JustRish Posted March 16, 2008 Report Share Posted March 16, 2008 Is it really? Or Vishu's dream? Please explain this to me. I read a post about this somewhere (but it was too brief) and I want to know more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted March 16, 2008 Report Share Posted March 16, 2008 It is both in a sense but ultimately Vishnu's dream. Within Vishnu's dream there are said to be countless Brahma's one for each universe which are innummerable but they all have their place in Vishnu's mind. Sarvah Gattah has made many nice posts explaining the creation phenomena as dream. Run a search his name and the word dream and much will come up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustRish Posted March 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 It is both in a sense but ultimately Vishnu's dream. Within Vishnu's dream there are said to be countless Brahma's one for each universe which are innummerable but they all have their place in Vishnu's mind. Sarvah Gattah has made many nice posts explaining the creation phenomena as dream. Run a search his name and the word dream and much will come up. I think it is amazing. It's made me question: Am I real? is everyone real:eek:? Isn't that weird? That is a scary thought. But I cannot find any trace of Survah Gattah? Perhaps this is a mispelling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AncientMariner Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 I think it is amazing. It's made me question: Am I real? is everyone real:eek:? Isn't that weird? That is a scary thought. My understanding of Srimad Bhagavatam is that basically the jivas are only real in that they have a relationship to the Lord. That is what makes us real. As far as the material world basically everyone embodied in material existence and conditioned by material nature are living like ghosts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustRish Posted March 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 My understanding of Srimad Bhagavatam is that basically the jivas are only real in that they have a relationship to the Lord. That is what makes us real. As far as the material world basically everyone embodied in material existence and conditioned by material nature are living like ghosts. Interesting. You mean like a bhatakti atman (which is like me, kind of)? With a bit more understanding may be this may change Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 I think it is amazing. It's made me question: Am I real? is everyone real:eek:? Isn't that weird? That is a scary thought. But I cannot find any trace of Survah Gattah? Perhaps this is a mispelling? Yeah it's very weird. It needn't be scary though. In fact quite the opposite. It means whatever horror we may be experiencing will surely pass. It is like a child having a nightmare of a monster trying to eat them and is crying out in terror. The parents rush in and awaken the child telling her "Don't worry it was only a bad dream." The monster was not real. The child was never really in danger. This is how it is for us the soul. The soul can never be burned by fire, or cut into pieces, cannot drown etc. as Krishna tells us in the Gita. We are in fact immortal and invulnerable right now. The sad thing is because we are under the spell of this dream condition, illusion or maya we think we are vulnerable and thus experience fear etc. Is there nothing more ironic and sad then for an eternal being to live under the fear of death? This is our present lamentable position. Self realization actually means to awaken to our real natural conditon as parts of the Supreme Lord. Just as the parents awaken the child by sound telling her to "wake up" the Lord awakens us the sleeping, dreaming souls, by the sound vibration of His holy names which actually descend from the spiritual platform and awaken the sleeping souls. Hare Krsna That was Sarvah with an a. Here is a link to one. http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/hare-krishna-discussions/443500-we-simply-dreaming-condition-explains-srila-prabhupada.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarva gattah Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 4.29.83 Srila Prabhupada - "This material creation is the spirit soul's dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Mahā-Viṣṇu, as the Brahma-saḿhitā describes: yaḥ kāraṇārṇava-jalebhajatismayoga-nidrāmananta-jagad-aṇḍa-saroma-kūpaḥ [Bs. 5.47] This material world is created by the dreaming of Mahā-Viṣṇu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation. After being in contact with the material modes of nature, the living entity develops the subtle and gross bodies. When the living entity is fortunate enough to associate with Śrī Nārada Mahāmuni or his servants, he is liberated from this dreamland of material creation and the bodily conception of life". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shivaduta Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 Welcome to the MATRIX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustRish Posted March 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 Yeah it's very weird. It needn't be scary though. In fact quite the opposite. It means whatever horror we may be experiencing will surely pass. It is like a child having a nightmare of a monster trying to eat them and is crying out in terror. The parents rush in and awaken the child telling her "Don't worry it was only a bad dream." The monster was not real. The child was never really in danger. This is how it is for us the soul. The soul can never be burned by fire, or cut into pieces, cannot drown etc. as Krishna tells us in the Gita. We are in fact immortal and invulnerable right now. The sad thing is because we are under the spell of this dream condition, illusion or maya we think we are vulnerable and thus experience fear etc. Is there nothing more ironic and sad then for an eternal being to live under the fear of death? This is our present lamentable position. Self realization actually means to awaken to our real natural conditon as parts of the Supreme Lord. Just as the parents awaken the child by sound telling her to "wake up" the Lord awakens us the sleeping, dreaming souls, by the sound vibration of His holy names which actually descend from the spiritual platform and awaken the sleeping souls. Hare Krsna That was Sarvah with an a. Here is a link to one. http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/hare-krishna-discussions/443500-we-simply-dreaming-condition-explains-srila-prabhupada.html The man himself has arrived with the links I cannot explain how this thought makes me feel in words. It's just odd but the feeling is good. There is a sense of me being protected. I must admit. Perhaps I have every control over my dreams but don't know it? Perhaps those characters in my dreams are like me.. weird. Schizophrenia patients claim to see people we cannot see. I guess those people are really visible to them, and it's strange we cannot see them. May be the person they can see is really there, and the problem is actually us because its us who cannot see. All this thinking can make one go crazy. Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 4.29.83 Srila Prabhupada - "This material creation is the spirit soul's dream. Actually all existence in the material world is a dream of Mahā-Viṣṇu, as the Brahma-saḿhitā describes: yaḥ kāraṇārṇava-jalebhajatismayoga-nidrāmananta-jagad-aṇḍa-saroma-kūpaḥ [Bs. 5.47] This material world is created by the dreaming of Mahā-Viṣṇu. The real, factual platform is the spiritual world, but when the spirit soul wants to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is put into this dreamland of material creation. After being in contact with the material modes of nature, the living entity develops the subtle and gross bodies. When the living entity is fortunate enough to associate with Śrī Nārada Mahāmuni or his servants, he is liberated from this dreamland of material creation and the bodily conception of life". Thank you so much for this, much appreciated. Found it hard to track you down using the search form. Anyway, thank you, thank you thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustRish Posted March 17, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 Welcome to the MATRIX LOL... . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarva gattah Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 Hare Krsna That was Sarvah with an a. Here is a link to one. http://www.indiadivine.org/audarya/hare-krishna-discussions/443500-we-simply-dreaming-condition-explains-srila-prabhupada.html IMPORTANT - The following is the fully correct meaning of Internal, 'tatastha or marginal' and the external energies of the Lord that is not fully explained in the above old post. Srila Prabhupada - "The supreme knowledge of Krsna is exhibited in three different energies - 1. Internal 2. Marginal or Tatastha 3. External. 1. By virtue of His internal energy, He exists in Himself with His spiritual paraphernalia. 2. By means of His marginal energy (tatastha s’akti), He exhibits Himself as the living entities. 3. And by means of His Lifeless external energy, which includes all bodily costumes, He exhibits Himself as material energy. (Also known as the mahat-tattva) The three energies of Lord Krishna are therefore. Superior - Krishna and His unlimited expansions. Within the immensity of Krishna’s perpetual abodes is also where the marginal living entity in their perpetual svarupa form, eternal resides serving Krishna or a Vishnu expansion. Of course the memory of that perpetual world of Krishna-Loka may be covered if they desires to chase their own dreams with the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu, nevertheless, even while dreaming in the mahat-tattva (material creation), their eternal body is everlastingly in Goloka or Vaikuntha serving Krishna or one of His many expansions. It is just like even while one dreams at night they are a King or even being eaten by a tiger; the body they are dreaming from is not effected by such dreams. It is important to understand that even though they are associating with the superior energies of Krishna, they are never one with the superior energy; they always remain marginal or jiva tatastha. Marginal - The living entities or jiva-tatasthas (of whom their full potential is their nitya-siddha body in Goloka) are perpetually independent living entities and eternally have free will to serve Krishna or serve their own desires within the dreams of Maha-Vishnu’s mahat-tattva transitory creation. This means they have the choice to be with Krishna as who they really are (nitya-siddha), or manifest their own imaginary dream world as baddha-jiva in the mahat-tattva. Having choice and independence is what it really means to be in-between the Superior and inferior. One chooses either Krishna's perpetual creation or Maha-Vishnu's temporary DREAM creation. Inferior - The mahat-tattva or lifeless material energies that includes the ethereal and biological vessels or costume bodies the marginal living entities like us, are wearing while outside of our real home with Krishna. Such mahat-tattva vessels are only moved due to the presents of the Us, the living entity. NO living entity originates from the mahat-tattva (inferior energy). