Is it true that this is Vishnu's dream?

[Beggar]

A careful analysis of the qualities of the residents of the spiritual world clearly indicates that they could never desire (or choose) to leave there. Further, we find innumerable references in sastra that Krsna is very favorably disposed to his pure devotees in the spiritual world, carefully protects them, is completely controlled by them and thus would certainly not desire nor make the arrangement that they could so easily fall from his perfect abode:

Devotees are Most Dear to the Lord

He comes under the control of His devotees. (Bhag. 10.9.19, text)

…certainly conquer Your Lordship. (Bhag. 10.14.3, text)

I am completely under the control of My devotees. (Bhag. 9.4.63, text)

The pure devotees . . . bring Me under their full control. (Bhag. 9.4.66, text)

The pure devotee is always within the core of My heart. (Bhag. 9.4.68, text)

How can I give up such devotees at any time? (Bhag. 9.4.65, text)

Additional similar references are given on our web site at the following URL:

 

 

http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/vishnu_mjs/jiva/jiva_3.html

 

7- All examples of apparent falldowns of nitya-parsadas from the eternal lila of the Lord cited by proponents of the "fall theory" are not actual falldowns. Tulasi is not an ordinary living entity. It is mentioned many times in sastra and in Srila Prabhupada's purports (pertinent quotes included within this presentation) that the descent of the Lord's nitya-parsadas is for the purpose of His lila and is not in the same category as the appearance of the nitya-baddha living entities. Nor is the descent of Tulasi an example of a resident of the spiritual world becoming envious of Krsna. It is a pastime under the influence of yogamaya not maha-maya.

The example of Kala Krsnadasa is inappropriate since he was already in the material world. He is not mentioned in Gaura-Gannodesa-dipika as being Krsna parsada. Furthermore, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu did not allow him to fall away but protected him and kept him with Him for a year. Kala Krsnadasa was then given the shelter of Nityananda Prabhu and the nectarean service of informing Mother Saci and the residents of Navadvipa of the Lords South Indian tour in great detail.

Other so-called examples of falldown from spiritual positions, that have been cited, are in each case a special arrangement by the Lord—spiritually situated devotees were simply taking part in the Lord's transcendental lila. Citraketu did not fall into material life. It is clear from his prayers to the Lord (as Vrtrasura) that he was still very much an exalted devotee, that his bhakti was not covered, and commentators have explained that this [apparent falldown] was a special favor of the Lord for it increased his attachment to the Lord. Srila Prabhupada explains very clearly that Jaya and Vijaya's fall was a special arrangement of the Lord for His lila (Bhag. 3.16.26-27, purp.). Jiva Gosvami writes in Priti-sandarbha, 7, that when Jaya and Vijaya became demons, within they knew themselves and kept their spiritual form.

The fall of Bharata Maharaja was also special as he was protected by the Lord. Even in the body of a deer and later as an apparently incoherent Jada Bharat he remembered his past experiences and Krsna consciousness and perfected himself in the next life.

Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, in this regard, writes in his commentary on Srimad-Bhagavatam 10.2.33,

Even if they fall, they become more attached to You, just as when King Citraketu, Bharata Maharaja and King Indradyumna had a so-called fall down. In their fallen forms, such as Vrtrasura [previously King Citraketu], their love multiplied hundreds of times. Therefore, the fall of a devotee causes his love to increase.

In Srimad-Bhagavatam, text 10.2.33, it is stated that devotees do not fall like non-devotees for the Lord protects them. In the purport Srila Prabhupada writes,

In history there are many instances of devotees like Citraketu, Indradyumna and Maharaja Bharata who circumstantially fell down but were still protected. Maharaja Bharata, for example, because of his attachment to a deer, thought of the deer at the time of death, and therefore in his next life he became a deer (

yam yam vapi smaran bhavam tyajaty ante kalevaram

). Because of protection by the Supreme Personality of Godhead, however, the deer remembered his relationship with the Lord and next took birth in a good brahminical family and performed devotional service (

sucinam srimatam gehe yoga-bhrasto 'bhijayate

). Similarly, Citraketu fell down and became a demon, Vrtrasura, but he too was protected.

