Are atheists fools?

[JustRish]

I know what many believers think. Atheists are evil. Atheists are fools. No believer should waste time with atheists. I see this on the internet a lot. But I have tried so hard. I have educated myself on scriptures (the Bhagyavad Gita mainly). But something is not working. I can’t get my brain around to think that the universe has been created by a supreme being. Call it “maya” or what not. I don’t understand, and its not as if I haven’t tried to understand.

 

The reason is not rebellion either. I come from a Jain family. I respect our gurus (especially Mahavir) and do pray to them. But not as a supreme being who created this universe. I am also interested in Buddhism.

 

 

This is my view of God and this is the conclusion I have arrived at: nature is god and god is nature. So yes, I am pantheist. And surprise! I believe in souls, I believe in reincarnation too. But I just cannot get my head around to believe there is a supreme being who created the earth. I believe nature was responsible for creating earth and thus I believe nature is god. Plants, grass, animals, etc are part of nature and thus I see them as god.

 

But why is there so much negative views about atheists as if we are evil fools? Has anyone even tried to understand an atheist?

[theist]

Atheists are fools for they flatly deny the existence of the Supreme Lord. I think you are really an agnostic. An agnostic is one who honestly admits they do not know the answer to the question of if God exists or not. I respect agnostics a great deal because of this honesty.

 

Also many people who claim to be theists are not as honest as agnostics because they may harbor doubts they themselves are reluctant to admit to themselves.

 

Beyond this it can be said that everyone who has taken birth in the material seeking happiness is a fool rather they believe in God or not.

 

I am a fool. No doubt about it. But I am trying to change by gaining knowledge of God consciousness.

 

So you believe in nature as God. I would like to ask you do you believe that nature has intelligence?

[LoveroftheBhagavata]

 

But why is there so much negative views about atheists as if we are evil fools? Has anyone even tried to understand an atheist?

 

Some of the most moral and compassionate people on earth are atheists. I for one certainly don't judge them.

[indulekhadasi]

Even murderers are compassionate to some people. Doesn't make them saints.

[JustRish]

 

So you believe in nature as God. I would like to ask you do you believe that nature has intelligence?

Tough question. You gave me new ways of looking at it thanks.

 

I believe that the universe (nature) gave birth to our planet. It was a natural force. But did this planet involve intelligent design? This is what I find hard to understand. I also find it hard to believe that the universe has feeling. And does god have a judgement day for those who do not believe? Erm that is also something hard to understand.

 

When I say nature I include animals, people and plants. I also include the universe and the planet. I believe people, animals and plants have intelligence. But this intelligence is misused mostly by people. They are set out to destroy this planet. The earth, however, is kind and so is the universe and can bear this weight, but for how long? But does the universe have intelligence? I find that difficult to grasp because I just see it as a natural force.

[JustRish]

But if there is a god, then he does not intervene with human life and the laws of the universe, much on the lines of what Deists believe.

[theist]

 

Tough question. You gave me new ways of looking at it thanks.

 

I believe that the universe (nature) gave birth to our planet. It was a natural force. But did this planet involve intelligent design? This is what I find hard to understand. I also find it hard to believe that the universe has feeling.

 

When I say nature I include animals, people and plants. I also include the universe and the planet. I believe people, animals and planets have intelligence. But this intelligence is misused mostly by people. They are set out to destroy this planet. The earth, however, is kind and so is the universe and can bear this weight, but for how long? Does the universe have intelligence? I find that difficult to grasp.

 

Yes it is tough to grasp. In fact it is positively mindblowing and we are really way too small to take it in. I am also speaking of universal intelligence.

 

The complexity of a simple cell is beyond our grasp what to speak of the intelligence it takes for the entire cosmos to work harmoniously. Leaving aside the question of God or not for a moment let us decide on this point of intelligent design.

 

So much intelligence went into forming this computer and the internet. It would be ludicrous to say that it just appeared from nothing one day. There is intelligent design everywhere in human society. Even the formation of a simple pencil takes intelligence. So considering this how could we deny the intelligence that went into making the tree that the pencil was taken from?

 

When we recognize the intelligence in the tree then we must expand it it. How could there be a tree without the sun water and soil? So there must be intelligence in them also and how they are all working harmoniously to produce the tree.

 

In this way by seeing the interconnectedness of all living systems on earth and throughout the cosmos we can come to sense and appreciate the One Supreme Intelligence behind all material manifestation.

 

I believe this is an advanced level of pantheism. That is to accept an intelligent nature as God.

