rohini108 Posted March 30, 2008 Report Share Posted March 30, 2008 The one thing I really hate is information that is incorrect. Especially when it is directed at religion; especially when it involved wrong comparisons between Christianity and "Hinduism." Below are 4 key points that are going to be used in a church sermon, taken off a pastor's blog. I want to make an appropriate comment. But first I am going to ask for some help here. Without writing a book, would you please give me your brief comments for each topic. I will watch the replies here and late assemble them into a final reply that I will post as a comment on his blog. Thank you so much. rsd Sermon Discussion Questions 1. “How valuable is an individual?” Hinduism: The individual finds his/her value in two areas (1) atman is part of Brahman and (2) the concept of Dharma. The individual finds great worth in being part of everything. As religious scholar Huston Smith noted, when we see that our current life is simply part of many, many lives of our own and part of the great reality we put less significance on the moment. Dharma is living out your role. This is how the cast system developed in India. It has its benefits–it encourages one to be content in this life. Of course, the down side is that this very idea keeps people from ever seeking more in this life, struggling to accumulate Karma. Jesus: “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son.” God loves each person infinitely and because of this sent Jesus into the world to reunite humanity with her Creator. Jesus said, “I have come to give my life as a ransom to save the world.” Jesus goes out of his way to speak to the Samaritan woman at the well. This story is a microcosm of Jesus’ greater ministry. Jesus healed the sick. Loved the poor. He forgave prostitutes. He values women and children in a society where they had no value. 2. “What makes me significant, unique, and worthy?” Hinduism: Again, concepts like significance, uniqueness, and worth are relative in Hindu thought. It is counter narcissism. We can only live in our current Dharma, accumulate Karma, and work out of Samsara toward moskha. The better a person you are the closer you are to realizing self is secondary to the Path of Renunciation–the way of becoming one with everything. Basically, you try to lose your uniqueness and become one with Brahman, the impersonal force of God. Jesus: Jesus told a story about one sheep being lost out of a crowd of ninety-nine. Jesus said that the shepherd went looking for the one–because that one sheep was that valuable. The shepherd of course represents God who Jesus himself represents. Since Christianity is more relational when speaking of God, this means God seeks to have a relationship with every single person. Even when we reject him, the Apostle Paul says, he first loved us in the state of Godlessness. Jesus would say, “What makes you significant and unique and worthy is my love.” You are significant because I am willing to die for you. You are unique because I created you. You are worthy because I have revalued you with my blood.” 3. What is reality? Hinduism: Brahman is reality. We are all part of Brahman. That is the key. When you realize this truth you become less self-centered and begin to find your greater self that fills all. You are one with everything and everything is one with you. We are living a trance-like existence, the world we live in is not real, what is real is when you lose your self and identify with Brahman. Jesus: In the Jewish worldview that Jesus was in the opening line of Genesis says it all, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth”. God existed. Hinduism agrees with the pre-Creation reality. God was all there was. But the Jewish-Christian story diverts at this point when it says God made something other than himself and called it good–then added humanity and called it “very good”. 4. “Why do I exist?” Hinduism: I am sure different Hindu thinkers and philosophers have answered this question a million different ways over the years. Huston Smith says the Hinduism says we all really want being, knowledge, and joy. When we begin to let go of our self over a period of several lives and realize we are one with all we find out greater being, we come to knowledge of how reality works, and we are free of the shallow impulses of day to day life that wears so many down. This is accomplished through one of the four yoga paths. Christ: Humanity is the glory of God. Genesis shows it. Paul talks about it in Romans and Colossians. One time a sick person was brought before Jesus and Jesus was asked if it was his pre-birth sins or his parents sins that caused him to be as he was. Jesus said it was neither–it was so that God could be glorified. Christ says our purpose for existence was to be loved and give love. We were created affectionately by God to enjoy creation and life. We were created for fellowship with God. We were created for relationships with others. We were created as the crowning piece to God’s living art. Key Phrases and Terms atman- a term referring to the “true” self. Similar to the idea some Christians have of the soul. Bhagvad Gita- “The most popular scripture in contemporary Hinduism…[that] popularizes the teachings of the earlier more philosophical Upanishads by describing three different paths to God: the discipline of devotion (bhakti yoga), action (karma yoga), and knowledge jnana yoga (Prothero, 162).” Brahman- “In Hindu thought brahman (neuter gender) is the abstract, impersonal Absolute. The Absolute is said to be nirguna (beyond-quality), pure, eternal. When characterized with qualities, the ‘qualified brahman’ (saguna brahman) becomes the imminant cause of the universe (Dictionary of Religions, 80). Dharma- This concept covers “ideas of cosmic, natural, and