Beggar Posted March 28, 2008 Report Share Posted March 28, 2008 All these this guru over that guru "debates" and wars is an incredible disturbance. Every sane person will agree, but where is that going on, on this thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suchandra Posted March 28, 2008 Report Share Posted March 28, 2008 As you know, we've all forgotten: We chew the cud again and again Well yes, just one more point - since capacity to understand what is genuine guru-tattva is rather absent we see what is presently happening, transcendental knowledge is so powerful that all these nonbelievers are now forced to accept. Just like when the Sun rises, you might believe or not believe, you're forced to accept light. When people don't accept that someone is just a priest and not Jesus what happens? At one point they're forced to see reality and this is where we are right now. The "current link philosophy" in support of "voted in successor acaryas", with a "less then liberated guru thesis" and a "minimum qualification theory", who still believes in this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted March 28, 2008 Report Share Posted March 28, 2008 Every sane person will agree, but where is that going on, on this thread? I think he just refers to what is going on among devotees in general who discuss this issue. Looks like the most vocal and "uncompromising" guru debaters have not yet ruined this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted March 28, 2008 Report Share Posted March 28, 2008 I think he just refers to what is going on among devotees in general who discuss this issue. Looks like the most vocal and "uncompromising" guru debaters have not yet ruined this thread. Yes. let's keep our fingers and toes crossed (western mudras for good luck) and hope they don't show up... at least for awhile. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted March 28, 2008 Report Share Posted March 28, 2008 I prefer membership in another camp then those listed above... the camp of the unaffiliated. How about simultaneously, inconceivably both affiliated and unaffiliated? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted March 28, 2008 Report Share Posted March 28, 2008 When people don't accept that someone is just a priest and not Jesus what happens? At one point they're forced to see reality and this is where we are right now. Yes, this is precisely the case here. Real life correcting the popular mythology and wishful thinking. I read a few pages of Srila Sridhara Maharaja's book in 1988 and knew right away he was a genuine guru of major caliber, regardless of what the "prevailing wisdom" in our movement was. My heart was moved and so was my intelligence. Few months later I met Kirtanananda for the first time and after a relatively brief period (few hours) of observation and conversation I concluded that he was not just a bogus guru, but a very dangerous man. I trusted my instincts, I trusted the little voice in my heart, and it served me well in both of these cases. But this method is subjective. Time however showed us all that Sridhara Maharaja was indeed a great saint, while Kirtanananda was outed as a fake and a criminal. We just have to be sincere, honest, we need to listen to our heart and quit fooling ourselves into believing in things that clearly do not make much sense, like a retired sannyasi. Intellectual dishonesty with ourselves and with others always comes back to haunt us. If it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck - it must be a duck... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted March 28, 2008 Report Share Posted March 28, 2008 How about simultaneously, inconceivably both affiliated and unaffiliated? Yeah that's sounds good. My allegiance is to the Gaudiya Vaisnava vision of God. I may not to everything your gurus teach but on the higher transcendental things like the intimate rasa's available with Krsna the teachings are astoundingly beautiful. Unfortunately I am not at a level where I can really take advantage of such teaching yet but the future looks bright as long as I can stay free of sectarianism and party spirit. First I need to learn to appreciate the presence of the Lord within myself and others from the aomedba to the sinner and the saint and build from there. Wars over gurus will only cripple me more than I already am and perhaps even stop all progress so I'm electing to hang loose on that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted March 28, 2008 Report Share Posted March 28, 2008 We just have to be sincere, honest, we need to listen to our heart and quit fooling ourselves into believing in things that clearly do not make much sense, like a retired sannyasi. "Retired sannyasi". LOL Now there is one for ya. Sannyasa means one is dead to civil society...dead to material life. So a retired sannyasi can only mean one has once again become alive to civil society and material life in other words fallen from sannyasi to vantasi. I am real skeptical about all this sannyasa anyway. It was a nice try here in the west but it just hasn't worked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AncientMariner Posted March 28, 2008 Report