 

What do you think?

[theist]

 

But if there is a god, then he does not intervene with human life and the laws of the universe, much on the lines of what Deists believe.

 

That is one belief. There is another similar view that says He while creating the laws of of the universe remains neutral in how those laws are play out. Like fire burns the sinner and saint equally without partiality.

 

There is some truth to the Deist view but it may not hold the whole picture.

[JustRish]

 

 

In this way by seeing the interconnectedness of all living systems on earth and throughout the cosmos we can come to sense and appreciate the One Supreme Intelligence behind all material manifestation.

 

I believe this is an advanced level of pantheism. That is to accept an intelligent nature as God.

 

What do you think?

Another new ways of looking at it. I never thought about it as deeply as this but I do agree with a lot of what you said. Thank you. Boy am I glad I asked this question. . I think I am sounding really confused. I apologise for giving out mixed messages because I am actually confused lol.

[theist]

 

Another new ways of looking at it. I never thought about it as deeply as this but I do agree with a lot of what you said. Thank you. Boy am I glad I asked this question. . I think I am sounding really confused. I apologise for giving out mixed messages because I am actually confused lol.

When you brought up the subject of God you brought up a deep question. Everyone is confused JustRish, without exception. We live in a world where no one except the most rare being even knows who they really are. The human form of life has een designed as a vehicle for asking just these questions like who am I", "Is there a God". So you sound like a human being asking the right questions. The same ones we are all asking and seeking claifications on. You found the right forum.

 

When we start to get a feel for a universal Intelligence behind the design of nature and dwelling within nature there is another step we that we naturally take.

 

If this Supreme Intelligence is within all of nature from the most distant star down to the atoms in my houseplant then that Intelligence must also be within me. Afterall we hmans are just as much a part of nature as anything else in the universe.

 

I mean I am in my own body but I don't even know how my food digests and how the body repairs itself apart from a couple of thoings I remember from a biology book or two. So I must acknowledge the presence of a superior intelligence that is controlling all my bodily processes from breathing down to cell divison and the passing on of the DNA code. I surely am not aware of this stuff going on.

 

At this point we have a glimpse of God in nature and ourselves. We may not even be comfortable with the word God because of all the baggage various religions have tied onto the word God so the word God is not so important but we have a glimpse of God nonetheless.

 

Then another question may arise. "Is this Supreme Intelligence conscious of me and what a think and feel or is it just an impersonal force?"

 

I would say that this intelligence must be super conscious because of infinite complexities, the unlimited detailed interactions that are needed to be controlled at every moment. It takes intelligence to set the protons spinning in such and such a rate around the nuetrons. The planets orbits around the sun. All these things take individual planning.

 

So if we can at least theorhetorically acept that there is a Supreme Conscious Intelligence dwelling within us who is aware of us as an individual

then it stands to reason that we can communicate with that Intelligence and that Intelligence can respond to me and make His presence known to me directly.

 

This is a simple and logical way to develop pantheism to it's fullest and purest form which is theism. Pantheism is not incorrect it is just incomplete.

[Baobabtree]

 

Even murderers are compassionate to some people. Doesn't make them saints.

A murderer actually harms people, and takes away their lives. How is not being able to understand, or believe in God even comparable to that?

 

 

Yes it is tough to grasp. In fact it is positively mindblowing and we are really way too small to take it in. I am also speaking of universal intelligence.

 

The complexity of a simple cell is beyond our grasp what to speak of the intelligence it takes for the entire cosmos to work harmoniously. Leaving aside the question of God or not for a moment let us decide on this point of intelligent design.

 

So much intelligence went into forming this computer and the internet. It would be ludicrous to say that it just appeared from nothing one day. There is intelligent design everywhere in human society. Even the formation of a simple pencil takes intelligence. So considering this how could we deny the intelligence that went into making the tree that the pencil was taken from?

 

When we recognize the intelligence in the tree then we must expand it it. How could there be a tree without the sun water and soil? So there must be intelligence in them also and how they are all working harmoniously to produce the tree.

 

In this way by seeing the interconnectedness of all living systems on earth and throughout the cosmos we can come to sense and appreciate the One Supreme Intelligence behind all material manifestation.

 

I believe this is an advanced level of pantheism. That is to accept an intelligent nature as God.

 

What do you think?

I'd give you some positive rep for that, but I have to spread my reps around a bit, before I can give you anymore (sorry for the negative rep I gave you earlier, seeing this post tellls me you honestly didn't deserve that). This was exactly the stuff that initially reaffirmed my own faith in God way back when.