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suchandra Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 I think it is amazing. It's made me question: Am I real? is everyone real:eek:? Isn't that weird? That is a scary thought. Make a walk at a graveyard and find out how things are not real in this world - all of us are born and all of us have to die. Already at this point the question might be asked, why am I going to die, is there something else? Now we see so many people resign themselves with this fact, life is temporary but since I have some years to live, there's no other question to be asked, just try to enjoy life. Is this good intelligence? Spiritual life means, I'm an immortal soul, if by spiritual discipline I come to the state of identifying myself with my eternal nature and stop to identify myself with this temporary material body, then this is actual intelligence. Becoming situated in our eternal nature of spiritual bliss and knowledge, breaking free from the cycle of samsara, birth, old age, disease and death. "The spiritual master is there, the scripture is there, and God is there, within you and within me. The atmosphere is calm and quiet, we have a good boat and a good navigator, and the wind is blowing favorably. We should take our chance and cross the ocean. This human body is a very nice boat, and we have a very good navigator, the spiritual master. We also have a very favorable wind—the instructions of God. If we don’t take this opportunity and solve the problems of life, we are cutting our own throat. If you cut your own throat, who can save you? We can say, “Now here is an opportunity. Take it and be saved from birth, old age, disease and death,” but if you don’t take advantage, what can we do? John Nordheimer: Why does all this exist? Why the challenge in the first place? Why māyā? Prabhupāda: Māyā means that you are unfortunate. Here it is light, and there it is darkness. If I tell you to come from the darkness into the light and if you don’t come, that is your misfortune. māyā is there, and God is there. If you want to remain in māyā, then how can you be saved? I can help you by saying, “Don’t remain in darkness. Please come out into the light.” But if you say, “No, I shall remain here,” then how can I save you? You have your choice. God is there, and māyā is there. If you take to māyā you remain in māyā. What can I do, and what can God do? That is your choice. John Nordheimer: Who created māyā, man or God? Prabhupāda: The government may create a prisonhouse, but why do you go there? Does the government invite you there? No, you become a criminal and go there. The prisonhouse is there and the university is there. Why do some people go to prison rather than the university? The government is not partial to people; it does not say, “You live in this university and be educated, and you go to the prison and live there.” It is in the individual’s choice. Similarly, God has created so many things, but it is our duty to follow God’s instructions. God says, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja: [Bg. 18.66] “Just give up all nonsense and surrender unto Me. I shall give you all protection.” That is God’s declaration. Why don’t you take to that? God is all powerful, and He may create so many things for some purpose, but why don’t you follow God’s instructions? God says, “Surrender unto Me,” so why not surrender? Why surrender to māyā? That is the individual’s choice. Another example: the government does not want the youth to become hippies, but they are abandoning a wealthy life just to lie down in the street. In London I’ve seen many boys lying on the street. Why? We Indians may lie on the street because we are poor, but they are not poor, nor the Americans. Why has some of the younger generation accepted this way of life? You have enough food, enough house, enough money, facilities, machines—everything. Why are they accepting this kind of life? John Nordheimer: They reject what they see." Interview with the New York Times by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda September 2, 1972, New Vrindaban Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarva gattah Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 Very good post Suchandra, I would like to further add what Srila Prabhupada has taught us Our attendance in the material world is very, very real. And to each of us, while we are here in the mahat-tattva or material creation, it is NOT a dream state, we do NOT experience the material world as a dream state WHILE WE ARE HERE, try to understand it is very real, in fact the mahat-tattva is as real as being in Vaikuntha however, we experience everything in the mahat-tattva as temporary. It is important to understand the kind of non Krishna Conscious dream the living entity has, that places one’s consciousness in the material creation, is often compared to the dream one has in their present body while dreaming then again, it is crucial to understand that on the Absolute level, unlike the mundane biological level, one’s dreams are real and this means that Maha-Vishnu’s dreams and the dreams of the living entity who enters His Maha-tattva dreaming creation, ARE VERY REAL TO THEM. The reason why these dreams are called illusion in comparison to Vaikuntha and Goloka, is because the ‘realism dream state in the mahat-tattva’ eventually fades. This is important to understand. This bonafide concept should never be related to mundane Movies like the Matrix, its not like that, the material world is very real, but decays, fades, wethers away. The reality of Krishna’s eternal Kingdom is perpetual, imperishable everlasting. 1. Vaikuntha and Goloka is reality that is imperishable 2. The mahat-tattva is reality that is perishable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suchandra Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 Very good post Suchandra, I would like to further add what Srila Prabhupada has taught us Our attendance in the material world is very, very real. And to each of us, while we are here in the mahat-tattva or material creation, it is NOT a dream state, we do NOT experience the material world as a dream state WHILE WE ARE HERE, try to understand it is very real, in fact the mahat-tattva is as real as being in Vaikuntha however, we experience everything in the mahat-tattva as temporary. It is important to understand the kind of non Krishna Conscious dream the living entity has, that places one’s consciousness in the material creation, is often compared to the dream one has in their present body while dreaming then again, it is crucial to understand that on the Absolute level, unlike the mundane biological level, one’s dreams are real and this means that Maha-Vishnu’s dreams and the dreams of the living entity who enters His Maha-tattva dreaming creation, ARE VERY REAL TO THEM. The reason why these dreams are called illusion in comparison to Vaikuntha and Goloka, is because the ‘realism dream state in the mahat-tattva’ eventually fades. This is important to understand. This bonafide concept should never be related to mundane Movies like the Matrix, its not like that, the material world is very real, but decays, fades, wethers away. The reality of Krishna’s eternal Kingdom is perpetual, imperishable everlasting. 1. Vaikuntha and Goloka is reality that is imperishable 2. The mahat-tattva is reality that is perishable Good points Sarva gattah prabhu, you say we do not experience our stay in this material world as a dream. This might be true. Same like when we dream at night that we see our friends in a different environment - it is a dream only, but while dreaming are we actually conscious that it is only a dream? Sometimes dreams can be so real that when waking up one starts to reflect upon that dream if there's some truth to it and what it could have meant. So, if we don't experience a dream as a dream while dreaming, could be a different reason, something like that the illusory energy is very powerful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 To the Honorable Member BY: CHITRAKETU DASA Mar 16, UK (SUN) — A reply to " A Playful Fall ". I don’t think that Krishna’s all-attractiveness is moot. Once within the compass of Krishna’s gravitational field, there is no question of escape. This is practical. If you wish to peruse a publication that deals extensively with this issue, please read Satya-Narayana and Kundali’s well researched book “ In Vaikuntha Not Even the Leaves Fall .” I believe this book is banned from ISKCON’s essential reading list, probably because it’s too philosophical. No doubt the authors have been black-listed and their characters thoroughly assassinated by now; however the book itself contains extensive quotes from such notables as Jiva Goswami, Bhaktivinoda Thakur and others whom I’m sure you’ve heard of. Subtly calling into question my allegiance to Srila Prabhupada, dear Honorable Member, is not within your purview, since dedicated to Srila Prabhupada I have been unflinchingly since 1973. I request you to be more respectful. On the question itself, if Srila Prabhupada says two different things and you are prepared to accept Prabhupada’s authority on it and only his authority, then you are constrained to accept both statements as being correct, not plump for one of them, in this case the one that is not corroborated by previous acharyas or sastra, thereby taking the “sadhu” and “sastra” part out of the by now familiar “guru”, “sadhu”, “sastra” evidential trio. With regard to the “Back to Godhead” argument, the jiva undoubtedly comes from Krishna and goes back to Krishna, but it does not come from fully manifest lila; this is evident, and from the view point of “sastra” and “sadhu”, it is unquestionable. I don’t believe that Srila Prabhupada was ambiguous, just evasive, like the present GBC, unwilling perhaps to address the question in depth, which he did not do. If you take a handful of evasive remarks and make a whole philosophy out of it, you are making a mistake. Srila Prabhupada didn’t want to address the issue in-depth, he merely wanted to establish clearly that the jiva always has free will. To those who are a little perceptive, this is obvious. Srila Prabhupada is a person, after all, not everything he says at all times under all circumstances is to be taken as the absolute word of God. Srila Prabhupada gave us the formula for understanding, which is the trio mentioned above. Even if Srila Prabhupada himself appears to say something that lands outside of this evidentiary compound, it should be rejected as circumstantial. This is clear thinking, and does not go outside of Srila Prabhupada’s teachings. With the whole Ritvik issue, ISKCON has chosen to follow precedent rather than accept what the Ritviks call a circumstantial adjustment. Why does ISKCON, or should I say the GBC, not do the same in this case? No, I don’t understand how the jiva, in such a blissful situation as residing in Vrndavana, can become envious and depart that realm. I don’t understand it, and I don’t accept it, and the idea of a playful fall is plainly stupid. I suppose the Second World War was a transcendental joke. RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarva gattah Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 Read Prabhupada books Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 4.29.83 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 (CHITRAKETU DASA) No, I don’t understand how the jiva, in such a blissful situation as residing in Vrndavana, can become envious and depart that realm. Even within ISKCON it seems that about a third of the devotees believe that the jiva falls from Vaikuntha, about a third believes that the jiva falls from the brahmajyoti and about a third are undecided. Despite the on-going debate these per centages and divisions seem fairly constant with very, very few changing their position. All sides in the debate claim that Srila Prabhupada is their authority, but the Fall and Dreamer advocates tend to wrap themselves in the flag of supposed loyalty to Srila Prabhupada and either covertly or overtly allege that the other side is somehow disloyal. One of their ploys is to claim that those who believe in the tatastha origins (brahmajyoti) are somehow impersonalist. But the contradiction is that they also use this srategy against non-ISKCON acaryas who tend to give more detailed information about Krsna's "personal" pastimes. Then, when they hear about such detailed personal descriptions they then make the charge of sahjiyaism. Why would those who are more concerned with the actual pastimes of Krsna be impersonalist because they accept the tatastha origin of soul, while those fall and sleepervadis, who claim to be personalists, have very little interest or understanding of Krsna's pastimes? Isn't that a strange contradiction? And isn't it indeed a major Vaisnava aparadha to claim that those who are strongly fixed in the concept that to serve Krsna in His pastimes with full prema are actually Mayavadis? And what will be the result? One can only assume by simple logic that those who take that unhappy path will be barred from further attraction to the pastimes of the Lord. There but for the grace of God go I. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suchandra Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 Srila Prabhupada is a person, after all, not everything he says at all times under all circumstances is to be taken as the absolute word of God. This doesn't read like Vaishnava wording. In fact it says, guru mukha padma vakya is sometimes the product of the four defects of material illusion. If a topic is not explained in such a way that we fully understand, there is yet another option. It is not explained because when getting in the wrong hands it's detrimental for let's say to newcomers. Something like when karmis hear rasa-lila. The acaryas don't explain confidential knowledge like rasa-lila to conditioned souls. Let's say when a jiva falls into this material world from where and why exactly remains to be seen, but in Vaikuntha this fall is perceived as something like closing your eyes for two seconds, why anyone would preach this? If Prabhupada would have told, our stopover in the material world is for other residents in Vaikuntha overlooked because according their cognition it is just like one breath, why should he explain this? In other words, it is not explained because it is not helpful for us conditioned souls to hear. <embed src="http://krishna.terapad.com/resources/3490/assets/videos/gokul.swf" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" height="1" width="1"> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarva gattah Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 The following quotations conclusively establish that the origin of the living entity (jiva) is in the spiritual world of Goloka or Vaikuntha as opposed to the impersonal dormant Brahmajyoti In other words, ALL of us have come down to the mahat-tattva material world from Vaikuntha or Goloka as Srila Prabhupada CLEARY explains - Srila Prabhupada - We have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago. Anadi karama-phale. Anadi means before the creation. We living entities, we are eternal. (Lecture on Bhagavad-gita 2.6 -- London, August 6, 1973) Srila Prabhupada – “Existence in the impersonal Brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the Brahman effulgence, they are also in the fallen condition. So there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. - Letter, June 13, 1970 Srila Prabhupada - "As living spiritual souls we are all originally Krsna conscious entities, but due to our association with matter from time immemorial, our consciousness has now become polluted by the material atmosphere." (Original Hare Krsna album) Srila Prabhupada - "As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Srila Prabhupada - "Formerly, we were with Krsna in His lila or sport. Srila Prabhupada - "But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration-therefore, many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time, it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But this long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Srila Prabhupada - "This Brahma-sayujya mukti is non-permanent. Every living entity wants pleasure, but Brahma-sayujya is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss. Srila Prabhupada - "Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only to Brahma-sayujya but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the Lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness, this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming. Srila Prabhupada - "Because he falls down from Brahma sayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even, he was with Krsna. (The origin of the jiva: Brahmajyoti or Krishna Lila? - Australian conversation with Srila Prabhupada Transcribed as Nectar of the Month, BBT Report, January, 1982) Srila Prabhupada - "The conditioned living being has forgotten his eternal relationship with God and he has mistakenly accepted the temporary place of birth as all-in-all... The living entities are not without spiritual senses; every living being in his original, spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes. (Sri Isopanisad 11 Purport) Svarupa Damodara: The spirit soul must necessarily have a body, either spiritual or material. Prabhupada: He has got already spiritual body. Material body is his covering. It is unnatural. Real body is spiritual. Just like your coat, this is unnatural. But your real body is natural. Otherwise how transmigration is possible? I am accepting different unnatural bodies. Unnatural means to my constitution. My real constitutional body is servant of Krsna. So, so long I do not come to that position, I remain servant of nature and I get so many bodies. . . . . . . . Paramahamsa: But ultimately if we come to Krsna, there’s no return. But nevertheless, Jagai, and..., the two gatekeepers, they returned? Prabhupada: There is return, that is voluntary. Return there is. Paramahamsa: If we want. Prabhupada: Yes. Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return? Prabhupada: Yes. Paramahamsa: Fall down? Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, "Oh, this material world is very nice,Yes," Krsna says, "yes, you go." Just like nobody is interested in Krsna consciousness. Do you think everyone is interested? So. They want to enjoy this material world. Otherwise what is the meaning of free will? Every living entity has got a little free will. And Krsna is so kind, He gives him opportunity, "All right, you enjoy like this." Just like some of our students, Krsna conscious, sometimes go away, again come back. It is free will, not stereotyped. Just like one goes to the prison house, not that government welcomes, "Come on. We have got prison house. Come here, come here." He goes out of his free will; again comes out, again goes. Like that. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare, nikata-stha maya tare japatiya dhare. The police is there. Just like the police car was there. We have nothing to do with it. But if you do anything criminal, immediately you will be arrested, under police custody. The maya may be there, but maya captures him who is not a devotee of Krsna. That’s all. Therefore, mam eva ye prapadyante mayam etam taranti te: "Anyone who surrenders unto Me, maya does not interfere anymore." Paramahamsa: So our desire to enjoy, we achieve these bodies; and our desire to achieve Krsna brings us to our natural position. Prabhupada: Yes. (Morning Walk At Cheviot Hills Golf Course--May 13, 1973, Los Angeles) This attachment of the devotee to a particular form of the Lord is due to natural inclination. Each and every living entity is originally attached to a particular type of transcendental service because he is eternally the servitor of the Lord. Lord Caitanya says that the living entity is eternally the servitor of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Sri Krsna, therefore, every living entity has a particular type of service relationship with the Lord, eternally. (SB3.9.11 Purport) We have to learn how to act only for Krsna, how to love only Krsna. Then our life is successful. And the human life... Because we have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago. Anadi karama-phale. Anadi means before the creation. We living entities, we are eternal. (Lecture on Bhagavad-gita 2.6 -- London, August 6, 1973) These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha, but in these material worlds, they are taking various grades of bodies. - Letter, July 9, 1970 . . . if he is properly guided, then he is very easily sent back to home, back to Godhead wherefrom originally he fell down." - Letter, January 20, 1971 . . . we may fall down from Vaikuntha at any moment . . . so even in the Vaikuntha, if I desire that 'Why shall I serve Krsna? Why not become Krsna?' I immediately fall down." - Lecture in Honolulu, July 4, 1974 He is fallen already from Vaikuntha planet. He is fallen in this material world, and he is again trying to make progress." - Bhagavatam lecture in Los Angeles, June 15, 1972 We are all originally situated on the platform of Krsna consciousness in our eternal personal relationship of love of Krsna. - Letter, November 17, 1970. (H)e has fallen means he has given up the service of Krsna. - Lecture in Tokyo, April 20, 1972. (L)ittle independence, we can misuse that. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare: that misuse is the cause of our falldown. - Room conversation in Mayapur, February 19, 1976. After all, the living entity falls down from the spiritual world. Just like Jaya-Vijaya. There is possibility . . .even if you are in Vaikuntha, you will fall down, what to speak of this material world". - Bhagavad-gita lecture of July 4, 1974 Therefore, if we practice devotional service . . . we will be reinstated in our original, constitutional position and thus be saved." - Purport to Srimad Bhagavatam 10.2.39 TRANSLATION Only the purified soul can attain the perfection of associating with the Personality of Godhead in complete bliss and satisfaction in his constitutional state. Whoever is able to renovate such devotional perfection is never again attracted by this material world, and he never returns. (SB 2.2.31) When the pure soul wants to give up the Lord’s service to enjoy the material world, Krsna certainly gives him a chance to enter the material world. As stated in the prema-vivarta: krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare. This is the reason the pure spirit soul falls down to the material world. (SB 5.14 Chapter Summary) We are servant of Krsna. But somehow or other, we revolted. Still we are revolting. Although Krsna coming and canvassing, "Just surrender unto Me," but still we are revolting. This is our disease. Manah sasthanindriyani prakrti-sthani karsati. So if we want to be cured again and come to our original consciousness, Krsna consciousness, which is svacchatvam avikaritvam santatvam iti cetasah, then we have to take to this Krsna consciousness. That is the only way. (Lecture on Srimad-Bhagavatam 3.26.23-4--Bombay, January 1, 1975) Bhaktijana: When the souls that were never conditioned at all..., do they also have the independence? Prabhupada: Yes, but they have not misused. They know that "I am meant for Krsna’s service," and they are happy in Krsna’s service. Bhaktijana: Could they ever misuse it? Prabhupada: Yes, they can misuse it also. That power is there. Yes? Devotee: Well, I believe you once said that once a conditioned soul becomes perfected and gets out of the material world and he goes to Krsnaloka, there’s no possibility of falling back. Prabhupada: No! There is possibility, but he does not come. Just like after putting your hand in the fire, you never put it again if you are really intelligent. So those who are going back to Godhead, they become intelligent. Why going back to Godhead? Just like we are in renounced order of life. So we have renounced our family life after thinking something. Now, if somebody comes, "Swamiji, you take thousand millions of dollars and marry again and become a family man," I’ll never become, because I have got my bad experience. I’ll never become. . . . . . . . Bhaktijana: Has my soul ever been liberated? Prabhupada: That you know. I do not know. Bhaktijana: If I was once liberated... Prabhupada: You are liberated. You are liberated. Simply just a cloud has covered you. Drive away the cloud. There is no question that you were ever. You