8- The theory that one can become illusioned and fall introduces imperfection in the [infallible] spiritual world—this is Mayavada philosophy. It derides the concept of the Lord's perfect abode. It is stated explicitly that the spiritual world is a manifestation of the Lord's internal pleasure potency, svarupa-sakti, the Lord's most powerful potency. [cf section 6f]

Srila Prabhupada states, "It is a most ludicrous argument to say that the Supreme Lord is overpowered by His own material energy." (Bhag. 3.7.9, purp.) This is the conception of the impersonalists who think that a portion of the Lord's svarupa sakti, the Lord's most powerful sakti, can be covered by maya—that maya can cover brahman. Actually, the fall theory is worse than Mayavada for it suggests that not only brahman but Parabrahman may be covered by maya.

It is stated in Bhag. 2.5.13 that maya never appears in front of the Lord, therefore it is apparent that those who are situated on the front side of the Lord, the pure devotees, are never effected by maya. Are we to suggest that the Lord's internal potency is fallible and imperfect? Many references attest to the invincibility of the Lord's internal potency. That the superior energy of the Lord (svarupa-sakti ) can be overwhelmed by the inferior energy of the Lord (maya-sakti ) is not supported anywhere by sastra or by any acaryas. Yet, even disregarding the direct statement of the Srimad-Bhagavatam 2.9.10, that maya cannot enter the spiritual world, this theory [that all jivas in the material world come by falldown from the spiritual world] requires that the eternal associates of Krsna be influenced by maya while in the spiritual world, in order for them to become illusioned. For "the living entity cannot be forgetful of his real identity unless influenced by the avidya potency." (Bhag. 3.7.5, purp.) Certainly it is considered an imperfection of the spiritual world that one firmly situated under the personal protection of the divine internal potency of the Lord and ecstatically engaged in the Lord's loving transcendental service in "the highest perfectional stage of living conditions," (Bhag. 2.9.10, purport), can fall from that to repeated hellish and degraded lives of birth and death.

Are we to accept that uncountable formerly self-realized living entities, billions is just an acre of countryside, all became envious and fell from the bliss of the Lord's personal association? Perhaps Vaikuntha should then be named Sakuntha, the abode of anxiety.

<dir>

 

evam vadanti rajarsersayah ke ca nanvitahyat sva-vaco

virudhyetanunam te na smaranty uta

 

 

Such is the account given by some sages, O wise King, but those who speak in this illogical way are contradicting themselves, having forgotten their own previous statements. (Bhag. 10.77.30, text)

</dir> Conclusion:

It is our contention that the actual sastric truth regarding the jiva's original positon as presented herein and which is thoroughly supported by all our acaryas, has eluded many devotees due to their offenses to highly situated Vaisnavas. A chronology of events surrounding the siksa of Srila B. R. Sridhara Maharaja and the many offenses committed against His Holiness has been documented in the book Our Affectionate Guardians, available online at:

 

 

http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/vishnu_mjs/affection_unabridged/index.html

 

A sastric reference to the anartha called tattva-vibrahma is given by Bhaktivinode Thakura in his Bhajana-rahasya, wherein it is stated that one remains in illusion about different tattva's, such as jiva-tattva, guru-tattva, vaisnava-tattva, and rasa-tattva due to one's offenses etc. Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura in his Madhurya Kadambini quotes a verse from Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu regarding the offenses which lead to a material conception of spiritual topics. The effect of one's offenses is that one developes the same qualities which they criticize of another. We feel strongly that the misunderstanding of this subject belies a fundamental lack of comprehension of the essential substance of Krsna consciousness.

A lengthier presentation with many additional references is available on our Web Site:

 

 

http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/vishnu_mjs/jiva/jiva.html

 

The only subject not covered in this paper, which is however available in our longer Web presentation, is the topic of "Preaching is not always siddhanta:"

 

 

http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/vishnu_mjs/jiva/jiva_8.html

 

We suggest than an example of preaching something other than siddhanta (cf. Bg. 15.6: "Once going there, one never returns.") is shown in the following conversation, which directly contradicts Bg. 15.6:

Paramahamsa: So we can come to the spiritual world and return?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Paramahamsa: Fall down?