[indulekhadasi]

 

A murderer actually harms people, and takes away their lives. How is not being able to understand, or believe in God even comparable to that?

 

 

 

An atheist is simply murdering his/her own self by not establishing a relationship with the Supreme Lord. His/her life simply goes to waste and therefore it can be equlivalent to murder. A regular murderer murders the body while an an atheist murders the soul. What is the difference?

[JustRish]

First of all, Mr theist, I really appreciate you for helping me to try and understand. Its amazing how much opinions can change when you finally find someone who understands what you're going through without sticking an insult in it. I am definitely going to do some more research into this. I realize that there is more to life that I thought.. But as for ….

 

 

An atheist is simply murdering his/her own self by not establishing a relationship with the Supreme Lord. His/her life simply goes to waste and therefore it can be equlivalent to murder. A regular murderer murders the body while an an atheist murders the soul. What is the difference?

 

Atheists cannot establish a relationship with a Supreme Lord because they are not at your level of understanding. My ability to grasp what you can grasp is different. I've been called retarded with a learning disability because of it. I don't know how people can find happiness by ridiculing others. Can animals establish a relationship with the supreme lord? If you say no you're saying they've murdered their own soul too. Most religious texts say animals have no soul, which I don't believe. They feel pain too, both physical and psycological. I believe there is a soul in every living thing. Even plants have souls, except they do not feel pain or do they?

 

And Murders the soul in what way? Non-violence should be practiced in thought, word and deed. So insulting someone is violence on its own. You kill a persons soul bit by bit by hurting and insulting it. When you murder the body the soul suffers no more after that. That is the difference between a dead body and a living person.

 

When you tell someone you don’t understand something, do you expect to be insulted? After you’ve been insulted, would you want to understand? I know I wouldn’t because that person would have killed a part of my soul that trusted that person. I would feel that a part of my soul has been murdered. I don’t ridicule those who believe, and I also expect the same decency from people who do believe. And if there is a conscious god, I doubt he would want his followers to insult or hurt anyone for any reason because by hurting someone you are hurting him. Does he feel happy when people are hurt?

And this is only my opinion of course. You're opinion is just as relevant if you want it to be. And no, I am not a saint, just a regular human being trying to understand her place in this world.

[theist]

JustRich, no mister I'm just a theist. I do understand. I have no religious background and grew up an atheist. Then some of these things just started opening up for me and i have spent my entire life struggling to get things straight.

 

What helped me the most was realizing I didn't have to fit into anyone's premade religious mold. Im not a hindu christian muslim buddhist or anything else,I am just me and if God is real He can reveal Himself to me. And if He can help me then He can and will help anyone.

 

"Seek and we shall find."

[JustRish]

 

JustRich, no mister I'm just a theist. I do understand. I have no religious background and grew up an atheist. Then some of these things just started opening up for me and i have spent my entire life struggling to get things straight.

 

What helped me the most was realizing I didn't have to fit into anyone's premade religious mold. Im not a hindu christian muslim buddhist or anything else,I am just me and if God is real He can reveal Himself to me. And if He can help me then He can and will help anyone.

 

"Seek and we shall find."

 

Okay theist . My parents do believe in god, but most Jains whom I associate with do not. Most Jains are atheists in case you didn't know. Jainism does have concept of soul, reincarnation and god (enlightened beings) but this concept of god as the creator is missing. So many of my beliefs inititally came from here. So you can see where my struggle comes from.

[shiva]

 

I know what many believers think. Atheists are evil. Atheists are fools. No believer should waste time with atheists. I see this on the internet a lot. But I have tried so hard. I have educated myself on scriptures (the Bhagyavad Gita mainly). But something is not working. I can’t get my brain around to think that the universe has been created by a supreme being. Call it “maya” or what not. I don’t understand, and its not as if I haven’t tried to understand.

 

The reason is not rebellion either. I come from a Jain family. I respect our gurus (especially Mahavir) and do pray to them. But not as a supreme being who created this universe. I am also interested in Buddhism.

 

 

This is my view of God and this is the conclusion I have arrived at: nature is god and god is nature. So yes, I am pantheist. And surprise! I believe in souls, I believe in reincarnation too. But I just cannot get my head around to believe there is a supreme being who created the earth. I believe nature was responsible for creating earth and thus I believe nature is god. Plants, grass, animals, etc are part of nature and thus I see them as god.