are ever-liberated. That, the sky is always spiritual, but it is sometimes overcrowded with cloud, this maya. This is called maya. Actually, you are not conditioned. You are thinking. Just like in the dream you are thinking that tiger is eating you. You were never eaten by tiger. There is no tiger. So we have to get out of this dream. Don’t you sometimes dream that tiger is eating you? Is there any tiger? You are simply thinking. So if you keep in Krsna consciousness, that nonsense thinking will go away. Therefore we have to keep ourself always in Krsna-thinking so that this dream will never come. If you are always awakened, then dream never comes. So keep yourself always awakened by Krsna consciousness. All right. Distribute prasadam. (end) (Lecture on Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, Adi-lila 7.108--San Francisco, February 18, 1967) Acyutananda: So what made the soul take birth in the first place? Prabhupada: In the first place? Acyutananda: What is the first birth? What is the cause of the first birth. Prabhupada: Yes. That is stated in the Prema-vivarta: krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare nikata-stha maya tare japatiya dhare As soon as... We are eternal servant of Krsna. As soon as we want to become master, that is the beginning of our first birth in the material world. We have got independence. Because, Krsna says, mamaivamso jiva bhutah—we are part and parcel of Krsna—so Krsna has got full independence, but we are minute; therefore we have got minute independence. Our business is to serve Krsna, but as soon as we give up this idea, we want to become master. That is the beginning of our material birth. (Lecture on Srimad-Bhagavatam 5.5.2--Hyderabad, April 11, 1975) Acyutananda: .....But in the Gita, it says, "Once coming there, he never returns." Prabhupada: But if he likes, he can return. Acyutananda: He can return. Prabhupada: That independence has to be accepted, little independence. We can misuse that. Krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga vancha kare. That misuse is the cause of our falldown. Acyutananda: In Krsna book it says that there were some color fighting in Dvaraka. They were throwing color. And some men became lusty seeing the women. So is... Will that be the first part of their falldown, to be in Vaikuntha and think of personal lust with Krsna’s associates? Prabhupada: Yes. (break) Whatever He likes, He’ll do. That is God. God is not meant for satisfying you. (Morning Walk--February 19, 1976, Mayapur) However, because of contact with matter, the imprisoned soul loses the memory of his original spiritual form in Vaikuntha. . . material rasas are perverted reflections of the soul's original spiritual rasas. - Srila Bhaktivinoda Takura, Prema-pradipa, p. 83 It is the jivas who are the attendants in His Sports. They become attached to matter, having deviated from their own essential nature as the result of their desire for enjoyment. But when again the soul . . . gains true wisdom of the transcendental region of God . . . he begins to get back his pure essential nature . . . - Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada, Sri Caitanya's Teachings, p. 323. Then, being bewildered and covered, he is fallen from advaya-vaikuntha. - Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada, Vivritti commentary on Srimad Bhagavatam, 11.2.48 Unless, therefore, one is saved from the wrong conception of the body and the soul, there is no knowledge of Godhead. . . (SB 2.7.42, Purport) Srila Prabhupada – “Existence in the impersonal Brahman is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the Brahman effulgence, they are also in the fallen condition. So there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. - Letter, June 13, 1970 How he is realized soul? If he is speaking something wrong, how he is realized soul? Against the sastra. That is not realized soul. Yah sastra-vidhim utsrjya vartate kama-karatah, na siddhim avapnoti. Sastra reference must be there.- Morning Walk -- April 5, 1974, Bombay Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 A Short Presentation on Jiva-tattva <table align="center" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="620"> <tbody><tr> <td> jiva-tattva index </td> <td>By Swami B. B. Visnu </td> <td> </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table align="center" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="550"> <tbody><tr> <td> The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.) From authoritative sources it can be discerned that associates of Lord Visnu who descend from Vaikuntha do not actually fall. They come with the purpose of fulfilling the desire of the Lord, and their descent to this material world is comparable to that of the Lord.... it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuntha. (Bhag. 7.1.35, purp.) </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table align="center" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="550"> <tbody><tr> <td> [The Spiritual World] contains the highest perfectional stage of living conditions... It is the unalloyed manifestation of the energy of the Lord, without illusion as experienced here in the material world. (Bhag. 2.9.10, purport) </td> </tr> </tbody></table> <table align="center" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="800"> <tbody><tr> <td> Purpose: To present pertinent quotes from sastra, acaryas and our acarya (Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada) on the subject of jiva-tattva in a logical way that shows conclusively that the living entities in the spiritual world do not fall from there. We have purposely avoided making statements or including references which are ambiguous, as they distract the reader from the focus of this paper. The necessity for this paper arises due to the continued misunderstanding of the actual siddhanta on jiva-tattva by a section of devotees. Many illogical statements have been made in defense of the theory that we fall from the Lord's eternal lila. We will show by analysis of rasa-tattva and logic that is is completely impossible and illogical for living entities to fall from the spiritual world. Evidence: All evidence given by all Gaudiya Vaishnava acaryas, sastra, and Vaishnava publications directly states that we do not fall from the spiritual world [either Vaikuntha or Goloka Vrndavana]. When the primary meaning of evidence is clear and coherent there is no necessity to interpret it, as stated by Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu: For each sutra the direct meaning must be accepted without interpretation. However, you simply abandon the direct meaning and proceed with your imaginative interpretation. Although there is other evidence, the evidence given in the Vedic version must be taken as foremost. Vedic versions understood directly are first-class evidence. ( Cc. Madhya-lila 6.134-5, texts) </td> </tr> </tbody></table> No Fall References: The living entities [jivas ] are divided into two categories. Some are eternally liberated, and others are eternally conditioned... [the first are] always awake to Krsna consciousness,... eternal associates.. eternally enjoying the transcendental bliss of serving Krsna. (Cc. Madhya-lila 22.10-11, text) In the spiritual world every living entity is called infallible. (Bg. 15.16, text) Websters New World Dictionary defines "infallible" as: 1- incapable of error, never wrong, 2-not liable to fail, go wrong, make a mistake etc, 3-incapable of error in setting forth doctrine on faith and morals. The third characteristic of Vaikuntha is that one does not fall (Bhag.-sand. 61) Free jivas are never enslaved. (Vaisnavism Real and Apparent, Lecture, Bhaktisiddanta S Thakura ) The nitya-siddha devotees never fall down. (Bhag. 3.3.26, purp.) . . . a devotee in the transcendental abode of the Lord never falls. (Bhag. 3.15.48, purp.) The conclusion [re Jaya-Vijaya] is that no one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.) ... they never fall into the material world. (Bhag. 5.11.12, purp.) From authoritative sources it can be discerned that associates of Lord Visnu who descend from Vaikuntha do not actually fall. They come with the purpose of fulfilling the desire of the Lord, and their descent to this material world is comparable to that of the Lord.... it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuntha. (Bhag. 7.1.35, purp.) The question is that, why the living entity falls down? It is not falls down. Just like Jaya-Vijaya came just to satisfy his master. His master desired fighting, so some of His servant went to the material world and became great enemy." (720405SB.MEL) Nitya-mukta means they never come in this material world. (Bhag. June 19, 1972, Los Angeles) In the spiritual world... inhabitants...They're aksara. They do not fall down. Ksara aksara. We are ksaras. We have fallen down in this material world. But there are devotees in the spiritual world, in the Vaikunthaloka, they never come down. Never come down in this material world, but they are also persons like us, but eternal persons, with full knowledge and life of blissfulness. That is the difference between them and us. (741105SB.BOM) Statements taken as indicating that the origin of all living entities in this material world is by falling from the Lord's lila are obtained thru misinterpretation of secondary indirect statements and not primary direct statements. According to Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, one must consider direct first hand evidence rather than subsidiary indirect statements interpreted according to one's necessity. To introduce ambiguous statements and interpret them distorts the clear meaning of the primary evidence further. The Our Original Position book (OOP's) clouds the issue by presenting inconclusive arguments without answering the many contradictions pointed out in this presentation. Sarvabhauma Battacarya tried to defeat Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu with many false arguments: "The word vitanda indicates that a debater, not touching the main point or establishing his own point, simply tries to refute the other person's argument. When one does not touch the direct meaning but tries to divert attention by misinterpretation, he engages in chala. " ( Cc. Madhya-lila 6.176, purp.) For example, a verse sometimes cited as evidence of falldown is Srimad-Bhagavatam 11.2.37, bhayam dvitiyabhinivesatah syad isad apetasya viparyayo ’smrtih tan-mayayato budha abhajet tam bhaktyaikayesam guru-devatatma When the living entity thus turns away from the Supreme Lord, he also forgets his own constitutional position as a servant of the Lord. This bewildering, fearful condition is effected by the potency for illusion, called maya. This verse does not make any reference to liberated souls nor even to the spiritual world. No acaryas have explained this verse as indicative of falldown from Vaikuntha, indeed this verse states that this condition of turning away from the Lord is brought about by maya, which is not present in Vaikuntha (cf. Bhag 2.9.10: na yatra maya ). Proponents of the "Fall Theory" like to equate statements such as "forgetting Krsna" as synonomous with the assumption that we were with Krsna in the spiritual world and forgot Him. Srila Prabhupada however dispelled this misunderstanding in a letter to Jagadisa Dasa in 1970: Regarding your second question, have the conditioned souls ever seen Krsna? Were they with the Lord before being conditioned by the desire to lord it over material nature? Yes, the conditioned souls are parts and parcels of the Lord and thus they were with Krsna before being conditioned. Just as the child must have seen his father because the father places the child in the womb of the mother, similarly each soul has seen Krsna or the Supreme Father. But at that time the conditioned souls are resting in the condition called susupti which is exactly like deep sleep without dream, or anesthetized