Prabhupada: Yes. As soon as we try, "Oh, this material world is very nice,Yes," Krsna says, "yes, you go." (Conversation, Los Angeles, May 13, 1973)

 

 

 

Please address correspondence to:

 

 

Swami B B Vishnu

Sri Narasingha Chaitanya Matha

P. O. Box 21, Doddagosai Ghatt

Sri Rangapatna, Karnataka 571 438 INDIA

Phone: (08236-252-627)

Email: Swami B B Vishnu or gosai at gosai dot com

 

 

 

 

Tattva articles & books:

http://www.gosai.com/tattva/

 

 

Swami Vishnu Articles:

http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/vishnu_mjs/index.html

 

 

Jiva Index:

http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/vishnu_mjs/jiva/jiva.html

 

 

This URL:

http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html/vishnu_mjs/jiva/jiva-tattva.html

 

 

Home:

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[Beggar]

 

This thread should be closed. It is another one of those fall of the jiva threads with a lot of blasphemy. I have had enough and I think people with the right mind who are on Audarya have also had enough. I suggest Admin5 should close this thread as soon as possible.

 

Hare Krishna and Jai Nitai

indulekhadasi

 

<!-- / message --> <!-- sig --> __________________

sarac candra bhrantim sphurad amala kantim gaja gatim l hari premonmattam dhrta parama sattvam smita mukham l sada ghurnan netram kara kalita vetram kali bhidam l bhaje nityanandam bhajana taru kandam niravadi l

 

(Verse 1 of Nityanandastakam by Vrindavan das Thakur)

 

Please visit: http://www.freewebs.com/thedesiretree which is dedicated to Lord Nityananda- the most munificent!

 

[Beggar]

 

This thread should be closed. It is another one of those fall of the jiva threads with a lot of blasphemy. I have had enough and I think people with the right mind who are on Audarya have also had enough. I suggest Admin5 should close this thread as soon as possible.

 

Hare Krishna and Jai Nitai

indulekhadasi

 

<!-- / message --> <!-- sig --> __________________

sarac candra bhrantim sphurad amala kantim gaja gatim l hari premonmattam dhrta parama sattvam smita mukham l sada ghurnan netram kara kalita vetram kali bhidam l bhaje nityanandam bhajana taru kandam niravadi l

 

(Verse 1 of Nityanandastakam by Vrindavan das Thakur)

 

Please visit: http://www.freewebs.com/thedesiretree which is dedicated to Lord Nityananda- the most munificent!

 

[Beggar]

 

This thread should be closed. It is another one of those fall of the jiva threads with a lot of blasphemy. I have had enough and I think people with the right mind who are on Audarya have also had enough. I suggest Admin5 should close this thread as soon as possible.

 

Hare Krishna and Jai Nitai

indulekhadasi

 

<!-- / message --> <!-- sig --> __________________

sarac candra bhrantim sphurad amala kantim gaja gatim l hari premonmattam dhrta parama sattvam smita mukham l sada ghurnan netram kara kalita vetram kali bhidam l bhaje nityanandam bhajana taru kandam niravadi l

 

(Verse 1 of Nityanandastakam by Vrindavan das Thakur)

 

Please visit: http://www.freewebs.com/thedesiretree which is dedicated to Lord Nityananda- the most munificent!

 

[suchandra]

It is surely fully right that a falldown from Vaikuntha into this material world is a catastrophy - like mayavadha. But then again, if other residents of Vaikuntha overlook it because according their cognition it is the time span of a butterfly moving its wing one time, then they wouldn't even call it a falldown, but a microsleep.

And therefore this is not mentioned because when we hear it, it would delay our going back home to Vaikuntha.

[AncientMariner]

Gotta admit that was a convincing article posted by Beggar. I have never kept up with all the fall of the jiva debates but I never have understood how the residents of the Vaikunthas who are full of knowledge and bliss could fall into material nature. I have appreciated the incidents in the Srimad Bhagavatam where devotees are placed in material world to act as adversaries or different functions in the pastimes of the Lord but I never thought that meant they became ordinary jivas conditioned by material nature.

[theist]

Way to ruin a good thread with an old tired worn out useless argument gentlemen. Hopefully Admin 5 will remove all posts that are involved with that and save this thread from being hijacked. The topic of dreaming in the material world can be discussed without obscessing over the origin of the jiva.

 

 

Very good post Suchandra, I would like to further add what Srila Prabhupada has taught us

 

Our attendance in the material world is very, very real. And to each of us, while we are here in the mahat-tattva or material creation, it is NOT a dream state, we do NOT experience the material world as a dream state WHILE WE ARE HERE, try to understand it is very real, in fact the mahat-tattva is as real as being in Vaikuntha however, we experience everything in the mahat-tattva as temporary.

 

I must take exception to the idea that this is not a dream state because we do not experience it as a dream. A dream is a dream rather we recognize it as a dream.

