Ahimsa in Krsna consciousness

[theist]

 

Another point is that trees also should be given protection. During its lifetime, a tree should not be cut for industrial enterprises. In Kali-yuga, trees are indiscriminately and unnecessarily cut for industry, in particular for paper mills that manufacture a profuse quantity of paper for the publication of demoniac propaganda, nonsensical literature, huge quantities of newspapers and many other paper products. This is a sign of a demoniac civilization. The cutting of trees is prohibited unless necessary for the service of Lord Vishnu. Yajnarthat karmano'nyatra loko'yam karma-bandhanah: [bg. 3.9]) "work done as a sacrifice for Lord Vishnu must be performed, otherwise work binds one to this material world." But if the paper mills stop producing paper, one may argue, how can our ISKCON literature be published? The answer is that the paper mills should manufacture paper only for the publication of ISKCON literature because ISKCON literature is published for the service of Lord Vishnu. This literature clarifies our relationship with Lord Vishnu, and therefore the publication of ISKCON literature is the performance of yajna. Yajnarthat karmano 'nyatra loko 'yam karma-bandhanah [bg. 3.9]). Yajna must be performed, as indicated by the superior authorities. The cutting of trees simply to manufacture paper for the publication of unwanted literature is the greatest sinful act. SB 7.2.12 purport

Some conceptions of ahimsa only go so far as to think it extends to other humans. Like say many civil rights movements see it only this far.

 

Others include some animals like pets, the ASPCA comes to mind. They kill and eat cows, chickens and pigs by the billions but treat their pets as children.

 

Then there are the vegans who want to include all animals and generally all humans also (except the unborn usually as most vegans if asked support abortion rights). Most would include trees if asked but it is not seen as that important.

 

So what I am trying to get at is there are different levels of practice of ahimsa in society but the fullest I've seen is in the Krishna conscious conception where everyone is left alone in peace and used only for Krishna's service and then only in the least harmful way possible and as necessary.

 

The question I want to raise is are we practicing ahimsa to the best level possible when we regularly use items like silk, commercial milk and honey?

 

We have a commercial milk thread going already so what about silk and honey? Should we as individuals avoid these products in our personal lives in the name out of concern for the harm that is done to other living beings by using them?

[suchandra]

 

Some conceptions of ahimsa only go so far as to think it extends to other humans. Like say many civil rights movements see it only this far.

 

Others include some animals like pets, the ASPCA comes to mind. They kill and eat cows, chickens and pigs by the billions but treat their pets as children.

 

Then there are the vegans who want to include all animals and generally all humans also (except the unborn usually as most vegans if asked support abortion rights). Most would include trees if asked but it is not seen as that important.

 

So what I am trying to get at is there are different levels of practice of ahimsa in society but the fullest I've seen is in the Krishna conscious conception where everyone is left alone in peace and used only for Krishna's service and then only in the least harmful way possible and as necessary.

 

The question I want to raise is are we practicing ahimsa to the best level possible when we regularly use items like silk, commercial milk and honey?

 

We have a commercial milk thread going already so what about silk and honey? Should we as individuals avoid these products in our personal lives in the name out of concern for the harm that is done to other living beings by using them?

Arjuna surely had very high understanding of ahimsa, but finally he understood, real ahimsa is to follow Krishna's instructions.

 

Tamāla Krishna: “Arjuna said: O killer of Madhu, Krishna, how can I counterattack with arrows in battle personalities like Bhisma and Drona, who are worthy of my worship?”

 

"Prabhupada: Of course, all explanation are not there. Here, these words, Krishna addressed Arjuna, “chastiser of enemies.” And Arjuna addresses Krishna, “Madhusūdana,” or the killer of the demon Madhu. “Yes, You are addressing me as chastiser of enemy, but do You think my grandfather, my teacher, they are my enemies? You killed demon Madhu, therefore Your name is Madhusūdana, but You are asking me to kill my grandfather and teacher.” That is the hint. “It is all right that Your name is Madhusūdana. You killed one demon whose name was Madhu, but You are asking me, Bhīṣmasūdana? Bhīṣma is my grandfather. And Droṇasūdana?” Sūdana means killer. “So how can I be that?” That is the answer.

 

Tamāla Krishna: “It is better to live in this world by begging than to live at the cost of the lives of great souls who are my teachers. Even though they are avaricious, they are nonetheless superiors. If they are killed, then our spoils will be tainted with blood.”

 

Bhagavad-gītā 2.1-10 and Talk

by His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda

Los Angeles, November 25, 1968

681125BG.LA

 

 

 

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[yogesh]

to ponder about.

 

You made me think a little deeper.

 

Since we are Vegetarians/Vegans what about the pesticides farmers use to kill the insects inorder to produce the harvest?

 

If you buy from "organic growers/farmers" what guarantee is there that the grower has not harmed the insects/pests inorder to produce the harvest?

 

For example some organic farmers put bee-hives in their orchards so they harvest the honey while the bees pollinate their fruit trees. They get the best of both worlds.

 

Now you buy the fruits and not the honey from the grower but what about the harm the grower has done to the bees.

 

So have you not indirectly contributed to harming of the bees by buying fruits from the "organic grower".

 

Just some points I thought about.

 

Hmmm Calculating the Karmic Bank Balance....Yamraj sitting at IBM & Chitragupta (Yamraj's secretary) in the background loading your karmic tape.

 

 

 

 

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Jay Gauranga (Lord Chaitanya's Moon is rising)

 

Hare Krsna/Krishna

 

Jay Sirla Prabhupada

[xexon]

To become overly concerned about ahimsa is like fixating on all the tiny little creatures living in your eyelashes.