state, therefore they do not remember being with Krsna when they wake up in the material world and become engaged in material affairs. The understanding that is presented here very clearly by Srila Prabhupada is much different than that interpreted by some–that we were all originally with the Lord in His lila in the spiritual world. In the purport of this famous Bhag. 11.2.37, krsna bhuli verse (alsoCc. Madhya-lila 20.117) Srila Prabhupada explains the text of this verse, translated as "Forgetting Krsna" as meaning When the living entity forgets his constitutional position as an eternal servant of Krsna. Furthermore, the statements presented above of Srila Prabhupada and other acaryas, directly refuting the fall hypothesis are completely ignored by proponents of this hypothesis without any attempt to reconcile them. Therefore the burden of proof lies with those proposing this fall theory. Additional references are available at: http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/vishnu_mjs/jiva/jiva_1.html Free Will Free choice is an inherent quality of all living entities, yet this quality is greatly misunderstood. As we will show, residents of the spiritual world are blissful and are never forgetful of their eternal position as servitors of the Supreme Lord and therefore will never misuse their free will. All living entities in the spiritual world are on the same transcendental platform. References for this are given later in this presentation. There is no more chance for a jiva to leave the spiritual world than it is possible for Baladeva to give up his relationship with Lord Krsna. A living entity misuses his little independence when he wants to lord it over material nature. This misuse of independence, which is called maya, is always available, otherwise there would not be independence. Independence implies that one can use it properly or improperly. (Bhag. 3.31.15, purp.) The devotees of the Lord do not misuse their freedom. (Bhag. 1.8.23, purp.) The living beings are given as much freedom as they deserve, and misuse of that freedom is the cause of suffering. The devotees of the Lord do not misuse their freedom, and therefore they are the good sons of the Lord. (Bhag. 1.8.28, purp.) A pure devotee of the Lord is so purified in his heart that he cannot leave the shelter of Lord Krsna in any circumstances. There is no self-interest in such service. (Bhag. 2.8.6, purp.) Bhaktijana: When the souls that were never conditioned at all..., do they also have the independence? Prabhupada: Yes, but they have not misused. They know that "I am meant for Krsna's service," and they are happy in Krsna's service. (670218CC.SF) Krsna says He has given free will, but His personal advice is: "I am now talking to you the most confidential words." Sarva-guhyatamam. "You stop your so-called free will. Just surrender to Me." This is the most confidential. "If you surrender to Me, that is good for you. But if you go on keeping your free will you'll not be happy." (731213mw.la) In the ISKCON GBC Position booklet (OOPs p. 194) it is stated that the residents of the spiritual world have the free will to leave, as a crazy man has the free will to jump off the roof. In this booklet they state that these residents are indeed crazy (bewildered) when they leave. This explanation is very insubstantial and misleading. In the material world we always have the choice between matter and spirit but in the spiritual world there is no matter so one will not and cannot choose matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 The living entity enmeshed in maya sees no viable choice besides maya, in the sense that he is attached and thinks that this life of maya is in his best interest. Although he has the free choice to choose spiritual life, he sees this as a threat to his sense gratification and therefore undesirable. In the spiritual world however, the living entity, fully absorbed and overwhelmed with ecstatic love, cannot bear the thought of doing anything averse to the Lord's interest—seeing this as a threat to his continued absorption in pure loving ecstatic devotional service—his very life. In the spiritual world, all the living entities are fully self-realized. As shown below in section 6a, they have fully realized the conclusions of sastra—that they are an eternal servant of the Lord, and they are fully experiencing their realizations of eternal blissfulness. It is not that they know every last detail of sastra. For example, some of the gopis were previously the Personified Vedas. Although as gopis, they are celebrated as exhibiting the highest standard of devotion and are recognized as such by Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu—ramya kacit upasana vraja-vadhu-vargena, they had almost no knowledge of the Vedas, and state as much in their wonderful prayers upon meeting their beloved Krsna after so long at Kuruksetra. (Bhag. 10.82.48) Yet we should not agree with them that they are ordinary girls simply engaged in household affairs. They are the personification of the Vedas, absorbed in the highest mellows of devotion—krsna-prema. Thesis The source of the dispute over the siddhanta regarding the origin of the jiva stems from the fact that vast amounts of devotees are not well read in the Goswami's literatures, have not understood their conclusions properly and thus do not properly know the siddhanta. A lack of proper understanding or appreciation of the most dear associates of the Lord is shown, for instance, by those who try to equate the appearance of the pure devotee Tulasi-devi in this material world as synonomous with that of ordinary conditioned jivas. ... tulasi is given special preference by the Lord. (Bhag. 3.15.19, text) Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura explains... Urja is [the Lord's] internal potency for performing pastimes; she expands as the tulasi plant in this world. (Bhag. 10.39.53-5, purp.) Tulasi Devi never goes back to Godhead, she is always with Godhead. She is a pure devotee and thus she has appeared on this planet to render service to Krsna by being offered in all temples throughout the world, by being offered up to the lotus feet of Krsna. (SP Ltr Radhavallabha: 6 January, 1972) Yes, Sri Tulasi is the eternal consort of Krsna, and the most pure devotee, and therefore, the Tulasi plant is worshipped by Vaisnavas. (SP Ltr Balai: 22 March, 1968) Sastra says, "Tulasi is the greatest devotee of Krsna." We have to accept, that's all. Authority. How she is so great devotee, that you will understand when you become a devotee. (730222SB.AUC) People present many illogical arguments, kutarka. They consider the Lord in Goloka and the eternal transcendental variety, in the form of the eternal relation between the worshipable Lord and His devotees, equal to the temporary activities of the conditioned souls under the influence of maya. Many arguments are raised in such philosophy considering the eternal transcendental objects equal to the material inert objects, but reality is not so. The pastimes of the svarupa-sakti of the Lord are not equal to the temporary endeavors of the conditioned soul in the material world. (Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, Vivrti on Bhag. 3.7.11) In fact to think that any associate of the Lord in the spiritual world can fall from His association showns a lack of understanding of the basic intrinsic nature of the Lord's svarupa-sakti and it's wonderful all absorbing ecstatic attribute, Krsna-prema. Prema References: In the material world there cannot be prema. Prema means love. The prema is only possible in the spiritual world. (720522SB.LA) Conclusion is that when you get your spiritual body then the desire will be different. And that is prema ...in the spiritual world, because there is no material body, only desire is how to satisfy Krsna. Kama krsna karmarpane. (761127SB.VRN) In the Vaikuntha planets there is actual, spiritual ananda . Krsna is there in His ecstatic, spiritual form, surrounded by His blissful associates, all of them eternally full of bliss and knowledge. They have nothing to do with material existence. In the spiritual planets even the scenery and birds and animals are fully conscious of Krsna and are absorbed in transcendental bliss. (Bhag. 11.2.37, purp.) Antithesis If we [incorrectly] assume that the siddhanta is that we do fall from the spiritual world, we are faced with a host of contradictions which cannot be resolved. The bulk of this presentation is concerned with documenting these contradictions with quotes from sastra, our acaryas and Srila Prabhupada. The official Iskcon GBC presentation, Our Original Position, fails to prove that the nitya-mukta jivas fall from the spiritual world. Inconclusive statements are given in an attempt to show that the jivas all originated in this material world by falling from the Lords lila in the spiritual world. This OOPs book does not address the real arguments or resolve the innumerable contradictions which arise from their hypothesis. The jivas originate from the tatastha. Innumerable references from prominent acaryas, some of which are given below, clearly and repeatedly state that the marginal jivas originate from the tatastha-sakti of the Lord and not in the spiritual (cit-sakti) realm itself. It should be understood that the jiva soul is neither produced of this material world, nor created in the transcendental world. They are originated from the marginal line between the transcendental and mundane spheres. ( Tattva Viveka 2.4, by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, page 55) The root of all actions is the desire for acts, the root of which again is avidya. Avidya is the name for the forgetfulness of soul's essential nature that 'I am Krsna's servant.' This avidya did not commence within the course of the mundane time. That root of karma of the jiva arose when he was at the tatastha position. As such, the beginning of karma is not to be traced within mundane time, and, on that account karma is beginningless. ( Jaiva Dharma, pag 234) The previous reference is also quoted in OOP's on page 269 but rather than accept this straightforward statement for what it is, it is lamely suggested that we shouldn't try to understand such things. One may then intelligently ask, "Then why have you written the OOPs book at all?!" There are two types of jivas liberated from maya: nitya-mukta , eternally liberated, and baddha-mukta, those who were bound but became liberated. The jivas who were never bound by maya are called nitya-mukta. The nitya-muktas are also of two types, aisvarya gata nitya mukta and madhurya gata nitya mukta. The former are the associates of Lord Narayana in Vaikuntha and are the atomic particles from mula Sankarsana. The latter are the associates of Lord Krsna in Goloka. They are the atomic particles of Sri Baladeva situated in Goloka Vrndavana. ( Jaiva-Dharma, Chapter 17, p. 251) The following reference is very clear and straightforward, presented exactly as translated and published in English by leading devotee scholars under the direction of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura. The jivas have grown out of the jiva-shakti of Sri Krishna. Chit-shakti is Sri Krishna's full (plenary) shakti, whereas the jiva-shakti is the incomplete shakti. From the plenary potency are produced complete entities, but from the incomplete potency have grown the jivas as atomic chit... When he desired to have His adherent attendance ' nitya parshada ' servitors in His Transcendental plane Goloka- Vrindavana, Vaikuntha, etc, He through Baladeva created those Eternal Parshada as nitya-mukta jivas at those divine worlds... Again at Paravyoma (Vaikuntha) He, as Sankarshana, reveals the eternally free associate jivas for the performance of the eight kinds of service to Sri Narayana. Maha Vishnu, the incarnation of Sankarshana, establishing Himself in the heart of jiva-shakti as Paramatma, creates the jiva-souls of tatastha shakti. These jivas are susceptible