 

But why is there so much negative views about atheists as if we are evil fools? Has anyone even tried to understand an atheist?

 

Atheists and all people believe what their karma forces them to believe. Whether you believe in God or not is under the control of God. Your belief in reincarnation is an example of how your beliefs are not under your control. In order for reincarnation to take place there would need to be an intelligent overseer with the ability to make reincarnation happen. Yet you believe that there is no such intelligent overseer yet still believe in reincarnation. This shows how people will believe illogical things to be logical and logical things to be illogical. Even when proven to them that their beliefs are without rationality people will believe what their karma dictates, which is controlled by God. The evolutionists are another example of this principle. Evolutionary theory is based upon a huge number of mathematically impossible (so improbable as to be impossible) events taking place one and after another (origin of life for starters), yet even though it can be easily proven that life as we know it cannot exist by chance, still because it is their karma, they cannot see the obvious illogical position they hold to be true, as lacking a rational basis. God controls what you believe regardless of the evidence before your eyes.

[JustRish]

 

Atheists and all people believe what their karma forces them to believe. Whether you believe in God or not is under the control of God. Your belief in reincarnation is an example of how your beliefs are not under your control. In order for reincarnation to take place there would need to be an intelligent overseer with the ability to make reincarnation happen. Yet you believe that there is no such intelligent overseer yet still believe in reincarnation. This shows how people will believe illogical things to be logical and logical things to be illogical. Even when proven to them that their beliefs are without rationality people will believe what their karma dictates, which is controlled by God. The evolutionists are another example of this principle. Evolutionary theory is based upon a huge number of mathematically impossible (so improbable as to be impossible) events taking place one and after another (origin of life for starters), yet even though it can be easily proven that life as we know it cannot exist by chance, still because it is their karma, they cannot see the obvious illogical position they hold to be true, as lacking a rational basis. God controls what you believe regardless of the evidence before your eyes.

 

This is new. My Karma is making it difficult for me to understand? Why so? Would God not want me to believe in him? Or perhaps he doesn't want to have anything to do with me until I learn my lessons in this life? Is it a result of bad karma in my previous life? Could be. Who knows ?

 

The reason why I believe in reincarnation is also because I have heard stories, and even heard it from a girl I know that she was reborn. But I never rejected the idea before this.

[indulekhadasi]

 

 

Atheists cannot establish a relationship with a Supreme Lord because they are not at your level of understanding. My ability to grasp what you can grasp is different. I've been called retarded with a learning disability because of it. I don't know how people can find happiness by ridiculing others. Can animals establish a relationship with the supreme lord? If you say no you're saying they've murdered their own soul too. Most religious texts say animals have no soul, which I don't believe. They feel pain too, both physical and psycological. I believe there is a soul in every living thing. Even plants have souls, except they do not feel pain or do they?

 

And Murders the soul in what way? Non-violence should be practiced in thought, word and deed. So insulting someone is violence on its own. You kill a persons soul bit by bit by hurting and insulting it. When you murder the body the soul suffers no more after that. That is the difference between a dead body and a living person.

 

When you tell someone you don’t understand something, do you expect to be insulted? After you’ve been insulted, would you want to understand? I know I wouldn’t because that person would have killed a part of my soul that trusted that person. I would feel that a part of my soul has been murdered. I don’t ridicule those who believe, and I also expect the same decency from people who do believe. And if there is a conscious god, I doubt he would want his followers to insult or hurt anyone for any reason because by hurting someone you are hurting him. Does he feel happy when people are hurt?

 

And this is only my opinion of course. You're opinion is just as relevant if you want it to be. And no, I am not a saint, just a regular human being trying to understand her place in this world. <?xml:namespace prefix = o />

 

I can see you are quite intelligent for you have understood that animals do have souls. Animals can take part in Krishna consciousness by honoring prasadam (food that has been offered to the Lord). In some special circumstances, they even listen to discourses about the Lord. Parrots can even chant the Holy Name. By doing all this animals can recieve a human birth in their next life where they can advance in Krishna consciousness.

 

Actually there is no question about the relationship with the Lord. It is already there. But some people do not wish to recognize it or they are ashamed of it. Imagine not wanting to recognize that you are the son of your father or you are ashamed that you are your father's son. It is just like that. That is what atheists do.

 

I can see you are sincerely trying to understand our philosophy and look at both types of things. This is very good. I wouldn't even call you an atheist because you are sincerely inquiring- one of the first stages of theism.

 

Please forgive me for any offenses,

indulekhadasi

[Sunds]

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: navbar_link --> Are atheists fools?