social order. It is the nearest equivalent to the Western concept of ‘religion’, thought without the implied distinction between sacred and secular areas of life (Dictionary of Religions, 135).” karma- “…refers both to an action and its consequences, but the term connotes more broadly the ethical law of cause and effect the drives samsara…According to this law, which like gravity operates without divine intervention, positive consequences follow from good actions and negative consequences from bad actions–either in this lifetime or in a future incarnation (Prothero, 196).” Mahadevas- These are the “great gods” of Hinduism. Much like the concept of the Trinity this triune god (Trimurti) is represented by Brahma the creator, Vishnu the preserver, and Shiva the destroyer. moksha- ” ‘Setting free’, ‘liberation’, generally seen as the goal of the spiritual life in the Indian religions: release from Samsara, the cycle of death and rebirth (Dictionary of Religions, 320). Samsara- the cycle of death and rebirth.Yogas- The four paths are known as yoga. (1) Inana yoga is the way of knowledge. It is the path for “thinking people”. This consist of learning, thinking, and eventually beginning to understand oneself as “spirit”. (2) Bhakti yoga is the path of love. (3) The karma yoga is the path of work. This path places a high value on duty to society. (4) Raja yoga “is the way to God through psychophysical experiments” (Smith, 26-50). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrahma Posted March 30, 2008 Report Share Posted March 30, 2008 There are significant and I believe irreconcilable differences between Christianity and what you call "Hinduism" which BTW is a foreign invention and not Vedic. It suggests that Vendanta is a religion which it is not. Actually neither are the teachings of Jesus intended to form a religious sect. I don't 'get' the so-called Hindu theology. It is other-wordly, aloof and highly ritualized. It gives very detailed formulas and prescriptions for accessing the spiritual, as though there were material mechanisms for attaining the godhead. The sharp distinctions it makes between matter and spiritual are simultaneously blurred by concepts of a god-like guru , a spirit-human, a self-realized sage and the like. In the latter instance there are individuals whom we are expected to identify with the Deity. Yet all individuals are supposed to share in that identity, but need to jump through these little hoops and pious practices to attain it. Very confusing. It is complication on top of complication, mechanism on top of mechanism. Jesus showed the way of Love and worship in Spirit and Truth. It is the way of pure Simplicity. No hoops to jump, no complicated rituals, no mechanism to enmesh and stress us impossibly to gain the audience of a coldly aloof Deity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted March 30, 2008 Report Share Posted March 30, 2008 Jesus showed the way of Love and worship in Spirit and Truth. It is the way of pure Simplicity. No hoops to jump, no complicated rituals, no mechanism to enmesh and stress us impossibly to gain the audience of a coldly aloof Deity. cbrahma shows his cards. Either he has converted or reconverted to Protestant Christianity, clearly not Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy. But I have some questions for you, cbrahma: are you born again? IOW do you really accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior? Do you believe on the blood of the lamb? ...that Jesus died for your sins? If you don't then you are not really saved brother; then get down on your knees with me brother and accept the blood of the lamb right now and then continue your ministry to convert the evil Hindu and Hare Krishna pagans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrahma Posted March 30, 2008 Report Share Posted March 30, 2008 "Hindu/India" (derived from the word "Sindhu" in present day Pakistan --- by the way, the people of Sindhu continue to call themselves "Sindhis" and not "Hindus/Indians") was exclusively the foreign geographic term for Indus Valley (Pakistan region) in ancient times. It had nothing to do with the religion of Hinduism nor the region of present day India. This is proven in the Achaemenian inscriptions at Persepolis and Greek texts like those of Herodotus. It was many centuries later that the term "Hind/India" was used by some foreigners to further encompass much of South Asia, again as a geographic term having no religious or national meaning. The broadening of this term's usage was no different than how the word "Farangi" (derived from the word "Franks/France") became the term for all Europeans used by Middle Easterners (and South Asians) during the Middle Ages due to French interaction (Crusaders) with them. Indus Valley is located at the entering point (from west) into South Asia, thus its geographic term was later used by a few foreign visitors and invaders for the whole region. However, others used 'Hind' for present day north India and 'Sindh' for present day Pakistan. The bottomline is that the term/word "Hind/Hindu/India" was foreign (for their own references), and had no religious or national meaning. It was no different than how the words "Africa" and "America" are used --- i.e. foreign geographic terms encompassing many different peoples and religions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrahma Posted March 30, 2008 Report Share Posted March 30, 2008 The reason I don't reply to Beggar, isn't because I agree or don't know what to say, but because he is on my ignore list. In this case silence is not consent. I have better things to do than take part in a childish flame war which is all his guru-inspired learning has brought him to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beggar Posted March 