to the influence of maya ... As such, the conclusion is that it is the jiva-shakti that begets the jivas, and not the chit-shakti. " (Bhaktivinode Thakura, Jaiva Dharma, Chapter 15) According to Visnu Purana, Bhagavad-gita and all other Vedic literature's, the living entities are generated from the tatastha energy of the Lord. (Bhag. 3.7.9, purport) The conclusion is that the origin of all life is the bodily effulgence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is confirmed in Brahma-samhita: yasya prabha prabhavato jagad-ananda-koti. ( Bhag. 4.30.5, purport) As spiritual sparks of the beams emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord, we are all permanently related with Him and equal to Him in quality. ( C.c. Madhya-lila 5.22) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 The all-pervading feature of the Lord - which exists in all circumstances of waking and sleeping as well as in potential states and from which the jiva-sakti (living force) is generated as both conditioned and liberated souls - is known as Brahman. ( Isopanisad 16, purp., 9th parag.) It should be understood that the jiva soul is neither produced of this material world, nor created in the transcendental world. They are originated from the marginal line between the transcendental and mundane spheres. ( Tattva-viveka 2.4, purp.) Unexplainable contradictions inherent in the "Fall Theory:" There are no sastric statements that we fall from the spiritual world nor are there any references anywhere to a "mukta-baddha " living entity--that is, a nitya-mukta living entity that has fallen from the spiritual world and become nitya-baddha. Bhaktivinode Thakura in his Jaiva Dharma lists three types of living entities and gives specific information of their creation by the Lord. That is, the nitya-mukta parsada's of Vaikuntha are generated by Sankarsana, the nitya-mukta parsada's of Goloka Vrndavana are generated by Balarama and the marginal jivas of the tatastha-sakti are generated from Maha Vishnu. He does not mention a fourth type of entity, nor does any other authoritative source anywhere mention such an entity. -- The only statements, both in sastra and by Vaishnava acaryas are that the residents of the spiritual world are infallible and are eternally resident there--forever free from the influence of maya. Innumerable commentaries by prominent Gaudiya Vaishnava acaryas clearly indicate that we do not fall from the spiritual world. Srila Prabhupada also states that "the conclusion is that no one falls." (Bhag. 3.16.26, purp.) These clearly stated "no fall" statements cannot even begin to be reconciled by the "fall theory" advocates. This one point in itself renders the "fall theory" inconclusive and erroneous. There is no sastra sangati--reconciliation of contradictory statements of sastra or acaryas. To present a non-sastric and incomplete explanation that the residents of Vaikuntha have not actually fallen but are only daydreaming about mahamaya is not at all consistent with the numerous quotes presented herein--the residents of Vaikuntha never forget Krsna, never are influenced by maha-maya, are eternally blissful etc. If they experience any dreams they would certainly be about Krsna. -- All bonafide Vaishnava acaryas and publications unanimously state that the living entities do not fall from the spiritual world. [4] In recent years, there are some devotees that have published views contrary to those of the Vaishnava acaryas in hopes of establishing their own siddhanta. This is not acceptable. Numerous quotations from prominent Vaishnava authorities are presented in our web site: http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/vishnu_mjs/jiva/jiva_10.html We have heard the siddhanta that no one falls from the spiritual world personally from many many highly exaulted Gaudiya Vaisnava acaryas, in addition to our own Guru Maharaja, Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada [the conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world: Bhag. 3.16.26 purp], such as Srila Sridhara Maharaja, recognized by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura as sastra-nipuna (scriptural genious), Srila Bhakti Promod Puri Maharaja, chief editor of the daily spiritual newspaper Nadiya Prakasa during and after the time of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta, Srila Bhakti Vallabh Tirtha Maharaja, the successor acarya of Shri Chaitanya Gaudiya Matha of Madhava Maharaja, Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja, a leading disciple of Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Maharaja, the sannyasa guru of Srila Prabhupada, and leading sannyasi disciples of Srila Prabhupada such as Jagat Guru Swami B. G. Narasingha and Swami B. V. Tripurari and many others. And they are repeating what they learned from their Guru Maharaja, Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura and his direct disciples. Although Srila Prabhupada mentions having differences with his godbrothers and the Gaudiya Matha he never once even suggests that they do not understand the siddhanta. It is highly unlikely that they would say something different from that which was taught to them by their Guru Maharaja. These aforementioned Vaisnavas are seniormost in terms of their realizations and spiritual standing, so their knowledge and realization should not be completely disregarded. Additionally, our godbrother, the late Gour Govinda Maharaja, was highly learned in siddhanta and scrutinizingly studied the commentaries of our acaryas, especially Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura. He was known for his uncompromizing firm stand with the "No Fall" siddhanta. -- The residents of the spiritual world are extremely happy and being very much in love with Krsna, could never consider leaving.[5a]. Yogamaya always acts to perfect the Lord's lila. [5b] Residents cannot become envious [5c] and there is no disharmony there. [5d] 5a- References showing that the residents of the spiritual world are extremely happy and being very much in love with Krsna, could never consider leaving. The nitya-siddha devotees love Krsna millions of times more than their own selves. They all have eternal, blissful qualities just like Lord Krsna. (Brs. 2.1.290, text) Whether boys, youths, or grown-up persons-every one of the millions of cowherd residents of Vraja feels himself the dearest to Krsna. (Brhad-bhag. 2.6.211, text) Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusana writes in Govinda-bhasya, "One cannot even imagine that the Supreme Lord Hari would ever desire that the liberated souls fall down, nor would the liberated souls ever desire to leave the Lord." He further states that this is because of their extreme mutual love and cites four verses as evidence (Bg. 7.17, Bhag. 9.4.68, 9.4.65 and 2.8.6). For a devotee who has actually developed bhava, the pleasure derived from dharma, artha, kama and moksa appears like a drop in the presence of the sea. (Cc. Adi-lila 7.85, text) The Lord's pure devotee renders service unto the Lord out of unalloyed love only, and while discharging such devotional service the pure devotee forgets the position of the Supreme Lord. [bhag. 1.8.31, purport] The conception of spiritual bliss (Brahmananda) is fully present in those planets ... That eternal land is full of transcendental enjoyment and full of beauty and bliss. (Bhag.2.6.18, purp.) For all living entities to be attracted toward Krsna is natural, and therefore the Lord's real name is Krsna, meaning He who attracts everyone and everything. The typical examples of such attraction are found in Vrndavana, where everything and everyone is attracted by Krsna... all living beings are attracted by Krsna. This is the natural situation of everything in Vrndavana. Just contrary to the affairs of Vrndavana is the material world, where no one is attracted by Krsna and everyone is attracted by maya. This is the difference between the spiritual and material worlds. ( Bhag . 7.5.14, purp.) The Vrndavana-lila of Krsna is the perfect presentation of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He's simply enjoying. And all the inhabitants of Vrndavana, the gopis, the cowherd boys, Maharaja Nanda, Yasoda, everyone is simply anxious how to make Krsna happy. They have no other business. The inhabitants of Vrndavana has no other business than to satisfy Krsna, and Krsna has no other business. Yasoda-nandana brajajana-rajana. He's acting as the little son of Yasoda, and His only business is how to please the inhabitants of Vrndavana. Yasoda-nandana brajajana-rajana. [710217CC.GOR] In the spiritual world there is no such distinction. The officer and the cleaner, they are of the same importance. That is even Krsna, with Krsna. That is spiritual world. In Vrndavana the cowherds boys, they are playing with Krsna on equal terms. They do not know Krsna is God. They simply know how to love Krsna, that's all. There is no need of thinking that "Krsna is greater than the other cowherds boy. They are living entities." There is no such sense. Krsna wants that. That is Goloka Vrndavana worship. Simply the center is Krsna, and all the inhabitants of Vrndavana, they love Krsna, and they do not know anything except Krsna. This is Vrndavana life. Everyone knows that "Krsna is my very intimate friend." Somebody knows, "Krsna is my son," somebody knows that "Krsna is my master," and somebody is thinking, "Krsna is my lover." But center is Krsna. The cows, the calves, the friends, the gops, and the cowherds boy, Krsna's father, Nanda Maharaja, Krsna's mother, Yasomati, and . . . Everyone's center is Krsna, "How Krsna will be happy?" This is Vrndavana life. (750312DP.LON) Vrndavana means this attachment to Krsna. Central point is Krsna, but the varieties of attachment, they are the same. The only difference is that this attachment centering round Krsna is never broken. (750709SB.CHI) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 5b- The Yoga-maya energy of the spiritual world always acts to perfect the Lords lila. Yogamaya... acts to perfect all the pastimes of the Lord with His different types of devotees. ( Bhag . 2.7.30, purp.) The transcendental happiness exhibited in the spiritual world and all other spiritual manifestations there are made possible by the influence of yoga-maya, the internal potency of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. ( Bhag . 3.15.26, purport) When a devotee or associate of the Lord descends to this material world, he does so through the action of the spiritual energy. Any pastime conducted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead is an arrangement by yoga-maya, not maha-maya. (Bhag. 7.1.35, purp.) There is some action of the internal potency of the Lord in the exchange of feelings between Him and His eternal associates... The Lord exchanges transcendental relations in five ways, as proprietor, master, friend, son and lover, and in each of these pastimes He plays fully by the potency of yogamaya , the internal potency. He plays exactly like an equal friend... exactly like a son... exactly like a lover... exactly like a husband... Such devotees...think of Him exactly as a common friend, a pet son, or a lover or husband very much dear to heart and soul. That is the relation between the Lord and His transcendental devotees... When the Lord descends, He does so along with His entourage to display a complete picture of the transcendental world, where pure love and devotion for the Lord prevail without any mundane tinge of lording it over the creation of the Lord. ( Bhag . 1.11.39, purp.) The Lord's pure devotee renders service unto the Lord out of unalloyed love only, and while discharging such devotional service the pure devotee forgets the position of the Supreme Lord. [ Bhag . 