 

Yes.

[LoveroftheBhagavata]

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: navbar_link -->Are atheists fools?

 

Yes.

 

Then the Buddha was an idiot, right? Is that what you mean?

[Shivaduta]

Only a fool will

breathe air and not believe in it

drink water and not believe in it

feel love and not believe in it

experience god and yet refuse to believe...

even intellignet atheists keep their mind open to the possibility of a god...

[vmsunder]

When u sleep, u dont have any proof of your existence ever untill u wake up, this wake up stage does not have any proof when u r asleep, while in dream u believe that the dream is real.

 

So, one avasta disprooves the existence of the other two, Fact remains the same whatever be the stage of avasta, like drama and settings may change but the stage remains.

 

Just read Ramana Maharishis discourses that may give u clarity.

 

On nature - God is called, infact in Vedas worship god as five elements of nature, Shiva is worshipped as Five elements of nature. so, nature is God, nature is Shiva.

 

To negate Shiva is like nagating our Soul, for Jiva and Shiva are not dual. Ones life,soul is Siva only. The word Jeeva has come from Siva only.

"Seevan enna sivan enna verilai, seevanaar sivanarai arigilar,

Seevanar sivanaarai aridhapin, seevanaar sivanai vittiruppare"

 

Thus goes one Siddhars verse, meaning - Soul (seevan in Tamil) and Sivan are not two different things, the maya covering the soul hides the light of the soul, once the maya is conquered, there is no duality - only the soul is seen thru the sheath of Maya - our body-mind all becomes Shiva then.

 

Just ask Who You are, are you the body, look at the statement Ram passed away, if Ram is the body, where is the question of passing away, if not, then who has passed away - soul. So, the name Ram is not for the body but for the soul living in it. It takes several births and carries innumerable names, it is neither male nor female - Ardhanaree (Siva). It is everything.

 

Jivan is Sivan only

 

Sivoham Sivoham

[JustRish]

 

I can see you are sincerely trying to understand our philosophy and look at both types of things. This is very good. I wouldn't even call you an atheist because you are sincerely inquiring- one of the first stages of theism.

 

Please forgive me for any offenses,

indulekhadasi

You were actually one of the least of the offensive I have come across. I only get offended when someone comes out with remarks such as retarded or mental or deluded, and then when I try to explain they come back with the same response. Thank you for at least trying to understand. It's an attitude that actually makes one want to learn.

 

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: navbar_link --> Are atheists fools?

 

Yes.

Next time you meet an atheist try to show the compassion god gave you. Who knows, may be they might feel the love of your Lord shining through you.

 

 

Then the Buddha was an idiot, right? Is that what you mean?

Buddha was the 9th incarnation of Vishnu sent down to earth for the atheists wasn't he? I think. I hear he was a trick to get people to believe in God without them knowing. If this is correct, I think it is very clever. Not sure about Mahavir (Jainism). But it's a little ignorant to call them a fool.

 

 

Only a fool will

breathe air and not believe in it

drink water and not believe in it

feel love and not believe in it

experience god and yet refuse to believe...

even intellignet atheists keep their mind open to the possibility of a god...

 

Most atheists I've know were agnostic atheists. It's a little stupid, and most think so too, to deny it completely.

[LoveroftheBhagavata]

 

Buddha was the 9th incarnation of Vishnu sent down to earth for the atheists wasn't he? I think. I hear he was a trick to get people to believe in God without them knowing. If this is correct, I think it is very clever. Not sure about Mahavir (Jainism). But it's a little ignorant to call them a fool.

 

The theory that Buddha is a Vishnu avatar was a ploy by Vaishnavas to prevent people from converting to Buddhism. Otherwise, Buddhist philosophy is essentially atheism, and as far as I can see, is one of the most developed and convincing schools of thought in existence. The Buddha was an extremely perceptive individual, and I reiterate my respect of atheists, agnostics, theists and impersonalists alike.

[LoveroftheBhagavata]

 

Otherwise, Buddhist philosophy is essentially atheism, and as far as I can see, is one of the most developed and convincing schools of thought in existence.

 

This said, I am myself a strong, deep believer in a God (personal-cum-impersonal) who pulls the karmic strings and in that, I am widely at variance with what was taught by the Buddha. However, I'm not prevented by this from acknowledging and appreciating the greatness and validity of much of Buddhism, and I'd much rather see people take to the wonderful road that it is than spend their lives hopelessly entangled in mundane affairs.

 

Om tat sat