Share Posted March 28, 2008 I think he just refers to what is going on among devotees in general who discuss this issue. Looks like the most vocal and "uncompromising" guru debaters have not yet ruined this thread. I gotta admit I used to view you as one of the most vocal and "uncomprising" guru debaters even though I have always admired your level of intelligence in Vedic knowledge. Lately you seem to be less hardcore to me and more open minded and I have enjoyed reading your posts more because I sense you really sincerely are wishing the best for the Krishna Consciousness Movement instead of just defending some guru camp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted March 28, 2008 Report Share Posted March 28, 2008 "Retired sannyasi". LOL Now there is one for ya. Sannyasa means one is dead to civil society...dead to material life. So a retired sannyasi can only mean one has once again become alive to civil society and material life in other words fallen from sannyasi to vantasi. I am real skeptical about all this sannyasa anyway. It was a nice try here in the west but it just hasn't worked. Yes, that is another case of fooling ourselves. Both in the case of "retired sannyasis" or sannyasa in general. People were clamoring to become gurus and sannyasis not because they were ready for it, but because it made them into real stars in our society and allowed them to live a very comfortable and fun life. This is how it was from the very beginning. "Big, big monkey, big, big belly... Ceylon jumping... melancholy" Prabhupada used to say about them. He tried to use the carrot of subtle sex life (fame, profit, distinction) to motivate these people into doing big things for Krsna. Sometimes it worked, but the cost to the movement was terrible and we are still paying for that initial jolt of energy that started this movement all over the world. Now, however, is a different phase: no more fake stuff! No more fake renunciates, no more fake gurus, no more bogus philosophy, no more myths, no more fairytales. It is time to face the FACTS and reality about ourselves. Devotees are bitter because they were conned and cheated into accepting fake gold as the real thing. Now it is time to show them where the real gold is and what it takes to get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted March 28, 2008 Report Share Posted March 28, 2008 I gotta admit I used to view you as one of the most vocal and "uncomprising" guru debaters even though I have always admired your level of intelligence in Vedic knowledge. Lately you seem to be less hardcore to me and more open minded and I have enjoyed reading your posts more because I sense you really sincerely are wishing the best for the Krishna Consciousness Movement instead of just defending some guru camp. Thank you for this kind asessment, prabhu. Maybe I am indeed maturing. Maybe we all are. Krsna is very kind and if we are sincere he helps us to see the way. It is not all hopeless - quite the opposite. I have the greatest hope for our movement and for all sincere souls who took part in it. We are all very, very fortunate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhaktajan Posted March 28, 2008 Report Share Posted March 28, 2008 Originally Posted by Kulapavana: "Now it is time to show them where the real gold is and what it takes to get it." Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Show me! Just a little bit would do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted March 28, 2008 Report Share Posted March 28, 2008 Show me! Show me! Show me! Just a little bit would do. There is gold in them hills, boy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bhaktajan Posted March 28, 2008 Report Share Posted March 28, 2008 There is gold in them hills, boy! Dear Kulapavana Prabhu-ji, Thank you for the photo of your self. It is most generous of you to share it. I shall indeed keep a copy for my screen saver. But, I meant that you show me some amrita (of your choosing). It is one of the 9 processes of Devotional Service so I do appreciate the gift of a photo of you but I do desire to get some sastric mercy from you some real gold, where it is and what it takes to get it. starving for amrit, Bhaktajan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suchandra Posted March 29, 2008 Report Share Posted March 29, 2008 Next we willhave retired brahmacaris. That out to be a riot. I a myself am trying to figure out how to be a retired fringey but I am having a hard time getting my mind around it. Oh well, I'll just go see a movie and see if I can fiqure it out later. Yo Hing! :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D A Fifth Category of Devotees BY: JAGANNATHA MISHRA DAS Mar 28, CANARY ISLANDS (SUN) — In relation to the article by Kula Pavana Prabhu, " The Guru Debate Within our Movement ", there is a fifth category of devotees nowadays: The ones that see the impeding problems in ISKCON but are not ritviks, not GBC yesmen, nor Gaudiya Math switchers. They are outside and inside ISKCON structure. This fifth group is one that believes in ISKCON as Srila Prabhupada taught without so many changes, corporate-style meetings and seminars, abandon of the books, harinam