of piety to: be born of Vishnu, receive the Vedas while strolling wth Krsna in Vaikuntha, create the material cosmos, populate the cosmos with Devas, Live longer than any being in the cosmos--this is a result of being granted a benediction from above to allow one the chance to be lord of all Brahma surveys.

 

I have no knowledge of where in sastra a Jiva has risen/ascended ['piety obtained in the previous creation before dissolution'--I may be wrong here?] to the level of a Brahmaji, nor, now that I think about it, nor do I know of a Jiva rising up to assume the position of a Deva-superintendent-manager of the material cosmic affairs.

 

Nor do I have knowledge of Brahma's being born as a result of material karma-kanda expertise tapasyas and yajnas.

 

B) 'the material world is perpetual or nitya, anadi - without beginning.'--but you think that the evidence and logic points toward the jivas being born with from unconscious-ness and ignorance???

 

thank me, you're welcomed, my honor and pleasure to serve you up,

Bhaktajan

 

PS: an inadvance:

"thank me, you're welcomed, my honor and pleasure to serve you up, each and every time"