1.8.31, purport] Srila Jiva Gosvami has elaborately explained... One of the fundamental philosophical principles of the Srimad-Bhagavatam is the distinction between two types of illusion, Yoga-maya and Maha-maya, the spiritual and material states of existence, respectively. Although Krsna is God, the omnipotent, omniscient Supreme Being, His intimate associates in the spiritual world love Him so much that they see Him as their beloved child, friend, lover and so on. So that their ecstatic love can transcend the boundaries of mere reverence, they forget that Krsna is the Supreme God of all the universes, and thus their pure, intimate love expands unlimitedly. (Bhag. 10.28.13, purp. by disciples of Srila A. C. Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada) Yogamaya means the mercy of the Supreme Lord which connects a devotee in the transcendental loving service of the Lord, and mahamaya means the external potency of the Lord which puts a conditioned soul into illusion that he will be happy by material adjustment. Ltr Aniruddha 68-11-14 The Lord and His pure devotees are always beyond the range of Maya's action. Even though they appear like action of Maya, we should understand their action of Yogamaya or the internal potency of the Lord. SP Ltr Satsvarupa 68-04-03 Yogamaya means the mercy of the Supreme Lord which connects a devotee in the transcendental loving service of the Lord, and mahamaya means the external potency of the Lord which puts a conditioned soul into illusion that he will be happy by material adjustment. (Ltr Aniruddha 68-11-14) By the influence of the Lord's yogamaya potency, Krsna's cowherd boyfriends think themselves His equals and sometimes challenge Him. A boy will climb on His back and say, "What kind of a big man are You?" Similarly, when mother Yasoda or Srimati Radharani chides Krsna, He likes it. (NBS 2.27) 5c- Envy does not manifest in the spiritual world. The most important thing about the spiritual world is that there is no envy among the devotees there. (Bhag. 3.15.19, purp.) Where not only is life eternal, blissful and full of knowledge... ignorance, misery, egoism, anger and envy–are completely absent. (Cc. Madhya 5.22, purp.) There is no envy in the spiritual world. The OOP's book states that when a resident there becomes envious he must leave because envy is not allowed. We do not agree that envy can manifest even for a fraction of a second. If you wish to light a match in a gas filled room and think that you may go outside after lighting the match you will blow yourself up first, you cannot have the fire in the room for a moment. Similarly envy cannot even manifest in the spiritual realm--the nature of the spiritual world is such that the unpleasant conditions under which envy and other negative material qualities may develop are completely absent there, as we have shown with the many references quoted herein. 5d- References that there is absolutely no disharmony in spiritual world In the Vaikuntha world there is complete harmony between the residents and the Supreme Personality of Godhead. (Bhag. 3.15.33, text) In the Vaikuntha world there is no question of enmity between the Lord and the residents. (Bhag. 3.15.32, purport) ... are absolutely in harmony with the Personality of Godhead, or in other words, they always think of the Lord as their only dependable friend and well-wisher. (Bhag. 2.2.18, purp.) In the Vaikuntha world there is no disharmony between the Lord and the residents. Therefore God's creation in the Vaikuntha world is perfect. There is no cause of fear. The entire kingdom of God is such a completely harmonious unit that there is no possibility of emnity. Everything there is absolute . . . Maya means disharmony between the living entities and the Supreme Lord, and Vaikuntha means harmony between them. (Bhag. 3.15.33, purp.) [in the spiritual world] those who are in oneness with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, however, are called infallible. Oneness does not mean that they have no individuality, but that there is no disunity. (Bg. 15.16, purp.) In the spiritual world... there is no disparity because everyone wants to render service to the Supreme Lord, and no one wants to imitate the Lord in becoming the beneficiary. (Bhag. 1.15.25-6, purp.) There the devotees are so much in accord with Krsna and Visnu that there is no question of disagreement. (690411rc.ny) There is no more jati , no more distinction. Everything serving. That one. The master is also spiritual, and the servant is also spiritual, and there is no other relationship. Here in the material world we artificially want to become . . . we want to become God. But in the spiritual world there is no such conception. (741216SB.BOM) -- Many statements exist in sastra and the writings of Gaudiya Acaryas which clearly indicate that the residents of the spiritual world are all self-realized [6a], full of knowledge and six opulences [6b], infallible [6c], are pure devotees [6d], have no desires [6e] and are suddha-sattva/cinmaya-rasa [6f]. A detailed investigation of these qualities clearly reveals that it is impossible for those possessing such qualities to ever desire to leave the spiritual world. [6g] 6a- References showing that the residents of the spiritual world are all self realized All the residents of Vaikunthaloka... are all self-realized souls who are nitya-mukta, everlastingly liberated. (Bhag. 6.1.34-6, purp.) Those who are in the spiritual world are known to be completely self-realized because on the spiritual platform the living entity is not forgetful of his service to the Lord. (Bhag. 4.24.33, purp.) Definitions of Self Realized: Knows his constitutional position perfectly well. (Bg 5.20, purp.) Fixed in the understanding that his eternal position is to serve in association with the Supreme Lord. (Bhag. 3.26.2, purp.) To know the individual self and the reciprocal exchanges of loving service between the Supreme Personality of Godhead and the living entity is real self-realization. (Bhag. 3.27.28-9, purp.) Those who are in the spiritual world are known to be completely self-realized because on the spiritual platform the living entity is not forgetful of his service to the Lord... they are eternally fixed for they understand the position of the Supreme being, as well as their individual constitution. (Bhag. 4.24.33, purp.) Even in the midst of great distress, a self-realized sage does not lose control of himself, nor is his spiritual knowledge lost... His mind is fixed on the Supreme Personality of Godhead... he cannot be surpassed or overwhelmed. (Bhag. 11.8.5. purp.) According to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura, a self-realized soul cuts all doubts to pieces by direct experience of his true spiritual identity... there is no possibility of any existence separate from Lord Krsna. (Bhag. 11.11.12-13, purp. by disciples of Srila Prabhupada) 6b- The residents are completely fixed in knowledge of their constitutional position. The following quotes prove that every resident of the spiritual world is fully cognizant in their sat-cit-ananda spiritual body and cannot become illusioned; additionally, illusion being a product of maya, is not allowed there–na yatra maya (Bhag. 2.9.10). They have free choice but but being in full knowledge and infallible they choose to use it properly and never wish to imitate the Lord. A pure devotee of the Lord can never forget those lotus feet in any circumstance... (Bhag. 11.2.53, text) According to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura, we can understand from this verse that since none of the material facilities available in any of the universal planetary systems can distract a pure devotee of the Lord, such a devotee can never possibly fall or become inimical to the Lord's service. (Bhag. 11.2.53, purp. by disciples of Srila Prabhupada) In the spiritual world... no one wants to imitate the Lord in becoming the beneficiary. (Bhag. 1.15.25-6, purp.) In the spiritual world, there is no forgetfulness by the living entities, who are free from all kinds of contaminations resulting from the forgetful state of existence... the whole atmosphere of the spiritual world is called vidya, or full of knowledge. (Bhag. 2.6.21, purp.) . . . in that pure conscious state [in the spiritual world] the living entity does not forget that he is never the Lord, but that he is eternally the servitor of the Lord in transcendental love. (Bhag. 2.9.1, purp. last parag.) A pure living entity in his original spiritual existence is fully conscious of his constitutional position as an eternal servitor of the Lord. All souls who are situated in such pure consciousness are liberated, and therefore they eternally live in bliss and knowledge in the various Vaikuntha planets in the spiritual sky. (Bhag. 3.5.29, purp.) A nitya-mukta never forgets his position as the eternal servant of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. One who does not forget this position and knows that he is part and parcel of the Supreme Lord is nitya-mukta . (Bhag. 4.16.19, purp.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 All the residents of Vaikunthaloka know perfectly well that their master is Narayana, or Krsna, and that they are all His servants. They are all self-realized souls who are nitya-mukta, everlastingly liberated. Although they could conceivably declare themselves Narayana or Visnu, they never do so; they always remain Krsna conscious and serve the Lord faithfully. Such is the atmosphere of Vaikunthaloka. ( Bhag. 6.1.34-6, purp.) A man with full knowledge knows perfectly well that there cannot be any existence without Krsna. ( Bhag. 7.15.58, purp.) An exalted and pure devotee like Maharaja Ambarisa is in full awareness of Paramatma, Brahman, maya, the material world, the spiritual world, and how things are going on everywhere. ( Bhag. 9.5.25, purp.) ... he never forgets his eternal servitorship to Krsna. ( Cc. Madhya-lila 20.118, purp.) . . .the nitya-siddhas are eternally Krsna conscious without any forgetfulness. (Nectar of Devotion, p. 205) [the nitya-mukta living entity] never forgets his eternal servitorship to Krsna. ( Cc. Madhya-lila 20.118, purp.) The living beings in Vaikunthaloka are never forgetful of their identities: they are eternally cognizant of their relationship with God ( Cc. Madhya-lila 5.22, purp.) Within this material world there are different grades of forms, and according to the grade, knowledge is proportionately manifested. For example, the knowledge in the body of a child is not as perfect as the knowledge in the body of an adult man. Everywhere there are different grades of living entities–in aquatic animals, in the plants and trees, in the reptiles and insects, in birds and beasts and in the civilized and uncivilized human forms of life. Above the human form of life there are demigods, Caranas and Siddhas on up to Brahmaloka, where Lord Brahma lives, and among these demigods there are always different grades of knowledge. But past this material world, in the spiritual sky, everyone is in full knowledge, and therefore all the living entities there are engaged in devotional service to the Lord, either in the Vaikuntha planets or in Krsnaloka. ( Krsna Book, Ch 28) The description of the spiritual world... Suddha-sattva means simply goodness, pure goodness... And in pure goodness we can understand our constitutional position: we can understand what is God, what is creation, everything... So the living entities there, they are full of knowledge. Therefore they do not come into this material world. (661217CC.NY) Root of forgetfullness is avidya, which is not present in the spiritual world. (cf. Cc. Madhya-lila 6.155) Cit means that he's full of knowledge. That is not in ignorance. This material happiness is in ignorance. And spiritual happiness is suddha-sattva. Suddha-sattva means pure goodness... Sattvam visuddham, visuddham vasudeva-sabditam. That is transcendental platform, and in that platform you can understand God. (690618SB.NV) In the spiritual world the form is sac-cid-ananda-vigraha. Every form is eternal, full of knowledge and full of bliss. That is the difference between material world and spiritual world. (760419BG.MEL) Nitya-siddhas means they never come in contact with this material world, and even if they come here for some business, they do not forget their position. That is nitya-siddha . Try to understand. (Bg. Lecture, July 14, 1973, London) We contrast these descriptions of self-realization and full knowledge regarding the residents of the spiritual worlds with that presented in the GBC Position Booklet. Therein, "full of knowledge" is defined as "possessing only a small portion of knowledge according to ones small capacity and necessity." It is also stated that, "the living entity, covered by envy, cannot recognize that he will suffer in the material world...Covered by lust, the living entity forgets his original knowledge and enters into the material domain to try to satisfy his desires." Here in particular, three gross mistakes are made. The first mistake is the assumption that "full knowledge," in reference to the residents of the spiritual world, can be interpreted to mean that these residents are not fully self realized as shown above and therefore they make the mistake of choosing to go to the material world. The second mistake is that the living entity may be covered by envy and lust while still within the spiritual world. The third mistake is that a resident of the spiritual world has desires to satisfy. These points have already been discussed and validated in this essay. 