 

Ahimsa comes about naturally as compassion unfolds. When compassion reaches the limits of creation and all things are seen as an extension of yourself, it becomes your body.

 

You don't want to harm your body, but at the same time you can't keep track of everything living on it either.

 

Live with awareness. Do the best you can. Learning is composed of both mistakes and successes.

 

 

x

[theist]

 

to ponder about.

 

You made me think a little deeper.

 

Since we are Vegetarians/Vegans what about the pesticides farmers use to kill the insects inorder to produce the harvest?

 

If you buy from "organic growers/farmers" what guarantee is there that the grower has not harmed the insects/pests inorder to produce the harvest?

 

For example some organic farmers put bee-hives in their orchards so they harvest the honey while the bees pollinate their fruit trees. They get the best of both worlds.

 

Now you buy the fruits and not the honey from the grower but what about the harm the grower has done to the bees.

 

So have you not indirectly contributed to harming of the bees by buying fruits from the "organic grower".

 

Just some points I thought about.

 

 

 

<!--[if !vml]--><!--[endif]-->

Jay Gauranga (Lord Chaitanya's Moon is rising)

 

Hare Krsna/Krishna

 

Jay Sirla Prabhupada

 

 

I never knew of the fruit growers honey trick. I still can avoid honey easy enough. I use agave instead, But even that surely kills some creatures along the way. Honey to me seems more direct. It has bothered me ever since one devotee saw me buying some bee pollen and mentioned how it was harvested at great loss to the bees. Honey harvest also must kill some bees. Although I must admit I quit using honey as I learned it was the regurgitation from the bees stomachs. It just lost it appeal at that point.

 

But besides that you mentioned how the bees do so much for us in pollenating our fruit trees. Do we as individuals need to take their honey too?

I am not suggesting a religious prohibition against honey. There are enough rules that aren't followed now. Just interested in what cutoff point people establish for themselves.

 

Silk is said to be ritually pure. This I have to challenge. What is the meaning of ritually pure silk considering how much suffering went into it's production. I think the purity is lost in the suffering caused.

 

There should be restriction placed on silk usage IMO akin to leather.

 

For an alternative there is ahimsa silk.

 

Interesting I read somewhere in the SB that some brahmanas take a vow against tilling the soil due to the fact that small living entities in the soil will be killed. I think it was a vow. Been a long time.

 

So it seems some things take on a deeper relevance according to the mode of nature one is in.

[theist]

 

To become overly concerned about ahimsa is like fixating on all the tiny little creatures living in your eyelashes.

 

Ahimsa comes about naturally as compassion unfolds. When compassion reaches the limits of creation and all things are seen as an extension of yourself, it becomes your body.

 

You don't want to harm your body, but at the same time you can't keep track of everything living on it either.

 

Live with awareness. Do the best you can. Learning is composed of both mistakes and successes.

 

 

x

 

Yes of course. I use mouthwash to kill the nasty little critters trying to take over my gums.

 

But where is the cutoff point for you? How do you establish that point?

[xexon]

It depends on how much attachment you have to that process.

 

There have been yogis who walk with attention so that nothing ends up beneath their feet. Yet, there are also yogis who seem to live reckless lives and swat at bugs like everybody else.

 

Insects are my personal cutoff point. Fish would be testing the limits.

 

Goes back to karmic debt. How much do you want to pay at the checkout line?

 

 

x

[theist]

Apparently the vedas teach that one can kill in sense defense. Whimsical killing can never be good for one's spiritual life.

[Pretender]

Greetings Everyone! Please excuse me for interjecting into your discussion.

 

No doubt there are many possible interpretations of ahimsa in Krishna Consciousness. When I wrote about ahimsa in "Pretender", I was primarily referring to consciously avoiding inconsiderate meanness or cruelty towards all other embodied beings(people, plants, critters) as much as possible, but especially in the name of religion (which actually proves whether or not one is really religious being that ahimsa is considered a sub-religious principle). For me it's a mood with which I sincerely hope to suffuse my existence with and not necessarily a specific separate teaching or practice per se. As embodied beings it is our basic unconscious exploitative nature to nurture our physical body at the mortal expense of many other living entities from the sub-atomic, microbial level on up to the vegetables we eat, etc.(I'm not vegan but consider myself simply vegetarian white trash) Personally, the way that I have tried to harmonize this sacrifice of other living entities so that my body might continue living is to hopefully make my life into something truly mutually beneficial to others and thereby worthwhile to the world by real internal development while striving to be unconditionally friendly and helpful in my many dealings with other embodied beings.

 

Because I live in the woods off of a river in a subtropic climate, unfortunately there may be times when I am unable to avoid harming other living creatures like mosquitos or horseflies. Or the carpenter ants that would like to eat my woodframe house. In such cases I might at least try to feel apologetic for causing suffering to another in my unavoidable violent display. "Sorry little brother. Better life next time." And also be fully willing to bear the karmic brunt of my harmful act towards another living being. As I have made them suffer, so I must also suffer. Sometimes I may have to kill, but at least I shouldn't feel good about it.

 

Sometimes I wish we could just start with upadharma or common sense religion and grow from there. Possibly, serious spiritual issues might be less vehemently addressed as the universal human nature problems which they really are from a more neutral ground of elemental spirituality, with humility and respect for others as a fundamental salient point of real collective spiritual progress. For the real benefit of all suffering souls of this world.

[theist]

 

Greetings Everyone! Please excuse me for interjecting into your discussion.

 

It's your discussion too soul.