What is the nature of the Viraja River?

[CCC]

What it is inside the viraja river?

 

are there marginal universes?

[Sarva gattah]

'Between the spiritual and the material world is a body of water known as the river Virajā. This water is generated from the bodily perspiration of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is known as Vedāńga. Thus the river flows. 'Beyond the river Virajā is the spiritual nature, which is indestructible, eternal, inexhaustible and unlimited. It is the supreme abode, consisting of three fourths of the Lord's opulences. It is known as paravyoma, the spiritual sky. On the other side of the river Virajā is the external abode, which is full of unlimited universes, each containing unlimited atmospheres. The abode of the external energy is called Devī-dhāma, and its inhabitants are the conditioned souls. It is there that the material energy, Durgā, resides with many opulent maidservants.

'

 

virajā — the river between the spiritual world and the material world; CC Madhya 19.153

 

virajā nadī — is a river known as Virajā; CC Madhya 21.50

[theist]

What is the distinction, if any, between this viraja river and the brahmajyoti?

[Sarva gattah]

 

What is the distinction, if any, between this viraja river and the brahmajyoti?

 

 

"The Virajā, or Causal Ocean, is the border between the spiritual and the material world. The material energy is situated on one shore of that ocean, and it cannot enter onto the other shore, which is the spiritual sky". Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 20.269

 

"That original Personality of Godhead, named Sankarshana, first lies down in the river Virajā, which serves as a border between the material and the spiritual world. As Kāranābdhiśāyī Vishnu, He is the original cause of the material creation". Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Madhya 20.268

 

Srila Prabhupada - "In the Padmottara-khanda (225.57) it is stated that the material energy and the spiritual energy are separated by water known as the Viraja River. That river flows from the perspiration of the first purusa incarnation. On one bank of the Viraja is the eternal nature, unlimited and all-blissful, called the spiritual sky (or Brahmajyoti), and this is the spiritual kingdom, or the kingdom of God". TLC 9

Srila Prabhupada - "In the effulgent rays of the spiritual sky there are innumerable planets floating. The Brahmajyoti emanates from the supreme abode, Krsnaloka, and the anandamaya-cinmaya planets, which are not material, float in those rays." BG Intro

Comment -"The Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti is divided up 3/4 Vaikuntha planets headed by Goloka Vrndavana and 1/4 material planets (mahat-tattva) There is also the impersonal aspect of the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti made up of a collective of souls who have become dormant or inactive"

 

Srila Prabhupada - "My Lord, You are unlimited, and no one has estimated the extent of Your potencies. I think that even You do not know the range of Your potential energies. Unlimited planets float in the sky just like atoms, and great Vedantists, who are engaged in research to find You, discover that everything is different from You. Thus they finally decide that You are everything." (Bhag. 10.87.41)

 

Srila Prabhupada - " The spiritual world has been calculated to comprise three-fourths of the energies of the Supreme Lord, and the material world is said to comprise one-fourth of His energy, but no one can understand what this three-fourths is, since even this material universe, which comprises only one-fourth of His energy, cannot be described.

 

Trying to convey to Sanatana Gosvami something of the extent of one-fourth of Krsna's energy, Caitanya Mahaprabhu cited an incident from Srimad-Bhagavatam in which Brahma, the lord of the universe, came to see Krsna at Dvaraka.

 

When Brahma approached Krsna, the doorman informed Krsna that Brahma had arrived to see Him. Upon hearing this, Krsna inquired as to which Brahma had come, and the doorman returned to Brahma and asked, "Which Brahma are you? Krsna has asked." TLC

[CCC]

Causal Ocean

==================================shore

_-__-_-_Viraja River-__-__-_

==================================shore

Brahmajyoti

 

 

is this ok?

[Beggar]

Srila Narayana Maharaja:

In the spiritual world there is svarupa-sakti, but there is no influence of maya-sakti. What to speak of the spiritual world, Mayadevi cannot even go to the Viraja River, the dividing line between the spiritual world and material world.

The Viraja river divides the material world from spiritual world but, it touches both the worlds and thus it must be tatastha. Vi-raja literaly mean no rajas or passion or no influence the material modes.

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja:

We should know that any example or analogy of this world cannot fully explain the transcendental world. Some examples can give us an idea, like, "Krsna is beautiful and black, like a cloud or like a tamal tree." It is not possible, however, to totally describe the transcendental world by any mundane worldly examples. Examples are given to express some idea, but there is nothing in this world that can fully compare with Krsna. Someone may ask, "Can you tell me where is the moon?" Another person will reply, "You can see it on the branch." The moon is not on the branch; it is millions of miles away. Still, some idea was given. The logic used to understand what is not within our understanding is thus called 'sakha-candra nyaya,' the logic of the moon on the branch.

By doing bhajana, by daily chanting Hare Krsna and hearing hari-katha in the correct process, with very strong belief, then, according to your advancement in bhajana, you can realize all the truths regarding this world and that absolute transcendental world. Logic will not satisfy you. One logical argument will defeat all other arguments, and then another logical argument will come and defeat all the previous arguments. Mundane logic and argument have no existence in the spiritual world.

[Kulapavana]

 

What it is inside the viraja river?

 

 

Viraja River is spiritual. It is a mighty stream of living entities swirling around the cloud where the material world is formed. Some chose to enter the cloud, some chose to remain in the viraja, and some move towards the Vaikuntha planets.

[Sarva gattah]

The Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti is divided up 3/4 Vaikuntha planets headed by Goloka Vrndavana and 1/4 material planets (mahat-tattva)

 

There is also the impersonal aspect of the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti made up of a collective of souls who have become dormant or inactive.

 

This is also the case of the Virajā, or Causal Ocean that is also full of dormant baddha-jivas that have entered into a temporary state of inactivity inbetween the Vaikuntha and the material world."

[Beggar]

 

There is also the impersonal aspect of the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti made up of a collective of souls who have become dormant or inactive.

 

But the English word "become" is a concept within time like "manifesting", so also the word "previously". So now you selectively choose when the eternal or "from the viewpoint of within time" aspect fits your agenda? I now believe what Srila Prabhupada meant with his "Crow and Tal Fruit Logic" analogy is that both can be true. But for us a conditioned souls falling terribly short in the execution of our sadhana bhakti in a way nothing that we really "know" is true because it is jnana (due to our conditioning having the quality of empiric knowledge) rather than vijnana or realized transcendental knowledge. Arguing one side or the other with a vengeance will not lead to vijnana only enmity and offenses.

[theist]

This is where I have been hung up on this question. The brahmajyoti is consciousness. The material world is non-consciousness. How can there be a third category lying in between them that is not one or the other?

[Kulapavana]

 

This is where I have been hung up on this question. The brahmajyoti is consciousness. The material world is non-consciousness. How can there be a third category lying in between them that is not one or the other?

 

It is not a third category. It is an area where these two energies meet.

 

Actually, matter is a final state of transformation of a certain spiritual energy of Krsna. He enters matter as Supersoul so that His consciousness is there as well.

 

On the most basic level, matter is not even atoms, protons, electrons, or neutrons. It is just a wave, a vibration that to us feels like solid stuff. Just like satellite signal received on your TV is perceived as movies or news.

[Sarva gattah]

 

This is where I have been hung up on this question. The brahmajyoti is consciousness. The material world is non-consciousness. How can there be a third category lying in between them that is not one or the other?

 

Srila Prabhupada- "The supreme knowledge of Krsna is exhibited in three different energies -

1. internal,

2.marginal and

3.external.

1. By virtue of His internal energy, He exists in Himself with His spiritual paraphernalia.

2.By means of His marginal energy (tatastha sakti), He exhibits Himself as the living entities.

3.And by means of His Lifeless external energy which includes all bodily costumes or vessels the marginal living entities wears while choosing to be ignorant of KRSNA, He exhibits Himself as material energy. (also known as the mahat-tattva)

 

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by theist

The brahmajyoti is consciousness.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

 

Individual consciousness (the marginal living entities) are in Vaikuntha aspect of the Spiritual Sky or Brahmajyoti serving Krishna (the Supreme form of the internal energy) but also the marginal living entities individual consciousness can be echoed or extended to be confined under the cover of matter (contained in material bodily vessels that belong to the external energies of the Lord)

 

Further more, the marginal living entity can echo it's consciousness to be dormant and inactive. (Neither serving the internal or being covered by the external (mahat-tattva) lifeless vessels).

 

The living (inherently active) Brahman effulgence or Brahmajyoti IS the unlimited individual living entities that includes the internal Vishnu-tattva's Vaikuntha planets. These eternal abodes surround Krsna's Goloka Vrndavana CENTRAL PLANET. However, in one corner of the Brahman effulgence is the material (external lifeless energy) creation of Maha-Vishnu known as the mahat-tattva that becomes an outer covering or costume to all the marginal living entities that visIt there.