and direct preaching in general, conscious depopulation of temples, and progressive hinduization model. They are loyal to ISKCON, the internal ISKCON, but not to the corporate GBC ISKCON trying to become a religion, for want of a better choice in their minds. These devotees are non-partisans of a group, they do not hold particular grudges making them biased or have a hidden agenda, but to please Srila Prabhupada and wish ISKCON would be what it is meant to be, with some failures amongst huge successes, not some success among constant debacles. Seems like this group has not yet been able to organize themselves, but if they could, they would revolutionize the face of ISKCON, not destroying or going against the GBC for the sake of it, but denouncing the big mistakes for the benefit of all and doing themselves the right thing. The leaders that have been there for so many years have shown that they failed. Better to give new blood to the GBC by starting to implement the DOM elections, for a more sanitized and logical management system. We need a revolution from the grassroots, every devotee asking for a more simple and straightforward answer to the problems and making the leaders answerable for what they do. If the Temple Presidents are dynamic and independent preachers, then the GBC can become truly powerful. Stop making excuses to change step-by-step what Srila Prabhupada gave us. Stop now listening to corporate style "devotees". Leave them to themselves and see if they can make even a living teaching that in the outside world. If we can go back to the empowerment of Temple President and temple members, as Srila Prabhupada intended and just do the simple program, we can become a bright, self-effulgent spiritual movement as we are meant to be, and we the preachers can again announce with pride that we belong to the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. If someone is interested in organizing such a thing, please contact me at jaganat@mail.com . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CCC Posted March 30, 2008 Report Share Posted March 30, 2008 One camp -- those aligned with the GBC - usually presents a patronizing attitude of "we know better", mixed with a long history of withholding relevant information and frequent outright misrepresentation of the facts (read: telling lies), combined with habitual covering-up of serious abuses of power and substandard behavior of ISKCON gurus. They think that are serving Srila Prabhupada. they are inside the fire The ritvik camp "sins" are personified by the "Final Order thumpers" who basically call anybody involved in the current ISKCON power system a crook, traitor, liar and pretender. They unabashedly build great sand castles on single words or single sentences attributed to their guru. These are the two main camps. They are serving Srila Prabhupada, maybe is not perfect but SP is in the center and want to make something. they are trying to extinguish the fire on Iskcon The third camp consists of ex- ISKCON devotees who took shelter of Gaudiya Vaishnavas from post-Gaudiya Matha organizations or those representing traditional Gaudiya parivars. This camp often looks with complete disdain at the first two groups, considering both of them to be apa-sampradayas of the worst sort. Some of them say that are serving Srila Prabhupada and now are gurus, but for some reason their disciples hardly know Srila Prabhupada, hardly they talk about them, hardly they follow the rules and regulation given by SP, hardly they read the SP Books and chant rounds they are not devotees they are hippie-votes: Prabhu! take it easy just see the essence, not the form, the form has no meaning!... It seems that they have a karma with their disciples, weak vaishnava etiquette. They flee from the fire and never return for help. Also they say that is apasidhanta the ritvik way, why? is it because they want adoration, fame, disciples? Only God Knows Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted March 30, 2008 Report Share Posted March 30, 2008 The third camp consists of ex- ISKCON devotees who took shelter of Gaudiya Vaishnavas from post-Gaudiya Matha organizations or those representing traditional Gaudiya parivars. This camp often looks with complete disdain at the first two groups, considering both of them to be apa-sampradayas of the worst sort. Some of them say that are serving Srila Prabhupada and now are gurus, but for some reason their disciples hardly know Srila Prabhupada, hardly they talk about them, hardly they follow the rules and regulation given by SP, hardly they read the SP Books and chant rounds they are not devotees they are hippie-votes: Prabhu! take it easy just see the essence, not the form, the form has no meaning!... It seems that they have a karma with their disciples, weak vaishnava etiquette. They flee from the fire and never return for help. Also they say that is apasidhanta the ritvik way, why? is it because they want adoration, fame, disciples? Only God Knows What good is your opinion when you post unauthorized nonsense like this: Lord Jesus Will Come, ...Enter to my signature and you will see what will happen. Here in south america there is a new scriptures revealed by God, soon the whole world will know this. __________________ www.cienciaceleste.org.pe Did you ask any advanced Gaudiya Vaisnava sadhu about this or are you really you own guru? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vedesu Posted March 30, 2008 Report Share Posted March 30, 2008 They flee from the fire and never return for help. Wheel of Fortune, Sally Ride, heavy metal, suicide Foreign debts, homeless Vets, AIDS, Crack, Bernie Goetz Hypodermics on the shores, China's under martial law Rock and Roller cola wars, I can't take it anymore We didn't start the fire It was always burning since the world's been turning. We didn't start the fire But when we are gone It will still burn on, and on, and on, and on... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suchandra Posted March 30, 2008 Report Share Posted March 30, 2008 We didn't start the fire It was always burning since the world's been turning. We didn't start the fire But when we are gone It will still burn on, and on, and on, and on... Good point, Ray says something very similiar, "as there are enough naive people to be led, there will be corrupt authorities to lead them." And this will go on, and on, and on, and on... Real Decisions in an Artificial System BY: RAY LANTHIER Mar 29, TORONTO, CANADA (SUN) — Yes, the GBC make the ‘real’ decisions as does everybody. The problem is that they have the power to enforce them on an acquiescent community of devotees. There was no coup, no military revolution. The GBC simply took over and made claims for themselves, playing at being authorities AND THEY WERE ACCEPTED. Nobody is forced to follow the dictates of the GBC. One can opt out of the current ISKCON Hindu church. As long as there are enough naive people to be led, there will be corrupt authorities to lead them. What needs to happen is a ‘foot dissension’, an institution-wide walk out. But that needs, ironically, a raising of consciousness so that members can actually use their intelligence long enough to hear God in their heart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrahma Posted March 30, 2008 Report Share Posted March 30, 2008 Good point, Ray says something very similiar, "as there are enough naive people to be led, there will be corrupt authorities to lead them."And this will go on, and on, and on, and on... Real Decisions in an Artificial System BY: RAY LANTHIER Mar 29, TORONTO, CANADA (SUN) — Yes, the GBC make the ‘real’ decisions as does everybody. The problem is that they have the power to enforce them on an acquiescent community of devotees. There was no coup, no military revolution. The GBC simply took over and made claims for themselves, playing at being authorities AND THEY WERE ACCEPTED. Nobody is forced to follow the dictates of the GBC. One can opt out of the current ISKCON Hindu church. As long as there are enough naive people to be led, there will be corrupt authorities to lead them. What needs to happen is a ‘foot dissension’, an institution-wide walk out. But that needs, ironically, a raising of consciousness so that members can actually use their intelligence long enough to hear God in their heart. How fortunate for leaders that men do not think Adolf Hitler Gee Ray sure sounds like me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted March 30, 2008 Report Share Posted March 30, 2008 How fortunate for the GBCs who think like Adolf Hitler that the followers are so naiive! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted March 30, 2008 Report Share Posted March 30, 2008 The way I see it, there are three kinds of devotees in the West the good, the bad and the ugly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrahma Posted March 30, 2008 Report Share Posted March 30, 2008 How fortunate for the leaders that people do not think. - Adolf Hitler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted March 30, 2008 Report Share Posted March 30, 2008 BY: RAY LANTHIER Mar 29, TORONTO, CANADA (SUN) — Yes, the GBC make the ‘real’ decisions as does everybody. The problem is that they have the power to enforce them on an acquiescent community of devotees. There was no coup, no military revolution. The GBC simply took over and made claims for themselves, playing at being authorities AND THEY WERE ACCEPTED. Nobody is forced to follow the dictates of the GBC. One can opt out of the current ISKCON Hindu church. As long as there are enough naive people to be led, there will be corrupt authorities to lead them. What needs to happen is a ‘foot dissension’, an institution-wide walk out. But that needs, ironically, a raising of consciousness so that members can actually use their intelligence long enough to hear God in their heart. Yes voting wth one's feet is the only way to stop these cronnies and their game. They will never willing give up their power posts and reform. They are deeply attached to playing church. The important thing is of course that when people walk away they actually walk towards a higher reality and not just away from the GBC. As Ray said, "But that needs, ironically, a raising of consciousness so that members can actually use their intelligence long enough to hear God in their heart." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CCC Posted March 30, 2008 Report Share Posted March 30, 2008 What good is your opinion when you post unauthorized nonsense like this: __________________ www.cienciaceleste.org.pe Did you ask any advanced Gaudiya Vaisnava sadhu about this or are you really you own guru? The Lord himself said to me with his own words. I don't need another source for corroboration. First you have never read that scripture so don't be insolent making such claims. First read the almost 4.000 scrolls and then give your opinion, not before. How to read the scrolls: comma (,)= Pause. semicolon(=End of an idea. PROPHECY <small> A PROPHECY DICTATED THROUGH LIVING TELEPATHY, BY THE DIVINE FATHER JEHOVAH; EXTRACTED FROM THE SCROLLS OF THE LAMB OF GOD; THIS DIVINE PROPHECY WAS DICTATED 20 YEARS AGO.-</small> The spirits of North America who requested God the test of life, asked him to be judged by the elements, within the very same laws of life; for they did not have the slightest idea of what the sensation of being judged by the elements of a planet of trial, which they did not know was; for when God is requested, forms of life not being met, such a request is made, starting with the greatest innocence, that the mind can conceive; being so that all the sensations that each one has within his individuality, the spirit did not know them; for this reason the divine Gospel of God says: All spirit is tested out in its own sensactions, by God; and it is also mentioned: The test of life.- The spirits of North America, did not undergo great damage in World War II, by means of men, for the damage issued from men, had not been requested to God; they requested the damaging of the elements, if they, would happen to transgress the divine Law of God; and they transgressed it; for at getting their perfection, they did it on the basis of unequal laws; that unequal is not of God’s liking; for that unequal never reaches the true felicity; that unequal perpetuates injustice and unhappiness; that unequal causes a strange temporary happiness, and rests in the injustice suffered by millions of beings; trying to conquer felicity for all, without renouncing to that unequal, is merely a chimera; the irrefutable fact of hundreds of centuries, spent wastefully on unequal laws shows it; the creators of happiness based on unequal laws, could have at their disposal millions of years ahead, and never more would they reach perfect felicity for all; the creators of a strange system of life, based on that unequal, are to wait for dreadful moments; for in them, the divine Judgment of the elements will be fulfilled; first cold, then water and lastly fire; in the judgment of water, the oceans will overflow, flooding three fourths of North America; the fire of the sun, will burn their lands and there will be no sign of drinking water; for everything will evaporate; the elements will destroy in a few minutes, what cost years and centuries of work; the economical power of North America, will be cut down in a 70%; it is for this reason that it was written in the divine Gospel of God: seventy times a thousand; this divine parable of God, meant a strange well-being obtained in numerical unbalance; for number 7 does not have an average in equality; the halves of 7, are uneven; one has more, and the other less; 1,000 represented the forthcoming of a just Doctrine; for it is a number of power; a new power is born out of the strange psychology of unequality; and it means that all the nations which were forced to live in that unequal, wake up and make up one only nation; these nations succeed in getting rid of that unbalanced and create that balanced; they get their independency from the old system of unequal laws; when the spirits of North America, requested God, to be judged by the elements, they made a mad-men like request; since the elements are numberless and have no limits; on the contrary men’s punishment, against men, is limited; the damages caused by a war among men, is soon mended; it is within human limits; the experience left by World War II, showed it; the collapse of North America as a world power, will be through poverty; and this poverty will be so immense, that her inhabitants will beg even for food; and in them it is fulfilled, what in the divine Gospel of God, was written: for your deeds will you be judged; the North American work, left a balance of millions of poor people, of all categories; that were partly forced to that; since the North American beast, took itself the strange libertinism of using the force, to impose her laws, and the test of life consisted, in not being tempted in the use of the force; for being God all-love, everyone without any exception, had requested from him laws of love; as the divine Final Judgment, requested to God by the humanity, included all imaginable things, those who were tempted in using the force, during the test of life, will be made to fall by the force; the force of the elements, destroys them; had they sowed love, they would have received love.- On March 18 th 1977 <!--mstheme--> Alpha and Omega Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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