 

This statement is more mayavada IMO than anything Prabhupada taught. Where does he say it is not a dream as long as we think it is real?

[Beggar]

 

It is surely fully right that a falldown from Vaikuntha into this material world is a catastrophy - like mayavadha.

 

How could it be "a catastrophy - like mayavadha?" Mayavada is a false belief system within the material world?

 

 

But then again, if other residents of Vaikuntha overlook it because according their cognition it is the time span of a butterfly moving its wing one time, then they wouldn't even call it a falldown, but a microsleep.

And therefore this is not mentioned because when we hear it, it would delay our going back home to Vaikuntha.

 

Are you saying that the sastras don't say that the jivas fall from Vaikuntha because "it would delay our going back home to Vaikuntha?" Wow talk about mental speculation and rebellion against real authority!

[Beggar]

Hello, Living Soul BY: CHITRAKETU DAS

Mar 14, UK (SUN) — When we approach doctrines that have been established by ISKCON GBC authority, we have to consider not whether this is sastrically correct, but what political expediency this doctrine serves. Although the early Christians happily believed in reincarnation, their church leaders felt that the doctrine of reincarnation gave believers too much scope and thereby lessened the urgency of the church message. If you don’t actually go straight to hell forever at the end of this life, unless you are redeemed by church intervention, but have the facility of trying again or making further improvement on your spiritual lot in another incarnation, perhaps that would tend to make people lazy about redemption and thus reduce the impact of church propaganda, that they need the church to save their souls. Maybe, even, the sale of official pardons would drop off.

What political purpose, then, does the doctrine that the soul falls directly from Vaikuntha serve? Many psychologists believe that all doctrines, being essentially man-made entities, can be explained with regard to motive, pragmatically so to speak, independently of any concern regarding their ontological validity or invalidity. Basically, what that means is: we don’t know where the jiva comes from, and neither does the GBC, but they have their own particular motives for forcing their opinions onto us. I have read Paradise Lost in college and know that Prabhupada was fully aware of its contents, probably having studied it himself, and the account of the fall of man in Genesis is so short it takes only a minute or two to peruse it.

Knowing that these concepts underlie our western psyches, no doubt he called up the imagery as well as the vocabulary associated with it in his preaching. It should be noted, however, that although Lucifer falls from Heaven, Adam and Eve fall from an intermediary state between Heaven and Hell (which is Lucifer’s abode), namely the place of innocence known as Eden.

Why should it be expedient for the GBC to thump so hard on an issue that, it seems, Prabhupada was ambiguous about, or certainly, may I say, somewhat imprecise about? I think we have all come to realize by now that the GBC is not a body of brahmanas genuinely inquisitive about philosophical conclusions, but rather a class of despots, kshatriyas who are not guided by brahmanas, who are ever ready to impose by force the conclusions they deem expedient. This is so true about the jiva issue, which, it would seem from a purely pragmatic point of view, has no impact on our devotional lives: what does it matter if the soul falls from Vaikuntha or doesn’t? I might add that if it does indeed fall from Vaikuntha, it could only ever do so once, since Lord Krishna promises in the Bhagavad-gita that once you return to that transcendental abode, you never come back here. I suppose it’s a point of fascination, since our philosophy seems to present neat explanations for just about everything else. The problem with neat explanations is that they engender complacency in those who feel that they have encompassed them. Like we know that the soul is an eternal servant of Krishna, that I’m not this body and my life isn’t meant for sense gratification like the hogs and dogs, but is meant for spiritual enquiry leading to liberation (through devotional service), but what a struggle we, or I, have in properly assimilating that!

I think that Srila Prabhupada was stressing on the point of Free Will, unlike Calvinists or those who believe in predestination, that everything is already decided and is unchangeable. In this attempt to make this point, he didn’t find it expedient (even Prabhupada has a sense of expedience!) to elaborate further, maybe feeling that it was a difficult area better left alone for now, as he did with other areas such as Raganuga Bhakti, Siddha Pranali and such like. Being extremely immature children in the devotional line (does anyone care to dispute this?), Prabhupada didn’t see fit to teach us the Algebra or higher science for now. “Better that they get the basics right; fill in the details later.”