 

It is ONLY the dormant dreamless inactive conscious state of Krsna's living entities that are the impersonal aspect of the Brahman or Brahmajyoti. (Neither serving the internal or being covered by the external (mahat-tattva) lifeless vessels).

[theist]

 

It is not a third category. It is an area where these two energies meet.

 

 

 

This doesn't answer the question though. There is a property line between one man's land and his neighbors. However there is no third energy that constitutes that property line.

 

You are saying there is a distinct area that separates the spiritual world from the material so the question remains; what does that area consite of?

[Sarva gattah]

 

what does that area consite of?

 

It doesn't, it is simply a state of consciousness

[gHari]

How much can we infer about Lord Vishnu's perspiration? Did He design our bodily vessels to explain His own nature to us? Does the perspiration expel contaminants? Does it contain jiva souls like our perspiration? Is it like a by-product as opposed to His form proper?

 

It would seem a guy could spend this entire life exploring this river.

[Kulapavana]

 

You are saying there is a distinct area that separates the spiritual world from the material so the question remains; what does that area consite of?

 

Viraja River consists of living entities, just like the rest of brahmajyoti. The concept of the river is given to us because it suggests motion, or activity, while the rest of brahmajyoti is quite static. This River is full of living entities in which there is a stirring of a desire. That is what makes it different. The concept of Lord Vishnu's perspiration is there to give us a sense of origin (we are sparks emanating from the fire, or droplets of water emanating from Lord Vishnu's body).

[theist]

 

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote --> Quote:

<table border="0" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="0" width="100%"> <tbody><tr> <td style="border: 1px solid rgb(102, 102, 102); padding-left: 3ex; padding-right: 3ex;" bgcolor="#e0e0e0"> Originally Posted by theist

what does that area consite of?

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It doesn't, it is simply a state of consciousness

 

 

This is what I believe also and it dovetails into Kulapavanas explanation in the next post.

[theist]

 

Viraja River consists of living entities, just like the rest of brahmajyoti. The concept of the river is given to us because it suggests motion, or activity, while the rest of brahmajyoti is quite static. This River is full of living entities in which there is a stirring of a desire. That is what makes it different. The concept of Lord Vishnu's perspiration is there to give us a sense of origin (we are sparks emanating from the fire, or droplets of water emanating from Lord Vishnu's body).

 

This is what I believe also although I can't point it out specifically in any thing I have read. Perhaps you can.

 

That stirring of desire is the jiva reawakening to personal life similar to a person coming back from a coma.

 

It is also from this position that the jiva can express it's desire to be the servant or master/prime enjoyer dictatng it's destination of Vaikuntha or material life.

[Sarva gattah]

 

That stirring of desire is the jiva reawakening to personal life similar to a person coming back from a coma. It is also from this position that the jiva can express it's desire to be the servant or master/prime enjoyer dictatng it's destination of Vaikuntha or material life.

 

And before that . . . . . .

 

The Virajā, or Causal Ocean IS the dormant baddha-jivas that have entered into a temporary state of inactivity inbetween the Vaikuntha and the material world that are eventually empregnated back into 'vessels of material nature'."

 

What does in between Vaikuntha and the mahat-tattva mean?

 

Answer - The jiva is not REALLY in the middle, but rather this context of 'IN THE MIDDLE' really means, the jiva is not actively aware of themselves in Vaikuntha nor actively attempting to satisfy their material desires in material vessels within the mahat-tattva creation of Maha-Vishnu.

 

The Virajā, or Causal Ocean is a gateway or highway manifested by Maha-Vishnu that gives shelter and is similtaniously a state of inactive or dormant consciousness that the living entity desired while previously embodied in the mahat-tattva before they achieved this dormant or dreamless state of consciousness. One does not come from the Causal Ocean, they enter it.

 

viraja — spotless intelligence, who are altogether free from material attachments

 

The Vraj river, Causal Ocean is not where the jivas originate, but is an inactive impersonal conscious state of individuality achieved by their own conscious condition when they are fed up with possessing temporary material bodily vessels in the mahat-tattva, and also unable to recognise their eternal home is Vaikuntha. In this way the jiva is not REALLY in the middle, rather this context of 'IN THE MIDDLE' really means the jiva is not actively aware of themselves in Vaikuntha nor active in material vessels with in the mahat-tattva.

 

Hare Krsna