30, 2008 Report Share Posted March 30, 2008 The real reason cbrahma doesn't reply is that he does not want to acknowledge that some off us see his anti-Vedic, Protestant crusade. If he can maintain his cover of feigned objectivity then he can do as much damage as possible to those who have faith in the principle of Sri Guru and His Grace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theist Posted March 30, 2008 Report Share Posted March 30, 2008 Hijacking another thread 'eh beggar. Address yourself to the thread starter's questions for a change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pankaja_Dasa Posted March 30, 2008 Report Share Posted March 30, 2008 What a boring thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rohini108 Posted March 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2008 What a boring thread. Sorry, kind of gone in a direction I never intended. rsd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xexon Posted March 30, 2008 Report Share Posted March 30, 2008 When you get into the area of comparing one belief against another, you are allowing the mind to wander off the path and go chase after something worldly. The danger of generating negative karma is high when decisions are clouded by emotion such as anger. As a seeker, you must ask if this is in your best interest. Seek, but emotions need to be left outside the temple door. x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pankaja_Dasa Posted March 30, 2008 Report Share Posted March 30, 2008 I think he read some impesonal stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokeshvara Posted March 30, 2008 Report Share Posted March 30, 2008 I am not sure there will be an effective way to address the issues with the pastor because unless he or she is willing to dialogue about the issue, they will not listen to what is said. i would point out though to this person that they are presenting a very biased and inaccurate image of sanatana dharma. "hinduism" as he calls it is incredibly diverse and the philosophy he is presenting is one of many different understandings. he is in a way building a straw man with his presentation. to cbrahma- krishna gave a straight forward path to salvation, not only jesus. blessings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rohini108 Posted March 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2008 I am not sure there will be an effective way to address the issues with the pastor because unless he or she is willing to dialogue about the issue, they will not listen to what is said. i would point out though to this person that they are presenting a very biased and inaccurate image of sanatana dharma. "hinduism" as he calls it is incredibly diverse and the philosophy he is presenting is one of many different understandings. he is in a way building a straw man with his presentation. to cbrahma- krishna gave a straight forward path to salvation, not only jesus. blessings Thank you. rsd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inedible Posted March 30, 2008 Report Share Posted March 30, 2008 1. “How valuable is an individual?” To whom? Even the most depressed people tend to value their own lives, no matter what they may say on the subject. 2. “What makes me significant, unique, and worthy?” This is subjective, too. It is the ability to say "I" as opposed to "you" or "it". From my point of view I mean me when I say "I". 3. What is reality? Perception is reality. What you perceive is real to you even if no one else shares in experiencing your perception. 4. “Why do I exist?” If you didn't exist you couldn't ask this question. You are looking for a reason why you were brought into existence. If you believe in God you probably believe that God did it to you intentionally and you want to hear someone else say it also and maybe that God loves you and has a plan for you. The trouble with that is that it misses the point. You do exist and it is up to you to find a reason to continue to exist. As they say, if you have lemons you should squeeze them for juice and add sugar and water. If you don't have sugar and water, you can slice them and arrange them in a decorative way. If you don't have a knife, peel the lemons and arrange the slices. If you don't want to ruin your fingernails peeling lemons, get someone else to do it for you or maybe sell the lemons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bija Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 Hi Rohini, in my humble opinion it may take a very great soul to find a deep felt harmony in this world of difference and diversity. There are so many levels of conscious awareness and mind states, and various approaches to finding harmony. Heart felt humility and respect for others is a key I would cultivate. In the Absolute sense all things exist within God, if we can find that quality and space within our own heart I feel we would be on the path to harmony. Maybe finding space to allow this Pastor to voice his mental constructs would be a good thing. That's what I would do anyway. Some will listen to him and follow him, and some will use discernment and analyse his words. Whatever those who listen to him choose to do, it will be a part of their integral journey back to God, and maybe an essential stepping stone for them on thier path to self discovery and self awareness. y.s. Nava. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rohini108 Posted March 31, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 Dear Nava, Your words read like they are coming from an old friend. Thank you. rsd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrahma Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 krishna gave a straight forward path to salvation, not only jesus What was it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bija Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 Sri Krsna Caitanya gave a simple approach cbrahma. An intimate relationship with the Holy Name of God. What is that intimacy? How close can we reciprocate with that Name. These are very deep secrets of that heart dear friend. Maybe if we can be very simple and accept the Holy Name for what it is, we may feel its personality, its gentleness, its unassuming nature. Surely God is not assuming and arrogant in essence. Such is the love like your Lord Jesus taught. Meek like a lamb - could the Holy Name also be such. Is such intimacy possible in God's Holy Name? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrahma Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 Sri Krsna Caitanya gave a simple approach cbrahma. An intimate relationship with the Holy Name of God. What is that intimacy? How close can we reciprocate with that Name. These are very deep secrets of that heart dear friend. Maybe if we can be very simple and accept the Holy Name for what it is, we may feel its personality, its gentleness, its unassuming nature. Surely God is not assuming and arrogant in essence. Such is the love like your Lord Jesus taught. Meek like a lamb - could the Holy Name also be such. Is such intimacy possible in God's Holy Name? Thank you for your sweet response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bija Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 thx:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suchandra Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 What a boring thread. I find this is a highly important thread - didnt read it yet since the topic headline seemed meaningless. 1. “How valuable is an individual?” 2. “What makes me significant, unique, and worthy?” 3. What is reality? 4. “Why do I exist?” These four questions might not of immense concern for our enlightened Vaishnavas of this forum but for our present godless, demoniac global governments - how to insinuate all those lovely nice things called sinful kali-yuga content to more and more subdue the citizens into hellish condition. In other words, since our political leaders consider human beings as soulless biological life they consider only one thing, how to keep their citizens nicely in material illusion and go to hell. As soon you agree to one demoniac component they immediately up to ante the next. Politicians introducing as a matter of course newly invented machines for euthanasia, "advanced" methods for easy abortion, area-wide guaranteed distribution of heavy drugs, 24h pornography channel on free tv to settle the youth into the understanding that you don't need family when you have pornography, leading thousands of young men to be killed in fake wars like Iraq, introducing more and more "advanced" contraceptive methods. Subsidizing with tax to increase addictive behavior by modifying coffee, tobacco, tea, alcohol. The list how even children are purposefully induced to sinful life is based upon these four points - no way, you are not an immortal soul made in the image of God but the same biological accident, casuality like insects, vermins, bugs, bacillus. However, seems like gradually people are waking up how they are treated by their demoniac leaders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bija Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 1. “How valuable is an individual?” Very valuable! 2. “What makes me significant, unique, and worthy?” Your existence! 3. What is reality? Your existence in relation to God! 4. “Why do I exist?” For relationship with God! 5. What is God? .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pretender Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 If you "save" me, can you spend me? Maybe Jesus saves, but Moses invests. I like what what the non-"Hindu" Sir George Bernard Shaw said:"The last Christian died two thousand years ago." Or how about Woody Allen: "If Christ could see what people were doing in his name, he'd never stop throwing up!" Also, Christ wasn't a Christian, just as Buddha wasn't a Buddhist. "Hinduism?" I thought we were supposed to pursue the teachings of Jaiva-dharma, the eternal religion of all souls forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulapavana Posted March 31, 2008 Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 The one thing I really hate is information that is incorrect. Especially when it is directed at religion; especially when it involved wrong comparisons between Christianity and "Hinduism." Rohini-ji, just let it go... There is no end to such comparisons and inter-religious discussions. Just embrace the tradition of your choice and run with it. There are thousands of varieties of each religion and ultimately such debates can't even scratch the surface of what really takes place here. Too many variables. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rohini108 Posted March 31, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2008 Rohini-ji, just let it go... There is no end to such comparisons and inter-religious discussions. Just embrace the tradition of your choice and run with it. There are thousands of varieties of each religion and ultimately such debates can't even scratch the surface of what really takes place here. Too many variables. Dear Kulapavana, Thank you for you words of wisdom. Not often, but every now and then I will have a nice conversation with a Christian. Recently two brothers attended one of my small gatherings. One is a Hare Krishna priest, the other a Catholic priest. He came twice and we all spent a wonderful time together. Again, thank you for your concern. All glories to the Holy Names of Sri Krsna and His devotees. rsd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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