I leave it to your imagination to construe the possible motives of the G.B.C. for forcing their fabricated doctrines upon us, except to add that ironically so many of their members have fallen from Vaikuntha directly, even after enjoying the plenary powers of godhood, after investing themselves with the divine rights of ecclesiastical kings. From right by the altar of God they have fallen, whereas we, their minions, have no doubt materialized out of the non-differentiated brahmajyoti.

Here’s an excerpt from Paradise Lost. Satan descends onto Earth to begin his attempt to seduce innocent man to his side:

• "O For that warning voice, which he who saw the Apocalypse, heard cry in Heaven aloud, then when the Dragon, put to second rout, came furious down to be revenged on men, woe to the inhabitants on Earth! that now, while time was, our first-Parents had been warned the coming of their secret foe, and escaped haply so escaped his mortal snare; for now Satan, now first inflamed with rage, came down, the Tempter ere the Accuser of mankind, to wreck on innocent frail man his loss of that first battle, and his flight to Hell: yet not rejoicing in his speed, though bold, far off and fearless, nor with cause to boast, begins his dire attempt, which nigh the birth now rolling, boils in his tumultuous breast, and like a devilish engine back recoils upon himself; horror and doubt distract his troubled thoughts, and from the bottom stir the Hell within him, for within him Hell he brings, and round about him, nor from Hell one step no more than from himself can fly by change of place: Now conscience wakes despair that slumbered, wakes the bitter memory of what he was, what is, and what must be worse; of worse deeds worse sufferings must ensue. Sometimes towards Eden which now in his view lay pleasant, his grieved look he fixes sad, sometimes towards Heaven and the full-blazing Sun, which now sat high in his meridian tower: then much revolving, thus in sighs began:
  “O thou that with surpassing glory crowned, lookst from thy sole dominion like the god of this new world; at whose sight all the stars hide their diminished heads; to thee I call, but with no friendly voice, and add thy name, O Sun, to tell thee how I hate thy beams that bring to my remembrance from what state I fell, how glorious once above thy sphere; till pride and worse ambition threw me down warring in Heaven against Heaven’s matchless King: Ah wherefore! he deserved no such return from me, whom he created what I was in that bright eminence, and with his good upbraided none; nor was his service hard. What could be less than to afford him praise, the easiest recompense, and pay him thanks, how due! yet all his good proved ill in me, and wrought but malice; lifted up so high I disdained subjection, and thought one step higher would set me highest, and in a moment quit the debt immense of endless gratitude, so burdensome, still paying, still to owe; forgetful what from him I still received, and understood not that a grateful mind by owing owes not, but still pays, at once endebted and discharged; what burden then?
  O had his powerful destiny ordained me some inferior angel, I had stood then happy; no unbounded hope had raised ambition. Yet why not? Some other power as great might have aspired, and me though mean drawn to his part; but other powers as great fell not, but stand unshaken, from within or from without, to all temptations armed. Hadst thou the same free will and power to stand? Thou hadst: whom hast thou then or what to accuse, but Heaven's free love dealt equally to all? Be then his love accursed, since love or hate, to me alike, it deals eternal woe. Nay cursed be thou; since against his thy will chose freely what it now so justly rues. Me miserable! Which way shall I fly infinite wrath, and infinite despair? Which way I fly is Hell; myself am Hell; and in the lowest deep a lower deep still threatening to devour me opens wide, to which the Hell I suffer seems a Heaven. O then at last relent: is there no place left for repentance, none for pardon left? None left but by submission; and that word disdain forbids me, and my dread of shame among the Spirits beneath, whom I seduced with other promises and other vaunts than to submit, boasting I could subdue the Omnipotent. Aye me, they little know how dearly I abide that boast so vain, under what torments inwardly I groan:
  While they adore me on the throne of Hell, with diadem and sceptre high advanced the lower still I fall, only supreme in misery; such joy ambition finds. But say I could repent and could obtain by act of grace my former state; how soon would height recall high thoughts, how soon unsay what feigned submission swore: ease would recant vows made in pain, as violent and void. For never can true reconcilement grow where wounds of deadly hate have peirced so deep: which would but lead me to a worse relapse and heavier fall: so should I purchase dear short intermission bought with double smart. This knows my punisher; therefore as far from granting he, as I from begging peace: All hope excluded thus, behold instead of us outcast, exiled, his new delight, mankind created, and for him this world. So farewell hope, and with hope farewell fear, farewell remorse: all good to me is lost; evil be thou my good; by thee at least divided empire with Heaven's King I hold by thee, and more than half perhaps will reign; as man ere long, and this new world shall know.”