6c- References that the residents of the spiritual world are infallible . . . and in the spiritual world every living entity is called infallible. (Bg. 15.16, text) Deathlessness, fearlessness and freedom from the anxieties of old age and disease exist in the kingdom of God. ( Bhag . 2.6.19, text) The spiritual world... is especially meant for those who will never be reborn. ( Bhag . 2.6.20, text) The Lord and His eternal servitors in the transcendental kingdom all have eternal forms which are auspicious, infallible, spiritual and eternally youthful. (Bhag. 2.6.18, purport) In the Padma Purana, Uttara-khanda , it is stated ...the three-fourths manifestation of God's creation... contains the highest perfectional stage of living conditions... It is the unalloyed manifestation of the energy of the Lord, without illusion as experienced here in the material world. ( Bhag . 2.9.10, purport) The three-fourths part manifestation of God's creation... contains the highest perfectional stage of living conditions... everything in the transcendental world is everlasting, full of knowledge and bliss without any deterioration. (720426SB.TOK) The Lord has His internal energy also, which has another creation known to be the Vaikunthalokas, where there is no ignorance, no passion, no illusion and no past and present. With a poor fund of knowledge one may be unable to understand the existence of such things as the Vaikuntha atmosphere, but that does not nullify its existence. (Bhag. 2.9.10, purport) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted March 17, 2008 Report Share Posted March 17, 2008 6d- References that residents of the spiritual world are pure devotees In the spiritual sky there are spiritual planets known as Vaikunthas, which are the residence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and His pure devotees. (Bhag. 3.15.13, text.) ... Vaikuntha planets, in each of which the Supreme Personality of Godhead... enjoys Himself in the association of unlimited numbers of pure devotee associates. (Bhag. 2.2.31, purp.) The inhabitants of Vaikuntha... are pure devotees. (Bhag. 3.15.17, purp.) 6e- References that pure devotees (such as the residents of the spiritual world) have no personal desires (for sense gratification). In the Vaikuntha planets all the residents are similar in form to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. thay all engage in devotional service to the Lord without desires for sense gratification. (Bhag. 3.15.14, text) In Vaikunthaloka there is no occupation but the service of the Lord, and this service is not rendered with a purpose. Although every service has a particular result, the devotees never aspire for the fulfillment of their own desires; their desires are fulfilled by rendering transcendental loving service to the Lord. (Bhag. 3.15.14, purport) ... Such transcendental birds stop their own singing simply to hear the glories of the Lord. (Bhag. 3.15.18, text) This verse reveals the absolute nature of Vaikuntha. There is no difference between the birds there and the human residents... The special feature of Vaikunthaloka is that there is no question of sense gratification. (Bhag. 3.15.18, purp.) The inhabitants of Vaikuntha... although crowded by their consorts... cannot be stimulated to passion. (Bhag. 3.15.20, text) The men are so absorbed in Krsna consciousness that the beautiful bodies of the women cannot attract them... the residents of Vaikuntha have a better standard of pleasure, so there is no need of sex pleasure. (Bhag. 3.15.20, purp.) A pure devotee of the Lord can never forget those lotus feet in any circumstance. He will not give up his shelter at the lotus feet of the Lord for a single moment-indeed, not for half a moment-even in exchange of the benediction of ruling and enjoying the opulence of the entire universe. (Bhag. 11.2.53, text) Desireless means... to be conscious of one's actual position and thus desire satisfaction only [of] the Supreme Lord. Srila Jiva Gosvami has explained this desirelessness as bhajaniya-parama-purusa-sukha-matra-sva-sukhatvam in his Sandarbha. This means that one should feel happy only by experiencing the happiness of the Supreme Lord. ... the spirit of akamah [desirelessness] is fully exhibited in the spiritual world. (Bhag. 2.3.10, purport). The inhabitants of Vaikuntha... are pure devotees. They consider glorification of the Lord more important than their own sense gratification. In the Vaikuntha planets there is no question of sense gratification... The inhabitants of Vaikuntha give first preference to the service of the Lord, not their own sense gratification. Serving the Lord in transcendental love yields such transcendental pleasure that, in comparison, sense gratification is counted as insignificant. (Bhag. 3.15.17, purp.) In the spiritual world one has no desire other than to please the senses of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. (Cc. Madhya 19.155, purp.) Everyone tried to satisfy Krsna–even the cows, the flowers, the fruits, and the water of Vrndavana. This is because everything in Vrndavana is spiritual; nothing is material. (Teachings of Queen Kunti, Chapter 25, Unalloyed Devotion) The Vrndavana-lila of Krsna is the perfect presentation of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. He's simply enjoying. And all the inhabitants of Vrndavana, the gopis, the cowherd boys, Maharaja Nanda, Yasoda, everyone is simply anxious how to make Krsna happy. They have no other business. The inhabitants of Vrndavana has no other business than to satisfy Krsna, and Krsna has no other business. Yasoda-nandana brajajana-rajana. He's acting as the little son of Yasoda, and His only business is how to please the inhabitants of Vrndavana. [710217CC.GOR] Rupa Goswami has given us the definition of pure devotional service as being anyabhilasita-sunyam, or without desires other than service to please Krsna. Jiva Goswami comments that the word used here is anyabhilasita which means "the habit of acting under extraneous desires which are semi-natural with the person involved." So uttama-bhakti means not only "absence of extraneous desires," but also the complete absence of the very nature from which such extraneous desires arise. Bhaktivinode Thakura corroborates this in his booklet "Bhakti-tattva-viveka " in his analysis of bhakti-abasa. Therein he states that in the [nitya-mukta ] liberated state "the jiva remains free from any material designation and hence within him there is no opportunity for the marginal characteristics of bhakti to exist." Additionally, Visvanatha Cakravartipada in his Sri Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu-bindu has defined the svarupa-laksana (intrinsic characteristic) of uttama-bhakti [as possessed by the residents of the spiritual world] as involving activities favorable to Sri Krsna [anukulyena krsnanusilanam ] and the tatastha-laksana (extrinsic characteristic) of uttama-bhakti is described in the first line of the same verse, anyabhilasita-sunyam: uttama bhakti is devoid of all desires other than to please Sri Krsna. References to Pure devotion Pure devotee means he has no other desire, no material desire. Anyabhilasita-sunyam, zero. 740325BG.BOM Pure devotee of Krsna. They have no other desire. Anyabhilasita-sunyam. They have no other desire. 740926SB.CAL What is that pure devotee? Anyabhilasita-sunyam... This is pure devotion: no other desire... 741019SB.MAY Anyabhilasita-sunyam. Anya. Anya means other than Krsna's service. They have made all, everything zero. We don't want all these things. We simply want to serve Krsna. 720524SB.LA What is that pure devotional service? anyabhilasita-sunyam ... No other desire than to please Krsna.710727SB.NY Who is a pure devotee? anyabhilasita-sunyam ... Pure devotion is anukulyena krsnanu-silanam: simply take to such work and activities which will favorably dispose Krsna. 710410LE.BOM Anya-bhilasa. Anya means "other than Krsna." Anyabhilasita-sunyam, being completely freed from any other desires 740111mw.la 6f- The residents of the spiritual world are all suddha-sattva/cinmaya-rasa Which is directly under the protection of My spiritual energy of unadulterated bliss. That is the ultimate perfectional goal of the living entity. (Bhag. 3.27.28-29, text) The Lord's abode, name, fame, entourage, etc., are of the same transcendental quality, and how this transcendental quality differs from the material world is explained herewith in this verse. (Bhag. 2.2.17, purp.) Nitya-mukta means they never come in this material world... They are in the spiritual form, ananda-cinmaya-rasa, enjoying always spiritual bliss in the association of Krsna. (Bhag. June 19, 1972, Los Angeles) In Bhagavat-sandarbha text 75-78, Sri Jiva describes that the Lord's associates have transcendental bodies, possess qualities identical to those of the Lord, they are beyond the influence of time, are all suddha-sattva in nature, eternal, immutable... etc The Lord and His devotees reside in the Vaikuntha planets, and they are of the same transcendental quality, namely, suddha-sattva, the mode of pure goodness. (Bhag. 3.15.15, purp.) In the spiritual sky... suddha-sattva, which is a pure spiritual energy that sustains all the Vaikuntha planets with the full opulences of knowledge, wealth, prowess, etc. (Cc. Adi-lila 5.41) Everything in the Goloka Vrndavana planet is a spiritual expansion of sac-cid-ananda. Everyone there is of the same potency– ananda-cinmaya-rasa. The relationship between the Supreme Personality of Godhead and His servitor is cinmaya-rasa. Krsna and His entourage and paraphernalia are of the same cinmaya potency. (Cc. Madhya-lila 19.154, purp.) References describing Suddha-sattva ... description of the spiritual world... Suddha-sattva. Suddha-sattva means simply goodness, pure goodness, without any tinge of passion and ignorance... And in pure goodness we can understand our constitutional position: we can understand what is God, what is creation, everything. (661217CC.NY) Spiritual happiness is suddha-sattva. Suddha-sattva means pure goodness. In the material world there are three stages: ignorance, passion and goodness. The goodness platform is very nice in the material world, but there is another platform, which is called suddha-sattva. Sattvam visuddham, visuddham vasudeva-sabditam. That is transcendental platform, and in that platform you can understand God. (690618SB.NV) The total exhibition of these potencies [ sandhini, samvit and hladini ] is called visuddha-sattva. (Cc. Adi 4.62) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts