theist Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 While I make make a claim of being "God", I am fully aware of the limitations of my human self in it's ability to express the totality of what God is. Your limitation is much more than that. You lack the ability to BE the totality of what God is. So drop the claim to be God little man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inedible Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 Your limitation is much more than that. You lack the ability to BE the totality of what God is. So drop the claim to be God little man. Why does it bother you so much? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 Why does it bother you so much? I can't speak for Theist but I can say that the concept that everyone is God is tantamount to saying that there is no Supreme Being. If one has the mentality that everyone is God (in both quality and quantity) then there is no possibility of real Krsna bhakti entering the heart. If one has even a minute drop of Krsna bhakti, just the thought of such an impersonal conception can block the flow of such bhakti. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 Yep. What beggar said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xexon Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 The problem that arises here is I appear to be insulting people's view of what they believe God "is". God is everything. Without any exception whatsoever. When you use terms like "he" or "him", you are already reducing God down to your own level. A Saint reduces that down even further. A human body with "God" inside. When you take water out of the ocean and freeze it, it will assume any shape you desire. But when it melts and returns to its natural state. You can pour it back into the ocean. Where did it go? Are human souls not the same? Some souls sit on the beach, apart from what made them. Some souls are wading around with water up to their knees. And some souls swim, with the ocean all around them. x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 God is everything. Without any exception whatsoever. Yet God is also more than everything which is acintya or inconceivable. When you use terms like "he" or "him", you are already reducing God down to your own level. Then where does the hes or shes in this world come from? As above so below. A Saint reduces that down even further. A human body with "God" inside. God is already in every human, animal and plant body as the Paramatma or Supersoul. The Supersoul is already in every atom also. When you take water out of the ocean and freeze it, it will assume any shape you desire. But when it melts and returns to its natural state. You can pour it back into the ocean. Where did it go? This is a classic advaitan or brahma-vadi example. There is also the example of the green bird in the green tree. From a distance there appears to be only green. When we get a little closer we can see that there is individual trees and when we are even closer we can see the green birds in the green trees. Are human souls not the same? All jiva souls including humans and non-humans are made up of consciousness but they are eternally individuals as is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhaktajan Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 Every vector point in creation is possessed by an individual being [moving or non-moving]. Each vector point in creation is indivisable, unique and imbued with its own sensibilities [rasa]. Each vector point surveys it's own sphere of influence. The grand sphere of influence, composing a grander symphony than our ears are privy to hear, emanating from within the transcendent taboranacle, is enjoyed only by the elite top figurehead of all the little infintestimal aggragate particles. In the choir some of us individual beings think: "We are not-good enough for them." Or, they think that "Any club that would have me as a member must be filled with half-wits". What ever you do, xenon, -- Just do the best job you know how to be "your allotted job". working to save the world for unlimited panir and burfi, Bhaktajan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xexon Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 Eternally Individuals? No. For as long as the current creative cycle goes on, yes. But eternally, no. Further, is it not mentioned somewhere that the creator, at the end of the creative cycle, eventually reabsorbs all of creation back into itself? All the manifest God is poured back into the unmanifest God so that only the unmanifest God remains? Where is individuality then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 Where is individuality then? Dormant, but their karma remains and at the point of the next creation, everything will be reactivated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhaktajan Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 Eternally Individuals? No. For as long as the current creative cycle goes on, yes. But eternally, no. Further, is it not mentioned somewhere that the creator, at the end of the creative cycle, eventually reabsorbs all of creation back into itself? All the manifest God is poured back into the unmanifest God so that only the unmanifest God remains? Where is individuality then? Allow me the chance to test a method of discerning individuality: Xenon, You are a grand fool. You are the Himalayas of stupidity incarnate. Your birth is a sign that the world will proceed into darker and darker fearsomeness--all due to individuals as your self. --end of test-- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 Allow me the chance to test a method of discerning individuality: Xenon, You are a grand fool. You are the Himalayas of stupidity incarnate. Your birth is a sign that the world will proceed into darker and darker fearsomeness--all due to individuals as your self. --end of test-- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yogesh Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 Eternally Individuals? No. For as long as the current creative cycle goes on, yes. But eternally, no. Further, is it not mentioned somewhere that the creator, at the end of the creative cycle, eventually reabsorbs all of creation back into itself? All the manifest God is poured back into the unmanifest God so that only the unmanifest God remains? Where is individuality then? According to Bhagavad Gita Chpter2 verse 12 Lord Krsna states: "Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any cease to be." Here Lord Krsna states clearly that individuality can never be destroyed. It seems to me that you are under the impression that individuality is a material creation. If it is so then what is the value of Lord Krsna's instructions in the Bhagavad Gita? If we are just temporary beings with no individuality then why bother with being subservient to the Supreme. We can all be Gods (Dogs)!!! How crazy is that!!! No thank You. I will not be absorbed into the collective. I have my individuality which is a gift from God to be used to serve him with the free will he has given me. Hare Krsna/Krishna Jay Sirla Prabhupada Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xexon Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 Thank you. I appreciate