Prabhupada uses words like “rebellious” often in his preaching style, words which strangely occur nowhere in the Vedas. The living soul is defined as being victimised by avidya, or as being bahir-mukha, externally directed, namely away from antaryami, but never is the jiva described as being rebellious as such. Not being a widely read scholar, I stand to be corrected, but no verse or sloka that I know of describes the soul as rebellious: fallen, yes, foolish, yes, entrapped, illusioned, etc. but the idea of rebellion occurs in Prabupada’s purports, not in the texts themselves. Why should that be? You have to ask Prabhupada! I think it is not an unintelligent supposition to assume that Prabhupada has been appealing to our psychological archetypes.

Looking up “rebellion” in my Veda base, this is the only text I found with the word in it:

• In the sixteenth incarnation of the Godhead, the Lord [as Bhrgupati] annihilated the administrative class [ksatriyas] twenty-one times, being angry with them because of their rebellion against the brahmanas [the intelligent class].
  PURPORT
  The ksatriyas, or the administrative class of men, are expected to rule the planet by the direction of the intelligent class of men, who give direction to the rulers in terms of the standard sastras, or the books of revealed knowledge. The rulers carry on the administration according to that direction. Whenever there is disobedience on the part of the ksatriyas, or the administrative class, against the orders of the learned and intelligent brahmanas, the administrators are removed by force from their posts, and arrangement is made for better administration.

OM TAT SAT

[suchandra]

 

How could it be "a catastrophy - like mayavadha?" Mayavada is a false belief system within the material world?

 

 

 

Are you saying that the sastras don't say that the jivas fall from Vaikuntha because "it would delay our going back home to Vaikuntha?" Wow talk about mental speculation and rebellion against real authority!

Quoting sastra, you? So far didn't see you presenting something more precise.

From point of logic it just doesn't make sense when this is repeated again and again that we fall from brahmajyoti, maha-tattva, falling from a fallen position. Besides, Prabhupada says, in brahmajyoti the souls are not Krishna conscious. So how can this be called a falldown, falling from brahmajyoti into the material world?

[Beggar]

 

Quoting sastra, you? So far didn't see you presenting something more precise.

From point of logic it just doesn't make sense when this is repeated again and again that we fall from brahmajyoti, maha-tattva, falling from a fallen position.

 

brahmajyoti - the spiritual effulgence emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord; the all-pervading, indistinct feature of the Absolute.

 

mahat-tattva - the unmanifest aggregate of the material elements.

 

These definitions are based on Jaiva Dharma by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura. The brahmajyoti and the mahat-tattva are not the same thing. Somebody is not doing their homework!

 

 

[suchandra]

 

brahmajyoti - the spiritual effulgence emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord; the all-pervading, indistinct feature of the Absolute.

 

mahat-tattva - the unmanifest aggregate of the material elements.

 

These definitions are based on Jaiva Dharma by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura. The brahmajyoti and the mahat-tattva are not the same thing. Somebody is not doing their homework!

 

 

HG Sri Sriman Kulapavana prabhu recently explained that we start in the brahmajyoti making there the wrong decision although in perfect knowledge and from there arrive at the maha-tattva and then we take birth in a material body. In sum, impressive imagination but weak logic, because there is no perfect knowledge cit in the brahmajyoti.

Remember, in the first verse of Brahma-samhita the word "cit" refers to Lord Krsna's spiritual form. And exactly this cit is absent in the brahman effulgence of sat and ananda.

[Vedesu]

 

Even within ISKCON it seems that about a third of the devotees believe that the jiva falls from Vaikuntha, about a third believes that the jiva falls from the brahmajyoti and about a third are undecided. Despite the on-going debate these per centages and divisions seem fairly constant with very, very few changing their position. All sides in the debate claim that Srila Prabhupada is their authority, but the Fall and Dreamer advocates tend to wrap themselves in the flag of supposed loyalty to Srila Prabhupada and either covertly or overtly allege that the other side is somehow disloyal. One of their ploys is to claim that those who believe in the tatastha origins (brahmajyoti) are somehow impersonalist. But the contradiction is that they also use this srategy against non-ISKCON acaryas who tend to give more detailed information about Krsna's "personal" pastimes. Then, when they hear about such detailed personal descriptions they then make the charge of sahjiyaism. Why would those who are more concerned with the actual pastimes of Krsna be impersonalist because they accept the tatastha origin of soul, while those fall and sleepervadis, who claim to be personalists, have very little interest or understanding of Krsna's pastimes? Isn't that a strange contradiction? And isn't it indeed a major Vaisnava aparadha to claim that those who are strongly fixed in the concept that to serve Krsna in His pastimes with full prema are actually Mayavadis? And what will be the result? One can only assume by simple logic that those who take that unhappy path will be barred from further attraction to the pastimes of the Lord. There but for the grace of God go I.

 

Excellent post. I highlighted in bold the ironic (un)philosophical stance displayed from the fall/sleeper side which you were able to articulate far better than myself. I doubt that they see the irony themselves, and probably nothing we say will change their misfortune. But perhaps the 1/3rd of the Isckon devotees who are still undecided may appreciate what has been expressed above.

[Vedesu]

 

brahmajyoti - the spiritual effulgence emanating from the transcendental body of the Lord; the all-pervading, indistinct feature of the Absolute.

 

mahat-tattva - the unmanifest aggregate of the material elements.

 

These definitions are based on Jaiva Dharma by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura. The brahmajyoti and the mahat-tattva are not the same thing. Somebody is not doing their homework!

 

 

 

Well, the above simple points have been made several times to the same person and if he still doesn't get it, he either doesn't want to get it, or he is not being allowed to get it due to having committed far too many offenses to the Lord's pure devotees.

[Beggar]

SUBJECTIVE EVOLUTION OF CONSCIOUSNESS

Srila Sridhar Mahåråj: ...The soul, coming into material consciousness, must

come through some hazy reflection of consciousness,

cidåbhåsa. Only then can the soul experience material

consciousness. Before pure consciousness evolves to material

consciousness, it will pass through a hazy stage of consciousness

or cidåbhåsa. So in the background of every material

thing, there is a spiritual conception. This cannot but be true.

Dr. Singh: What is cidåbhåsa?

Srila Sridhar Mahåråj: Something like mind. Suppose

consciousness comes to feel matter. When consciousness

is coming to the material world to know the material

world, it has to first pass through material consciousness,

and then it can feel what is matter. According to Darwin’s

theory, matter gradually produces consciousness, but before

producing consciousness it must produce some hazy

consciousness, then mind, and then the soul. But in reality,

it is just the opposite. So subjective evolution parallels

objective or material evolution. But in the evolution of consciousness,

the supersubject is first, then the individual

soul or jiva-subject is next. Then, from the subjective

consciousness of the jivas, matter is produced. But

consciousness must penetrate hazy consciousness to

perceive matter.

I say that the process of evolution moves from the top

downward. The Absolute Reality – if we at all assert that

there is anything which is the absolute reality – must

possess two qualifications. What is that? First, in the words

of Hegel, He must be by Himself: He is his own cause.

Second – and more important to us, He is for Himself: He

exists to fulfill His own purpose. He is not subservient to

any other entity, for then His position would be secondary.

Reality the Absolute is full in Himself. All other things

are coming from Him. The perfect substance already exists.

What appears to us as imperfect comes down according to

our own defective senses.

The imperfect must be dependent upon the perfect,

the ultimate reality. And the imperfect may be so arranged

by Him in order to prove His perfection. To prove the

perfection of the Absolute, there is conditioned and unconditioned,

finite and infinite reality. The defective world

therefore has an indirect relation to the truth.

However, consciousness cannot jump at once into the

conception of matter; it must pass through a process to

come to material consciousness. From the marginal position,

from the verge of the higher eternal potency, evolution and

dissolution of this material world begins. This takes place

only on the outskirts of svarupa-bhakti, which is the system

responsible for the evolution of the spiritual plane, and is an

eternally evolving dynamic whole. It is not that nondifferentiation

is the origin of differentiation. An eternally differentiated

substance exists. That plane is filled with lilå,

dynamic pastimes. If a static thing can be conceived of as

eternal, then why can’t a dynamic thing be conceived of as

eternal? That plane of svarupa-bhakti is fully evolved within.

It is eternal. Evolution and dissolution concern only the

degradation of the subtle spirit to the gross material platform

and his evolution towards perfection. Here there is evolution

and dissolution, but these things do not exist in the eternal

abode of svarupa-bhakti.

[suchandra]

 

Well, the above simple points have been made several times to the same person and if he still doesn't get it, he either doesn't want to get it, or he is not being allowed to get it due to having committed far too many offenses to the Lord's pure devotees.

Nice logic, but you're lacking that in brahmajyoti there's no knowledge, cit.

So you claim that those who have no knowledge should know it better and chose to become candidates for Vaikuntha? And although there's no knowledge in the brahmayjoti the souls are punished severly to go to the maha-tattva? Please start thinking, if there's no knowledge in the brahmajyoti how the souls can make a decision? If you have no keyboard, how can you type?

[theist]

Another thread lost. No respect for the thread stater.

[Beggar]

 

Another thread lost. No respect for the thread stater.

Let their be one thread, the origin of the jiva and let there be one religion, that the jiva came from ????? , and let there be one mantra, "This thread should be closed!":eek:

[suchandra]

 

Another thread lost. No respect for the thread starter.

 

The topic says, Is it true that this is Vishnu's dream? But this is what exactly is being discussed, how did we enter Lord Vishnu's dream.

[theist]

Ever consider starting your own thread on the topic instead of hijacking someone else's thread. Simple cyber courtesy bubba.

[theist]

 

The topic says, Is it true that this is Vishnu's dream? But this is what exactly is being discussed, how did we enter Lord Vishnu's dream.

 

No it's not. How we fall asleep is not the same topic as the nature of the dream encountered in sleep.

[suchandra]

 

Let their be one thread, the origin of the jiva and let there be one religion, that the jiva came from ????? , and let there be one mantra, "This thread should be closed!":eek:

As soon someone is asking how come that although in the brahmajyoti there's no knowledge cit, but still the souls are punished of having no knowledge and to go to the maha-tattva, the thread should be closed?

[Beggar]

 

As soon someone is asking how come that although in the brahmajyoti there's no knowledge cit, but still the souls are punished of having no knowledge and to go to the maha-tattva, the thread should be closed?

The souls who fall down don't make a conscious choice like who to vote for, or something like that it this world. Each jiva already has an innate proclivity to either serve Krsna or Maya. When those jivas manifest their individuality from the unmanifest state that tendency is expressed. But this doesn't mean that there isn't minute free will in the jiva. The tendency to come to this world and exploit is really a manifestation of that minute free will or choice making facility. How it is both a tendency and a choice is difficult to understand since our free will is so minute and in fact is acintya or inconcievable. Since Maya is really Krsna's energy then, it can be said that both classes are actually eternal servants of Krsna. Of course even the jivas who become nitya baddha are the eternal servants of Krsna in their real liberated state. This is why Srila Prabhupada says that if we simply hear that we are the eternal servants of Krsna from a bona fide guru and accept it and agree to work on that plane then we are already liberated.

[Vedesu]

So if you get milk products, milk, then you can prepare so many preparations full of vitamins, which will nourish your brain. Dull brain cannot understand what is spiritual knowledge. Therefore, that Mr. Bernard Shaw, he wrote a book. Perhaps you know it. You Are What You Eat. If you keep your brain dull, then how you can understand? Because without becoming very intelligent man, one cannot understand Krsna consciousness. That is stated in the Caitanya-caritamrta, krsna yei bhaje sei bada catura: "One who takes to Krsna consciousness seriously and perfectly, he must be very, very intelligent." Dull brain cannot accept it. Bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate [bg. 7.19]. So we have to make our brain very clean. And for that purpose you require to drink not very much, at least, one pound or half-pound milk daily. That is essential. But no meat-eating. This is intelligence. (Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.16.19 Hawaii, January 15, 1974)

 

[suchandra]

 

So if you get milk products, milk, then you can prepare so many preparations full of vitamins, which will nourish your brain. Dull brain cannot understand what is spiritual knowledge. Therefore, that Mr. Bernard Shaw, he wrote a book. Perhaps you know it. You Are What You Eat. If you keep your brain dull, then how you can understand? Because without becoming very intelligent man, one cannot understand Krsna consciousness. That is stated in the Caitanya-caritamrta, krsna yei bhaje sei bada catura: "One who takes to Krsna consciousness seriously and perfectly, he must be very, very intelligent." Dull brain cannot accept it. Bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate [bg. 7.19]. So we have to make our brain very clean. And for that purpose you require to drink not very much, at least, one pound or half-pound milk daily. That is essential. But no meat-eating. This is intelligence. (Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.16.19 Hawaii, January 15, 1974)

 

Nice message for theist prabhu - I drink milk, but thanks for reminding.