your creativity. Guess where you got that creativity from? Its inheirited. That little god spark called a soul is the same as the big god spark that creates you and the heavens above this human world. x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 Eternally Individuals? No. For as long as the current creative cycle goes on, yes. But eternally, no. Further, is it not mentioned somewhere that the creator, at the end of the creative cycle, eventually reabsorbs all of creation back into itself? All the manifest God is poured back into the unmanifest God so that only the unmanifest God remains? Where is individuality then? If a soul is indestructible, indivisible, eternal, etc. then it's inherent feature of individuality that we all observe directly must also be eternal and unchanging. What is real and true, exists forever. The apparent loss of our individuality in Brahman is akin to an individual voice being lost in a perfect chorus, where all voices are singing exactly the same note. Liberation in Vaikuntha is our voice singing it's own note in the perfect harmony and balance with all the other voices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xexon Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 Does a raindrop cry when it hits the ocean? You have to go further back than even before Krishna. If scriptures are all you have, the road will end for you there, with Krishna. x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inedible Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 I can't speak for Theist but I can say that the concept that everyone is God is tantamount to saying that there is no Supreme Being. If one has the mentality that everyone is God (in both quality and quantity) then there is no possibility of real Krsna bhakti entering the heart. If one has even a minute drop of Krsna bhakti, just the thought of such an impersonal conception can block the flow of such bhakti. Maybe I don't have a problem with devotion to an impersonal Krishna. It is like saying I like women in general and yet I married my wife. There doesn't have to be a conflict here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 Does a raindrop cry when it hits the ocean? you have to be that raindrop to know the answer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 Does a raindrop cry when it hits the ocean? You have to go further back than even before Krishna. If scriptures are all you have, the road will end for you there, with Krishna. There is no "before Krishna". Krishna and the living entities are eternal. Srila Prabhupada: So we change body; otherwise we are eternal. Na hanyate hanyamane sarire [bg. 2.20]. This is the information we get, that after this destruction of this material body, the eternal soul is never destroyed. Na hanyate hanyamane sarire [bg. 2.20]. We get another body. The same example: the child gets the body of a boy, boy gets the... Therefore we are eternal. And what is God? He is also eternal. So nityo nityananam. We are eternal, we are many, and God is also eternal, but He is one. He is singular number. Not that all of us, we are God. That is nonsense. We are part and parcel of God, but we are not as powerful as God. Anyone can understand it very easily. They are claiming to become God. So does he think that he is equal in power with God? No. That is foolishness. Mudha. God is one, but we are... We are also eternal, God is also eternal, but we are many. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 Srila Prabhupada: So anyway, after many pious activities, one may come to the platform of bhagavad-bhajana. catur-vidha bhajante mam janah sukrtino 'rjuna arto jijnasur artharthi jnani ca bharatarsabha Four classes of men. Those who are distressed, arta, suffering... Everyone is suffering, but those who are acute with suffering... Artah artharthi. Those who are in need of some money. Artha, jijnasuh. And inquisitive what is God. And jnani, means actually those who are in knowledge. They are searching after. Four classes of men begin bhajana. Not the others. Opposite numbers are na mam duskrtino mudhah prapadyante naradhamah [bg. 7.15]. Those who are duskrtina, background is simply sinful activities, they cannot take. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhaktajan Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 Caution: I.L.T. - Individuality "Selflessness" Litmus Test . . . Allow me the chance to test a method of discerning individuality "Selflessness": General Public, You are a grand child. Your birth(s) are a sign that the world will proceed into further and further birthday parties--all due to individuals as your self. --end of test-- Bhaktajan asks: No individual liberty needed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bija Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 dear xexon and kulapavana, "you have to be that raindrop to know the answer" posted by kulapavana imagine a beautiful slow still photograph...beautiful photography...high resolution:).... would it be nice to see that single raindrop meet the ocean....at the moment of impact....the dynamic of the color...the explosion and the intensity! the diversity and the art that may be possible for each drop? or would it be nicer to see that raindrop disappear, into the unlimited ocean of vastness? and stillness? or would it be nice to see the exquisite raindrop all by itself? it's uniqueness, its individual beauty? maybe the answer lies in our own disposition and inclination of what is beautiful. we have freedom to choose what is beautiful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 Maybe I don't have a problem with devotion to an impersonal Krishna. It is like saying I like women in general and yet I married my wife. There doesn't have to be a conflict here. Why should Krishna be impersonal? The Supreme has an impersonal aspect, brahman, but when we talk of Krishna we mean the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xexon Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 You have to be both the ocean and the raindrop. The difference exist only in the mind. Creation is nothing more than infinite forms out of the same clay. The mind seldom pays attention to anything other than the forms. It becomes fascinated with it's ability to create them. It seldom checks to see where the clay comes from. x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhaktajan Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 Maybe I don't have a problem with devotion to an impersonal Krishna. It is like saying I like women in general and yet I married my wife. There doesn't have to be a conflict here. AHHHHH. Ah. Ahh? Nope, I, I, I haven't the gumption . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted March 25, 2008 Report Share Posted March 25, 2008 God is everything. Without any exception whatsoever. Krsna says in the Gita, "In one sense I am everything yet I am independent." IOW's Krsna is beyond just being everything. You know xexeon you seem to be really hung up on us not understanding you. The truth is we do understand you and disagree with whtat you are saying. Ever consider perhaps you are not understanding us? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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